Up to now, it’s been a two-way PHEV cat fight. Within the last 24 hours, Toyota said GM’s lithium-ion approach sucks eggs and took on GM’s Volt-only $7500 federal tax rebate. GM Car Czar Bob Lutz retaliated with “Eat My Dust” comments on his FastLane Blog. And now it’s a three way, with Honda telling the world that it just isn’t feeling the whole EV thing. “For battery-powered vehicles to become more widespread, more popular in the market, we feel battery technology needs to advance further,” Masaaki Kato, president of Honda Motor Co.’s research unit, told Bloomberg in an interview [quoted in The Financial Post]. BANG! “We just don’t see it providing the type of driving performance you get with a gasoline-powered vehicle.” BIFF! “The key is in the end we need to conserve the world’s energy resources and protect the environment for future generations,” said Jerry Chenkin, executive vice-president of Honda Canada Inc. OOOPH! “Honda is concerned that these other plug-in hybrid technologies are not really conserving anything.” ZAP! “Lithium-ion powered cars would not satisfy most consumers, since such batteries are costly and still hold less than half the energy of gasoline by weight, Mr. Kato said in the interview.” ZOWIE!
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Apparently, Honda’s IMS would not be able to utilize the advantages of Li-ion power, so it must suck.
Next thing you know, they’ll be telling us that hydrogen fuel cell technology is superior.
shaker, Has the Tahoe hybrid finally outsold the Insight, then? Never mind catching the Civic hybrid. The Tahoe hybrid hasn’t sold as well as Honda’s failures, has it?
So, who am I to believe about what works? Honda? Or GM?
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Why doesn’t someone just build a decent battery electric vehicle? It could be done cheaper than the Volt and, while the range might be strictly limited to a single trip around the metro area, multi-car suburban families and city dwellers with access to a plug just might buy the thing. The same battery that pushes the Volt, with its generator, gas engine and additional support systems to 40 miles would probably push a BEV much further.
There are many people out there, still happily driving their 100 mile range Toyota Rav4-EVs, which “suffer” from using old-tech NiMHs. Aim for that. People liked the Rav4-EV for a reason – it’s a decent car that happens to be electric.
As far as I can tell, what’s holding back battery electric vehicles is the battery electric vehicles themselves. The Zap rhymes with crap for a reason. Build something that resembles real car quality, safety and features and it would probably sell.
What is that slippery little red thing in the pic? I want one!
Anyway, yeah. Somebody’s gotta speak up about the current state of plug-in hybrid progress; or lack thereof.
I wish they still made that little 2-seater Insight. I’ll take mine in candy-apple red, with the standard tranny, please. It would make a great second car for those times I don’t need my .. er, “gargantuan”, “cavernous” Prius!
The same is actually true for the hybrid cars that are on the road today, so I don’t see the problem here. Either way the Volt is not only a plug-in, but also has its own powerplant on board.
But in the end both concepts are only transitions to test out new technologies.
While I’m at it, here’s something amusing about Toyota’s opinion on the Volt…
http://www.clusterstock.com/2008/8/toyota-tm-chevy-volt-gm-is-a-dead-man-walking
Apparently the Volt is _only_ a plug-in. It has now come to light–yesterday, I believe–that those of us who thought the Volt’s ICE was there to recharge the batteries are wrong. The gas engine cranks a generator that produces enough electricity (supposedly) to power the car’s motor, but it does nothing to recharge the batteries. The only way that will happen is via an overnight plug-in.
Its SOOO amusing to see the competitors make fun of our technology when historically they wouldn’t know what a car WAS without us..not to speak of the benefits we have made to their home economy!After all..what would the ‘slave’ shops ,oops lets make that “2nd tier suppliers” be without us!
First they copy everything we make..now they make fun of it!
Go figure
Jeez, oldyak, it’s 2008, not 1958.
My biggest concern is how plug-in electric vehicles will affect the power grid, especially if there are tens of thousands of them in every section of town all getting juiced up.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. And people will finally learn that once they take a look at their electricity bill.
shaker, Has the Tahoe hybrid finally outsold the Insight, then? Never mind catching the Civic hybrid. The Tahoe hybrid hasn’t sold as well as Honda’s failures, has it?
So, who am I to believe about what works? Honda? Or GM?
Since neither hybrid was a smashing success, why believe either?
It’s the same story, different characters. GM didn’t care for hybrid technology until they saw the success of the Prius, and now Honda isn’t feeling the PHEV technology, and won’t unless the Volt is a success, and then they’ll be eating crow, just like GM was when the Prius caught on like wildfire.
If the batteries only hold half the energy by weight and a electric engine runs at 95% efficiency with no reduction of power distribution (or need) by differential and transmission requirements. Batteries are rated with the knowledge that only 80% of the electricity is released. This problem is steadily being fixed.
The internal combustion engine uses gas at a efficiencey rate of 20%.
I think Honda or I are confused.
Stephan,
That’s a big surprise on how the generator is integrated into the PHEV system. Even the article linked to by ferrariman says that the generator will recharge the battery; I imagine the news isn’t traveling too swiftly. Can anybody comment on the advantages/drawbacks of the Volt’s setup?
I know many think that the Japanese are just envious of GM, but Toyota and Honda have enough research $$ and enough battery technology work on their side of the world to give their opinions some credence. Good luck, Volt early-adopters.
Apparently the Volt is _only_ a plug-in. It has now come to light–yesterday, I believe–that those of us who thought the Volt’s ICE was there to recharge the batteries are wrong. The gas engine cranks a generator that produces enough electricity (supposedly) to power the car’s motor, but it does nothing to recharge the batteries. The only way that will happen is via an overnight plug-in.
I believe the way I remember some information describing it is the gas motor does charge the main batteries, but rather than running the motor to fully charge the batteries the controller allows the charge to be increased by only a small portion. This would be done because it cannot make any assumptions about how much longer the vehicle will be away from a power outlet.
In the case of a road trip (to Vegas from LA) the engine would activate several times during the course of the trip to maintain a minimum level of battery charge. Assuming you are able to plug in at your destination you will then have saved the fuel required to charge the remaining 70% (80%, 90%, whatever) of your battery capacity.
See today’s Automotive News, where they reveal that there is no recharging going on.
Stephan Wilkinson,
If the engine were to fully recharge the battery, what use would the plug be?
How about this, Stephan: What is the engine doing if it is not charging the battery? The Volt does not use a Prius-style transmission that allows the electric or gas motor to power the wheels in any combination. The Volt’s wheels are driven solely by electric motors.
Perhaps the gas engine does drive a generator for directly powering the electric motors and must idle and rev to match the actual instantaneous power output required by the car after the battery charge is consumed. The simpler, and likelier, solution is for the gas engine to charge the battery while the electric motors operate the same way the whole time. This would have the effect of varying the charge on the batteries as demand changes while driving, but it would make the gas engine management much simpler as well. The generator connected to the gas engine is then simply generating electricity that is fed to the batteries.
What the matter with you people? Dont you know that GM is developing bleeding edge technology. They have the finest engineers the most innovative out of the box management and a long history of superior execution. The brand stand for quality in the minds of people around the world. Whoops did I say GM? I meant Honda, sorry.
re: The Volt
Somehow, the idea of the engine driven generator not charging the battery pack seems idiotic on the face of it.
So, when you’re under electric power, you’re lugging around a useless motor/generator set.
And when you’re under gasoline power, you’re lugging around a dead battery pack.
See the (lack of) logic, here?
Toyota and Honda dismissing GM technology. Interesting…
How should I read this:
1) GM has more advanced technology and they don’t, so of course, let’s bash the competition before the final product goes to market… so it may “fail”, or flaw the consumer perception towards it.
2) GM doesn’t really have THE technology. In this case the bashing is for “free”? Nothing is free in this industry.
Given that Nissan-Renault is quietly working on fully electric cars… ummm, I don’t know, but I think I’ll raise the BS flag to Toyonda.
Also, Toyota right now dominates the hybrid market, and will continue to do so, why cry foul? Will GM be able to sell the Volt in the same market conditions in Japan as Toyota sells Prius in USA? I doubt so. But is foul that GM has some tax breaks on the VOlt. Interesting.
And if I don’t remember bad, they also got tax cuts in some states for the Prius. Valid for Toyota but not for GM?
I think the size of the tax breaks GM gets is the crux. Didn’t Prius owners get substantially less than (all the while when GM – you know and it’s advanced technology status called hybrids a fad and that global warming a crock of shit) whereas the Volt will get a $7,500 tax credit? On top of that GM and the gang get $50B in loans to bailout fund that R&D for the Volt and its eventual rebadges (remember it’ll get fender vents in the Pontiac version – just like the exciting G3).
I think Toyonda has every right to call foul b/c GM is getting federal bailouts as normal R&D they should have been doing for the past 10-15 years. Ya know building competitive small cars and actually working on a production hybrid in the late 90’s – not a belt driven afterthought 7 years later and then finally a $50k suv hybrid! Now that’s a crock of shit. I’m fine if they call this money to save the D2.9 a bailout b/c that is what it really is. Don’t call it a research package and only limit it to the D2.8 b/c Michigan is a swing state. And people complain about how closely the MIT (Japan ministry of information and trade) works with Toyonda to help foster innovation and technology.
What is wrong is that D2.8 live in a vacuum and only get on capital hill to help them make more short term profits or side step gas mileage standards so they can give dividends to their real bosses (shareholders). On the other hand in Japan they work on an entirely more effective level and that is collaboration and long term thinking. This sense of cooperation is what GM really complains about but GM won’t cooperate with our gov’t and vice versa. That business model of conflict no longer works in a competitive environment.
I’m racking my brains over this.I remember a comment in an article where someone said that there’s a rumor about the senior execs at Toyota having a really old bottle of sake or something that they will drink to when one of the big 2.8 declares bankruptcy. Who said that?
Stingray: “GM has more advanced technology…”
Exactly what “more advanced technology” does GM have? A battery? They don’t own that and they don’t know if the one they want to use works in the long haul (see earlier article on warranty provision). They don’t know if they can build the car cost-effectively and, in fact, they have only a prototype. In fact, NEXT year is when “production intent” drivetrain meets “production intent” body.
Stingray: “I think I’ll raise the BS flag to Toyonda.”
Raise the BS flag to Toyonda? Try again… Lutz, writing on FastLane, said, “I suspect most of our competitors will have vehicles with technology similar to the Volt within four or five years.”
Lutz doesn’t even have a car and he thinks competitors are going to try to catch up to it? Lutz should spend his time worrying that the compeitition will actually build a Volt before he does.
Stingray: “And if I don’t remember bad, they also got tax cuts in some states for the Prius. Valid for Toyota but not for GM?”
Those tax credits were offered to a range of vehicles and, in fact, credits may still be in force that would apply the the GM whybrids. Toyota’s beef is that the credit is so narrowly defined that it’s ridiculous. I agree… the credit rewards a particular sliver of technology – for no obvious reason – giving it an unwarranted boost. Like corn likker ethanol.
GM should be concerned about that, too… there’s no reason Toyota or Honda couldn’t build a vehicle simply to take the credit. And it would steal GM’s thunder.
shaker: “So, when you’re under electric power, you’re lugging around a useless motor/generator set. And when you’re under gasoline power, you’re lugging around a dead battery pack. See the (lack of) logic, here?”
That’s pretty much how I see it, too. Factor in the cost of that oft-dead battery pack and the car doesn’t seem economical. Or am I wrong and a $40K “economy car” makes some kind of perverse sense?
See the (lack of) logic, here?
That’s pretty much how I see it, too.
I believe shaker was being sarcastic.
Maybe Honda has some long term forecast that oil prices and then gas prices will drop again (think $3.25) and they have figured it up that we need $4 gas to make a full EV or PHEV financially sensible.
One reason we aren’t getting any EVs right now is that Chevron has locked up the NiMH patents and won’t let anyone play with them until 2010 when the patents runs out – according to Wikipedia. We can have small NiMH batteries, just not large EV style batteries.
Another may simply be that Honda can’t deliver a plug-in or full EV with batteries it can be confident will last 200K miles (Honda apparently designs vehicles to last longer than GM’s 100K miles). NiMH looks promising but I mentioned why that won’t happen. There are Rav4-EV owners who have 150K+ miles on their batteries.
The other battery tech is still much more expensive and doesn’t last as long as NiMH batteries so far.
Phoenix Motor Cars says they will have a SUT (think Subbie Baja) or CUV available next year. I think there is a fleet version available now. $40K. At today’s prices you could own one for free for the price of driving a 17 mpg vehicle for 200K miles. Notice I did not mention the initial or residual cost of the 17 mpg vehicle.
Sounds fine to me for second vehicle duty.
Not sure if I could ever absorb the payments on a $40K vehicle though – even if in the long run the vehicle paid for itself. I’d certainly rather drive an EV commuter vehicle and save my ICE vehicles for the weekends and long trips.