You may recall (or continue to choose not to if you work in Motown) that 2007 marked the first year when more U.S. new car buyers shopped for Asian than American brands. The trend continues. Automotive News had a look at J.D. Powers’ recent stats on the subject and provide the takeaway: “The Asian edge grew in 2008, with 63 percent of buyers considering Asian cars and 55 percent American cars.” Yes, there’s overlap. And yes, “consideration” led to sales. “In a survey of nearly 30,000 new-car buyers conducted between May and July, J.D. Power found that Asian vehicles won out for 58 percent of buyers who considered both American and Asian new cars, up from 55 percent in 2007. Only 40 percent of consumers looking at cars from both regions chose American autos, down from 43 percent last year.” It gets worse. A lot worse. “Those who decided on American products cited a desire to buy American and the incentives that U.S. carmakers offer as their top two reasons for choosing an American brand. Those who bought an Asian vehicle cited better retained value, reliability and gas mileage as their top three reasons for choosing a car from that region, according to the survey.” And worse. “Consumers cited high prices, high monthly payments and low gas mileage as their top three reasons for rejecting a vehicle, the survey found.”
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What about the share for the European (and especially German) brands?
TireGuy:
“Buyers consider European vehicles 14 percent of the time, a rate that has stayed mostly constant since 2003, said Tom Gauer, senior director of the study.”
Last night I saw a “GM Employee Price” ad on television. They showed a 2009 G6 for under $15k. Not a vehicle on my short list but I’ve driven them as rentals and imagine it’d be a decent enough car for at least 100k miles.
Assuming comparable Camry or Accord would likely go for around $30k and from experience would give me roughly 200k worry-free miles it’s almost to the point where I’d consider the G6 as a half-price/half-quality throw away alternative. Wouldn’t even be too tough to pay cash to boot.
Wonder if anyone in the Ren Cen is reading this because that’s literally how I feel about your vehicles right now. Only interested if they are less than half the price of their Japanese competitors. Sorry.
I do like pumpkin pie very much.
This is why the bailout is meaningless. It ultimately does not change anything, but simply delays the final day of reckoning. The numerical editions of the deathwatch series may end up much higher but death is still the outcome.
G6 at half the price/half -quality?I would be really interested to see the source of that stat.
Come on now your trying to tell us that a Camry will give you 200k miles trouble free?If thats the case,how come every cab company in North America isn’t running 100% Japanese?
Its just a whole pile of misinformed,car buyers buying into the myth.The domestics can match or exceed car for car ANYTHING that comes from Asia.
Not only that your money stays in North America.
Not such a bad thing these days EH?
Statements such as that that make me hot under my blue collar.So I better shut up,before RF takes me to the woodshed.
I would have to believe a $30K camry or accord would offer significantly different equipment levels than a $15K G6. Without knowing anything of the G6, a $15K model has to be middle of the road at best. That would translate into a $22-25K Camry or Accord. Maybe even a $20K accord (the LX I think).
For me to take the G6 over the camry or accord, assuming 100K ownership, the G6 would need to get closer to $10K. And I still may not choose it over used cars. Sad that some new GMs are fighting used imports in my mind. [FWIW, i’m not a total GM hater. I do like and respect some of their vehicles….just not the G6)
I bought an American car because the incentives were unbeatable. If the price had been the same as the equivalent import, then NO WAY would I have risked it. But so far I am quite happy with my car.
I thought moving production to China and Mexico was to lower the MSRP. Oh wait – that was to maintain the MSRP and increase profits. No wait – aren’t the domestic car makers in serious trouble? No wait – the gov’t is giving them $25B to help Detroit build more efficient cars. Will it work?
If Detroit could match the quality, features, and weight of my nice year old Honda at a competitive price without trying to sell me a Cobalt or Neon whose quality we know all about – I’d talk to them next time.
I’m still going to shop their vehicles when the time comes. Just don’t know if I’m going to buy one.
How do you get a fluted crust out of the pan without wrecking it?
And I expect a $15K G6 is equipped comparably to a $20-21K Camry (at least at list… dealer gouge may vary). But the base I4 in the G6… is it any good? An I4 in the Camry does OK for me.
However, this must be crushing the resale prices of last year’s G6s. Now, there is the bottom-feeder value-leader.
I would consider a $21k loaded Fusion. But it’s made in Mexico. So I guess I’d go the extra $4k for the Accord EX built in Ohio.
Consumers Reports (a truly loved organization in these parts) does a survey of its members every year to gauge how reliable their consumer products are and how often they’ve needed repair.
Turns out that the average Japanese vehicle at 7-8 years old has just as many problems as the average 3-4 year old domestic vehicle.
So, yeah, if you’re going to have twice as many problems (on average) than it should be at half the price. Because problems cost money, time, missed work, stranded with kids, etc. You know, headaches and added stress.
So, either get it together and start making vehicles that are twice as good as the Japanese vehicles, or get out of the game. Because it is a game and if you are losing you can’t play as good as the other team and hope to win.
Since news of the gubment loan this morning, maybe some of the maladies will be attended to.
Honestly now people. Would most of the readers here really know if a Asian vehicle was indeed actually better than a domestic without the pontifornicators saying they were first?
Most buyers look to reviews from so-called “EXPERTS” in the field. But when their qualifications are called into view, nothing like Mechanical Engineering , or Performance driving instructor, or even Auto Technician ever pop up. Things like Language Arts, and Marketing, and Media relations pop up.
When you look for medical advice, do you go to a dog catcher, Airline pilot, or sports commentator?
I think not. Go to someone who knows…
Money staying in North America?
How about my wife’s 2007 Hyundai Sonata? You know, that “foreign” car – manufactured near Montgomery, Alabama. (Not just assembled – I was at the factory and saw it first hand). Rolls of steel with “US Steel” printed on the side. Engines cast in the US being machined in transfer lines and assembled. You know, Hyundai, the company now building a 2nd car plant (with their 50% owned partner, Kia) in Mississippi. You know, Mississippi, where Toyota are right now building a factory for the upcoming new Prius. To go with their other US factories. As well as Honda, Mitsubishi, and Mazda factories – Mazda’s being in my home state, Michigan.
As opposed to GM, Ford and Chrysler which seem to be bent on exporting every possible job out of the United States (and, okay, Mikey – even Canada too).
Mikey, I understand your frustration, but you have to remember that a lot of people in this forum grew up and first started acquiring cars during the Big 3s dark days (quality wise). And the stats, at a corporate level, generally still favour the Japanese. So, it’s a belief that’s hard to shake.
Worse still, it cuts the other way…I know many people who have purchased Mercedes, Audi, and BMW only to find they are stuck with car with multiple failures (particularly electrical) that are difficult to diagnose and expensive to fix (particularly Benz, BMW to a lesser extent). It doesn’t seem to have caught up with them yet, I hope it does.
Things could come around in time, but time is something Detroit doesn’t have.
Well, monkeyboy, I’ve been buying new and used cars since 1973. I’ve given Detroit Inc (including American Motors now long deceased) chance after chance after chance and have been disappointed virtually every time.
I guess I’m just a very slow learner, but finally after a 1997 Chevrolet Cavalier which could not keep rotors from warping (and a dealer which refused to replace them but only “turned” them for a 3rd time) and after a 1999 Dodge Neon which could not keep head gaskets (inexcusible – humanity has been manufacturing cars since 1896 and it’s not brain surgery to get head gaskets to actually “not blow”) – I walked away from Detroit Inc and “took a huge chance” on a Hyundai which was within my then price-range for a commuter car.
Got a 2002 Sonata V6. It was “better than average” according to Consumer Reports and so forth, and certainly was better than the average Detroit car I’d bought previously – though not perfect.
So my wife and I got a commuter car – 2005 Toyota Prius. Virtually flawless over 48,000 miles, and 45 plus MPG over 48,000 miles. NOTHING BROKE. Only one very minor “rubbed wire” in the self-levelling headlights caused me to go to the dealer (and in fact, the headlights went “up” on “default” and actually helped me to avoid hitting a deer, weirdly enough).
Now we’re on our 2nd Sonata (2007) and this car is virtually a tie for the best car we’ve ever had, and we’re on our 2nd Prius (2008) and this car is virtually the other best car we’ve ever had. Bar none.
So, after 3 and a half dozen cars since 1973, am I “someone who knows” in your mind?
As for the bailout of GM Ford and Chrysler with our taxpayer money, it’s only delaying the inevitable until AFTER the election, so the Obamanation or McPain can get into office.
KixStart: “How do you get a fluted crust out of the pan without wrecking it?”
I think that maybe it’s a cardboard insert, kind of like the paper inserts for cupcakes, or a reuseable metal one for a pie pan.
The G6’s that I’ve driven (and been driven in) don’t seem like bad cars at all; but their initial MSRP’s were nearly at equity with the Camry and Accord – cars which were a notch or two better. That gave way eventually; but having to “wrassle” with a dealer over a somewhat inferior car was probably too distasteful for some. If those people bought a C or A, they’re gone forever.
I priced the G6 GTP and my eyes almost popped out — they’re really proud of those things.
My apologies to anyone who I offended with my G6/Camcord comparison. My point is that I’m the buyer that would consider one of the 2.8’s vehicles on price & incentives.
What the 2.8 need to do is make their cars better than the Camcord competition. Then after people like me buy in with the half-price mentality there’s a chance they end up with a convert that fully believes in their product.
Right now the closest I get to the 2.8’s offerings are rental cars, and none have impressed me over the Asian options, aside from price alone.
What the 2.8 need to do is make their cars better than the Camcord competition.
Which is an uphill battle the domestics will never win. Even when they do their best (Fusion, Malibu), they can no better than match the Camry and Accord (excluding resale…another lost battle because of steep discounts and fleet dumping). And for the 2, nearly 3 generations they’ve lost (me, my parent’s generation all switched to Camrys and Avalons, my kids gravitate towards Civics and Mazda3s and aspire to Acuras, Audis and BMWs…much like I do) because of past sins, there’s no reason to go back. None, especially when many of the transplants are made here.
netrun: Consumers Reports (a truly loved organization in these parts) does a survey of its members every year to gauge how reliable their consumer products are and how often they’ve needed repair.
Turns out that the average Japanese vehicle at 7-8 years old has just as many problems as the average 3-4 year old domestic vehicle.
That’s not what I remember it saying. If I recall correctly, Asian vehicles (which would include both Japanese and Korean vehicles) as a group were more reliable after seven years than the typical domestic car of the same age.
And I definitely remember it saying that a typical Honda and Toyota vehicle (the best of the Asians) after seven years still has fewer problems than a typical domestic vehicle.
@geeber:
:) OK, I’m a willow, I can bend.
netrun,
I do recall reading that the domestics are better than the European vehicles as a group.
And Ford is definitely better than GM and Chrysler after 6-7 years.
…how come every cab company in North America isn’t running 100% Japanese?
It’s closer than you might think.
On Tuesday I had my first ride in a Prius. It was a NYC cab. While still outnumbered by (mostly) knackered Crown Vics, there are more and more Priora and Hybrid Highlanders (and Escapes) doing Taxi duty in the Big Apple.
I’m also seeing an awful lot of Hybrid Camrys lined up in the livery service ranks too. Here in downtown Manhattan, I reckon every 3rd or 4th livery service car is either a Hybrid Camry or Highlander instead of a Town Car.
A little refinement on netruns stat:
IIRC their chart shows 8 year old Honda or Toyota (not just any Japanese car) is about as reliable as a 3-4 year old GM or Chrysler and a 4-5 year old Ford.
The same chart shows Hyundia swooped past the Debt3 in recent years.
Their data also shows a very promising surge in Fords reliability the last two years.
mikey- Sorry buddy, while GM has some
reliable vehicles (though their top score in CR the last two years was, ouch, the Vibe. That sound is my irony circuits kicking in.) they dominate the bottom of the ladder with 9 or ten of the bottom twenty including the two worst. There average in both CR and JDP VDS is solidly below average (Truedelta isn’t showing any promise either). Please provide some stats to back up your statements (i.e. “The domestics can match or exceed car for car ANYTHING that comes from Asia.”) since this is what you ask of others.
No offense meant, just sayin’, OK?
Buying GM is just russia roulette reliability wise.
I would go with a nice ceritfied 2-year old Accord (or a new Fusion) before even considering a new GM anything.
Bunter
I have heard that the gas savings on a Prius cab can pay for the entire car in just a few years of hack service.
Bunter
I myself am looking forward to buying a firesale Pontiac G8 GT next year(talked myself out of buying a Magnum srt8). My reliable family vehicle (Sequoia) is a Toyota but my personal vehicles are usually Detroit because as a muscle/sports car guy I have not found an Asian car that satifies my muscle car gene. German cars are close but expensive up front and for parts.
Yes my passion is American sports/muscle cars and my hobby is trying to keep them running. LOL
I have to love the car I drive everyday and MPG is not the first thing I look at in a car. Sorry no Prius in my future.
My wife loves the dependability of her toyota but her fondest car memories are of her driving my Mustang back in the day.
Anyone who thinks modern American cars are too unreliable in an absolute sense needs to buy an old Italian car. After that, anything made in the last five to ten years will appear hewn from granite and Atlas’s shoulders.
Just because a modern car is relatively unreliable doesn’t mean it’s absolutely unreliable, or even partial to breaking down. Also, many people nowadays seem to have a much more flexible view of what constitutes “unreliable behaviour;” hell, I’ve heard stories of taking cars into the dealer for repair simply because they thought the trunk hinges sounded vaguely off. There was probably nothing wrong with the car, but the owner decided he/she would like to be fleeced by a dealer (and eventually complain about it on the internet).
Campisi-while what you say is true you can always apply a historical scale like that. You could say that ’60s Italian cars were so much better than French cars of 1910. Small comfort.
These companies have to compete in the present.
Keep in mind that on older cars many repairs were quick, simple and inexpensive. Today even relatively “minor” repairs can can run up $$$ fast.
The public has voted with their $$$ in recent years and they increasingly go with reliability even with a substantial price premium.
The Debt 3 has failed to see (the blinding obvious) criteria that the public wants with predictable results.
Cheerio,
Bunter
… while what you say is true you can always apply a historical scale like that. You could say that ’60s Italian cars were so much better than French cars of 1910. Small comfort.
I was thinking more along the lines of a GTV6 or a Series Three Spider (mid-Eighties cars), but my point remains valid. Nothing on sale in the U.S. market today is as unreliable as the sorts of vehicles that drove the domestics further into the ground even as recently as the mid-Nineties.
Campisi, So? Why do I want to settle for second-best?
By the way, labor rates and parts prices are up. “Not as reliable” can easily become “much more expensive.” And, more than ever, we rely on our cars. Sprawl has seen to that. Who wants something less than first-class reliability when you work 20+ miles from your home and the dealer is 15+ miles in a different direction?
Add in the kind of warranty “service” that menno encountered and you’ve got a situation people will pay to avoid. And they do.
monkeyboy: “Honestly now people. Would most of the readers here really know if a Asian vehicle was indeed actually better than a domestic without the pontifornicators saying they were first?”
What do you expect us to do? Operate a fleet of several hundred sedans before picking the winner and then buy that?
I’ve had several different makes of cars… one – Toyota – has been solid value in the kind of car I want. Pure luck? Maybe. But it’s the right kind of luck. I’m buying more of them.
There’s also independent agencies compiling stats on cars and this is valuable information. I have also discovered that I get more for my money if I take CR’s advice. I plan to do it more often.