Hey! Here’s an idea! While we wait for the whole country to switch to E85 (and Mexicans to renew their tortilla riots), let’s double the percentage of ethanol in “normal” U.S. gasoline from 10 percent (E10) to twenty percent (E20). Sounds great! You know; if you’re an ethanol producer. And that’s as good a description as any for the majority of the people who read Ethanol Producer (EP) magazine. In the none-too-subtly titled “Overcoming E20’s Objections,” the September issue of that august journal identifies ground zero in the campaign to increase gasoline’s ethanol content by 100 percent. “In 2005, Minnesota passed unprecedented legislation requiring that the state’s fuel consist of at least 20 percent ethanol by 2013. The state already enforces an E10 mandate and is home to more than 300 E85 fueling stations. To raise total fuel consumption to a level of 20 percent, the state has two choices—consume enough E85 to total 20 percent of all fuel consumed or convince the U.S. EPA to grant a waiver to the Clean Air Act and allow E20 to be used in all gasoline.” Can you guess which way they’re going? To that end, The Gopher (It) state is already researching E20’s effects on ethanol industry profits auto engines. To scribe Kris Bevill’s credit, problems are identified– plastic corrosion, catalytic converter temperature increases, lost mpgs– before the expected coat of gloss is applied. Bottom line? “As far as the national initiative is concerned, we’ve started the ball rolling in that direction,” “marketing specialist” for the Minnesota Department of Agriculture Mark Groschen told EP. “If it didn’t happen until 2015, well that would still be progress wouldn’t it? If we got 15 percent instead of 20 percent—15 is more than 10. We’re just trying to make progress.”
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Geez, are there ANY currently-available vehicles that can run on E20 without voiding their warranties, outside of the usual flex-fuelers that can use E85? I know that mine only allows “up to 10% ethanol”….
Yes, Honda, Toyota, Suzuki offer outside of the US E20 vehicles. I have a car (Honda CRV) overseas and it is an E20 rated car. Actually Honda in Thailand offers all their cars as E20 rated.
I don’t know if it actually voids the warranty, but you make a good point. Aside from flexfuel vehicles, most seem to have an ethanol safety ceiling of 10 – 15%.
Perhaps this is a move to strongarm all new vehicles into being flex-fuel friendly? (which honestly wouldn’t be that hard, doesn’t require any redesign, just take a few parts and change the material they are made of.) However, I can imagine many older vehicles (and by older I mean anything made before, eh, 2005 or so when this ethanol kick really started going) would have some issues.
As has been said for time immemorial: “We’re from the [Minnesota] government and we’re here to help you.”
Here’s my solution for attaining the 20% target: make the governor burn 40% ethanol, and give me pure gasoline. That’s 20% on average!
I like that (50merc’s solution)!
Ethanol is expensive to make from grain. Biodiesel is not.
Maybe they should pass a law requiring all fuel to be sold is B20!
It’d get all those pesky gas cars off the road, too!
That loud thunk you heard was the head of some engineer hitting a table at an auto plant.
How the hell can you do any design of your own when all you have time for is trying to not run afoul of government regulations!?
This is a good example of why we shouldn’t carry side arms.
Damn!
The bottle is empty and there aren’t any smokeable(?) butts around!
The’re using about 30% of the corn crop to replace around 7% of the gasoline. So how they gonna make enough ethanol to replace 20% of the gasoline?
Is there any way to incorporate biodiesel into gasoline?
bluecon :
September 5th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
The’re using about 30% of the corn crop to replace around 7% of the gasoline. So how they gonna make enough ethanol to replace 20% of the gasoline?
Uh-oh. This means they’re coming for the Bourbon.
great idea! Let’s add yet another formulation of gas to a system already making too many blends of gas. Did any of these geniuses research the cost of making and distributing this? Great job guys!
Fuckers! Don’t they realize how much they are already fucking with food supplies!
Pardon the profanities, but I hate this whole ethanol thing. Great, so while I fill my tank, somebody else has an empty stomach. If we are forced into this, I’m moving to Canada Brazil Germany the moon.
I’m all for sustainable energy, but this shit is ridiculous. I wish people would focus more on conservation as a near/medium term solution, and secondly on real sustainable energy solutions (wind, solar).
Amen, rob!
By the time this mandate spreads, I hope to be driving a PHEV or full electric.
I see nothing but problems with this crap, as both my 2008 Elantra and 2005 Kawasaki expressly state that fuels with up to 10% ethanol are allowed.
rob – agreed that corn-o-hol is a monumentally stupid idea.
However….
“focus …….on real sustainable energy solutions (nuclear).” Fixed it for you.
I’m happy to see work proceed on wind and solar, but neither can provide sustainable baseline power and do so near/medium term. And re: waste storage – Yucca Mt. is good enough – unless scientists/engineers decide otherwise. And those folks better be specialists – mining engineers, geologists, seismologists, hydrologists. Scientists in other disciplines aren’t more qualified to form an opinion than, say, Al Gore.
BTW, I’m looking forward to working on a tidal turbine design starting next month. During which period I’ll still be working part time on a lithium battery pack. I like energy and want plenty available to squander as I please.
(responding to ChuckR directly above) any new nuclear plants aren’t going to be up for ten years. Disagree about lack of base from wind and solar–see http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2007/115-7/innovations-abs.html.
Good luck in your work on tidal, and see http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2007/115-12/innovations-abs.html
on that subject.
As for E20, another good reason not to live in Minnesota.
That most cars cannot sustain E20 without damage is of little concern to politicos with an agenda. They rarely pay for their own cars anyway! The 1970s switch to unleaded gasoline stranded people with cars requiring leaded fuel. Nobody cared.
All Honda cars can!
David
Informative articles. What are the economics of the VRB batteries and if wind energy does reach a critical mass, can these be manufactured in a timely manner at a reasonable price? What happens to raw material price – I assume vanadium is the critical material – when market demand ramps up sharply?
Wind and solar without storage cannot be base power. Base power must be there on dark still nights. Re: storage, we’ll have to see what happens in Texas, which yet again leads in energy.
Good luck filing a warranty claim for something engine related in Minnesota. Regardless the cause, it will be blamed on running fuel with a percentage of ethanol greater than what the owners manual specifies.
chuckR,
I know I worried a bout vanadium availability in the case of a ramp-up, and my recollection is that it was not a problem, or I would have written that into the article. The economics of the batteries were not absolutely clear when I wrote the article because there hadn’t been enough experience, but they looked promising–I know I included some figures comparing wind/VRB with other sources, including nuclear, in UK or Europe.
Additionally, I think there was a study that found that in a well integrated grid that could move power easily around a large portion of the country, wind/solar could be baseload without storage. I think this was Nat’l Academy of Sciences, in the last year. Of course, that presupposes upgrading the grid, something that should be done anyway. I should look for that. Feel free to email me directly at motorlegends@aol.com
These guys are so clueless. Going from 10% ethanol to 20% ethanol isn’t “progress,” it’s pointless bullshit for them to talk about while they think of the next big thing that won’t help with anything.
And does this even save any gas, what with the reduced mileage?
And does this even save any gas, what with the reduced mileage?
Of course it would save gasoline, because there is also less gasoline contained in the fuel being used. You would use more gallons of fuel overall, but fewer gallons of gasoline.
That being said, advocating E20 is a bogus plan. You can (and often should) run cars on E10, but E20 can’t be used in most cars today.
But the real problem is that you can’t grow enough corn, switchgrass or whatever to produce enough E20 to satisfy US demands for fuel. Brazil can get away with this because the country uses far less energy than the US does. If they used energy as it was going out of style, like we do, they wouldn’t be able to make it work, either.
All the money spent to make cars faster…
Why are we not more up in arms about something that takes your 300 hp car and makes it a 275 hp car ?
Less gas mileage, too.
Energy neutral.
Way to go.
chuckR :
September 6th, 2008 at 8:38 am
rob – agreed that corn-o-hol is a monumentally stupid idea.
However….
“focus …….on real sustainable energy solutions (nuclear).” Fixed it for you.
I’m happy to see work proceed on wind and solar, but neither can provide sustainable baseline power and do so near/medium term. And re: waste storage – Yucca Mt. is good enough – unless scientists/engineers decide otherwise. And those folks better be specialists – mining engineers, geologists, seismologists, hydrologists. Scientists in other disciplines aren’t more qualified to form an opinion than, say, Al Gore.
BTW, I’m looking forward to working on a tidal turbine design starting next month. During which period I’ll still be working part time on a lithium battery pack. I like energy and want plenty available to squander as I please.
Until plug in hybrids (or pure electric cars) become commonly available, electrical production and use of fuels for transportation are two completely seperate issues. In the continental US, oil is not used for electrical production, and no car manufacturer currently makes an electric car or plug in hybrid (the Tesla and those glorified golf car thingys don’t count). So mentioning wind or nuclear when talking about transportation is pointless, and will continue to be pointless until plug in hybrids are common, which won’t happen for many years.
I suggest everyone just delays the inevitable. Pour a few gallons of acetone into your tank, or for even quicker results a jug of ammonia. At least then you’ll be the one in control of the destruction of your car’s fuel system.
I tried E20 in my 97 Escort for awhile. Worked just fine. It’s got 140k on it now. Still runs great.
Also tried E20 in a 1995 Crown Victoria with no problems. It’s got about 150k on it now.
Without ethanol competition gasoline prices would be higher than they are.
Ethanol will still be around when the last of the gasoline has been used up.
Well, maybe it worked for you 97escort, but I wouldn’t want to use E20 in any car I own when the manufacturer says not to use gasoline containing more than 10% ethanol.
97escort: I don’t believe your price claim is true. There is no ethanol competition in most places in the country. You either get E10 or you don’t, and it’s your gas station and/or local regs determining it.
How long did your cars actually run with E20?
cleek
You grabbed my attention!
Actually, I paniced and spilled a little.
Now help here…Scotch and Bourbon.
Scotch is NOT from corn…bourbon is, right?
So…my little friend is safe?
This is such a terrible idea. With most cars being only E10 ready now, potentially you would be using a harmful fuel in 5 years. That would be awesome to be forced to use a fuel in your 5 year old vehicle that will erode the fuel system!
Another means to increase profits of the big companies. Force you to use the new fuel, bugger up your fuel system, overcharge you for replacement/upgrade. The only loser s will be the guy in the street.
The recent recall of 65,000 Hyundai Elantras was because of a fuel pump that had excessive clearances (brush/commutator) so that cars running on E10 would experience increased electrical resistance in the fuel pump, which caused reduced or no fuel supply to the engine. This was due to a build-up of residues (gunk) on the commutator, which did not occur when using pure gasoline. Hyundai issued a voluntary recall, presumably because this safety issue would get worse with the increased use of E10.
Makes me wonder if the “properly” built fuel pumps could survive exposure to E20…
I guess the experiment is underway in Minn.
David and geotpf – the lead time for nuclear, for upgraded power distribution and for battery development and deployment (including infrastructure – ie adequate power in garages for plug ins) is longer than you might hope. For example, the argument that nukes can’t make a difference for 10 years merely suggests that we should have gotten going a decade or more ago. Let’s not be in a position to make the same observation a decade from now. Our power distribution system is old and creaky and even absent opposition from people who fear nearby EMR, there is the permitting process problem of one national and 50 state governments. Will we have hydrogen/fuel cell cars or battery plug ins? Who knows? But I do know that the infrastructure and power supply will have to be addressed regardless.
…another in Farago’s farrago of flex-fuel flimflams
In reading the article it seems that the testing being done confirms that the average driver driving an E10 compatible car would not notice much difference with E20 (which, by the way, is to the credit of the ethanol producers to be doing proactive testing as opposed to the oil companies who tend to ram their problems such as Mississippi River/Exxon Valdez-type oil spills, MBTE, leaded gas, etc. down our throats). It seems the only concern is with the catalytic converter overheating a bit under “full-throttle”. Possibly the overheating is occurring because the exhaust is too clean which would confuse the ECM. Maybe the appropriate code in the ECM could possibly be adjusted by a laptop computer to a different setting that would eliminate the erroneous feedback from the catalytic converter. That being said, people should be getting more helpful information from automobile manufacturers on what can be done to use E20 or E30 in existing E10 compatible cars, if that’s their choice to use it. I’m surprised dealership repair departments don’t see a customer wallet-flush opportunity in all this.
What’s the big difference with this forced social/industry manipulation and a bailout?
Really, now…nothing.
We have farmers and ethanol producers lobbying for this and getting hugantic (?) profits from its implementation.
They are taking money from you and giving it to them without you having anything to say about it.
We end up with farms growing nothing but corn because that’s where the money is.
That is, until the cost of food is so high they see bigger profits in carrots and wheat…then they rush there.
And this artificial increase in cost was all our (government’s) doing!
Really, B&B, this ethanol additive is just another form of bailout.
We should have a Boston Ethanol party!!!
No, wait.
That sounds messy.
We should have a Boston Ethanol party!!!
No, wait.
That sounds messy.
As long as its mixed with fruit punch instead of gasoline, its sounds like fun.
Non FFV cars are E10 max due to seals and fuel pump. FFV E85 cars need more frequent oil changes. Ethanol is highly corrosive.