In fairness, Lieberman might say he’s not grumpy about the Audi S4 having only 333 horsepower, since the last generation S4 with the V8 cranked out 340 ponies. That’s a decrease dude, and in the car biz it’s nearly unheard of (unless you’re Acura, in which case it’s typical to botch successive generations of a model). So what gives? The new supercharged V6 has a little more torque than the outgoing V8, better fuel economy, and is a little lighter. But what’s really going on here, in this writer’s rarely humble opinion, is that Audi is repositioning the S4. Where it used to be a dead on competitor for the BMW M3, they’re pitching it now at the BMW 335i. The real Audi competition for the M3 is the RS4, which matches the M3’s insanely high-revving V8 and approximates the horsepower at 420. In the meantime, the S4 does what the 260 horsepower A4 3.2 can’t – go toe to toe with higher horsepower cars from the competition. The big question then is whether Audi will be able to price the S4 low enough to make it a viable BMW 335i/Infiniti G37 alternative. My gut says no, not gonna happen. The S4 will price itself out of the competition.
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The americans shouldn’t whine so much about prices. In Europe, those cars are almost double the price. Actually, most cars are more expensive in Europe than in the U.S. In effect, the rest of the world subsidizes the americans taste in cars. So, shut up and enjoy the feast before it’s over…
Couldn’t find prices for the S4, but the A4 3.2 Quattro is roughly $58.000 in Sweden, and that’s even before choosing colors and upholstery. Almost 20k more than the one tested by Megan Benoit.
So long as they still make the S4 Avant, I’ll be happy having my jack-of-all-trades-if-I-win-the-lottery to aspire to.
Audi’s own published 0-62 mph time for the new S4 is 5.1 seconds, vs. a published 5.9 for the outgoing model, so even if the new car’s HP rating is lower, the actual output is likely the same or higher. That, plus better gearing (7 speed DSG – er – “S-Tronic”) will mean better performance.
The positioning of the car makes sense to me:
2.0T = no effective BMW or MB competitor (due to pricing)
3.2 = 328ix/C300 4-matic
S4 = 335ix/C350
RS4 = M3/C63
As for the Avant, Audi’s making one, but it doesn’t look like it will make the trip to the US. Stay tuned….
Yeah! Americans should stop whining so much about prices and shutup and enjoy the feast until it’s over.
whiny wankers.
Ingvar
Superficially, this is very true. But three quick points:
1. Europeans get 5-10 times as many configurations as the American market (usually toward the small-displacement end of the market, naturally). This requires a LOT of additional inventory planning and manufacturing flexibility, for which somebody has to pay.
2. VAT and end-user purchase taxes eat up quite a bit of that price difference, as well.
3. The US is a very high volume market for cars, so in addition with limiting our selection (#1), manufacturers generally sell a lot more units at presumably a lower margin.
Shopping for cars in the US is like going to Walmart–you’ll get a great deal, but you’re very limited on selection.
“Europeans get 5-10 times as many configurations as the American market (usually toward the small-displacement end of the market, naturally). This requires a LOT of additional inventory planning and manufacturing flexibility, for which somebody has to pay.”
I don’t think there is so much additional inventory. As I get it, there’s some inventory, and the rest is supply-on-demand. If you want engine configuration so-and-so, you’ll have to wait so-and-so many months. If you want a car right away, you’ll have to do with what the dealer has on hand. The point is, I don’t think that this system is so much more expensive than ordering a lot of same-configurated cars at a set price. If Volkswagen can produce a vast amount of different bodied cars (based on the same platform) on the same production line, configurating your car with different choices of engine, color, upholstery and trim options is not that difficult or expensive. It’s only a matter of planning and logistics.
Jonny’s grumpy? Impossible!
Ever since the 335i and RS4 appeared, it’s been clear that the S4’s new mission would be to take on the former. The sticker price hasn’t reflected this, but with the new one it probably will. They’re not going to charge as much for a supercharged six as they did for an eight.
Heck, part of the reason for using the supercharged six is no doubt to better compete with the 335i in terms of fuel economy and price.
But is the S designation still warranted? Maybe not. This essentially admits that it takes a semi-special Audi to match a mainstream BMW.
By the way, TTAC’s price comparison tool can be used to check out how the 2008s compared. Looks like the BMW was $6,000 less before adjusting for feature differences, and about $7,500 less afterwards. So, as suggested above, the past difference is sizable.
OTOH, when I last visited an Audi dealer they had a few 2008 S4s with $8,000 discounts. Just a coincidence that this brought the price down to 335 levels?
ZCD2.7T – where will the ’09 CTS-V fit in your breakdown? Performance-wise, price-wise?
It seems to me that the initial numbers coming out on the CTS-V put all of those cars to shame on the fun-for-your-dollar scale.
Enthusiasts that want an S4 badly enough will shell out whatever is asked by Audi and happily pump expensive fuel into their new rides. Their challange is finding roads and locales for which the S4 can be driven at the limits they desire, without wiping out other cars, pedestrians, themselves, etc.
Still, the S4’s not RWD, the latter proving time and again the enthusiast’s choice for ultimate driving pleasure. Perhaps someday, Audi and/or whoever will figure out how to get an AWD car to steer from _both_ ends by use of controls driver has at hand.
Michael Karesh :
“…This essentially admits that it takes a semi-special Audi to match a mainstream BMW.”
Interesting thinking, to me, that you would put so much importance on the “S” tag.
BMW USED to make cars called “M-Sport”, which looked like the high-performance “M” models, but without the big HP. They don’t make those anymore, as far as I’m aware.
Audi’s “S” is akin to BMW’s old “M-Sport”, which is exactly where the 335 is (it would be an “M-Sport” if that still existed in BMW-land)
Audi’s “RS” cars are clearly aimed directly at “M” and “AMG” cars.
Personally, I tend to look at price points comparably equippped, and then compare performance based on that. This, I’d propose, is how most people buy cars – not based on whether the badge says “S”, “RS”, or “M”.
All of that said, the game clearly changed when BMW decided to equip a “normal” Dreier with a 300+ HP turbo six, so Audi and MB have had to respond. Making the A4 distinctly larger and more comfortable than its obvious German competitors will prove to be a good move on Audi’s part, I’d wager.
I don’t see much of a reason for Audi to continue making the 3.2 if they are moving the S to complete with the 335. Anyone wanting an A4 should go with that sweet sweet 2.0T engine; and if you want something more, take the step up to the S4. Sometimes it is better to have less choices (just ask GM).
$41k for a 2.0T A4 with the Prestige package (whatever that is). 41 grand. For an A4.
Uh-huh.
$41k for a 2.0T A4 with the Prestige package (whatever that is). 41 grand. For an A4.
Uh-huh.
You mean you can’t believe it’s that cheap because you just emigrated from Europe so you expected it to be 10+K more than 41K, right?
A V6 should be shorter than a V8, allowing the V6 to extend less far forward in the engine compartment. Thus there is both a weight benefit and a weight-distribution benefit.
It’s not reasonable for the S4 to compete with the M3 anymore. It’s now a matchup between Audi’s best compact vs. BMW’s best compact. But you are right: Audi’s S4 will likely cost way more than the 335i or G37, and won’t be a very good buy, even with easy aftermarket mods.
@ JJ
LOL!
Just the opposite. If I price out a 328i (w/o all wheel drive), I’m looking at 38k, which also surprises me, as I thought the 3’s started around 33k.
According to this, the BMW is a couple grand less than a 4 cyl. A4. That’s some balls on Audi’s part. 3k for all wheel drive? No thanks.
This is the same nonsensical pricing that made my wife go with a 3 series a couple of years ago. She really liked both, but the BMW was/is a more fun car for less money. Wasn’t a tough decision. Looks like Audi is still okay with that.
An ’08 G35 fully loaded w/ Premium Pack and NAV can be had for a little under $35K. Best deal in this segment hands down.
An ‘08 G35 fully loaded w/ Premium Pack and NAV can be had for a little under $35K. Best deal in this segment hands down.
If a “sport” sedan has only two pedals on the floor, it is NOT a sport sedan.
Leave the slushbox for the poseurs. I prefer three pedals and rowing through the gears myself…
Besides, NAV systems are for wimps. I’ve seen many examples of these idiots either smacked into another vehicle or wrapped around a telephone pole because they are busy staring at the damn NAV system instead of paying attention to the road…
I’ve logged over 1,000,000 miles in 30 years without a NAV system. A NAV system is just another reason for the dealership to coerce a car buyer into trading their hard-earned $$$$ in favor of grabbing their ankles and receiving an electronic suppository…
As for the Avant, Audi’s making one, but it doesn’t look like it will make the trip to the US. Stay tuned….
Sob…
BMW can dial in 330hp at a whim. Are things so challenging that Audi cannot bring a reasonable improvement to its vehicle for less cash? Audi does have VW in their corner. This car has a Challenge ahead. I like the A4 (not S4) better than the 335 I think though. It looks are better to me, has a better interior to me probably, adjustable sustension, and AWD. Well it may be a low volume vehicle. A vehicle ahead of its time. Although I do not care all that much for the S4, past or present. Future one is different thanks to the new chassis. I may change my mind though.
That reminds me, everybody has a big powerful engine and a less powerful one. Why? is the price difference really big? I do not think so. Infinity takes advantage of this. So does Cadillac.
Vento: you do know the G35 is equipped with a 6-speed right? Don’t like NAV? Fine. Your G35 just dropped in price to $30K, an even better deal.
Yep the next time some politician (looking at you Hillary Clinton) wants to push a universal healthcare system think about European prices.
A noble idea to provide healthcare to the poor and/or moochers but damn, how are we going to pay for it???
$8 gas with $5 of each gallon going to the gov’t to pay for programs? HUGE income taxes?
Lived in Europe and it was nice but I’m not yet ready to pay that much to live in America.
Oh – this site is about cars??? OH – well I do indeed like that Audi. Beautiful. Wonder what the Passat equivalent will look like? I really don’t need more than 200 HP though. Would rather have the gas mileage instead of the power.
I really like GPS NAV too. Used it to visit Atlanta a month ago for the first time. I’ll still with the NAV on my Nokia N810 handheld computer though. That way when the software is obsolete I can load something newer. Not like a dash NAV which sits there being useless.
ZCD2.7T – where will the ‘09 CTS-V fit in your breakdown? Performance-wise, price-wise?
It seems to me that the initial numbers coming out on the CTS-V put all of those cars to shame on the fun-for-your-dollar scale.”
————————————————
IF the interior looks and is executed better than a Cavalier, (the last generation’s wasn’t)AND if the refinement approaches that of the German cars’ (ditto), THEN the CTS-V will be the deal of the century. Something (history) tells me that it won’t turn out that way, exactly.
All of that said, I have every intention of driving one to see for myself.
BTW – why is it that nobody except Audi (OK, + Subaru and Mitsubishi) sees the benefit of offering AWD on their highest-performing cars? I’d make it optional, so that those who don’t like to be able to mash the loud pedal with impunity could still do their power-slides, but for me, I’d take AWD any time for a street car….