![\"This flabby, fat, flatulent looking Scion...\" Oh wait -- John Norton was talking about Queen Victoria, not a Toyota.](https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/xb.jpg "\\"This flabby, fat, flatulent looking Scion...\\" Oh wait -- John Norton was talking about Queen Victoria, not a Toyota.")
With great size comes great stupidity. General Motors' fall from grace– from world's largest and most profitable company to bailout bait– illustrates the point perfectly. And while it's about thirty years too early to suggest that GM's replacement will fall victim to the same size-related atrophy, there are already hints that the profits powerhouse known as Toyota is capable of massive miscalculations. I speak here not of the full-size Tundra pickup, but of Scion, the brand that should have never made it out of a focus group.
In June, after a staggering three month rise, Scion sales suddenly slipped by 5.3 percent (11,870 units sold). This despite offering two new models: the redesigned xB (down 10.9 percent) and the all-new xD (replaces the xA). While ToMoCo's "youth brand" is up eight percent on the year, the timing of its surge and the overall trend indicates a dead cat bounce, due to rising gas prices. Prior to this uptick, from last September through January, Scion's sales declined for 17 straight months.
Searching for clues to Scion's struggle, their not-so-entirely-wonderful products may have a little something to do with it. The super-sized gangsta xB is thirstier and way uglier than the car it replaces. The xD is only marginally more exciting than the now-extinct xA (a.k.a. fish-faced Echo)– and that's saying something (or, perhaps, nothing). The tC has gone from a fixer-upper to a blot of the automotive landscape, dragging Scion down with a 36.2 percent drop in June (off 29.3 percent year-to-date).
Speaking to Automotive News, Scion's manager of sales and promotions addressed the brand's struggle and talked about… sales and promotion. "We have to refresh our message," Jeri Yoshizu asserts. "And move our picture to the new 18- to 24-year-olds." In other words, the buzz within Toyota is that Scion's problem is that it's not cool with the kids anymore; clever marketing can sort that shit out.
That's worrying stuff. You'd think that Toyota, of all automobile manufacturers, would know that great advertising starts with great products. And that great products transcend demographics, or, if you prefer, find their own fans. But then Scion has always been an ass-backwards endeavor: a brand born of marketing aspirations and birthed via stylized badge-engineering, rather than formed in the crucible of a relentless pursuit of engineering excellence.
Clearly, remarkably, Toyota has not yet learned its lesson on this one. Just as Scion's supposed target market is a moving target, so is the automaker's justification for prolonging Scion's time on this earth. Jack Hollis, the brand's vice president, tells AN that his measure of Scion's success is "not sales numbers but whether Scion is luring new, young customers to Toyota." If so… they're fucked. The number of 18- to 34-year-olds shopping the brand has declined sharply.
Perhaps Hollis should have a word with his boss. On its fifth anniversary, ToMoCo Prez frames Scion's core mission without referring to its intended buyers' age. "The original Scion goal was all about transparency and reducing time to purchase cars and vehicle personalization," Jim Lenz told AN. "And none of that has changed. Scion still remains relevant today."
"How do we expand without making Scion into a traditional car company?" Hollis asks, relevantly. "Experimenting with an automotive brand is tricky in a down market because it magnifies the risk. But if you don't try anything, then you are just the same as the entire industry."
In other words, being different for difference sake is Scion's raison d'etre. Of course, anyone who's spent time inside a Scion xB or xD could take one look at the odd instrumentation and reach the same conclusion. Whether or not Scion's products fit the "quirky is cool" remit– in the metal or consumer's gray matter– it's not exactly a secure footing for a car brand.
Just as importantly, Hollis' query contains the bizarre and grandiose suggestion that Scion is a car company, not an automotive brand. The fact that Scion "dealers" live within Toyota showrooms ought to indicate that Scion is an extension of the Toyota brand; nothing more, nothing less. And a deeply misguided one, in the GM product overlap sense of the word. However you target them, however you personalize them, Scions compete with Toyota products both new and used in the same dealership.
Toyota's Lexus brand made perfect sense: Toyota reliability, distinct upmarket branding, big fat margins. Scion is a non-starter. At best, it can get people to buy Toyota's who wouldn't normally buy a Toyota– and won't even after they do (if you know what I mean). Alternatively, Toyota selling Scions is like those WASPs who wear lime green trousers at the golf course club house just to show they're not really as boring as everyone (including themselves) knows they really are.
If Toyota kills Scion, we'll know they're not General Motors. If ToMoCo persists in this, we'll know that they could well be doomed to repeat GM's history.
Scion seemed like a good idea at the time, but i think people didn’t like the idea of spending another grand on Scion accessories, to make their car look like the commercials.
Scion is Toyota’s Saturn. Thankfully they aren’t stand alone dealers
Yeah, the Scion thing is pretty goofy.
Honestly, how many 18-24 year old people are buying new cars anyway? For the kind of people who want a hip little compact, that’s the Ramen noodles & Natty Lite phase of life. They aren’t likely to be able to buy a new car in the first place, certainly not without GM’s patented Got a Pulse? financing. Am I the only guy who spent that time of my life mostly broke?
For a car aimed at 18-24 year olds with parents who can afford to send the kid to college AND are willing & able to buy them a brand spanking new car at the same time, maybe Scion is doing pretty well. But that is a hell of a niche. I live in a university town and you do see a lot of them around here.
Robert, Scion doesn`t do badge engineering. badge engineering is using the same exterior not underpinnings. Scion doesn`t share a-pillars, windshields ,gas cap configuration or front door lines with Toyota products. Robert, you have to understand that japanese have this little fetish born out of cramped Tokyo city that space is everything, and if you look in japanese catalogues, half of offerings are weird looking scion alikes. They save space and Toyota experiments with this boxyness in USA. And you dare to mention Toyota deathwatch just because you don`t like those boxy econo- boxes. A company that is frontrunner in porfits and reliability? A deathwatch? Common!
And don`t play with ugly and beautiful, journalists shouldn`t judge things which can`t be proved or denied. Maybe I think it is ugly, would be better, otherwise some Scion designer might hang himself somwhere in attic. By the way the last Scion orange concept wasn`t exactly boring or ugly. And Toyota doesn`t plan to shutter Scion as it attracts youth, that will later replace Scions with Toyotas and then – with Lexae. Does Scion brand water down Toyota`s image of high reliability, fit and finish and quality? Nope. So here is the answer to deathwatch.
Thank you toxicroach, I was about to say the same thing. Young people buy used cars.
I spent that time of my life broke as well.
Oh, I don’t know that young people all buy used cars…although my first car was used, I got my first brand new car at 17, and replaced it when I was 21, then another at 22, etc…and we were a middle class family. Same for my wife, same for many of my friends. Entry level cars, to be sure, but new.
3 of my coworkers have bought Scions for their kids as they hit college, and one liked it so much he bought one as a commuter car.
I think the separate branding might be a wee silly, and the new xB doesn’t do it for me compared to the old one…but I wouldn’t abandon the effort – just change the name from Scion to Toyota. And stop the bloat!
The xD is all but sold out in my neck of the woods, probably because it’s just another small affordable car with good fuel economy. I’m guessing that its sales success has nothing to do with targeting youth, just that it’s the right car at the right time. The other two are in ample supply – the tC has the short shelf that just about all coupes have, and the xB’s misfire will only look worse with the arrival of the Nissan Cube.
How to get the youth market back in this economic funk? Beats me, I’m old(er). Bringing the iQ over as a new xA, bringing the xB back to its roots, and a new RWD tC are my suggestions from the product standpoint.
i also had a brand new car, at age 16. A 4cyl Sonoma. GM Discount, Cash bonus, ~11K dollars.
New car financing is better than Used. It makes more sense to buy an entry level car with a warranty at a better finance rate, than a used mid level car with no warranty.
Who are those peole who can pay for kid’s college and buy him/her a new car? My kid goes to college in ’09 and I feel totally trapped in my 11 year old car. For comparison, I bought a 7 year old car to get to my first (US) job.
jurisb
Scion doesn`t do badge engineering. badge engineering is using the same exterior not underpinnings.
No, Scion doesn’t do badge engineering. But Toyota sure does. The first generation Scion xB was a warmed over Toyota bB, with modifications for the American market. The current xB is sold in Japan as the Corolla Rumion. And the tC is a warmed-over Avensis.
Admittedly, there are a lot more differences between donor model and end product when Toyota badge-engineers something than, for example, when GM builds a Pontiac G5 from a Cobalt. It’s more like when GM makes a Chevy Aveo from a Daewoo Kalos – same car, with modifications for a specific market. It’s still badge engineering though.
It goes without saying, creating the brand in the first place was a very very very bad idea. The good part of the idea was selling JDM-only Toyotas through it.
I don’t know if anyone has looked at the home sites of Japanese manufacturers but all of them sell fairly funky and different vehicles at home than they do here.
The xB with a badge change and left-hand drive was different enough that it single-handedly made the Scion brand and inspired other automakers to create knock-offs of it that we’re seeing now.
Then Toyota went and ruined it with an American redesign to make it bigger, fatter, thirstier and uglier. Instantly alienating the fanbase the funky little Japanese car had gained overnight.
The recipe for Scion success is relatively simple. Just sell JDM Toyotas through it that the company doesn’t already sell here and ensure they are affordable and attainable.
Not too hard to grasp right? Well Toyota seems incapable of doing so.
It’s scary how much the establishment and handling the Scion brand mirrors what GM did with all their brands.
Student Loans can be used for more than just school. And believe it or not, some kids actually work.
Scottie:
Why would you go into even more debt buying a car when you already end up $50,000 in debt when you finish university?
I was lucky, I made about $15,000 during my summer breaks and I still did not get a new car.
But I still ended up $10,000 in debt (one accident with the used car did a big chunk of that), after a BA and a Masters degree.
But I would still say that the vast majority of people ages 16-24 buy used. I’ll try to find a link to support my suspicion.
I thought scion was doing pretty well a couple years ago.. just not especially with their youth demographic. maybe their mistake is alienating the people who were actually buying their cars (regular ol middle-aged americans looking for something cheap, practical, and reliable) by changing the designs and doing all their incomprehensible new advertising.
also, you can’t really call taking a JDM toyota and bringing it to the US with another name “badge engineering” in the same sense that GM sells the same car in the same market with 8 different names. if you do, you have to accuse Lexus (who you cite as a branding success) of the same thing — remember the Altezza and the Soarer?
Scion’s intent is a good idea – make quirky cars for younger people (they also have to be cheap as they do not have deep pockets, some even regular paychecks). Unfortunately their quirky cars were Echo platforms with a box and wagon like body. Then came the tC (a corolla with a Camry engine) which sold well but was very pricey compared to the brand.
The new xB the mainstay of Scion now has only the Camry engine and no longer that fuel efficient. It’s also heavy and no longer as nimble.
If Toyota kept a small evolution of the xB – lightweight, quirky it would have kept the image alive. Now most of their cars are really just a Yaris or Corolla with a different look and factory neon accessories.
It is correct that many young people buy used cars. The ones that do buy new cars seem perfectly OK with Toyotas. I imagine there are plenty of 18-34 year olds buying Yaris, Corollas, Priora, and Camrys.
The xD seems like a neat little car.
The redesign of the xB was mostly so they could include side curtain airbags and improve side crash performance. It went from a 3 star car to a 5 star one. The door depth of the 2008 seems to be almost twice as much as the 2005 model.
also, you can’t really call taking a JDM toyota and bringing it to the US with another name “badge engineering” in the same sense that GM sells the same car in the same market with 8 different names. if you do, you have to accuse Lexus (who you cite as a branding success) of the same thing — remember the Altezza and the Soarer?
“A rose by any other name…”
And yes, Lexus engages in badge engineering, not only with the Altezza (IS) and Soarer (SC), but with the Land Cruiser(LX), and Aristo (GS).
Just because Toyota isn’t as blatant as GM doesn’t mean their cars aren’t being badge engineered all the same.
Is it too early to call this Toyota Death Watch 1?
@quasimondo: IS, GS, LS (Celsior), and SC are now Lexuses in Japan, without Toyota counterparts. The ES (Windom) is not currently sold in Japan, nor Europe.
I always liked the old XB. When they changed it I lost interest in Scion. Until they bring back the older fuel efficient models I am not a buyer. Seems indeed like Toyota is starting to screw up. All the recall problems on the Tundra and Camry don’t look good. They are in danger of becoming as corrupt and greedy as detroit. Not a good image to be promoting with the public. I guess all their rapid success is going to their head.
Toyota went entirely in the wrong direction with the two new cars. The old XB was a quirky econobox with a surprisingly big interior for a small exterior, and great fuel economy. The new XB is a midsize that screams “bloated” next to the old one. Likewise with the XD replacement for the XA.
Both are uglier and yet blander than the cars they replaced, especially the XB – and that should have been hard to do, since looks weren’t really the XB’s forte anyway.
And they do this in an economic climate where everyone is wanting tiny, fuel-efficient cars. The previous ones scored high on this; the new ones, not so much.
Dumb move.
(The really stupid ads for the XD can’t have helped, either).
IMO, Toyota fell for focus-group product design, as they have too often in the past — this leading to new models always being larger than old ones, since “more room” is an easy suggestion to articulate. Look at how big the Camry has grown.
Speaking to Automotive News, Scion’s manager of sales and promotions addressed the brand’s struggle and talked about… sales and promotion. “We have to refresh our message,” Jeri Yoshizu asserts. “And move our picture to the new 18- to 24-year-olds.” In other words, the buzz within Toyota is that Scion’s problem is that it’s not cool with the kids anymore; clever marketing can sort that shit out.
When I was 19 gas was $0.30 a gallon and I bought a Karman Ghia and bragged about my gas mileage. I am now 64 and own a Prius and brag about my car’s gas mileage.
When will the marketing exec’s realize that maybe they should consider dividing up their customers differently than by age?
Some of us were born cheap skates, tightwads, misers and we don’t change. We have zero interest in bigger, hotter, noisier, clumsier vehicles.
We do the math and can easily stop our thinking towards justifying a tow vehicle because we could use one 3 times a year.
Our automotive day dreams involve Lotuses.
The type of women we like (and like us) want to see educated kids and see money in the bank instead of sitting in the garage.
Jeri Yoshizu can spend all he wants on advertising but if his vehicles have started growing he has already lost selling to us tightwads.
Please, automakers: refine – don’t grow your cars!
Scion just tries too hard to be hip.
I mean, I should love them. I’m a fan of hatchbacks with their own personalities: Golf, Fit, A3, Fiat Panda, Volvo C30, and so on.
And yet Scion is not even on my radar. Maybe I’m too old (31), or too young for that matter.
rev0lver:
Being of college age, i know several of kids that are driving around in cars funded by Student loans, GTOs, F250 Powerstrokes (you need something tow your toys), etc. Granted they are in a lot of debt, but these are college kids not necessarily smart people.
but scion’s second generation just kind of messed the mark or not at all (in the case of the tC) . But toyota will change it, whether its drop the line or improve it.
The tC has become a scuzzmobile around here. Replacing old Integra coupes as the choice for angry teenagers.
Is it still badge engineering when the cars are not available in the same market? Seems more like platform sharing to me.
If toyota gives scion a small pickup, all will be forgiven.
I never understood the Scion brand. Young guys like 3 basic types of (relatively affordable) cars:
1) Light, tossable, high-revving coupes/hatches like the Integra Type R, Celica GTS, etc.
2) Turbo’d AWD rally-type cars, like the EVO and WRX
3) Powerful RWD coupes like the Mustang and Camaro, or even 350Z and RX-8
I will never understand who thought rebadged Echos would appeal to young guys over those 3 basic archetypes I outlined. If they produced cars along those 3 basic lines, (with cheaper, less-powerful versions as well to boost volume) and made the cars moddable, they would have had a lot easier time attracting their desired clientele. It’s not rocket science.
One of the problems with Scions are the centrally located instratment panels. EVERYONE hates this setup and Toyota is only using it as a cost saving measure to not have to engineer left and right hand drive dashboards.
One also has to ask the question of why buy a xB over the Matrix that is selling in the same showroom? Same with a xD and the Yaris.
Toyota is really doing a “GM” here with the Scion brand. Scion has done nothing but add a great deal of confusion to the purchase of an entry level Toyota product. Even folks that know about cars are now confused by Scions line-up.
Is the xA still for sale or is the xD the replacement for the xA?
What are the advantages of buying a xD over a Yaris. Which is the better car? Are either of these still built in Japan or built in the USA?
Is the reason why I can’t buy a Yaris 5-door because Toyota expects me to buy a Scion?
If Scion is supposed to be “cool” what do I upgrade to once I outgrow a Scion? So Toyota expect young hip folks to buy Scions until they turn 25 and than switch over to a boring Corolla or Camry?
What is the “top-out” price range of Scion? How does Scion not compete with the rest of the entry level Toyota products?
What is the model limit? Will Scion make a 4-door sedan or convertible?
Will Scion ever get any unique engines? Right now none of the engines offered in any Scion is exciting or “cool”.
Toyota has put itself in a quandry with the Scion brand just like GM has with Chevy and Pontiac. If Scion is the “cool” brand will we ever see a new “cool” Toyota again?
I am a 38 year old TOYOTA guy that looks for the return of the Celica, MR2, Corolla GTS, and Supra. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN SCION! In my mind Scion is Toyota-“lite” (Cheap).
Unless Toyota is willing to soil its good reputation it buy making “faux” cool & sporty Pontiac style they need to get rid of the Scion brand ASAP. “Cool” is NOT cheap it cost more to make cool than bread and butter Toyotas. Scion is only hurting the core Toyota brand with its lose of focus.
Notice that folks call Toyota boring yet NEVER make refernce to Scion brand or products. This is not because they like them it is because Scion doesn’t even show up on their radar.
If I recall, the original xB did great with senior citizens instead of 19-22 year olds. So it backfired on Toyota. Instead of hip youngsters with a mtn bike in back, it was retired silverhairs with golf clubs in the back.
Heck, my mom liked it. And she doesn’t care about cars. It had everything a frugal senior wants. Low price, good mileage, Toyota reliability, lots of room, and easy for old bones to get in and out of.
Toyota should get that RWD collaboration with Subaru stateside, badge it as a Scion, redesign it with styling cues from the AE86 Sprinter Trueno that the Initial D crowd worships, and sell everyone they make. There, problem solved.
whatdoiknow1 :
One of the problems with Scions are the centrally located instratment panels. EVERYONE hates this setup and Toyota is only using it as a cost saving measure to not have to engineer left and right hand drive dashboards.
Actually the Japanese bB & the US xB used completely different dashboards. Similar design but different actual pieces. The US one is RH specific.
I have an xB, and *love* the center speedo, once you get used to it (doesn’t take long) it is is faster and easier to glance at then a regular cluster. A few friends have borrowed the car, and none have complained about the speedo, in fact my GF likes it.
I agree with other commenters above that Toyota lost their way when Scion stopped being a brand of cheap fun JDM cars imported with minimal change. They should have kept shipping us designs that they’d already released in Japan.
my xB is now four years old, and yet every time someone rides in it for the first time they are amazed at the space and utility of it. We’ve been known to stuff four people and way too much gear into it instead of taking someone else’s larger sedan because even overfilled the xB feel like it’s got more space.
The whole brand was built on the impossible premise that you can “market cool.”
You cannot.
Upon inception, a product may be pronounced “cool” by the early adopters. But as a product reaches mainstream acceptance, it’s no longer cool. It becomes a victim of its own success.
At this point, the marketers panic and market louder and harder. This only confirms that the product is more lame than previously thought, and even the mainstreamers avoid it like the plague.
Unless you can continually refresh your product quickly and cheaply, staying one step ahead of the curve, your “cool” product cools quickly.
No, cars aren’t sneakers or cell phones.
The solution to “cool” in the car business is “excellence and value.”
That’s a marketing message that resonates across all psycho- and demographics.
A lesson Toyota had to learn the hard way. But shouldn’t have had to.
@quasimondo: IS, GS, LS (Celsior), and SC are now Lexuses in Japan, without Toyota counterparts. The ES (Windom) is not currently sold in Japan, nor Europe.
Hypothetical time: If GM stopped selling the Chevy Malibu and started selling it as the Cadillac MTS the following year, wouldn’t that still be badge engineering?
I will concede the ES, which ironically enough is the only non-rebadged Lexus in their lineup.
“Those 18-25’s you’re so keen on detest being pitched to!”
http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=b40f581dff2004ea5c001301174b3509
I will concede the ES, which ironically enough is the only non-rebadged Lexus in their lineup.
Only because it’s not being sold as a Toyota anymore. Until the introduction of Lexus in Japan a couple of years ago, the ES has always been a rebadged Camry variant, similar to the Aura/Malibu – same hard points and powertrains, different sheetmetal, dash, and interiors.
The RWD Lexus cars (not SUV’s, of course) no longer have Toyota counterparts, nor share platforms with Toyota badged vehicles. I believe the Lexus IS and GS are now on the same platform, but that’s hardly what you would call badge engineering.
It was a Machiavellian plot, which didn’t work.
ToMoCo’s purpose was to get smaller weaker poorer automakers to divert R&D and marketing money to a “youth brand”. Then Toyota would simply kill Scion and watch everyone else throw good money after bad.
No one took the bait.
I don’t think that Scion was an ill-fated idea. I think that Toyota choked on the latest round of redesigns. The tC was barely redesigned and the xB was made in ineffecient. The matrix was also completely unnecessary. Overall, I think they have overused the 2.4 engine and thus made their entire lineup inefficient. While everyone was mocking Honda for making the civic less powerful than the competition, Toyota drank the kool-aid and got hurt. They need a slightly more stylish Versa with the 1.8. THe xD is a bit on the small side and the xB is too heavy.
the brand that should have never made it out focus group.
Is my ESL kicking in here or is a word missing?
Call me Pollyanna – I was at a Toyota dealer Saturday and there were a total of 3 Scions available. While I’m not crazy about the new xB’s exterior design, it does seem a hell of a lot safer/substantial. The centered dash sucks, though. I like the xD much better than the xA, but there was no need to increase the size of the engine that much. Finally, the tC is, in my mind, a screaming bargain – sort of a cheap Celica with sunroof, great stereo, etc. I wish the other models offered sunroofs as well (life it too short to live without one….).
I also believe a small pickup (ala 1980 Rabbit) would sell well.
Domestic Hearse :
You can market cool. The problem is, you can’t market underpowered FWD econoboxes as cool and get away with it (at least, not for long). Since what seems like the beginning of time young guys have liked powerful (or at least fast) cars. Make a brand that has relatively fast, relatively affordable, good handling, heavily modifiable cars, and you will appeal to young guys. Am I the only one that understands this?
The first generation of Scions had a clear brand — keicars for the US market. Every step since then has been a step away from that idea toward, well, nothing in particular that I can see, apart from random Brownian motion. Whether you want to call it “badge engineering” or not, there should be a (growing, gas-price-driven) market for cute-but-weird little city cars and funky hatchbacky things in the US. What Scion’s selling right now ain’t that; it’s low-po tunermobiles (tC), ugly wagonthings the size of small SUVs (new xB), and vanilla econoboxes (xD). More quirk, less weight, or the whole segment will be swallowed by the Nissan Cube and the Honda Fit.
Well, when I was at a local Toyota dealership a couple weeks ago to have a recall/bulletin item fixed. I decided to walk over to “The Scion Room”. You know, that little room where they have the fancy theatre system and the great dance music playing to sexy images of XAs and TC’s driving and shape-shifting like nocturnal city animals?
Right. It was gone! The room, I mean. Replaced by sales offices!
Now, the only thing distantly resembling “The Scion Room” is really just a “Scion Brochure Stand,” and it’s not located in a place of pride. It’s behind the “Salesman Bullpen,” partially blocked by the “Tundra Brochure Stand.”
No hip dance music, no movie, no slick flat panel displays, no nothing!
So I think that you need not worry, Robert. Scion is on its way out; being done in by the dealerships first, and later, it will be killed off by the manufacturer.
Don’t fret the words of management. They’ll say flowery things today, but they have to do that, because there’s inventory to be mindful of.
One day, maybe six years, months, or minutes from now, it will die a quiet death. So quiet, I think, we won’t even notice. In 2010, or maybe 2012, we’ll have a “Whatever Happened To” article. Along with Lutz, Mulaly, Wagoner, Saturn, Buick, and General Motors, one entry will be…Scion. Maybe next to “Favre”.
Eventually, time will do us all in.
Scion should be synonymous with JDM.
It was a brand to bring a patina of otherworldliness to Toyota, something to compensate for the relentless dullness radiated by virtually product the company has produced for North America over the past two decades. The moment Scion went from tweaking product to marketing and pandering it lost the plot.
JDM, it’s that simple.
It was a Machiavellian plot, which didn’t work.
ToMoCo’s purpose was to get smaller weaker poorer automakers to divert R&D and marketing money to a “youth brand”. Then Toyota would simply kill Scion and watch everyone else throw good money after bad.
No one took the bait.
Boy, that’s hard to believe, but it does make sense when you consider that Toyota put its Scion dealers INSIDE existing Toyota dealers, making it way easier, faster, cheaper and less painful if/when they decided to pull the plug. That’s NOT the course they followed with Lexus…
Hmm, as long as I can’t buy a 5-door Yaris or a Corolla wagon, this 40-something will be cross-shopping Scion. Sorry ToMoCo, the sheeple are winning this game.
– bring over the current Japanese market bB to replace the current pig.
– the xD gets the job done well enough
– the next tC needs RWD or its DOA with Hyundai and Nissan going to have something.
i had an xB for about 14 months. but it was a chore to drive and very difficult to keep up with traffic let alone pass. I averaged 26mpg. it got to the point where i couldnt take it anymore and i wanted something faster/more fun. i went to the Toyota dealer and found….nothing. the tC drives like a minivan and they had nothing else…so i bought a GTI.
“GM’s replacement will fall victim to the same size-related entropy”
[spelling Nazi]Wouldn’t the proper word here have be atrophy, not entropy?
Entropy is a concept from thermodynamics, basically it is the disorder of a system or its ability to do work. [/spelling Nazi]
Robert Farago:
If Toyota kills Scion, we’ll know they’re not General Motors. If ToMoCo persists in this, we’ll know that they could well be doomed to repeat GM’s history.
I think they will keep it. They need to get “young” customers to their show rooms.
They’re in fact doomed to repeat GM’s history… just wait until they become REALLY arrogant with the Prius.
They’re already sliding, very slowly, but sliding anyway: cheapening interiors have already began, lots of recalls… and will continue.
History cycles are shorter when repeated.
domestic hearse:
The solution to “cool” in the car business is “excellence and value.”
That’s a marketing message that resonates across all psycho- and demographics.
Well exactly.
eh_political :
Scion should be synonymous with JDM.
While I can certainly understand Paul Niedermeyer’s argument that the first xB brought stateside was the Model T all over again, was it REALLY any more attractive for wearing the Scion badge? In fact, couldn’t the xB’s “hipness” have HELPED Toyota shake its fusty image?
No, Scion should die.
sellfone:
It was a Machiavellian plot, which didn’t work.
ToMoCo’s purpose was to get smaller weaker poorer automakers to divert R&D and marketing money to a “youth brand”. Then Toyota would simply kill Scion and watch everyone else throw good money after bad.
I’m going to bring Pontiac down, if I have to destroy Ewing Oil to do it! Seriously, all Toyota has to do to wipe out the Big 2.8: lower their prices. But that would kill ToMoCo’s prices and destroy their profits. Anyone remember when the CEO of Toyota offerer to RAISE their NA prices to help GM? Now THAT’S a conspiracy!
yournamehere :
i went to the Toyota dealer and found….nothing. the tC drives like a minivan and they had nothing else…so i bought a GTI.
Toyota needs another full-line automaker like GM needs/needed another full-line automaker. But make no mistake: as long as Scion exists, the temptation will be there.
Phillip :
[spelling Nazi]Wouldn’t the proper word here have be atrophy, not entropy?
Yup. Text amended.
I have to differ with most of the comments here.
Scion is meant to be a niche sub-brand within Toyota, designed to capture those who dislike Toyota’s conservatism, but who can be lured into it as the customer becomes older and learns to play it safe, at which point they’ll hopefully switch. It’s ultimately a gateway to the parent, not a completely unique identity.
It’s also meant to be a marketing experiment, to see whether cars can be sold to American youth using a style more typical of Japanese channel management: pre-ordered vehicles, sold without negotiation and with an emphasis on custom accessories.
It is not meant to be a dominant brand that cannibalizes the parent badge. It’s part youth marketing tool, part market research laboratory, but one from which the Toyota brand will benefit.
The brand concept is sound, and Toyota has more than enough resources to afford some experimentation. (It would be foolish not to experiment at this stage in the game, as that market intel will be critical to building future share.) Just so long as Scion can operate without cannibalizing substantial share or damaging the parent brand, they can coexist and serve one another.
If criticism should be leveled, it should be at some of the product choices. These designs should be edgy and distinctive in the spirit of the niche; however, the cars themselves are a mixed bag, with the company’s predominant conservatism creeping into the product. All and all, that’s something that is need of some tweaking, not a baby-with-bathwater chucking.
Toyota needs another full-line automaker like GM needs/needed another full-line automaker. But make no mistake: as long as Scion exists, the temptation will be there.
– what i was trying to illustrate is that the stepping stone logic that toyota hoped for doesnt work as it is now. who is going to go from a unique vehicle like the xB into….a camry? they are missing a few steps in between. i personally know 4 ex-scion owners who are now driving GTI’s or Civic Si’s. that should be telling toyota something.
One of the problems with Scions are the centrally located instratment panels. EVERYONE hates this setup
No, not everyone. I like the center located instrument panel. I don’t have to look for information through the steering wheel and in the Prius my passengers enjoy watching what the engine is doing.
If Scion is supposed to be “cool” what do I upgrade to once I outgrow a Scion?
As I mentioned before marketing types need to factor in things besides “cool” (what ever that is) and youth. The only person I know who bought an original Scion was 60 years old and apparently many of us old timers liked them. Toyota should have built on that interest and found some other model to be cool or of interest to youth.
Cool doesn’t seem to last very long. When the HHR, the new Thunderbird, and the PT Cruiser came out I thought they were fun looking (is that the same as cool?) but the feeling only lasted a few months.
Why do you need to outgrow your car? You can outgrow your job, your need to take drugs, your wife, your hometown, playing baseball, saying things like EVERYONE. So many things to outgrow in life, why put emphasizes on a car to show off your abiltiy to outgrow?
“And move our picture to the new 18- to 24-year-olds.”
Does Toyota even bother to see who’s buying the xB? The only time I see someone below 50 driving an xB (1st or 2nd gen) is if it’s owned by a business like Geek Squad.
jpc0067,
The new Matrix is the Corolla wagon.
What people are missing is that Scions are the ‘poser’ car. It is for those guys that love the Civic si, WRX, etc, but cannot afford the cost/ insurance of such cars and girls who want something that looks cool/cute (mainly the tC). The tC is the ready to go version of that auto civic dx/ex coupe with the altezza tails and the big rims. It was never meant to be a rsx/evo/etc competitor. It does do that job well.
having stupidly purchased a(nother) tercel neé yaris for my missus, i’ll never look at tomoco for another set of wheels. i wanted a fit, but they’re kinda rare in this market, plus my bro-in-law used to work for toyota in hokkaido & told my missus that toyota engines are far more consistent than anyone elses. he’s right: more consistently awful. scion is the same crud in a more revolting package.
may the new gm suffer the same fate as the old. so when are you starting up a toyota deathwatch, robert?
Scottie :
August 4th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
i also had a brand new car, at age 16. A 4cyl Sonoma. GM Discount, Cash bonus, ~11K dollars.
New car financing is better than Used. It makes more sense to buy an entry level car with a warranty at a better finance rate, than a used mid level car with no warranty.
I beg to differ. I’d rather buy used. Why buy a new car when you could buy an older one with more features? The only new cars I could finanace would be crappy base models with Crank-up windows and no ABS. Why the hell would I want to drive around in that? I could save money, buy a Manual Transmisson mid-ninties Accord EX-R(For example) with every option, and be alot happier with my vehicle. New does not always mean better.
Some friends of mine recently purchased an xB. They are (as I am) squarely in the mid-boomer demographic, could care less about being or appearing hip or cool(two words probably not even in their vocabulary). They just needed to replace a rusting, mid-80’s Toyota pick-up and wanted something affordable with room to haul their two greyhounds and occasionally some camping gear. For them, the xB appears to be fulfilling those needs. I’ve only ridden in the xB a couple times, but I think that’s enough to remove it from my shopping list. Questionable exterior aesthetics aside, the seats made my back and butt ache after 15 minutes, my elbow was sore from the hard plastic arm rest, a truly cheap looking interior and I don’t think I’d ever get used to the center dash display. Kept asking myself if this was really a Toyota product?
One more gripe about Toyota in general. Is “blind spot” now part of their design language. Seems like just about every new Toyota these days “features” an extra wide C-pillar. Combine that with the trendy, oh-so-cool low gun slit greenhouse of the xB and you’ve got an instant case of claustrophobia.
As someone who saw a dealership from the inside, you have to see that Toyota trying not to get into another set of franchises and all that goes with that stuffed this brand in the already overloaded toyota stores. Two things happen when you have too many models (brands) under one roof.
If you are undercapitalized, or in a small market you only have a couple of each thing, Murphy’s law says you will have the wrong color or equipment for the customer that does come in. Most customers won’t stop because they can only see one or two of the model they want on your lot. So then the mega-dealer wins, well not exactly.
All dealerships in metro areas sit on finite amounts of property (very expensive property to be exact) You are the sales manager and you have the bucks to order the scions in by the truckload.
Now do they go in front of along side of or off site from the regular toyotas. Or do you just put a couple of each out front because the front line is only a city block long?
Meanwhile the truckloads of camrys and toyota SUV’s are arriving daily. I guess we put a few more of these out front and the rest on the off site lot.
Now the salesmen (women) who are too lazy to read the sales promotion literature and specs on the regular toyota line have to present these new funny looking things. They fudge it, because it doesn’t represent more sales but just different sales.
The service guy is driving the parts manager nuts because the scions are starting to make appointments in the overcrowded service bays and need parts that aren’t in yet. The customer’s scion is waiting for it’s part but the service lot is choked with todays customers already. Where does the lot boy stick this unwanted thing?
So what started out as the number one dealership selling the number one franchised cars is now drifting towards chaos as nobody is happy: Management, sales people, customers, mechanics, etc.
But you know what get some help from out back another load of Scions just arrived out front and the trailer is blocking customers from entering off the highway.
This is different than GM having too many dealers but in some ways worse. The scion should go.
1) Scion needs style like Mini has. Cute, quirky, SOMETHING.
2) Scion has no-haggle pricing, which is ridiculous because if we could negotiate the price lower, people would buy them. We went to the dealer and had the choice between an xB for 17k or a Camry for 18k after a 3.5k discount and 500 rebate. Both new, both with the same engine. Neither had style, but the Scion was ugly.
3) xB fuel economy SUCKS.
4) Plastic wheel covers are NOT cool.
5) Civics have more cheap/chic/young interiors, have more gas mileage.
6) Scions try too hard to be cool, really. It’s too self-conscious and advertises it’s own rebelliousness but is really conventional and boring, really.
http://www.slate.com/id/2195594/?GT1=38001
Perspective of an 18 year old whose 50/60 y.o. parents even thought Scions were ugly and gross and got a Camry instead for himself. :)
“Am I the only guy who spent that time of my life mostly broke?”
Nope. But, back then we had used VW Bugs. Engine problems. Yank the thing and we can rebuild it in the living room.
In a lot of ways it was a terrible car, but it was cheap to buy and to own.
Kids are stupid. Scion would do well to make a sporty car of some sort. Kids like flashy things that attract attention.
I work at a job that pays very well if you are good at it. It really only requires people skills and only a GED is required for education. There are a lot of guys I work with that or 18-25 that are doing well for their age, $50-$75k. Here are what my young co-workers drive.
09 Maxima- Driven by an 19 year old. He likes all the gadgets and it has 290hp.
07 CTS- 23 year old driver. Wanted it because Caddies are “awesome” and chicks would dig it.
BMWs,crotch rockets,Harley’s and big trucks are popular with this group.
So basically, Scion needs to get a car with a pussy magnet. That’s what young, single guys are looking for.
I wasn’t serious about the Machiavellian plot. I should have used a sarcasim emoticon.
It is interesting though, that other companies didn’t jump on the bandwagon and come out with a youth brand.
What Toyota does in their local market is not our business. Us car manufacturers are almost not there, so it is not up to you to pick on Toyota what she rebadges at home. What I wanted to say, that Toyota doesn`t rebadge in the same continent, meaning there are no chances of seeing 5 similar vehicles with different slapped grilles and different names, like Buick Terrazza, pontiac montana, bla, bla, bla.. on your street. Toyota simply sells some of their models under Scion brand in Usa, and it is not a rebadge in Det3 meaning, when value of a brand is diluted because everyone has the same cars. Show me a Scion in US from which I could take front windshield and replace it with any Toyota`s one that are currently in us! Toyota also owns Daihatsu , and Hino, and believe me they have enough room to experiment with small cars !
I fell in love with the xB after driving one in Japan in 2000. I bought one in 2005, and I still like it. It might have been the most fun car to drive under $20K.
But the new generation? There is no excuse for the 600+ pound (25%) weight gain. And it really lost a lot of the character that made it fun.
I hope they return to the original idea.
The 25% weight gain did for the xB driving experience what a 25% weight gain would do for your sex life.
Scion needs to be “cutting edge”, inexpensive and efficient — two of their 3 cars no longer meet these requirements.
Within my demographic at the time when Scion premiered (18-24 or whatever), all the people I knew, within my circle of “car guy” friends and otherwise, looked at Scion as the “parent trying to look cool”, like your dad wearing his ball cap backwards and trying to listen to hip hop… That’s what the commercials and advertisements came off as, to us. It was the ultimate in “not cool” to drive a Scion.
As Robert said, it’s a product driven by marketing, not the other way around. Epic fail.
One more gripe about Toyota in general. Is “blind spot” now part of their design language. Seems like just about every new Toyota these days “features” an extra wide C-pillar. Combine that with the trendy, oh-so-cool low gun slit greenhouse of the xB and you’ve got an instant case of claustrophobia.
I am beginning to believe that this is also another cheap cost-cutting measure. They can save a few coins by reducing the amount of glass they are installing into their cars. It also reduces that amount of labor and time that is need to make each car.
IMO, this is the type of shit that Toyota fan will notice and it will cause them to move away from the brand.
Scion was dead as a ‘cool’ brand as soon as the first graybeards started buying them.
I have two teenagers, one at home, the other in college (and broke, but working on it); Scion isn’t even remotely on the radar.
Both of my kids want VW’s (Beetle and GTI), they don’t even notice any other cars…
Late to the party on this post, but a couple of comments about Toyota and Scion:
If you believe that practice makes perfect, what Toyota is doing with Scion is developing the next generation of engineering talent and acumen in design and manufacture of small cars. This is why Toyota is the most profitable small car maker…at the cost of 100k units of Corrola or RAV4 sales, (which they sell all they can build anyway) they are developing engineering talent and gaining experience in how to keep making small cars better. Call it a engineering skunk works and trianing program. And since they do get revenue for these cars, all they really need to do is break even on Scion, which is getting the customer to pay for training their engineers…..since Scions do not correlate size-wise directly to any other Toyota products other than the Yaris or Corrola per se, you can’t say they are badge engineering in the sense GM does it….a Xd is not a corrola with a different grill and different badge…..
All in all, pretty smart way to develop a customer base and engineering/design talent for the future….
The recipe for Scion success is relatively simple. Just sell JDM Toyotas through it that the company doesn’t already sell here and ensure they are affordable and attainable.
Not too hard to grasp right? Well Toyota seems incapable of doing so.
I wholeheartedly agree with TriShield. Like many other Scion owners, I’m satisfied with my purchase despite the marketing strategy.
Toyota has an opportunity here for a speculative, experimental brand (not one developed through focus groups). Drop the self-consciously hip thing and instead use Scion to introduce interesting JDM cars to the US (some of these cars are just inherently cool). Some will fail, some will succeed. Then use this knowledge to further refine and focus other Toyota products.
They really messed up on the Xb and Xd models that were designed for the American market.
Of the three Scion models, only the tC was down this month. Of course there were no 2007 xA/xDs or xBs, so that’s not really saying all that much, but Scion’s biggest problem at this very minute is the fact that the tC is aging and needs a replacement quickly.
@folkdancer:
“Our automotive day dreams involve Lotuses.”
As educated people, I believe our automotive dreams involve Loti.
frenchy :
What’s your job? I think I’m in the wrong field.
The 25% weight gain did for the xB driving experience what a 25% weight gain would do for your sex life.
So….are you saying buying into the ‘enlargement’ spams was a mistake?
It’s funny to watch a bunch of 30 and 50 somethings discuss what a 22-year-old is going to think is cool.
I’m 25. I AM broke. That’s why I need a car that will last forever without costing me a pile of money by breaking every three weeks. That’s why I quit buying shitty used GM trucks and bought a 1st-gen xB. The difference in gas alone means it’s costing me less, per month, than my Blazer did, not even counting repairs. Used cars suck.
You may not be able to market cool, but you sure can market UGLY! I got interested in the xB when I heard one of the old morons at work going on and on about how much he DESPISED it, and he hadn’t even sat in one. Well, the enemy of my enemy is my friend! I checked out the brand online, decided I liked the features, loved the no-bullshit pure pricing, picked out the options I wanted (try that at any other car dealer), and bought. Best decision I ever made.
The new one is just craptastic. All I hear is soccer moms and dads prattling on about how KEEYOOOT they are, because it’s basically just a baby Highlander. My dad LOVES them. As for me? Totally uninterested.
And before anybody starts ragging too hard on the originals, do your homework: used xB’s with 30 and 40,000 miles on them still routinely sell for MORE than they sold brand-new. There’s still plenty of demand for the original, quirky, Boomer-offending, toaster on wheels. It’s the crap they’re currently selling that is thoroughly uninteresting.
After all, there’s a lot of competition for Boomers, and you all sure as hell have enough money to pick and choose. When I bought, there wasn’t anything at all around like the box.
And yes, plenty of old people drove the original. Being driven mostly by 20-somethings OR 70-year-olds is NOT THE SAME as being driven mostly by 53-year-olds who just sold their Explorer now that both the kids are out of college.
I think Scion will be just fine if they axe their Corolla Wagon and their inadequate Fit-Fighter, and start selling something INTERESTING again.
JuniorMint :
I have never even been remotely interested in any Scion model, and I’m younger than you (barely). It’s not just old people who don’t like these things
I was slightly piqued until I saw that they committed my biggest ergonomic pet peeve of sticking the gauges where the radio’s supposed to sit. Haven’t looked at them since. I could care less about fit, finish, and all of that crap, I just want the gauges in front of the driver like they’re supposed to be.
I think pch101 nails it. The Toyota exec flat-out says so: “The original Scion goal was all about transparency and reducing time to purchase cars and vehicle personalization,” Jim Lenz told AN. “And none of that has changed.”
I don’t think this is a rationalization; I recall hearing this when they launched the brand and admiring it as a brilliant business insight. At a time when every critic and consumer is moaning about the choke-hold the franchised dealer system has on decent customer service, Toyota is repeating the behind-the-scenes part of the Lexus formula: you can’t make your current brand’s dealers toe the line to any great degree, but if you create a new brand, you can rewrite the maker-dealer relationship from a clean sheet of paper. And so they have.
What’s more, this time they’ve further refined their profitability model by centralizing all the accessories that used to be dealer-installed. This not only hogs all the dealer-installed options loot for Corporate, it also delivers a legitimate consumer benefit by offering a greater range of choices.
The youth market is the right market for the Scion structural experiment for two simple reasons, neither of which has anything to do with “coolness”: They’re less brand loyal and thus easier to attract to an unknown brand, and they’re more into personalizing with accessories.
Toyota has a lot more to gain than to lose with the Scion experiment, and I applaud them for trying it. Now if they can just stock that corner of the showroom behind the beverage cooler with cars that aren’t bloated dog crap, they’ll really be onto something again.
How does the tC fit in to all this? It’s not weird, quirky, nerdy or whatever. Do people assume that Scion= the xB/xA/xD? Should the tC just have been the Celica?
Speaking as a 40-something, my car decisions have nothing to do with trying to recapture lost youth or be seen as cool by 20-somethings. We have no wish to offend young people by liking the same car they like. I used to have a Honda Element, which I bought for the space, easy-to-clean inside, and fun-to-drive factor. (Of course, like the Scion, they marketed the E toward young folks, but missed the mark as we middle-agers and older people went for them).
It was never my wish to, as a consequence upon buying the Element, to automatically inject a gross-out factor for America’s youth for that particular model. Before I bought the Element, I looked at a Scion, but the one I drove had no power. Aesthetically, I like boxy shapes, which is subjective and for which, as in all taste (or in my case lack thereof), there is no accounting.