Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama is running the above ad, “Revitalize,” in Michigan. Obama hopes to win votes in the key battleground state by accusing of Senator John McCain of “selling out” Michigan workers. In other words, the republican nominee didn’t support $50b in low-interest federal loans. Before he did. Of course, neither that big ass billion dollar number nor the specifics of who might get what are part of the Obama spot. For his part, McCain said… nothing. Automotive News [AN, sub] reports that the Senator from Arizona brought his freshly-minted (and minty fresh) Veep babe to The Wolverine State for a 35-minute appearance. “Surprisingly, the question of whether the government should support General Motors, Ford and Chrysler with guaranteed loans for r&d efforts did not come up during the appearance.” Hey! What about you guys asking? Anyway, John’s nothing if not a seasoned politician. “We may not agree from time to time on a specific issue until I reverse my position,” McCain said. “But I will promise you this: I will never let you down and I will always, always put my country first.” Uh-oh.
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McCain’s campaign has transitioned from “sad” to “comedy gold”
Lets see, how much are we going to give Toyota and Honda since they will build more cars in the US than Ford and Chrysler next year.
Please keep in mind that the Fusion (and all its versions) are built in Mexico and the Edge, Flex, Crown Vic, etc are built in Canada.
Also, Chrysler minivans, 300, Chargers, etc are built in Canada and the Journey, PT Cruiser and over 50% of the pickups are built in Mexico.
Why is everyone forgetting that Obama said that the Big 2.8 are getting what they deserve during the primary?
Sounds as if one candidate was consistently wrong, and the other flip flopped to the wrong position.
Just as the voice over mentions helping Michigan’s auto industry, it appears that the footage shows workers meeting with Obama in the Janesville, Wisconsin plant.
In any case, I hope that they build executive salary caps and quality targets into the bailout until/if GM returns to profitability.
Candidate uses other peoples money to buy votes. Considering the billions wasted on stupidity like globaloney warming and ethanol this is minor.
‘Atlas Shrugged’
“Tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas”
You mean, like the Big 2.8?
http://blogs.motortrend.com/6290814/editorial/should-we-save-detroit/index.html
This article filled me with rage.
Then I read the comments, and it made me even angrier.
better help them until they can turn around the next corner.. better prop them up than go the way of the Brits. yeah, they still make cars in UK, but the profits are repatriated to the mother company’s country, the Brits just appear as operating cost/expenses in the balance sheet…when their car companies were bought/sold to foreigners, they slowly lost their grip as one of the most formidable exporter of ANY goods…germany, for all their faults, are still high-end consumer and military goods manufacturer anchored by the strength of their auto companies..with heaven’s help, our detroit 2 (can’t say anything about chrysler) can muscle up by mid-2011 or early 2012…we’ll show the world again what American might is all about, minus the war.
“The money of the tax payers should not be used to prop up dying businesses, if a company can not survive on its own and make a profit, it should die.”
That would be true if the auto industry was a “dying business”. But it isn’t. Automobiles will always be relevant and profitable. If we don’t help out American auto makers, the foreign companies will just pick up the slack, which hurts the US more in the long run.
Can we please stop referring to certain groups as “inbreds”, like, once and for all?
TransAmLarry (August 26 2008 03:03 PM)
Hello Idiots who have disagreed with Angus’ article. Open your pathetic eyes: this is not simply an article about auto industry, its about heavy industries in general. If any of you disagreeing inbreds worked for a large engineering company, you would know all the tertiary suppliers that create the final product are affected as well. You MUST help the large automakers, not helping them undermines our heavy industries. Unfortunately, we dont graduate as many engineers in the past. And for all the morons who complain about poor american reliability, look what GM has done in a mere 5 years, they are a sleeping giant that has become awake. In fact, most international heavy industries took their ‘high standards’ from two countries: America and Germany. Dont beleive me? Go pick up a history book, or better yet, a Machinery’s Handbook and start educating yourself.
Yes, capitalism is responding to the big three. GM will become #2 very very soon, Ford and Chrysler are struggling. Like a child, they do need to be taught a lesson. But the turnaround that GM is making (I can only talk about GM as I am ignorant of the latter) in terms of quality and re-structuring is showing. People again are proud to buy a Chevy or a Cadillac.
The government also has somewhat of a responsibility; if you can lay down restrictions like CAFE, I think that you can loan a little money to the Big Three. Dont fight a war for a few days, you’ll make it up.
“Tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas.”
Obama’s key motto is “Change.” Obviously, his party, which has been hammering that cliché-and-oversimplified phrase since the Clinton era, is the same damn party in different clothing, so I guess it shouldn’t be surprising the party is still drawing votes from the “can’t someone else do it?” idealists.
Obama represents everything wrong with this country- a bunch of lazy whining people looking for an easy answer by giving the government – which has no idea what to do with money – more of our money in an effort to “save” us.
The only difference between Obama and McCain supporting the auto industry is McCain’s pretty tight firsted and Palin has business experience (beyond, you know, dealing in coke.)
How long will $50B delay the inevitable?
Gee, politicians are acting just like politicians. Trying to buy votes with OPM? (Stunned into silence, slaps forehead with hand.)
Please note that the Fed has decided to take Freddie and Fannie over, proving all those bondholders were right about the bonds being US gov. safe. What’s a few billion amongst friends? The ex-Fannie Mae CEO ain’t giving back his beachfront in Aruba, why would you think the gov will make Ricky give his back?
Besides which, at least 40% of all municipal retirement funds are massively underfunded, much less SS or Medicare or the new next year federal health insurance. $50 Billion? Hah! Chump change…
I’d rather have them get their bailout than see them go into Chapter 11, struggle mightily to regain consumer trust, see them go into chapter 7 and be doomed to a life of nothing but soulless hybrids on the road.
Oh no, Chapter 11 is the path to redemption for Detroit. It’ll allow them to shed excess dealers and restructure their UAW contract so they can return to profitability much more quickly.
… but how are they going to regain consumer confidence if it’s pretty low to begin with? If they can’t attract buyers, even with awesome cars, then chapter 11 would be a big mistake.
@ Bill Wade
let’s see… $50b divided by 3…oh, hell,maybe 2 weeks?
ask what your country can do for you, not what you can do for your country
My head too is spinning from all the flip-flopping, half-truths, headaches when I try to find out the actual facts, etc. But CliffG called it right–that’s just what politicians do.
A digression about the minty fresh veep babe: I find it funny that they believe that she will win former Hillary supporters. Ms. Palin is short on experience (which McSame blasted Obama for) and a bit too far to the right for most moderate-to-liberal women. I’d love to see a woman as VP, but the right one, not just someone picked as a blatant pander. Whither Condie Rice or Kay Bailey Hutchison?
OK, digression over. Maybe one day I can find out what each candidate’s specific plans and ideas are rather than just slants one way or the other as the media tends to provide.
CliffG:
Gee, politicians are acting just like politicians. Trying to buy votes with OPM? (Stunned into silence, slaps forehead with hand.)
We have to stop somewhere. Right?!?
What’s next? Loans for Delphi?
How about Mortgage Stamps for the unemployed behind on their house?
We have to stop somewhere…
The electoral math is tough for Obama without Michigan. Props to McCain for being fiscally tighter. Of course, he’ll probably lose.
But this bailout could have some backlash effect on the big 2.8. A lot of informed people are leery about their products, NOW. Publicized corporate welfare may turn leeriness into anger and further tank sales.
ihatetrees
But this bailout could have some backlash effect on the big 2.8. A lot of informed people are leery about their products, NOW. Publicized corporate welfare may turn leeriness into anger and further tank sales.
Excellent point! In fact, you’ve got my Death Watch wheels a ‘turnin’.
That’s true. People don’t want to be associated with a loser company, and with a bailout, not only does the whole industry admit to being a failure, but now they’re stealing your money as well.
I don’t see why Chrysler is even being considered for a bailout. They’re a privately held company. 20% is owned by Daimler (German). The rest is owned by a company that is not in financial trouble (why should the government pony up before Cerberus does?). And if you look at their product plans, they want to outsource the whole damn car making business.
On the Publicized Corporate Welfare front, I doubt the traditional media will touch it from that angle, because it could open up a can of worms that might bite the hand that feeds them (no pun consciously intended).
The media could approach it from the angle of ‘hey, they’ve been producing crap for twenty years, you wanna give them money for that?’ That could be defused by allowing all manufacturers to participate and tying the plan to US manufacturing. Honda gets more if they build more cars at US plants. Ford gets more if they pull back out of Mexico. This would also be a major political bonus on the ‘jobs’ front.
Realistically, automaker bailout is going to happen. What might be changeable are the contours of the plan.
I just don’t see how people can think that giving The Big 2.8 money will do anything but delay the inevitable. Give them the money and we’ll be back here in three to four years, just in time for the next batch of Presidential wannabes to bail them out again.
Is this a side effect of NAFTA? Making it easy to offshore everything and anything?
Who signed off on NAFTA? Dems or Repubs? All of them?
I still tend to look at our problems as more of a class struggle than political.
Atlas Shrugged indeed…
“Lets see, how much are we going to give Toyota and Honda since they will build more cars in the US than Ford and Chrysler next year.”
A statement like this leaves a lot to be desired. Can we ask where the Machine tooling is engineered? Where the machine tooling is made? Where the car is engineered and tested? How much of the car is simply assembled? When the united states is used as third world country for just it’s labor to trick the brilliant American public into beliveing the car is built here. And, the majority of people think that equals a car that is conceived, designed engineered tested and made with the extra costs of medical coverage, SS, and all the other crap of American social programs and still makes a competitive car ( Buick Lesabre 3.8, 250,000, 28 mpg, no major repairs).
All I know is that the next Prez better get to work on the 10,000,000,000,000 tab that we’re running, because many of the “quality automobiles” that the Big 2.2285 produce will still be sitting on the lots as fewer citizens each year will be able to afford them.
Look. We have a market economy which means that sellers offer what the buyers (public) want and react to in ways desired by the sellers. After tons of market research, focus groups, and decades of experience with what works, both candidates are spewing bullshit instead of the truth. Now why would that be?.
Sarah will be different.
mel23 wrote: “Sarah will be different.”
Why would you think she would be different? She brought more earmarks to Alaska than to any other state, per population. Taxpayers also fund an evangelical college. When she became mayor of Wasilla, the earmarks went from zero to $27 million. So, for a town with a population of 9,000, that comes to $3000 in U.S. taxpayer dollars for every man, woman and child. She hired a Washington DC lobbying firm to obtain even more money for her state. She was for the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against it.
She is closely aligned with James Dobson and is therefore part of the evangelical Republican social conservative movement. She said that the war in Iraq was “God’s Will.” McCain therefore appears to be a stalking horse for yet another leader who say they get instructions directly from God (unless they think they are talking to God, but are perhaps talking to the Devil).
$50 Billion is peanuts compared to Bush’s bailout of Fannie and Freddie. That will likely be in the Trillions.
mikeloan,
I think you have Obama confused with the Republicans.
As for change, the last 8 years have ran this country into the ground and we definitely need a change at this point. Putting another Republican in control is not change – it’s doing the same thing over again.
Now that the Feds took over the two mortgage company hopefully if they decide to bail out the big three they will jettison the dead weight at the top permanently.
Carlos, you hit the nail on the head about Ms. Palin. Frightening to think she might be one step from the presidency when she feels that the war is God’s will, and when, in her own words, said she didn’t know much about it and had not focused on it much. Oh and she wants to set women’s rights back 50 years and for creationism to be taught in public schools as science (which it isn’t). And how again do they think they’re going to rally Hillary supporters? Not clear on that logic yet either.
thank you carlos.negros and cgd!
anyone that wants to elect a V.P. that thinks the earth started 5000 years ago is completely insane. unfortunately, that also means you can’t reason with them.
blindfaith: A statement like this leaves a lot to be desired. Can we ask where the Machine tooling is engineered? Where the machine tooling is made? Where the car is engineered and tested? How much of the car is simply assembled?
Yep, I’ve heard arguments like this for years now. Listen the profits go to the stock holders regardless of where the home offices are located. You too can be part owners of Honda and Toyota and Nissan.
Good thing about Toyota and Honda is they do have American people employed making cars, parts for cars and selling cars. GM isn’t doing as well.
Wish they were but as talked about here in TTAC they have alot of corporate baggage that they let hold them back. I think they are a little better but they need a track record to prove their intentions and that will take 5+ years. Let’s hope they keep it up and that they CAN keep it up (not go broke).
I worked for an American company who builds automated assembly and test equipment for GM, Chrysler, Ford, Visteon, Denso (Toyota), Aisin (Japanese), Borg-Warner (turbos), etc. We were doing a fair bit of trade with the Asians as well as the domestics.
There were some significant differences though and one notable one was that the Asians just wanted stuff to work right and to build good parts – no excuses. The domestics often sent their parts for assembly and tests (assembly system testing) that didn’t even meet their own specs.
Constantly project manager shuffling on their part. Personnel problems. Labor problems. The Asian companies were steady as a rock and much easier to work with if quality targets were matched.
The domestics supplied parts, we were told, that were GOOD ENOUGH. Not good enough when we can’t build assemblies from their parts that meet their own specs because of casting or machining variations.
We also had problems with their plastic components being fragile or brittle or not sized right.
One coworker related a story where his task was to build a chiller to chill Chrysler minivan plastic parts so they would not crack during assembly on the assembly line. How well do you think they would age with under the hood heat? Many times people would come away from projects declaring they would never buy a certain model of vehicle b/c of questionable quality.
FWIW most of the guys drove domestics so it’s not like we were a bunch of Toyota or Honda drivers wanting to hate the domestics.
I have several friends who work for companies that build parts for both the domestic car makers and the import auto makers and each relate the same experiences.
The domestic customers won’t pay for testing a large quantity of batch parts – they want to test the minimum necessary for the lowest delivered price. Cheap.
My friends work for companies who also sell parts to Asian car companies and most of those customers have agreements which require (at a higher delivered cost) a much higher percentage of the parts tested. If parts are delivered for assembly at these “import” factories (across the SE USA) and found to have a high defect rate these are all sent back at the supplier’s cost to be reinspected at the supplier’s cost. Get it right if you want to make a profit doing business with us and we’ll pay you a fair price.
These parts are engineered, manufactured, and delivered by Americans to “import” and “domestic” customers alike.
So the in the cases I have mentioned the domestics have the opportunity to receive parts of equal quality to those used on the supposedly superior “imports” (made in the USA) but they don’t make deals where their suppliers can afford to take all of the same care as the import companies.
I wonder what it costs to produce a part to Toyota standards with typical Toyota batch inspection levels vs producing a part for Ford at the inspection rates they will pay for. Bet the difference would be small. This one way a manufacturer can strive to remove cost from their product and end up taking quality out as well.
So the domestics could lower their profit percentage in order to get a better product which would maintain a proper quality image. I suspect that the competition (Toyota/Honda/etc) would simply raise the bar a bit more and the domestics would still be playing catch-up.
Lastly all of the machining and molds that all these supplier companies (that I know of) use is done locally or within the continental USA. In the cases I know best it is done within the same county whenever possible.
For me to be a GM customer it wouldn’t take much to get my attention. Build more Mazda like products (ie more Opel like products) with Honda or Toyota quality from 5 years ago at a fair price. The finished vehicle needs to be at least in the top half of the average miles per gallon unlike the Aveo and it should be common for the vehicles to reach 200K miles with good looks intact.
I have friends with Saturns and none are reaching much past 150K miles without needing an engine or transmission. Falling headliners STILL!
Saturn is the GM division most likely to get my business b/c I don’t need or want a large vehicle.
carlos.negros: She brought more earmarks to Alaska than to any other state, per population.
A red herring argument. Given that Alaska has such a small population, and even a state with a small population needs roads and other infrastructure, this is a meaningless statistic.
carlos.negros: Taxpayers also fund an evangelical college.
Another red herring argument. Apparently you are unaware that virtually ALL private colleges – both secular and religious – receive some state and federal support. Come to my office in the Pennsylvania Capitol, and I can run down the list of secular private colleges that receive direct state support.
Apparently, you have something against evangelical colleges, as you keep mentioning this fact (without putting it into proper context, either out of ignorance, or on purpose).
You are against government support for evangelical colleges (although I note that you never complain about RELIGIOUS private colleges, as not all religious-affiliated colleges are evangelical). Obviously, you don’t like your tax dollars being funneled to an institution with a purpose or code of conduct that you don’t like.
Fine – I’m sure then, that you support allowing individuals who opt out of enrolling their children in public schools for whatever reason to not pay taxes that support an institution that conveys a message or values antithetical to theirs.
After all, to take any other stand would make you a hypocrite, now wouldn’t it?
carlos.negros: When she became mayor of Wasilla, the earmarks went from zero to $27 million. So, for a town with a population of 9,000, that comes to $3000 in U.S. taxpayer dollars for every man, woman and child.
Mayors do not control earmarks given out by the federal government. That is lobbied for by a state’s federal delegation of legislators in Congress.
carlos.negros: $50 Billion is peanuts compared to Bush’s bailout of Fannie and Freddie. That will likely be in the Trillions
And when the Congress, which is controlled by the Democrats, vote it down (as they must approve it, too), and Senator Obama comes out against it, let me know.
Incidentally, if this is a “bailout” like the one granted Bears Stearns, it is only a bailout to the uninformed, as the Bears Stearns shareholders came out the losers , and the employees lost their jobs. The federal “rescue” prevented a larger collapse of the banking structure.
This is exactly WHY progressives lobbied for the formation of the federal reserve in the early 1900s. They were concerned that one man – J.P. Morgan – had to step in with his own money and prevent the Panic of 1907 from taking down the entire economy. Note that this was J.P. Morgan the MAN, not J.P. Morgan the company. The federal reserve was designed to perform this same function, without allowing one person to have this much control over the entire economy.
The Education Department can provide funds to schools with religious affiliations, but not to religious curriculum. See below.
“. . . critics of the faith-based initiative got a boost last week when the U.S. Department of Education suspended a $435,000 grant for Alaska Christian College, an unaccredited, one-year school run by the Evangelical Covenant Church.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based group, had filed a lawsuit contending that the grant amounted to an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. After sending an inspector to visit the Alaskan school in July, the Education Department agreed. The inspector’s report said the curriculum was “almost entirely religious.”
Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, said that over the past two years, Congress earmarked nearly $1 million for the bible school, about $20,000 per student. She called the money “religious pork” brought home by Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), who took credit for this year’s $435,000 grant in a November press release.
Gaylor’s group agreed to drop its lawsuit following the grant’s suspension. In a letter to the Alaska school, the Education Department explained that it can provide funds to schools with religious affiliations, but the money must be used for secular purposes.”
For the full article, use this link.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/19/AR2005101902122.html
Note that Palin engaged professional Washington DC lobbying firms in order to increase her state’s take of U.S. taxpayer money. Tell me why each resident of Alaska get $1000 as a handout from the oil and gas companies when they are drilling on FEDERAL PUBLIC LAND. Why shouldn’t this money go to the U.S. treasury?
When Palin couldn’t build the bridge to nowhere, she didn’t give the money back. She spent it on a road to nowhere.
That is what the Republicans are for America. They are a road to nowhere.
Instead of giving away this money as a welfare check, why doesn’t Alaska use it to pay for their own infrastructure? I’ll tell you why. This state and governor make Tom Delay look like a boy scout. If anyone really believes that the fact that Alaska has a border with Russia qualifies Palin in foreign policy, then vote for her. You will get the VP you deserve.
carlos.negros: The Education Department can provide funds to schools with religious affiliations, but not to religious curriculum. See below.
Thank you for clearing that up. But even under this standard, both federal and state governments can still give money to evangelical colleges and universities, which appeared to be what originally upset you.
There is nothing to stop the federal government from providing money to a private college for a new dormitory, science center or student union building, whether the money is going to a secular private college (University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, for example), an evangelical private college (Alaska Christian College) or a religious private college that is not necessarily evangelical (Grove City College in northwestern Pennsylvania, for example).
carlos.negros: Gaylor’s group agreed to drop its lawsuit following the grant’s suspension. In a letter to the Alaska school, the Education Department explained that it can provide funds to schools with religious affiliations, but the money must be used for secular purposes.”
As I said before, if you don’t want your tax dollars going to organizations with a message you don’t support, then you also support the rebate of tax dollars to those parents who home-school their children, or use private schools, because they don’t agree with the teaching methods or message of public schools.
Unless, of course, you are a hypocrite.
carlos.negros: Note that Palin engaged professional Washington DC lobbying firms in order to increase her state’s take of U.S. taxpayer money.
Apparently you don’t know that virtually all states do this. The way to end this is to reduce the flow of money to Washington, D.C. The federal government can’t dole out what it doesn’t have. When you take that stand, let me know, but until then, you get what you deserve.
carlos.negros: Tell me why each resident of Alaska get $1000 as a handout from the oil and gas companies when they are drilling on FEDERAL PUBLIC LAND. Why shouldn’t this money go to the U.S. treasury?
Because, one, federally owned land is taken off a state’s tax rolls and shut off from further development, except under the direction of the federal government, and, two, given that drilling is occurring in Alaska, it stands to reason that residents should be compensated for it, and three, all U.S. residents still benefit from the sale of this oil and gas, either in the U.S. or in overseas markets.
You also missed part of the story. Let me fill you in on the rest. Governor Palin was a driving force in raising a tax on oil companies last year that will help swell the state’s budget surplus.
The increase will, at current prices, raise oil revenue to $11 billion this year — almost twice what the state needs to fund its government — state documents show.
carlos.negros: If anyone really believes that the fact that Alaska has a border with Russia qualifies Palin in foreign policy, then vote for her. You will get the VP you deserve.
As opposed to believing that serving as a community organizer and one term as a U.S. Senator (most of which was spent running for president) is somehow better training than being governor of a state, let alone serving in the federal government for over 25 years…?
As someone who works in government, I can assure you that serving as governor is FAR more demanding than being a first-term U.S. senator. Governors, even of small states, have to be on top of virtually everything that the state does.
geeber wrote:
“Because, one, federally owned land is taken off a state’s tax rolls and shut off from further development, except under the direction of the federal government, and, two, given that drilling is occurring in Alaska, it stands to reason that residents should be compensated for it, and three, all U.S. residents still benefit from the sale of this oil and gas, either in the U.S. or in overseas markets.”
Federally owned land was never taken off the state’s tax rolls. It was never on the tax rolls. Just because there is drilling in Alaska and each Alaskan gets a $1000 bribe, that does not make it fair. What about the citizens of West Virginia, where mountaintops have been decapitated, and clear streams turned black by “clean coal”? Do they get some baksheesh too? Will the folks in Colorado get money for shale? Will the folks in Florida start getting a check when little tar balls make their beaches look like those in Houston?
Your argument regarding home schooling is bogus. I never said I supported home schooling. That is a typical Republican strawman argument. I agree with California. Children can be home schooled if they are taught by certified teachers. Otherwise, we get too many future Bush and Palin voters. School is mandatory. If parents keep their children away in order to teach them that Noah had an arc and the animals walked on the arc two by two, the parents should go to jail.
Remember, Senator Obama didn’t just get elected to represent one of the largest states. He is also an entrepreneur. He earned $4 million last year from his book sales. He is a best-selling author. Is that not a legitimate business? And what about his teaching for 11 years at the U of Chicago Law school. Is that not honest work? What about his work for a law firm? Does that not compare with Sarah Pallin’s swimsuit contest?
You keep telling us that you work for the GOVERNMENT. Wow. I am impressed. Is it for FEMA? The IRS? Are you working for the FBI? If so, too bad you guys didn’t circulate those photos back in 2001 when the dumbass in the WH got that report telling him we were going to get attacked. Nice job, Brownie.
carlos.negros: Federally owned land was never taken off the state’s tax rolls. It was never on the tax rolls.
If it was never ON the state’s tax rolls, it further proves my point. Thank you.
This is why Alaskans deserve to be compensated for land that is within the state’s borders but not really under the state’s control, or on its tax rolls.
carlos.negros: What about the citizens of West Virginia, where mountaintops have been decapitated, and clear streams turned black by “clean coal”? Do they get some baksheesh too?
The land in West Virginia was owned by the coal companies. Please compare apples to apples.
This also occurred long before Senators McCain and Obama and Governor Palin were on the scene. The latter two weren’t born yet, and Senator McCain was still in diapers when most of this occurred.
carlos.negros: Your argument regarding home schooling is bogus.
No, it’s valid. You just can’t counter it, because, like many on the left, you aren’t informed enough about the subject and aren’t sophisticated enough to think outside the “big government” box.
carlos.negros: I never said I supported home schooling. That is a typical Republican strawman argument.
I never said that you did. I figured you aren’t informed enough to understand this point.
You also can’t quite wrap your mind around the concept that if you don’t want your tax dollars supporting an activity that is repugnant to you, then you need to support others with the same goal, even if they are on the opposite side of the ideological spectrum.
carlos.negros: I agree with California. Children can be home schooled if they are taught by certified teachers.
Nonsense. There is no proof that certified teachers do a better job of teaching home-schooled students than parents do. (You also appear to be unaware that California is backpedaling from this dumb decision.)
What really bothers you is that some people are thinking for themselves, and not relying on public education, and doing a job in educating their children that is either just as good as or superior to the one by those certified teachers.
You like to portray yourself as this independent, free-thinking person because you oppose the Bush Administration.
In reality you are just another big-government statist drone who is poorly informed about the things like home-schooling because you go by what you think you know (or what the teacher’s union tells you).
Unfortunately, what you really know plus $5 wouldn’t buy a bag of horse manure at the Pennsylvania Farm Show.
You need to leave this discussion to those who are better informed.
carlos.negros: School is mandatory. If parents keep their children away in order to teach them that Noah had an arc and the animals walked on the arc two by two, the parents should go to jail.
This from the same person who wails about freedoms being curtailed by the Bush Administration. But you would throw people into jail for the henious crime of choosing to guide the education of their children outside their local school district.
Incredible, and the height of ignorance.
I had a sneaking suspicion you were a typical left-wing hypocrite; now I know that you are.
Let me educate you – parents have a right to guide the education of their children. They have a right to teach their children their religious beliefs. For some people, this will be outside the public school system. If you and the National Education Association (NEA) don’t like that, tough.
Please feel free to mind your own business.
Incidentally, there are people who send their children to private Christian and Catholic schools, where they are taught about Noah and the ark. I guess you would throw them into jail, too.
From now on, your wailing about freedoms being curtailed by those mean Republicans will be dismissed out of hand, because you appear quite eager to restrict basic freedoms yourself.
carlos.negros: Remember, Senator Obama didn’t just get elected to represent one of the largest states. He is also an entrepreneur. He earned $4 million last year from his book sales. He is a best-selling author. Is that not a legitimate business?
Based on that standard, we could elect Rush Limbaugh, Oprah Winfrey or even Brock Yates as president, as they are best-selling authors, too.
And Rush and Oprah have succeeded in other mediums (Rush on radio, Oprah on television), too, which I guess makes them even more qualified.
carlos.negros: And what about his teaching for 11 years at the U of Chicago Law school. Is that not honest work? What about his work for a law firm? Does that not compare with Sarah Pallin’s swimsuit contest?
Apparently you are also unaware that she was a mayor, which is much more demanding than teaching at a university. Having been to both college and graduate school and worked in government – as opposed to relying on talking points from the Senator Obama campaign – I can assure that while there are many fine teachers in our institutions of higher education, success in this field does not automatically translate into success in an elected position, even for the good ones.
carlos.negros: Are you working for the FBI? If so, too bad you guys didn’t circulate those photos back in 2001 when the dumbass in the WH got that report telling him we were going to get attacked. Nice job, Brownie.
Considering that most of the planning for 9/11 occured prior to January 20, 2001, and it was Clinton appointee Jamie Gorelick who went beyond what was legally required regarding restrictions on information sharing between various agencies, it appears as though your ire is misdirected.
Geepers Creepers Geeber, you wrote that long response on Taxpayer dollars? Perhaps you are one of the paid propagandists that the Bush administration hired to appear as “experts” on news shows.
That you could compare evil Bush, the torturer, with the fact that children by law must attend school, just shows how demented you are.
Whatever moral compass you use, be it that which reinforced slavery, aparthied, the subjugation of women, conquest, or genocide, it is putrid and rotting.
I don’t have time to respond to so many lies, but I will say this, Dick, I will never go hunting with you.
carlos.negros: That you could compare evil Bush, the torturer, with the fact that children by law must attend school, just shows how demented you are.
Nice attempt to dodge the issue. The issue wasn’t whether children must attend school. The issue was whether parents should be allowed to homeschool their children. YOU are the one who advocates throwing people in jail for homeschooling their children.
carlos.negros: Whatever moral compass you use, be it that which reinforced slavery, aparthied, the subjugation of women, conquest, or genocide, it is putrid and rotting.
Considering that those issues have not been discussed on this thread, I would suggest that you refrain from attempting to divine other posters’ views on various subjects. Your attempt at mind-reading has failed miserably.
carlos.negros: I don’t have time to respond to so many lies, but I will say this, Dick, I will never go hunting with you.”
Translation – you can’t refute my points, have been called out on your ridiculous positions, and so now are taking your marbles home to sulk.
A little education here, carlos – stick to cars, as you are clearly in over your head on other subjects.
Here is an example of Geeber’s lies:
Geeber wrote:
carlos.negros: What about the citizens of West Virginia, where mountaintops have been decapitated, and clear streams turned black by “clean coal”? Do they get some baksheesh too?
“The land in West Virginia was owned by the coal companies. Please compare apples to apples.
This also occurred long before Senators McCain and Obama and Governor Palin were on the scene. The latter two weren’t born yet, and Senator McCain was still in diapers when most of this occurred.”
This is a lie. The destruction took place during the Bush Administration, before the Democrats took back the Congress in 2006. But I do agree with one thing you said: “McCain was in diapers.” Perhaps you should have said, Depends.
“West Virginia Groups Sue to Stop Mountaintop Removal Mining Permit
Black Castle Mine will destroy miles of streams, valleys
November 2, 2005
Huntington, WV — Local conservation groups today filed a lawsuit challenging the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ approval of a mountaintop removal-mining permit that will destroy tens of thousands of feet of streams and valleys near the Black Castle Mine in Boone County, WV. Today’s action is on the heels of additional litigation filed in September challenging the Camp Branch Surface Mine permit, another mountaintop removal project located in southern West Virginia that will cause extensive environmental damage.
“The Corps failed to follow the law when they issued both of these permits,” said Janet Keating, co-director of Ohio Valley Environmental Coalition (OVEC). “The Corps has repeatedly ignored evidence showing that mountaintop removal mining destroys the environment, harms the economy and degrades the lives of West Virginians, and has approved these permits without proper review. Our lawsuits send them a message to start complying with the law and stop blowing up our mountains.”
Today’s filing in the United States District Court for the Southern District of West Virginia (No. 3:05-0784) is on behalf of OVEC, Coal River Mountain Watch, and West Virginia Highlands Conservancy, who are represented by Earthjustice and the Appalachian Center for the Economy and the Environment. The filing challenges the Army Corps of Engineers’ August 2005 approval of Elk Run Coal Company’s Black Castle Mine in violation of the Clean Water Act and the National Environmental Policy Act.
The discharge of fill from this mountaintop removal project would permanently destroy over 13,000 linear feet of jurisdictional streams and fill nine nearby valleys. The Corps approved this permit without requiring an Environmental Impact Statement, which would have fully analyzed the impacts of smothering the streams and filling the valleys. The Corps did not require any additional studies, despite the fact that Elk Run Coal has failed to explore any alternatives to destroying the nine valleys.
“Mountaintop removal mining has already destroyed over 800 square miles of West Virginia land and more than a thousand miles of headwater streams that flowed from those mountains,” said Cindy Rank of the West Virginia Highlands Conservancy. “There is no excuse to say that this activity has ‘no significant impact’ on the environment, as the Corps alleges. We are losing our land and a huge part of our cultural heritage with each of these mining permits that the Corps of Engineers approves. If this permit approval continues, by the end of this decade we will lose up to 2,200 square miles of land in Appalachia, an area equal in size to the entire state of Delaware. This destruction has got to stop.”
Last week, the Environmental Protection Agency issued a final Environmental Impact Statement on the practice of mountaintop removal mining that continues to endorse this devastating mining practice.
“Rather than make some effort to protect our lands, our homes and our heritage, the Bush administration and EPA are just continuing their business as usual: more handouts to the coal industry,” said Janice Nease, with Coal River Mountain Watch. “Big coal has a stranglehold on West Virginia. Instead of planning for our future, they’re destroying our past and turning profits from our misery. This mine and others throughout the state are serving only the interests of coal barons and corporate profits, and every West Virginian is forced to pay the price.”