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lol
No – this is like the Chrysler Minivans in the 80s. They invented the FIRST minivan.
No, plenty of small vans available long before that. Fiat Panorama, the Corvair Greebrier, the VW Transporter, etc.
Oh – well this is the first MODERN minivan. No… The VW Vanagon was plenty modern… A/c, automatic, seating for six, power windows.
Well this is the first van on an automobile chassis. Well, no the VW van started out (at the very beginning) being built on a much modified Beetle chassis. No less modified than the K-car chassis I suppose.
Well, dammit – this is the first FWD minivan!
Okay, you’ve got something there…
And don’t forget the first EVER Pontiac G6!!! Well of course you nit-wits, this car just got released to the public. Of course it is the first EVER G6! Not like the world’s auto manufacturer’s were racing to build a G6!
And finally the holy grail (for me): this car is a new restoration. A frame off restoration. A full restoration. In excellent condition.
Couldn’t win a free dash plaque at a car show but it is fully restored and in excellent condition.
Of course fully restored and in excellent condition mean very different things to different people. Rocker panels full of bondo and steel wool don’t count to me.
joeaverage
you are correct Chrysler didn’t invent the first Minivan, (althought they were the first to use the term) they invented the first one that anyone BOUGHT in quantity to be succesful. The rest you list were just roadblocking POS.
The first ever G6 always makes me laugh.
BTW, I work at a German company and sometimes funny stuff comes at you without expecting it. In German, the letter ‘G’ is pronounced ‘ghey’. The number six is pronounced ‘zex’.
So yes GM makes the ‘ghey zex’.
Must be why I see so many women driving one. They must be trying to stop it from happening.
Left Lane News had a review up yesterday.
Well, it was the first in THEIR LITTLE WORLD I guess.
I’ve been driving a Jetta TDI in my little world since September of 2002. Love the amazing little homebrew-burning machine.
–chuck
They’ve obviously been spending too much time in the future with VW.
Juniper:
Roadblocking or not.First is first-the VW Bus was a worldwide success, the minivan a US-local success.
I like the minivan for what it once stood for, but you cannot compare it to a VW Bus in terms of durability,resale value and operating cost .Of course, the old VW bus is now outdated and might have been already technically outdated during it`s prime, but do you think that in 40 years from now you would have to pay 50k for a minivan( like you would have to today for a microbus) in top condition? I think in 40 years from know people don`t even know how to spell Chrysler let alone minivan.
“I like the minivan for what it once stood for, but you cannot compare it to a VW Bus in terms of durability,resale value and operating cost .”
You’re right. The Chrysler minivans were far more durable, had far better resale values from the 90’s to now, and cost far less to operate than the sub-20 mpg, high parts cost VW’s.
“Of course, the old VW bus is now outdated and might have been already technically outdated during it`s prime, but do you think that in 40 years from now you would have to pay 50k for a minivan( like you would have to today for a microbus) in top condition?”
I’ve never heard of that. I did see a Eurovan with only 36k original miles go for $4600 recently. A late 90’s version of a Chrysler minivan with low miles would likely go for the high 3’s to low 4’s wholesale (depending on condition).
“I think in 40 years from know people don`t even know how to spell Chrysler let alone minivan.”
You may be right. But that may have more to do with how our educational system evolves over the course of time. Most of the people I know don’t know how to properly pronounce Butte, Montana.
As for the Bus being the first minivan…. wrong. Even VW’s enthusiasts and the manufacturer in question consider it to be a van. Period. It’s also been a complete deathtrap and uncompetitive model for most of it’s history. Although it has a charming shape and pseudo-hip following. On the flip side the Chrysler minivans have been best sellers for decades and dominated the minivan niche until recently. In fact, isn’t VW asking Chrysler to build them a minivan these days? Thought so.
Oh, c’mon, everybody knows TTAC isn’t a real car site. I mean, when a car is crap, this site actually calls it out. :GASP: What respectable automotive reporting entity does that?!
Steven Lang:
Not quite so.A microbus(T1)is not a Eurovan(T4).If you check any ongoing car collection auction you will notice that it is almost impossible to get a microbus in excellent condition that`s 40 years old under 50K.
The original T1 microbus resided on a modified beetle chassis and therefore was based on a passenger vehicle-just like the early Chrysler minivan was based on the K-car platform.So the VW bus in it`s origin was the first minivan(for the US) eventhough the definition for Europe due to it`s size was a van.
The Chrysler Minivan was a bestseller only in the US and nowhere else.Not one export market other than Canada has been dominated in it`s class by the vehicle. The VW microbus and its derivatives was sold in over 140 countries and dominated the vehicle class in each market until `79.Needless to say that the vehicles after some 40+ years are still being built in Mexico and Brazil(T2`s).
In terms of safety concerns you are right.But compare it to the AS Minivans of the 80`s and you will find no difference. The RS minivan as of MY`96 made a 3 star rating in front end collission in the US. In Europe with the 50% offset requirement only 2 stars.So much about a death trap.
You are right about the fact that VW has totally abandoned that market in the States and now are
buying them in as modified RT`s.But again only in the States. The T5 now is pretty much controlling it`s vehicle class in Europe-but then again only in Europe.
netrun :
September 25th, 2008 at 11:53 am
The first ever G6 always makes me laugh.
BTW, I work at a German company and sometimes funny stuff comes at you without expecting it. In German, the letter ‘G’ is pronounced ‘ghey’. The number six is pronounced ‘zex’.
So yes GM makes the ‘ghey zex’.
Must be why I see so many women driving one. They must be trying to stop it from happening.
Where in Germany? Here in the Frankfurt area, its pronounced “gee,” with a hard “G”. But I know its different all over.
@matt:
Us Emmeri-kanz that have learned a little German tend to butcher it (big surprise – we suck at foreign languages!). So we come up with these funny bits from the little we know just to amuse ourselves. Needless to say, whenever there is a meeting, it’s conducted in English because otherwise we’d get nothing done.
And our company is headquartered in Herzogenaurach, which is in Middle Franconia, which is in Bavaria.
We learned the Latin pronunciations of “Five” and “Six” as KIN-KAY SEX (Quinque, Sex).
Had some fun with that…
“World’s First”
Well, they could mean Mars, since we have an “automotive” presence there.
Latin’s <qu> was probably labialized — /k_w/.
Edmunds’ graphic designers probably had the slide ready long ago. The review was probably ready, too, but was bumped by something sexier.
I miss the old Edmunds. I used to keep their old car comparator bookmarked–it was available even after their first redesign, it just wasn’t publicly linked–because it was clean, simple and easy. They got very cluttered after that first redesign; their second, coinciding with the launch of Inside Line, has made things downright awful. Just try to find their long-term tests: it’s nearly impossible.
It’s like they failed to learn the lesson that Google schooled the rest of the web on: do not make users fight to find your content. Ever.
What’s nice is that their UK equivalent, Parkers, still looks and behaves as sanely as it did five or more years ago.
Matt,
I too work for a German company here in the US, and they pronounce “So and So AG” as “ah geh.” So I can see the original dude’s point with “G6” pronounced as “gehy zex.”
One of my co-workers was telling me what she learned at the German American Business Association meeting; however, she used the acronym GABA when pronouncing it. I thought she was discussing just-in-time inventories at a “gay bar.” Puzzling.
Nevertheless, I’m still laughing about how I pronounce an exit on a German highway: ausfahrt. I call it, well, a$$ fart.
An excellent reply… I’ll definitely take the time to respond to your good points.
“Not quite so.A microbus(T1)is not a Eurovan(T4).If you check any ongoing car collection auction you will notice that it is almost impossible to get a microbus in excellent condition that`s 40 years old under 50K.”
Yes, there were four generations but it had always been defined, even after the word ‘minivan’ became common, as a van. The seating position, interior dimensions, and even VW have always considered the Vanagon, Bus, Eurovan and Transporters as vans.
Other than the Westfalia models which are truly unique, the Vanagons and Eurovans have values that are not far different from Chryslers. They were not very good sellers since the Chrysler minivan came out. VW even canceled the Eurovan after only a year (1993) when it became clear that it would not
The value it has in the ’40 year old’ realm has everything to do with it’s cultural identifications. Not the real quality of the vehicle.
“The original T1 microbus resided on a modified beetle chassis and therefore was based on a passenger vehicle-just like the early Chrysler minivan was based on the K-car platform.So the VW bus in it`s origin was the first minivan(for the US) eventhough the definition for Europe due to it`s size was a van.”
One has absolutely nothing to do with the other from an engineering perspective. Aerostars and Astros were both truck based as were several other ‘minivan’ models right up to the mid-1990’s.
“The Chrysler Minivan was a bestseller only in the US and nowhere else.Not one export market other than Canada has been dominated in it`s class by the vehicle.”
Correct me if I’m wrong. But the Chrysler minivan actually has a plant dedicated to it in Europe and has been a far stronger competitor than the VW for most of the last two decades.
“The VW microbus and its derivatives was sold in over 140 countries and dominated the vehicle class in each market until `79.”
It had no competition…
“Needless to say that the vehicles after some 40+ years are still being built in Mexico and Brazil(T2`s).”
Yes, and Peugeot 505’s are still built in Nigeria… which really means nothing.
“In terms of safety concerns you are right.But compare it to the AS Minivans of the 80`s and you will find no difference. The RS minivan as of MY`96 made a 3 star rating in front end collission in the US. In Europe with the 50% offset requirement only 2 stars.So much about a death trap.”
Ahhh, yes there is. The first crash barrier that comes after the grille is your legs. To call the VW as safe as the Chrysler is like saying the Aveo is just as much fun to drive as a Fit. It’s just not realistic.
“You are right about the fact that VW has totally abandoned that market in the States and now are
buying them in as modified RT`s.But again only in the States. The T5 now is pretty much controlling it`s vehicle class in Europe-but then again only in Europe.”
I thought the Espace and the S-Max were the best sellers? Am I wrong on that?
VW even canceled the Eurovan after only a year (1993) when it became clear that it would not
“The Eurovan, as the T4 generation was exported to North America from 1990 until 2003 only as a passenger version”
“The VW microbus and its derivatives was sold in over 140 countries and dominated the vehicle class in each market until `79.”
It had no competition…
Except for other passenger vans, such as the Ford Transit bus (which was a much better vehicle in my opinion.)
Correct me if I’m wrong. But the Chrysler minivan actually has a plant dedicated to it in Europe and has been a far stronger competitor than the VW for most of the last two decades.
You’re wrong, I’m afraid. Magna Steyr stopped building Chrysler minivans last year, and they never sold especially well.
@Steven Lang:
The microbus very well had competition from Ford in the US and in Europe.Eventhough the Ford vehicles supplied better interior spacing,a heater, more power and might have been viewed as the better vehicle, never showed any sales significance against the VW.(again worldwide)
Comparing the Mexican and Brazilian automotive market to Nigeria is from a business perspective laughable.
Where are all the Chrysler plants that were built in the mid `90`s in Brazil and Argentina-long gone.How good was the AS/NS Minivan that it still is being build today somewhere in the emerging markets?-Nowhere.Even China turned it down.
Chrysler had the so-called Eurostar plant in Austria from 91-2002. Shut the place in 2002 and sold it off to MAGNA-which continued to run the RG as it was called there until last year.
The vehicle until it`s demise never showed annual sales above 50K units outside the NA market- which coverd all ROW countries.
The Espace was the European equivalent to the AS in the early 80`s.At the very beginning it had good market share but ranks amongst the last in it`s class today. The Ford`s eventhough good vehicles are midfield below the VW Touran and the much larger T5 which top their classes.
Again I am not saying the Minivan is a bad car,
but it simlply continued where VW left off in the early 80`s.(for the US market)
“The VW microbus and its derivatives was sold in over 140 countries and dominated the vehicle class in each market until `79.”
It had no competition…
I don’t know whether it dominated any markets or not but there was plenty of competition.
I drove a late 80s Mercedes passenger van – think extended Dodge full-sized church van but with the length added to the middle rather than to the rear end. A much better vehicle than a Dodge. It was a naturally aspirated five cylinder (?) five speed. Really a tough van. Drove it ~400 miles one weekend.
Fiat has the Ducato van. Drove the 2.5 four cylinder non-turbo diesel all over Naples, Italy for three years. “Five on the tree”. I liked the column shifter. Drove well, rode pretty good, jumped well, etc. The turbo version was even better. Steering column flexed up and down a little which I did not like. Very plain interior and exterior but I’d own one for the right price.
Fiat also had a van called the Panorama. It has a 900cc rear mounted water cooled inline gasoline four cylinder with a four speed manual. I think of it as a derivative of the VW van b/c it also had a swing axle rear end. It was tiny but still capable of carrying six adults and some luggage. We drove the wheels off of these vans. They truly defined legs as your crumple zone. They were excellent vehicles for city streets and short distances. Easy to rollover though so they were definitely best for low speeds and traffic.
These are just the vans I knew best. Every manufacturer had a van or a people carrier in their lineup and most still do today. Europeans have always had alot of variety to choose from. However we Americans have to keep in mind that some of their products are best suited for short distances.
The VW van is a great example. I have owned two over the years. I have one now. It’s a ’78 Westfalia that still needs a couple final touches on a Corvair implant. Needs electrical (3 wires), some final custom sheetmetal fab for the cooling, and the fuel lines connected. I also transplanted the Corvair four speed manual tranny. Good fit.
Why did I do this? Because the van is over 4,000 lbs and came with a 67 horsepower low compression four cylinder. It is a good engine for the era of 55 mph highways but I’d prefer to run 65 mph and not crawl the hills. Its the interstate speed differentials that worry me the most.
The van was originally designed for local trips carrying people to and from hotels, weekend trips to the lake or delivering packages in Germany. Excellent vehicle for that even today. It will run at it’s top speed of ~80 mph too b/c VWs are like that. The engine is wound tight though and ear plugs would be welcomed. Like a motorcycle you adjust your driving skills to best suit the vehicle’s attributes.
This is where VWoA messed up again. They really should have offered a flat-six version which would have allowed lower rpms and the same performance. Add to that a close ration five speed with a final drive a little higher than the four speed my van came with.
On the other hand the chassis is at it’s limits about the same time the engine is so maybe the original four is the right engine to keep people out of trouble. Lots of body-roll.
The Vanagon’s improvements addeda lot of complexity but it also added the refinements that the van needed.
Vans like mine exhibited lots of windy day wandering at interstate speeds as well. This is often a function of the tires as well. It seems tire stores think the VW van weighs the same as a small car b/c they too often fit small car tires which are then running at their weight capacity or even over loaded with the VW vans empty. The average consumer doesn’t know this and doesn’t understand why the van wanders so badly. Good tires make a big difference.
The crumple zone upfront is better than you might think. I can’t comment on the 60s vans but the ’68 thru ’79 vans were pretty tough. The Vanagons from ’80 through ’91 were better. The Eurovan was even better yet. I would still like to own a Eurovan Weekender. Still not rich yet either.
If you strike a large object like a cow or moose with the 70s vans the impact spreads out and ruins the front end. You’ll be able to stop and pull over unhurt if you have your belt on. If you strike something like a small car the van tends to ride up and over the front of the car causing catastrophic damage to the car and it’s occupants. The van will protect the van’s driver and passengers pretty well. The van will get totaled but not the van’s riders.
The problems begins when the van strikes something like a pole or wall or semi-truck but then it doesn’t matter what you are driving, you’re in serious danger. Yeah I agree, I’d rather be in some big domestic vehicle too.
The are some pictures on the web from collisions people have had in VW rear-engined vans and they walked away. There is a video on YouTube however where a VW Vanagon doublecab is run into a solid barrier. I read somewhere the test vehicle carried a 1,000 load at 60 mph into the barrier. As I recall the full sized Ford F-150 didn’t do to well even without a loadin a lower speed crash. Not this bad of course but hauling a load behind the cab at any speed is more dangerous than we usually think about.
FWIW I would like the see the average size of the American fleet go down. If we were all driving cars of more modest weight and strength then we’d all fair better in vehicle to vehicle crashes. As it is now anybody not driving an SUV has to worry about getting squashed like a bug.
I still find it interesting to see a VW camper in good condition. Folks either did not take care of them, folks who could not care for them bought them second hand, or they got all used up.
Still after ten+ years of ownership, I find mine very useful and an interesting ride.
Can’t seem to get hyperlinks to post so here it is in text form:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/78westy.php
http://www.vanagon.com/info/safety/volvo-crash/index.html
I wish I could make a sticky for this discussion. It has a lot of brilliant information.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on what defines a ‘minivan’. Here’s a fascinating discussion on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minivan
To me, the VW T1’s thru T4’s have been designed as the quintessential European van. The commercial applications for it, prioritization of space over comfort, and exceptionally high seating position all reflect van origins. VW even defines it that way and has saw fit to have these vehicles be marketed that way. But the above link also makes a good case that I’m wrong. So I guess it’s all a matter of perspective.
I think the VW has some good points. But comparing it to the Chrysler Minivans is like comparing a Dodge Dart to a Honda Accord. They are two totally different designs in concept and in application. But the Chrysler models were absolutely dominant in the Americas in a way that no vehicle of the past 25 years has been able to duplicate.
Unlike the Bus, the Chrysler minivans were diligently focused as personal family transportation. A few of the firsts in this segment included…
1) Dual sliding doors (1996)
2) Integrated child safety seats (1992)
3) Driver’s side airbag (1991)
4) Dual airbags (1994)
5) Middle Row Captains’s Chairs (1991)
6) 2nd row fold flat seating (2005)
7) Integrated child booster seats (2008)
8) 2nd Row seats that could turn 180 degrees (2008)
Notice how virtually all the innovations are orientated towards a family’s needs. The family is the minivan market. It was also the first minivan in the NA market to offer ABS as well as the first to pass the 1998 safety standards which were exceptionally stringent for their time. By the way, did I mention 17 quintillion cupholders?
All kidding aside, the 1st generation Chrysler minivans were the first modern minivans that offered a genuine family focused design, better fuel efficiency, and a stronger safety record than traditional vans. Which is why over 10 million have been sold at this point. You may look at it as a quintessential American vehicle. But I would argue that it was those very qualities and focus that made it such an exceptional van in the first place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGKlWqSadlQ
Note that around 3 mins they test the Vanagon against an American “limousine”. FWIW I saw many Italians hiring very ordinary American sedans as wedding departure vehicles. Oldsmobiles, Buicks, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pityxv0DW7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwa9vdq8dvw
Now back to Edmunds and the Jetta.
Is Edmunds still publishing invoice pricing for vehicles or have they quit or watered it down yet? Was useful in 1999 when we bought our then new CR-V.
I wonder if gas prices hovering around $3.50 will lead more small and medium sized wagons to the market. Anybody got an opinion?