The Detroit Free Press reports that GM has finally chosen a Volt battery supplier from its dueling development partners LG Chem and Conti. But in the interest of squeezing as many "Volt On The Way" headlines into future news cycles, it isn't saying which has been chosen. Both the battery partner and the final look of the production Volt will be previewed by the end of the year, probably whenever some bad news emerges that GM wants the public to ignore. In the meantime, this news means one thing, according to GM auto authoritarian Bob Lutz: "the Volt is real … and test work is progressing nicely." Perhaps not as nicely as Toyota's plug-in Prius though, which just had its delivery date bumped from 2010 to 2009. And with the 'yota PHEV set to arrive a year before the Volt's "late 2010" target, Lutz makes the case for waiting for the Volt to the AP. Toyota hasn't released an all-electric range for the Prius, but Lutz is assuming that because it's a parallel hybrid it won't match the Volt's 40 mile EV range. "After eight or 11 miles (Toyota's PHEV) reverts to being a completely normal gasoline-electric hybrid, which means you get about a 25-30 percent fuel savings, but the point is they do burn fuel." Lutz goes on: "A plug-in hybrid with a limited range is a very nice thing to have. It's wonderful that Toyota is working on this. If they have some test fleets out next year that's great. But it's not the same thing as a Chevy Volt, which is not a plug-in hybrid." Translation: it will cost more than the Prius, but you'll get more green cred. But don't take Bob's word for it. A full (theoretical) comparison test of the Volt and Plug-in Prius can be found here.
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It’s too bad that the Prius will still be cheaper, more proven and more practical in day-to-day use. Other than those small details the Volt slays it…
More proven, yeah. But you’re comparing apples to sashimi.
Totally different beasts.
To compare identical mo-sheens, Toyota would have to dredge up a “plug in” only.
Since they haven’t, I’m thinking they have battery issues yet unanounced.
Savvy?
Bob, did Toyota send you an e-mail about the upcoming Prius characteristics? If not, maybe you’d better keep mum on all this for a bit.
It’s all well and good to talk about the Prius’ 8 to 11 mile range… but you might end up surprised to be going up against a Prius with 20 mile range in 2009.
As for “but the point is, they do burn fuel,” you’d better get in touch with your engineers because so does your car. Or, anyway, it will. Someday. Both cars have limited EV-range and the exact edge the Volt will have has yet to be determined.
It’s not reported in the Detroit News but Maximum Bob was also claiming… my test fleet is will be bigger than your test fleet… in an article published by the International Herald Tribune. Maximum Bob is clearly expecting Toyota to do fleet leases for tests in late 2009.
But I wonder about that… It’s also not reported (that I noticed) in DN but Toyota’s president remarked Thursday about Prius PHEV “delivery” in late 2009. I’m trying not to get my hopes up(*) but that might imply normal sales channels. Of course, that could just be JDM, too, with delivery to the US to be later.
Even if Toyota does only fleet leasing in late 2009, Maximum Bob could still be unpleasantly surprised by the size of the Prius PHEV test fleet. If the thing is a plain vanilla Prius except for the size of the battery and some software parameters, then test fleet production is limited only by battery availability… Toyota could field a lot of these things. The 2009 Priuses, after all, are available in mass quantity in early 2009.
(*) – Yes, Jen Dunnaway, it might mark me as an evil Detroit-hating Toyota-lover but I admit I’m really looking forward to buying a Prius, either plain or fancy. Check TrueDelta.com; the Prius has been aces for reliability. And both my wife and I have short routine commutes, so a 20-mile EV – or even an 11-mile EV, would suit us very well. Why would I pay maybe $10K extra for 40 miles EV range when I don’t need it?
They aren’t totally different beasts. The Volt will be burning gas just like the Prius after half an hour of highway driving.
You’ll save gas. But damn, people were hung up about the hybrid premium when it was a few thousand, much less 20g. That extra gallon you might be saving on a long commute is going to take a long ass time to pay for itself.
Totally different.
One is from the U.S.
Other is from Japan.
One goes to 30 miles BEFORE the gas goes on.
The other 11.
So for now, with the facts presented, they DO seem different.
Thanks toxicroach, that was my point.
I really wish GM hadn’t gone the “moonshot” route and just went with a more Prius-like hybrid. It could’ve been on the market a lot sooner and helped give them more credibility and time to work on the Volt to ensure it really does live up to its hype when it hits the streets.
As it is you’ll have to be one serious GM fan to pony up the cash for a Volt if you could buy a Cruze that can achieve 40mpg for $25k less (if the press releases are to be believed).
When someone next has an opportunity, Bob Lutz should be asked about the Volt rollout. Last year, GM said there would be a geographically limited rollout initially. I wonder if that has changed?
Why are the arguments against the Volt always about costs, practicality, range etc. It will attract buyers for its own reasons, and if you don’t get it then you won’t get one. Who would buy a Miata when a Honda Odyssey has a similar cost but does a lot more ? Why would anyone buy a BMW when a Hyundai can do practically everything the same for a lot less ? Many Diesel vehicles will go 500 miles per tank, but my car only does 250, so should I swap to a Diesel ?
Many people held funerals when GM crushed their EV1s and many people think the Prius is a dorkmobile. Everyone has their own reason for buying a car (if we were all logical there would only be Corollas and Camrys on the road) so as long as GM don’t screw up, and as long as they deliver at least 90% of what they’ve promised, then I’m sure there will be a market for the Volt.
If GM were ever remotely serious about this stuff, they could have had one team working on a good parallel hybrid (Prius-style) and the Volt team continuing to work on this serial hybrid. It’s not like they don’t have enough engineers that were (and probably are even now) wasting their time on SUVs.
sitting@home :
Unless you feel the Volt is some sort of halo car it will compete directly against all the other hybrid, and high mileage compacts scheduled to be in the market when it’s released. GM doesn’t really have the sort of money to keep throwing at low volume, high cost vehicles like this.
Why do I assume this 40-mile electric-only range is going to be without the radio, AC/Heater, or testicle roasting seat-heaters activated … Sounds like a pretty awful 40 miles. Oh, and not uphill.
ZCline, you assume that because you are right and Bob Lutz reminds one of the Jon Lovitz skit on Saturday Night Live. Remember the compulsive liar, stretch-the-truth routine? Next he will say the Cruze gets over 42 mpg…in the city.
And the safest toy this holiday season? Bag O’ Nails!
I’m amazed that Lutz didn’t talk smack on Toyota and then sit back and make some more grandiose claims. Up until now, that has been his thing.
The Prius is a series-parallel hybrid, which means it works like both a series hybrid (where the engine runs a generator to charge the battery, then the battery runs an electric motor, ie Volt) or a parallel hybrid (where the both the engine and electric motor propel the car directly. ie Civic, Insight) Because of this many after-market companies increased the battery capacity of Priuses and allowed them to have a plug-in electric only mode. It is not hard for Toyota to do the same thing.
Does anybody ever question where all the electricity would come from for electric vehicles?
Already California is almost at the breaking point for power generation. The enviros are in love with electric cars but file endless lawsuits to prevent nuclear, oil, coal, hydro or wind power plants from being built.
The economics of an electric car won’t look nearly as good in states like California with extremely high electric rates. If I remember correctly in some areas they charge a higher amount per kwh after a certain amount is used. An electric care would most assuredly shove those people into the higher rates.
I am also a bit curious about how the charging of the volt will work. Will it need a special charging station or will one be able to plug it into a standard 110 volt AC outlet? The need for a special charging device would be a big minus for apartment dwellers, but if it is as simple as pulling an extension cord out of the hood and plugging it into whatever handy-dandy external AC outlet becomes available (at work, utility outlet outside the apartment complex, etc) it could be better.
Time to take a full charge will also be a factor though, as I imagine certain building managers might not take kindly to seeing someone’s car plugged in sapping away energy…
Bill Wade,
The DOE did a study on that… Most electric laod problems are peak issues only and off-peak, there’s plenty of capacity to charge practically a nation full of electric vehicles. Demand pricing will sort out the charging situation with the Volt with respect to peak load issues. And there’s only 10K Volts due for 2011, anyway. It’s not like this is our biggest looming crisis.
“General Motors Corp. has told federal regulators they should not count on any fuel economy gains from the upcoming Chevrolet Volt or other plug-in hybrids when setting new efficiency standards, saying such vehicles would be built in low numbers through 2015.”
… The Freep continues with the actual money quote:
“For the purposes of the NHTSA rulemaking, GM’s game-changing EREV technology should be treated as a low-volume application during the time period under consideration,” the automaker said in a filing. “We strongly discourage NHTSA from applying either PHEV or EREV technology in any significant volume in its … model during the 2011-2015 timeframe.”
Source: Detroit Free Press, 7/9/08
Yes, I know, *shocking* that the Volt is not the next Honda Accord.
The numbers floating around for costs on the lithium battery is $10,000 and replaced at every 100,000 miles.
They say that will be reduced when the deman pushes up supply but I think the costs are in the rare earth materials that make up the batteries.
Good Luck on selling a used Lithium Ion battery powered car when the word gets out that you will need $10,000 to replace the batteries.
Where is the cost of running the car come in with $10,000 battery pack? GM manufacturing 50mpg cars will surely slow down the move to Hybrids.
Will the Volt come with a free Art Lebedev Vilcus Dactyloadapter?
Good Luck on selling a used Lithium Ion
battery powered car when the word gets out that you will need $10,000 to replace the batteries.
Exactly that’s why a lead acid pack at 1/5th the cost would be a worthwhile retrofit despite its lower performance.
But when is the battery free (virtual battery) VOLT coming out ?
T2