From TTAC reader Dan: “My mom has owned two cars over the past twenty years: a 1988 Volvo 760 Turbo and a more recent late ’90’s Volvo 960 (I don’t know the exact year). Now she’s looking for a replacement. Apparently her top choice is a Lexus ES350, and she’s also considering getting yet another Volvo.
Pre-history: Mom’s first car was a Karman Ghia, which my dad made her toss when, whilst repairing it, he observed that he could see through the rusting-out floor. Next, she had a Buick Opel (GM briefly imported the Opel Kadett), followed by a craptastic 1981 Buick Skylark (“Limited”), on which I learned to drive. Thankfully, it died before my sixteenth birthday would have allowed it to be handed down to me.
According to my father, Mom is emphatically not interested in Mercedes or BMW (being concerned about reliability and operating expense), nor is she interested in Acura (despite having ridden in and driven my ’05 Acura TL). Mom’s the opposite of a speed demon, although she has occasionally expressed remorse over how the Volvo 960 isn’t as zippy as the earlier 760 Turbo. And she once surprised me by reeling off the relative performance characteristics of manual vs. automatic transmissions in a drag race. Where’d you learn that, Mom? Anyway, Mom needs a big trunk to move art projects around. She puts maybe 3000 miles a year on the car. She could care less about nav systems and the like, although she could well be sold on air-conditioned seats or other gadgets that compensate for living in a hot climate (Dallas).
So, dearest TTAC Best & Brightest, what do you recommend for my mom? Let’s assume, for the sake of discussion, that her budget is unlimited, but her tolerance for taking the car to the shop is nil. Whatever she buys had better last another ten years with little more than regularly scheduled maintenance.”
Toyota Avalon Limited?
It’s got more room than the Lexus, it’s even less sporty, it comes with cooled seats, and is priced the same or less than an ES350. Reliability is spot on too.
The only drawback I can think of is that it’s quite a bit bigger than a Volvo 960/760, which she might not like.
Subaru Legacy or Outback.
The shift from Volvo to Subaru would be an easy one to make, and the turbo models would have more than enough “zip”, while the non-turbo models are still torquey enough to be considered adequate.
The Outback would have more than enough space for any objet d’art.
Not sure if they have cooled seats off the top of my head, but Subaru’s A/C seems powerful enough for me.
Audi A4 Avant, or a Volvo XC70 with the upcoming Turbo (or not).
Both are fantastic cars that carry a bit of cache without boring you so much that you want to create an art project out of a tree and your front bumper.
Impreza wrx wagon? Legacy might be a nice choice also.
wrx wagon should have decent space while being “zippy” (probably much more so than her old volvo)
Volvo V70 if the extra utility of a wagon appeals, S80 if it doesn’t. You might also look for a gently-used S70.
Accord V6 might work.
…her budget is unlimited, but her tolerance for taking the car to the shop is nil.
If she gets a Lexus, it won’t matter. By 2010, all Lexus’ showrooms will have artist’s areas with drawing tables, brushes and 48 pastel watercolors.
I wish I could recommend the Saab 9-5, which would delight her I’m sure, in spite of it’s aging (!) architecture. It’s very comfortable, extremely safe, peppy while frugal, has a huge trunk or comes in a stylish wagon, will last ten years without blinking. Unfortunately, she might have to visit the dealer more than she would like. Truly a lost opportunity for the ailing but noteworthy Swede.
I’d second (or third) the Subaru wagon of some kind, however I don’t think there are very many Subaru dealers in Texas. They’re not nearly as popular down there (where AWD isn’t really ever needed) as they are in Vermont and Colorado.
Your mom already figured it out right. Buy the Lexus as it is the most comfortable and reliable.
A Subara? You guys don’t like your moms? What would the neighbours think?
sean362880
You may have read TTAC in the past weeks and seen I to am searching for a new car with similar qualifications.
The difference is I have actually taken the old people’s class on how to dress hysterically, black knee socks, hiked up plaid shorts and striped shirt.
Your mom more than likely has not and still has style.
Her car will be harder to find.
Anyways…the ONE thing all us old people love is vision.
Well, really vision, AND size AND luxury.
I would also consider the Avalon.
That and the more affordable Taurus.
I don’t think the Taurus has cooled seating.
The ES350 is very difficult to see out the back.
As are many of these newer lux cars.
Sounds like she needs a wagon.
A Subaru Outback or Legacy wagon. I hate the Subaru auto’s though they make them feel sluggish when they aren’t sluggish cars even without the turbo.
Are Vovlo’s still bullet proof like they used to be? Maybe a V70.
What about that new Toyota Wagon Camry thing coming out, is it the Vensa or something?
What about a V6 Genesis, no idea about the long time reliability though.
I gotta vote Lexus es350. They make these things for peoples parents. Big, soft, air cond seats and a reasonably good price. I think she found the ride she wanted, this is just an academic exercise.
the volvo is a good choice too, the cult of volvo is strong so it’s natural she’d want to return.
Disclosure: I used to be a Lexus salesperson, and actually didn’t like most of the lineup but this seems to be a fit.
Haven’t heard this one yet, but how about the Buick Enclave? Dazzling styling, premium persona, loads of room, potential for a solid reliability reputation, and some of the creature comforts she might appreciate in a few years that she doesn’t value quite so much right now.
Jaguar XF?
It’s a bit more bling than the Volvo yet still quite understated.
Since the very limited amount of miles that’s going to be driven with the car, mileage isn’t really an issue. Reliability is a bit of a question mark still for the new XF; the engine shouldn’t be a problem but who knows how well Ford designed the electrical circuits? The same goes for the new Volvos by the way. It shouldn’t be dramatically bad though.
Especially seeing the way the car will probably be used the amount of times you’ll have to make unwanted visits to the garage compared to the ES350 will depend more on luck than anything else.
I also second the XC70, with or without the (Yamaha) V8.
Basically, the question is how much of excrutiatingly bland boringness your mother is prepared to put up with to drive a car (the ES350, the most boring appliance that Lexus, maker of boring appliances, has to offer) because in practise it is on average just slightly more reliable than alternatives that provide (a lot) more automotive fun and satisfaction.
Texas…I forgot.
Little snow…
Then look at the Genesis V6!
Sits high.
Room!
Great visability!
Cooled driver’s seat!
Luxury…done affordably!
100K warranty!
More affordable than most.
The nice thing about Dallas is that I don’t have to hear any whining about snow and rear wheel drive (not that your mom is a whiner, but some of guys on this site are).
If the Genesis had the first year under its belt I would recommend it; since it hasn’t demonstrated the first year reliability yet I recommend the Infiniti G35 – in white. Rock solid reliability and the dealers are awesome when it does need to go in. Also, I could fit a ton in the trunk.
Volvos under Ford have no reliability, and the ES350 is just a reliable Buick (and in the Regal sense, not the cool Buick Opel sense).
I have to vote for Infiniti as well. All around great performer and they aren’t as boring as the Lexus. The G sedan or the EX
OK, as someone who deals with a very similar personality who has very similar tastes… these are the top 3.
New Car: 2009 Toyota Camry
You can get virtually everything that a Volvo or Lexus has, including top notch reliability, for thousands less. The V6 version has nearly 100 horsepower more than the classic 960, and the 4-cylinder is yet faster than that old 960 and gets fuel economy in the high 20’s to low 30’s.
Used Car: 1998 Volvo V70
My mom likes to sell jewelry and uses a version of this model whenever she’s in Florida (I buy her one every year). Even compared to today’s models, it offers a fantastic and often superior combination of safety, luxury and utility. The Subaru is good for those who want a taut sporty ride, while the V70 is a far better choice for those looking for a more plush and ‘simple’ driving experience.
I typically avoid the all-wheel drive models because the Haldex system is very expensive to maintain and not needed. Also, Volvo has a nasty problem with their V70 (2001 and up) and XC90 transmissions over the years due to the fact that the recommended maintenance schedule on it is lenient. The 1998 thankfully has the 4-speed automatic which is bulletproof, along with the pre-ECM riddled 1999 – 2002 generation which can be very costly to own.
You can still sometimes find pristine examples of them with under 100k for less than $5500, although it takes time to locate. With 3000 miles of driving a year and the needs and tastes you mentioned, that would be my top choice.
If she WANTS the luxury nameplate, the Lexus or it’s Acura cousin would definitely be fine. But there’s really no need to spend the extra $$$$$.
If it were my mom, I’d recommend the Accord sedan with the bigger 4 cyl. engine. Peppy, safe, roomy, and will run until you stop changing the oil.
Get leather and other toys and she won’t feel like she compromised.
Find a late model, non-rust belt mint Volvo 940 turbo wagon, pay a good Volvo mechanic to give it any and all required refurbishment and drive it. Take it the same shop once a year an have them do whatever it needs.
Well, since she’s your mom and mothers are the most important people in the entire world, I’d say she deserves the very best: Avalon?
You can find them used in Limited spec for like… 25k? Cooled seats, Toyota reliability, big trunk, etc. etc. etc.
the ES350 is just a reliable Buick (and in the Regal sense, not the cool Buick Opel sense)
Actually Buicks are pretty reliable these days, believe it or not. I’d recommend looking at the Lucerne. It’s got a Buick trunk and you can get cooled seats on it.
If tolerance for the shop is nil, then Volvo is out, and Honda, Toyota, and Subaru are in. The CR-V is extremely nice – comfortable, good amount of cargo room, and good fuel economy. If you can’t think of a reason not to get one, get it. The RDX is nice if you want zippy, but it sounds like Acura is out of consideration. Toyotas put me to sleep just thinking about them, so no suggestions here. Obviously the Lexus ES is in consideration, but try the RX too. It drives like a car (albeit one with no physical connection between the steering wheel and the rest of the car), and I’ve seen better deals on the RX than the ES. As far as Subaru goes, try the Outback, but be aware that there have been many complaints about the seats. If your mom has a bad back, try to find a way to take an extended test drive before buying.
Oh, one more thought: see if you can find an ’08 Mazda6 wagon or hatch being closed out as the ’09s arrive.
Honda Accord; pick your engine.
She should take a look at the neat Euro wagons. The extra utility might be welcome.
The sleek Audi A6 sedan or Avant wagon is an excellent choice. It has more style at less cost than than competing German brands. The cabin is attractively designed with top-drawer materials, fit and finish. She could buy one for its luxurious cabin alone, and not be disappointed.
At 3,000 miles per year Audi’s unfortunate maintenance and repair shortcomings are unlikely to become an issue.
If your Mom’s been driving those Volvos, she apparently likes some luxury, so I’m thinking Lexus or another “premium” vehicle. The ES is a good choice. However, I also think there’s no need for your Mom to switch to FWD after all these years… have her buy an IS-350 or IS-250. They’re nice cars, luxurious, very reliable and perform well.
Easy:
1) Lexus ES350, if she likes badges.
2) Toyota Avalon, if she doesn’t.
3) Buick Lucerne, if she wants cheap.
4) Volvo S80, if she’s nostalgic.
5) Lexus LS460, if she’s going to leave it to you.
Robert:
Why not have your Mom look at the Hyundai Azera. She’s not interested in speed, and the Hyundai will have no problem with that request. It’s luxurious, spacious, has a nice power train, and boring, though attractive styling. Reliability is the only question mark, but that long warranty should be able to ease that concern a bit.
I’m thinking about a fun car. The ES350 sounds ok, all around. A GS300/350 is my favority car for her I think. An Accord used or new sounds interesting to many. A TSX I like. An RSX has a nice trunk I think. A Maxima perhaps has good reliability.
The Chrysler 300 feels exactly the same as the Volvo S90 to me.
It has the same silhouette, drive-line layout, weight, power(Chrysler’s 2.7 isn’t an I6, but there are three other engines if she doesn’t want bottom-tier) and fuel economy. Even the HEMI will match the S90’s economy– doubling the power at the same time.
The Buick Lucerne is also a good choice.
Chevy Malibu.
A lot of good suggestions…
I guess you could do the following
1) Take a list of the top 8 interesting ones
2) Have her test drive them
3) Make a decision.
Really, it’s amazing what you can get if you’re looking for a mid to full-sized vehicle these days. My vote is for the Camry but I’m sure that many of the others would be good choices too.
Oh, and just so you know, the S90 mentioned above is really the same thing as the 960. The S90 is just a mildly re-designed version for the 1997 and 1998 model years.
Why not get another Volvo? It sounds like she has a good experience with the brand and their cars are better than ever. They are nice and unique (if expensive) choices but are good cars.
Anyway, Mom needs a big trunk to move art projects around.
The question I have about this requirement is how “big” is defined here. Before I could even begin to suggest any vehicle, I would want to know the cargo space dimensions required to move these art projects. In short, should I be thinking about cubic feet or floorplan square feet, in terms of the cargo area?
Porsche GT3.
Life is short.
The Honda CRV appears to be a really practical vehicle. Reliable, good seat height, lots of cargo room, comfortable. I see lots of women drive those. I just don’t like the look.
no_slushbox
Holy crap!
We don’t whine and we aren’t dissing a car because it doesn’t allow for snow and ice driveability.
Your remark is cheap.
Well, now its sounds like I’m whining.
Next, people, he asked for cooled front seats.
All these Camry and Accord and other suggestions don’t offer her this.
Let’s try to stay focused.
I say Avalon.
Genesis.
And if she can see while backing up…the ES350.
Pick the Ford Flex.
Since it seems like your mother won’t take BMW and Mercedes’ bs, she’ll probably get a kick out of all the goodies that she can get on a plain brand like Ford. Anyway, reliability is on an upswing and she’ll never be lacking for space. And it’s much more car-like, hence safer, than any CUV.
Used Lincoln Aviator/any domestic BOF SUV. Should probably be able to pick up a nice example for around 6-7 dollars, its reasonably luxurious inside, has IRS, it was engineered to survive 150K miles of off roading (with proper tire pressure) and gas consumption shouldn’t matter much if she only drives 3K miles a year. Also, someone might even pay her to take it.
Another vote here for the Lexus. She just won’t be happy with anything less.
The Avalon is quite nice too, and is “almost” at that Lexus level. But she’ll probably have to special order it to NOT get the navigation system…
Avalon – Big, comfortable, and economic. I had one as a pool car for a 4 hr trip and averaged 29mpg while beating the hell out of it. For older folks, it is hard to beat. My god, it has amazing rear room as well.
RX350 – nice car based SUV that has a luxury badge and tons of room for occupants and cargo. It doesn’t get the fuel economy (mid 20s for the non-hybrid) of the Avalon, but it still does rather well. I personally feel that it drives better than the Avalon as well. The new model should be out in December so you can get a killer deal on the outgoing one or get the updated one w/ a new 6AT and better fuel economy.
Your mother sounds like someone who genuinely enjoys driving to a certain degree. The Lexus ES350/Toyota Avalon are designed for people who do not like driving and who simply want their car to ferry them from point a to b in the most comfortable way possible. It seems she would be unhappy with those cars.
I confess my bias right away as a Volvo fan so I am going to suggest several of those cars and get them out of the way. If she would like cooled seats, get an S80. It has a nice big trunk, its luxurious, safe and reliable. A more practical option tho, would be either the C30 or the V50 as they have a huge cargo capacity.
The 2008 Mazda6 hatchback would also likely make a very good choice, especially with its double-wishbone suspension and 212hp V6.
Nissan’s 2009 Maxima is more then likely to be reliable and is available with cooled seats.
The Mini Cooper S Clubman does not have cooled seats, but it is a great way to get around and is very reliable.
But if she is simply looking at a luxury sedan, I would either go with an S80 out of loyalty or either an Infiniti M35 which comes with cooled seats or a Hyundai Genesis which offers the same feature.
Chevy MAXX 2008 SS, plenty of room, speed and good gas mileage. A person doen’t have to do the step up thing and if it is wrong it is so cheap you can resell it and buy something else like a BUICK LeSuern (spelled wrong)
Well she’s already owned two Volvos so why stray? A base Volvo S80 is a nice enough car with plenty of oomph when she needs it.
Another fit would the Toyota Avalon.
I would venture that one of the things Mom liked about her Volvos is the greenhouse. The visibility in the 7 and 9 series Volvos is superb. If she liked those, she will hate the more rounded Volvos (S80, S60, and even the 2001+ V70). At 3,000 miles a year, she should just buy 96-2000 Volvo 850, S70, or V70. It’s very hard to justify a new vehicle for that kind of use.
If she wants to buy new, I’d look hard at the Honda Fit, but that is a small light car and may be too different from a Volvo.
These Volvos and the Honda Fit offer the advantage that she can get a manual transmission if she wants one.
“blindfaith :
September 22nd, 2008 at 1:55 am
Chevy MAXX 2008 SS, plenty of room, speed and good gas mileage. ”
The Malibu Maxx went out of production after the 2007 model year.
I second the Ford Flex. No-BS, plenty of Ford dealers in Texas, one of the best interiors in the industry today. Okay, probably not Volvo-quality seats, but it’s pretty nice nonetheless.
Otherwise, buy her a lightly-used Ranger or B-series pickup with the 2.3 four cylinder in it. Sure, it’ll ride like a truck–and low and behold, it is a truck! But we’re talking cheap, rock solid reliable, and with all the money you save, you can spruce it up with some options and buy a matching fiberglass topper to give her PLENTY of room for hauling around art projects. I’m getting 30+ mpg out of my 06 Ranger XL with the five speed, while my dad’s heavily-optioned Mazda B2300 is getting about 27-28 mpg carrying around all the extra weight of the automatic trans, power locks/windows, tonneau cover, etc.
Your mom seems to have good taste in cars. She should get whatever she wants. End of discussion.
Buick sedan. Does not matter which one. Slightly used if you want to save A LOT of money.
Ultra reliable, ultra comfortable, large trunk. What else would you ask for other than a manual transmission, which I assume she would not be interested in?
Sit her in the new Fit: She doesn’t want a car to drive, she wants and needs an appliance car: Something that gets good mileage from pt a to pt b, hauls a lot of stuff, and is comfortable.
So, in order of budget:
Fit
Civic
Accord/Camry
Avalon
Get the smallest one she’s happy with, with the options she wants.
Lexus ES350 – she’s already mentioned it, and if you talk her into something else, and something goes wrong, it’s your fault.
Very reliable, very comfy, excellent resale, top nothc dealer service – it only lacks in the sporting department, and it sounds like mom isn’t looking for an autocrosser.
The ES350 will not disappoint your mother. It’s important not to disappoint your mother. I repeat, it’s important not to disappoint your mother.
The ES350 is a great car and will satisfy her in the way that an old Volvo does. Nice ride, nice amenities, and safe.
However, I’d suggest another Volvo with the V70 (even the non-turbo I6 has some nice power), the Taurus/Sable or MKS if she wants a big car with amenities for a great deal. Flex if she wants boxy and plenty of cargo room too. And they’re all based on a Volvo chassis if that is a selling-point.
On a side note, I still love my old 760 Turbo but wish it had the later Bosch Motronic setup.
Mom responds!
=============
Dear Dan, What a hoot! Who are all these nice folks who have so much time to ponder my predicament? It was quite a laugh to read their suggestions and I do appreciate all the effort. To be clear, The first Volvo was the 87 Turbo and now have the 96 960 sedan. We’ve rented quite a few of the suggested cars and I can safely say I’ve eliminated all the Camry and Avalon picks for being too boring and strange transmission shift patterns on the automatics. The Avalon is big as a bus for passengers who love the back seat but nothing exciting to drive. The new Volvo S80 or the XC70 would be fine but for the ugly look of the sedan and the overkill of the wagon for my purposes. The sedan has a rear end that looks just like the late 60’s cheap Maverick by Ford. Always hated that car for its pig snout look. sorry to say….The Audi test drive on the A6 was excellent and plenty of room with flexible cargo space. Is it going to be reliable? Who knows? MY Volvo sevice mgr., a very trustworthy fellow I’ve dealt with for so many years, says there have been no problems with the S80’s and that I would probably enjoy the s60 drive better. I agree but it has too small a trunk.
Dan,
Based on your Mom’s feedback (“The Avalon is big as a bus for passengers … but nothing exciting to drive“), she might give some thought to a recent used Volvo V70-R (if she can find one). They don’t look as extreme as the XC-70s. And they move right out. It should have enough cargo room for most purposes.
I believe there’s a review on TTAC… Yep. By Alex Dykes. Best line:
“And you can pin the Labradors to the rear window, blasting from zero to sixty in 5.6 seconds.”
Buick Century. We’ve had several in the extended family and though a little bland they have been good and reliable. Read up on the intake manifold leak. That’s the only problem they have had that I know of.
30+ mpg with three adults on the interstate. Cold a/c. Big trunk. Rides good.
Based on your mom’s comments Dan I would say that she has three excellent choices. I looked up the size of a trunk on the 1997 960 sedan on cars.com (since the 1996 model is not listed) and it shows that it is 16.6 cubic feet. Sadly Volvo no longer makes a sedan that is this big without folding down the back seat. While the V70 would be overkill sizewise for her, a V50 may be ideal. It is over 13 inches shorter then her current Volvo but has front and rear legroom within an inch of her 960 and offers 11 more cubic feet of trunk space with the backseat in place.
As I stated in a previous posting, a 2008 Mazda6 hatchback with the V6 would also satisfy her needs. It offers 22 cubic feet of trunk space with the backseats in place and it is 5 inches shorter then her 960. Although it is out of production I found several brand new Mazda6 hatchbacks listed on cars.com at Texas dealerships.
In 2006 and 2007 Chevrolet made the Malibu Maxx SS. This car is as reliable and as plush as an Avalon but offers way more driving enjoyment. It is also is 4 inches shorter then her current Volvo. Sadly they are hard to find new and although I did see a few new ones on autorader.com none were at Texas dealerships. So your mom would likely have to settle for a certified car or bring one in from an out of state dealership.
To sum up:
2008/2009 Volvo V50
2008 Mazda6 V6 hatchback
2006/2007 Chevy Malibu Maxx SS
After Mom read this thread, her main take-away was “gee, maybe I should go have another look at the Volvo dealer.” In the end, she ended up driving away in a S80 T6 (3.0 liter turbo, AWD). Mileage sucks, but she doesn’t care too much. It’s apparently got a bunch of options, but I don’t have the list yet. Apparently she also got a great deal. Not so many people buying big, high-powered Volvos these days.
So, dear Best & Brightest, thank you for saving my Mom from buying something fantastically bland and boring. Now we just have to see whether this car holds together or not.