Dave Niles over at the Ethanol Producer Magazine‘s Talking Stock, I mean Taking Stalks, I mean Taking Stock blog reports an E85 industry milestone: their 200th “commercial scale” production facility. OK, it’s not actually here yet. In fact, the corn-based ethanol industry is in the middle of a huge E85 glut, they’ve lost the PR war on the “food for fuel” debate (where even GM’s FlexFuel ads are talking-up [theoretical] cellulosic supplies), new facilities are on hold and planning permission for future plants faces stiff not to say stifling local opposition. To be fair, Niles does mention one of those dark clouds: “Eight small-scale plants remain offline primarily due to market conditions.”And while we’re blogging stalks, I mean stalking blogs, I mean talking blogs, J.D. Power and Associates Web Intelligence Division’s surveyed some 40m blog posts over the last six months (using the algorithm method). “The topics of ethanol and biofuels generate lower amounts of positive sentiment than other forms of alternative energy.” But that’s OK because “consumers indicate that they are skeptical of marketing efforts by oil companies that promote their efforts to pursue green and renewable energy sources.”
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So gas stations are expected to shut down their business, dig up the lot, put in a new tank to hold this stuff, remove a gasoline pump, and install an ethanol pump for a fuel that no one wants which may or may not even be available because of the volatility in the production process?
Man, that was a long sentence.
E85 is now for sale at the corner for $3.00 a gallon.
The farmer and distillers that created and sold E85 to me, do not care if I am an American living a ungodly lifestyle and do not wish to do me harm.
The Farmer wishes the best for the US and I wish the best for him and his family. Well, in your cost algolrithms how do fit these thoughts in as variables? well?
Blindfaith–you should give the farmer all your money if that makes you feel better. Just leave me out of it.
Blindfaith,
If you value that, buy it. It’s that simple. I don’t value that, nor do I really believe it. So I won’t buy it.
bluecon and Landcrusher, the sad reality is that you are buying ethanol – at least the part of it that’s subsidized – even if you never put it in your car.
Good point. I may buy it, but I won’t choose it.
I’ve always said that I would by it if it were available to me and ran in my car. I wonder if all the anti-E85 people would be against it if it were readily available.
The local price for unleaded gas is about $3.60. Since gas mileage on E-85 is 25% less than on straight unleaded, E-85’s break even price is $2.70.
I don’t know the current local price for E-85. First, I don’t know where to look since so few stations carry it (and this is an agricultural state). Second, none of my cars will tolerate more than 10% ethanol without damage. Third, the only E-85 cars on the market are crap I refuse to drive.
The twin towers was a bad dream. The hi-jackers funded their crime through working at Burger King not Ben Landen Family fortune created through oil wealth from constuction work.
The faster we get out of oil and reinvest in the US (US soil, US farmer, CAT combines, ETC, US electricity from coal), the better our lives will be in the US.
By the way, most gas contains 10% ethanol. I just cannot Fathom buying bullets for those folks.
I see no change in my gas mileage that is significant. I consider that the oil changes are 50% less due to less sludge in my oil figure out oil changes at 6000 miles instead of 3000. I also will have my engine last 2x long because the oil is not contaminated with sludge causing friction wear. Talk to folks that use LPG they will help you understand the engine wear benefits.
E85 lets me run stupid high boost levels in my turboed car :p
The problem with E-85
Is that MOST cars cant run on it!
If the industry could come up with an additive to the fuel that would change that,it WOULD be a very viable option.
We need as many energy choices as possible to be able to drive cars that we ‘want to drive’ from new to 25 years old,because that’s what Americans drive.
E-85 might as well be hydrogen in its present state.
Well, blindfaith, I’m a real “car guy” and have been my whole life. I’ve tested E10 (once known as “gasohol”) in every vehicle I’ve owned in the US since 1979, and with two (South Korean) exceptions, using E10, I’ve obtained 7% fewer to 20% fewer MPG using E10 than when compared to pure gasoline. The two South Korean cars in question “only” dropped 6%.
Considering the amount of oil used to actually produce AND truck the Ethanol (which can’t be sent in pipelines), it’s virtually A TOTAL WASTE.
Being a Christian man, I can’t sanction making food more expensive while literally pouring the ethanol which results, straight through the cars with virtually no benefits. In Biblical terms, it’s called BAD STEWARDSHIP. You could even realistically call it a sin, since it is quite literally taking food out of peoples mouths for selfish reasons (i.e. being able to drive a bigger E85 vehicle than is needed, for example).
As for E85 cars “only” losing 25% efficiency, well, I don’t have a clue. But these are the same industry pundits which claim E10 loses you only 2% to 3% MPG. Excuse me?!
I’ve REPEATEDLY tested my 2008 Prius and yes, if I am running a 3% solution of ethanol (3.3 gallons of E10 in an 11 gallon tank which started at 100% gasoline), my MPG loss IS immeasurable. As soon as I go over a 3% solution of ethanol, the MPG starts to plummet. The screen is right there in front of me, and I’ve been doing math longer than 45 years out of my 51 plus on earth, as well.
My wife’s 2007 Sonata 4 cyl., “ONLY” lost about 6% efficiency on E10 during a 5000 mile trip this year. I measured and was VERY careful to keep tabs on what was going in the car (using my nose and/or asking). E10 smells “sweeter” than gasoline.
As things stand right now, the only people profiting from this ethanol debacle are the agro-business mega-corporations and some farmers who are systematically over-using their land in a manner reminiscent of the great depression era – during which, if you know anything about history, we had several years of what was referred to as “the dust bowl” when the topsoil blew away never to return.
There’s a massive and growing dead-zone in the Gulf of Mexico from excessive use of nitrate fertilizers upstream of the Mississippi river, mostly down to ethanol production, too.
Ethanol is an unmitigated and total disaster, and will be seen as such someday when people finally wake up and realize the facts.
Oh yes, I totally resent having 70 cents per gallon of my tax monies given over to this industry, as well.
As for E85 cars, I quite agree. There is not ONE single E85 car which I desire to own or drive – generally because they’re all Detroit 2.8 krapola.
I’ve given Detroit 2 1/2 dozen chances over the years and finally woke up and realized they were only going to “stick” me with yet another POS, so I started buying Hyundai and Toyota.
Never looked back, never going back. And by God, there is still ONE gas station locally selling BP branded pure gasoline, and I’m spending MY money and putting it where my mouth is.
Now, I’m no lover of the oil companies – quite the contrary. But, quite emphatically, I believe that ethanol is NOT the answer. It’s not even viable without having tons of our tax monies thrown at it.
As for how things are going for folks who can’t manage to feed themselves, let me quickly tell you – I volunteer at a church food pantry and we have had SUCH a massive uptick of “clientele” it’s heart wrenching.
I do quite agree that we MUST stop importing oil and become self-sufficient. Causing people to have to go to food pantries due to excessive food prices, however, cannot and should not be a part of the process.
I have a hard time believing that the giant agribusiness conglomerates such as ADM and ConAgra wish the best for anyone except their stockholders and the congressmen who provide them with free money.
OPEC is a conglomerate but it’s OK because we are conditioned to funding OPEC rather than our own American farmers. I do not understand.
If you do not like what is funded by government taxes than get off the roads. They are all created by tax dollars but for some reason that gets a pass. You will need no gas or car because you object to tax dollars being used for the benefit of road builders?
By the way, those Japanees and Korean cars you like are created and protected by US troops for free by our tax dollars. Figure out what it costs the US in tax dollars every year to fund our troops for the benefit of reducing the costs of Japanese and Korean cars. To say they are superior in anyway, when they use our tech to build them and our army to protect them. Do not forget R/D money.
By the way, those Japanees and Korean cars you like are created and protected by US troops for free by our tax dollars. Figure out what it costs the US in tax dollars every year to fund our troops for the benefit of reducing the costs of Japanese and Korean cars. To say they are superior in anyway, when they use our tech to build them and our army to protect them. Do not forget R/D money.
Would you care to explain this assertion?
I don’t buy cars to support any particular company or country. Instead, I establish a set of design and performance criteria and buy the car that best meets them. In the mid 1980s, that was a Mazda RX-7. (I would have been happy to buy a Pontiac RX-7, but Pontiac chose to build a POS called the Fiero.) Last fall, using the same procedure, I bought an Infiniti G37S.
If Detroit would build the kind of car I want to drive, I would be glad to buy from them. But they won’t. Back in the late 1960s, Chevy built a car I still respect – the second generation Corvair. My wife and I have the 4-speed, 110 hp Monza coupe she inherted from her father. (I wish it was a Corsa.)
In a few years, we may need a vehicle capable of pulling a horse trailer. Criteria would be 5,000 pound towing capacity, all wheel drive, SUV (1st choice) or pickup (2nd choice) and diesel engine (for torque). Provided they still exist, I would expect to buy from Detroit because they do this kind of vehicle better than any of the imports.
I’d buy a Chevy Avalanche but I don’t have any money.
I’m OK with American cars.
Apparently the 2009 HHR will run E85. It’s the first 4 cylinder I know of that will run it.
blindfaith,
You need to follow the actual money. If you fill your tank with E10, more of your money goes to congressional bribery than terrorists. “Farmer” always sounds idyllic, but the reality is that farming is not any more morally upstanding of a vocation than wildcatting.
It’s also not less polluting. There is a huge plume of crap coming out of the Missippi keeping us from seeing into the water under all those oil platforms. It’s from farming, not from the oil platforms.
Fortunately losing the blogging war doesn’t mean very much. It is like pissing in the ocean.
The resentment for measly ethanol subsidies compared to massive bailouts for Wall Street hucksters boggles the mind. The $700 billion bailout will probably pass as well as the $50 billion auto bailout. All the while bloggers will be pissed off about $5-6 billion in ethanol subsidies. Never mind the trillion dollar wars for oil security subsidy the oil industry receives.
It’s a good thing bloggers don’t run the world. Let them piss and moan, few care. Locally E-85 is $2.60/gal. while E10 is about $3.50. I’ll buy the E-85 the ethanol haters don’t want and love it.
Yes, if depleting the mid-continent aquifer is our goal, then by all means use corn-based ethanol.
In these trying times, a better use would be to make cheap gin and vodka to ease the pain of the sub-prime debacle.
I am buying a Toyota truck next. I am tired of the lefties pushing these schemes that always require the taxpayer to pay. If you buy UAW/CAW you are feeding the lefties.
“Agro-business mega-corporations” were in existence long before ethanol and, assuming the Ethanol Blog War (you can say you saw the big one) results in the demise of ethanol usage, will be in existence long afterwards. So the “massive and growing dead-zone in the Gulf of Mexico” will still be there, a byproduct of creating high fructose corn syrup feed corn needed for the Twinkies and Ding-Dong livestock industry. I wonder if the Gulf of Mexico plume resembles the plume resulting from one Mississippi River oil tanker spill? The impact of oil spills tend to last decades. Just wondering.
The price of food is more dependent on the value of the dollar and the general economic conditions people live in rather than just ethanol.
By the way, HCCI engines currently being tested will more effectively utilize ethanol.
Excellent post menno…!!
I consider that the oil changes are 50% less due to less sludge in my oil figure out oil changes at 6000 miles instead of 3000. I also will have my engine last 2x long because the oil is not contaminated with sludge causing friction wear. Talk to folks that use LPG they will help you understand the engine wear benefits.
While I’ve seen evidence of LPG power vehicles allowing longer oil changes because of less contamination in the oil, I’ve yet to see any evidence that supports this for gasoline with ethanol. I would say longer oil changes are possible today with conventional motor oils because these oils improved so much in the last 10-20 years. The oil industry in the US switched their conventional motor oils over to hydrocracked Group II base oils in the late 1990’s early 2000’s. These Group II base oils used in modern conventional oils (SM/GF-4 specifications) are far superior to the Group I solvent refined oils we were using in the 1970/80’s for 3,000 mile oil changes.
The oil industry in the US switched their conventional motor oils over to hydrocracked Group II base oils in the late 1990’s early 2000’s.
This assuming you are gettin what you buy. The cans of motor oil when we studied seem to be this and that at the sellers descretion. The filth that is created by the gasoline engine burning or not buring the gasoline is what troubles the good or bad oil that the seller is giving you. The better or not so good senario for oil is not relevant since you cannot control what you are buying. So, the situation is burn something that is not so miserable like pure gas, try E85 burns a lot cleaner. Whenever oil is without contamination the oil will prevent 99% of friction wear. By the way, Since Japanese and Korean cars are so good, why don’t they pressurize the oil system prior to startup there by eliminating dry start up wear? Dry startup wear is where most friction wear takes place if the oil is good.
The 3000 mile oil changed is based on how many gallons of gas you were expected to burn in 3000 miles not the quality of oil. We burned about 300 gallons of gas with a 10 mpg car. Our cars started getting around 20mpgh so 300 gallons of gas was hit at 6000 miles.
If your concerned about ehtanol efficiencey, a high compression car will improve gas mileage.
The ethanol replaced the additive that the government mandated that was a deriviative of natural gas. This derivative poluted the underground water and was a lighter than water molecule. This meaning you cannot filter it out. The oil companies fought hard to eliminate their liabilites through law but failed. Once they were held liable for their damages they swithched to ethanol for air quality standards.
Since, all this complaining I hear comes without much common sense. I believe you folks must be bloggers.
We pay our troups to protect Korea and Japan to reduce the costs of the cars they sell us.
Remember get off the roads they are 100% built with tax dollars. And, remember do nothing unless it is 100% effective immeidately.
“I wonder if the Gulf of Mexico plume resembles the plume resulting from one Mississippi River oil tanker spill? The impact of oil spills tend to last decades. Just wondering.”
No, the plume is much bigger and persistent, and can be seen from orbit. Also, it is not an accident. It is a known result of actions that farmers continue to make every day.
No, the plume is much bigger and persistent, and can be seen from orbit. Also, it is not an accident. It is a known result of actions that farmers continue to make every day.
The plume much be stopped immediately.
Now, don’t worry since all the corn we grow was changed from people food to ethanol for gas and we deprived the starving masses of cheap food.
But since the plume must be stopped because it is killing the clams that cannot swim away, we must stop growing the corn for cheap food.
See, we have a win win. Clams live and no corn for ethanol.