Justin called me grumpy. That would be like the son of a Navy Admiral who’s been a high profile Senator for nearly three decades while marrying a billionaire beer distribution heiress calling the mixed-race son of a single mom from Kansas “elite.” But I digress, I was not so much grumpy as surprised that the new Audi S4 has less power than the new S4. Kinda surprising. That said, I always liked the older S4 with the twin-turbo 2.7-liter V6 more than I ever did the newer, heavier V8 powered S4. Sure, a WRX of the time (2002) ran circles around it, but you could slap a Stage IV kit on the old-old S4 and POW! Straight to the moon, officer! However, by all measures (both SAE and my fat butt) the C6 Corvette is the best ‘Vette ever. It just is. Sure you could factor in looks and interior (looks: C3 > C6 — interior: C2 > C6) but Corvette owners don’t factor in looks and/or interior. Meaning we’re not going to either. And if the new Camaro ever shows up, it will be miles better than any of its ancestors. I know this because the 2015 (or is that 2010?) Camaro is based on a shortened version of the Zeta Chassis that underpins my new love, the Pontiac G8 GT. However, however — what about the BMW M5? If you pull the limiter off the new one (E60 M5), it can go over 200 mph and it seats five. 507 hp V10, too. But, compared to the E39 M5, the new M5 is Robocop II. Bigger, louder, more deafening but ultimately not nearly as satisfying or more importantly fun as plain old Robocop. That’s right, I’m calling the E39 M5 Robocop. [Ed – you bet your ass it is]. Newer cars might have better stats, but sometimes they just don’t have the spirit. You?
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Yes, the end of the 80’s and the early 90’s was the beginning of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I remember the E34 M5, it had 315 hp! threehundredandfifteen !!!! The C4 Corvette ZR-1, almost 380! And it had a little key to turn the excessive power off, wife-friendly and all. And that was for sports cars. The Mercedes W140 and its almost 400 hp V12 was surreal in its block-like appearence. Nowadays you get 300 hp from an ordinary family sedan, and there’s almost a dozen cars in the 600 hp league. And that’s for cars that you actually can buy and drive legally anywhere… 600 horsepower seems to be the new 400.
e30 M3 is still more fun than its younger brothers :)
Horsepower has gone crazy. While I guess this is a good thing, it’s kind of ironic that every car manufacturer is scrambling to find ways to meet the new CAFE standards (or so they say), yet they’re still offering 250+hp family sedans.
Because horsepower is an easy, idiot friendly measuring stick to see who has the “best” car in the neighborhood. Everything else about the car (handling, comfort, torque, actual top speed, etc.) are pitiful excuses the loser uses to make themselves feel better.
I like my 1995 Nissan 240SX a lot more than my 2005 G35.
Also, my opinion is that none of the the new cute-utes can stand up to the fuel efficient practicality of my 2003 2.2 liter Isuzu Rodeo 5-speed; which was actually rugged (full length frame, live rear axle).
I will let history judge whether the Solstice is cooler than the Fiero.
I’ve only driven a old 528i and been in a 540i. They were good in a lot of ways. Not driven the new 5 though, I am not aware of which is better “to me”. I think the new one is a more dynamic racer probably. I have driven older A4s also. Ok cars, but again I think the new one will be a better car all around for me. I’ve driven fast in a straight line. Motorcycles and cars. Its scary and not dynamic like I need. So there I like a dynamic car. Some newer cars do that better “for me”. Still I own an e30, my bro an E36, his girl an E46, her dad an E90. My cars does somethings better, theres does somethings better. I like mines dynamics the most so far. The others are more comfy, stable, and faster. I like those things too, but fun on the street is complicated. I do not need to go too fast so far.
Nooope. Certainly not Toyota. They hired fat, lazy Americans to build their cars.
Sit in a 1992 Camry. Beautiful fit, soft, buttery plastics everywhere. 2009? Hard, brittle interior that’s all misaligned and crooked.
Don’t get me started on any new non-S/CL/CLS Mercedes!!!
I guess I’m either too old or spent too much time around classic cars from the 60’s and before (don’t even try to convince me that a 1982 Chevy Caprice wagon or a 1983 K car are classics just because they are over 25 years old), but when I think of comparing new cars to the older ones, I think in terms of the muscle cars before clean air standards ripped the guts out of them. If we just want to look at the cars in terms of comfort, safety, and speed, the old cars can’t hold a candle to the current offerings. As was hinted at above, if car anufacturers really wanted to meet CAFE standards, a big first step would be to offer tiny engines that would still deliver as much or more power as V-8s and inline-6s gave our parents 40 or more years ago.
However, one thing that the classics did offer was style. The look and sound of a 68 Mustang is unmistakable and glorious to my eyes and ears (and I wouldn’t throw a 68 Camaro out of my driveway either). The c1, c2, and c3 corvettes were magnificent. Impalas, Mercury Montclairs, Caddies, and many more were almost works of art on wheels. If only modern manufacturers could marry modern engiens and transmissions with the classic aesthetic. They don’t have to look like the classics, but why can’t they be distinctive?
My ’82 911SC was no daily driver. Its 996 and 997 successors have been. The SC was just too damn LOUD and where the hell do you put your left foot anyway when its not on the clutch pedal?
But it weighed hundreds of pounds less than any modern Porsche, and as my wife commented as we swung through curve after curve on a country road one day, “it feels like we’re flying.”
The newer ones have been faster, more comfortable, and certainly more reliable.
But isn’t the point of a sports car how it makes you feel?
Just decided to buy an E36 M3, so I’m with you there. The E39 M5 may be the next purchase. I hate the BMWs of late. They’ve really lost their way.
Wow! What a cleverly done video clip! Got to give credit where credit is due. Particularly amazing was how the guy in the Beemer could turn all those pages in the mini-booklet so quickly as to make it appear as if the rocket-propelled missile was actually moving. The wonders of technology!
Not long ago, a poster on this site wrote, “The worst car today is better than the best car 20 years ago.”
While I doubt this is the absolute truth, (a current Aveo is better than an the ’89 civic? nahhh.) I understood what he meant. It is largely true that most cars today are better than the best cars of 20 years ago, due to improved engineering, materials, and manufacturing and QA techniques used at both OEM’s and suppliers.
Not necessarily sure if that translates into value for the average owner. A 09 CamCord is bigger, faster, more powerful, heavier, less efficient, but safer, more comfortable and probably more user-friendly, but costs way more in real terms, and may not be as reliable due to increased complexity….so it’s probably a push.
Nature’s most nearly perfect car is the E39 BMW 530i. So in a way, yes, they don’t build them like they used to.
But in a lot of ways, the build them much, much better, especially in terms of safety. It’s now possible to buy an entry-level car (Versa, Fit) that isn’t a deathtrap. Say what you will about the Geo Metro’s mileage figures, you’d pay for that with your ribcage in the first major accident.
Cars don’t seem to go bad as quickly, either. For all the kvetching about mechanical simplicity, old cars flat sucked when it came to keeping things running. Tuneups were constant, wear and misalignment were constant issues and electronics were guaranteed to fail. With the advent of the body computer and electronic fuel injection, ownership is a lot more pleasant for those of us who don’t have the time to wrench.
Sit in a 1992 Camry. Beautiful fit, soft, buttery plastics everywhere. 2009? Hard, brittle interior that’s all misaligned and crooked.
I’m of two minds about this. Harder plastics are generally more durable, and the only reason we like soft dashboards is that, historically, dashes were leather. That’s it. Leather and soft plastics scratch, fade and dry out: the more durable ballistic plastics last much longer.
But yes, they don’t “feel” rich. But with judicious placement, it’s not an issue. My Honda Fit has the nicest leather steering wheel, and several of the primary controls have rubber rings around them. The armrest padding is a bit threadbare, but that’s it. Sure the dash is rock-hard–I had an 86 Corolla that was softer–but I don’t remember the last time I touched it (as evidenced by the dust, it seems). And the Fit’s plastic won’t go that funny sunbleached-blue that my Corolla went, I’d wager.
Older cars had a more direct feel to them that I miss. My Protege5 still has some of it.
The newer Sentra SE-R is nice, but I prefer the simplicity of the original B13.
Same goes for the Mitsubishi Eclipse. The new one may have more power, but you can’t argue with a turbo engine that can make power with the twist of a $15 aquarium valve and the awesome goodness of all-wheel-drive.
Any old Toyota Corolla is way better than a new Corolla. Build quality may be improved, but there’s just no soul to them, and there hasn’t been since they switched them to FWD..
Of course, some new things are better. Give me the new Civic Si anytime over any of the earlier Si’s.
And yeah, I’ll take the Focus (even the current one) over any Escort.
“That would be like the son of a Navy Admiral who’s been a high profile Senator for nearly three decades while marrying a billionaire beer distribution heiress calling the mixed-race son of a single mom from Kansas “elite.””
Learn from your elders and betters:
Elitism, the Culture Wars, and the Campaign by Victor Davis Hanson on September 21, 2008:
“Rather, elitism is a state of mind. It is a world view in which one’s refinements from the commons—whether they are natural or acquired tastes and interests, whether they be intellectual, musical, artistic, architectural, or simply social—are seen as exclusive rather than inclusive.”
arapaima- yes,horsepower is a measurement for idiots.
The Aveo is a lot nicer than a 1989 Civic
There is a bit less of a visceral feeling these days due to the “isolation” school of design. Plenty of insulation makes for a cocooned feeling, but cars are definitely better, if only because you don’t expect to get killed so easily.
Today’s cars are better than the cars in the past, just like athletes are better than they were in the past.
It is the constant struggle in all life to improve, although I am a sad disappointment in our family’s procession forward.
The past car greats have seared a memory and place in our hearts and minds, they are still that…past points of greatness and acheivement.
Today’s great cars are monuments of today for memories tomorrow.
The car I should never have sold is a 1995 E36 M3. It had 240 HP, was plenty fast, and the steering had the feeling of a “live wire”. Today, I have three cars: 2000 E39 M5, 2007 GT3, and a 2007 Aston Martin. The one I like the most – the E39 M5. The GT3 is incredible on a track, but in every day driving, it feels like taking a Greyhound for a walk.
I think it depends on the manufacturer… I’d definitely agree as far as Mercedes. The older Mercedes my parents owned were tanks.
My ’98 Honda Prelude has similar power, torque, and weight to a ’08 Civic Si, however, driving them back to back is a little strange. I didn’t feel connected driving the Si, it was like driving a luxury car in comparison to the Prelude, which has my adrenaline kicking on every backroads drive. It’s almost hard to believe the Si’s lighter until you see it on paper.
I blame it on new crash regs and catering to a non-enthusiast customer base. If Mazda can get it right with 3, I don’t think anyone else has much of an excuse.
Michael Karesh says that older cars had a more direct feel to them, and my 1936 Chevy sure has a direct feel!!
That said, I would add; They don’t make them like they used to – Thank God!
Today’s cars are galvanized. Even the lowest cost car is rustproofed. That was not the case in the past.
Today’s cars are galvanized. Even the lowest cost car is rustproofed. That was not the case in the past.
And yet they rust away in a couple of years, unless you give them a proper rustproof undercoating. In the past, many manufacturers gave you this for free, but now you’re on your own.
“Elite” vs. “Elitist”. Jonny, you’re the best writer on the site, but you need to sort out the difference.
Edit: I didn’t see this pointed out above. Besides, the only reference that I had was on National Review, and good luck getting Jonny to click over there!
(Also, I’m making lunch bets all over the office that the electoral college swings right in 45 days.)
And yet they rust away in a couple of years, unless you give them a proper rustproof undercoating. In the past, many manufacturers gave you this for free, but now you’re on your own.
They rust either way. You have to keep them clean of salt and debris more than anything even with an undercoating and/or if you have your ride oil-sprayed during winter. In my experience at least /sheepish
Every car does not need to weigh two tons. Remember the one-ton sporty cars from the late 80s and early 90s? They were fun to drive despite only having 100 hp. You could drive these cars hard, at the limit even, and do it relatively safely. I’m thinking of the early Miata, CRX, Civic Si, and other compact sedans from that era.
Try that with any modern car. I would argue that with anything above 250hp, you’re basically just lugging it around town and not really using the car’s full potential. Can you really put the hammer down a lot in the 335i? Or even in the new Civic Si?
When I owned a 964 C4 many years ago (with less than 250hp), I remember that the car felt overpowered for daily driving. I was basically lugging it around town, only occassionally getting to hammer it on an on-ramp or something. Seemed like a waste.
I remember my ’62 Chevy Impala fondly. I was young, thin and I had a full head of hair. The world was an open place for me to discover. I was unmarried, had little responsibility, and a easy job that provided enough money for cigarettes, gas and beer. I ate and drank what I wanted with little detrimental effect on my health. Yes that Chevy was a good car. Now I am bald, overweight and achy. I work too many hours to pay for the mortgage and car payments, food bills, education costs, health care, utilities, and life insurance and cars have lost that spark they once had. They don’t build them like they use to. Gee that old Impala ran great.
barberoux, you’re gonna make me cry. I’m 27 and already those years are behind me.
In any event, I am thoroughly impressed with the R35 GT-R. I want one. I really do. If I knew that I could get an R32 GT-R stateside that was as reliable with a warranty I would want that one even more.
there’s some nice new cars out there, but no, they don’t build ’em like they used to. There isn’t a modern exotic car, other than the Audi R8, that I find even remotely interesting. Tons of old ones though.
’70 Camaro LT-1 > 2003 Camaro
’65 GTO 389 > 2004 GTO
’70 Monte Carlo >>>>> 2005 Monte Carlo
288 GTO > Ferrari Enzo
Ferrari Daytona > Ferrari F430
Jaguar E-Type > 2008 Jaguar XK
Old Mini > New Mini
240Z > 350Z
1996 Impala > 2006 Impala
Style and simplicity. I’d rather upgrade old chassis and engine to meet modern standards than start with modern stuff with less/no style.
I’ve never been more confident on a twisty road than I was in my ’87 Renault GTA. Perfection incarnate.
I miss my 1994 Ford Probe GT. Less than 2500 pounds, brisk 2.5 V6 and handled like the sexy lady she was…
@ psarhjinian
“Nature’s most nearly perfect car is the E39 BMW 530i”. My feelings exactly.
I just purchased a mint 2003 E39 530 (manual trans.) after driving the wheels off my E39 540 for several years. The E39 M5 was BMW’s finest hour.
romanjetfighter,
When it comes to new Toyotas, I agree. While they might be mechanically better (and I’m not even 100% sure of that), my 1997 Tercel has a more inviting interior than a new Camry. Shockingly, there is actually a strip of cloth on each door panel (heck, my 2006 Fusion doesn’t even have that). If simplicity is a measure of “better” then I tend to agree that some of the older stuff tends to feel more screwed together and robust. With 178k on the original drivetrain, I fully expect the little white Tercel to soldier on well past 200k. I’m not sure I can say that of the Fusion…
@Robert Schwartz
Ah, a lesson on “elite” vs. “elitism” given by someone referred to as a “better”
Was this actually a clever way to give a lesson on “irony” or “hypocrisy”?
I understand the phrase but in this context, it seems to be poorly chosen.
Older cars had a more direct feel to them that I miss. My Protege5 still has some of it.…
So very true. Today’s cars (and lets not forget a huge part of the picture – TIRES) have evolved enormously, and the result is better safety, cleanliness, higher levels of grip…but the feedback that older performance cars had is now masked by too much damn fat. In my early days of driving I realized that some cars that would be considered pretty crappy today were actually quite engaging to drive. Fast forward to today you have too much weight masking the feedback, and very high levels of adhesion with the road. 20 years ago you could really push it and enjoy some drift angles knowing that should you lose it, your overall speed was not so high that serious injury was likely should you – uh – misjudge. Contrast that to most cars today. Any drift around a curve is coming at a significant rate of speed. Lose it going sideways, and you are toast. Any wonder why the death rate in Vettes is so high?
tdoyle: I still have my 95 Probe GT…my first new car…nothing puts a smile on my face and relives stress like a high speed run at 11 at night. Running out of space for all these cars, though…
@Lumbergh21: I fully agree, but why were they almost works of art on wheels? I consider myself an art collector. :)
golden2husky :
Where did you get the info that Vettes have a high death rate? I’m not saying you made it up, but Vettes are known for having relatively low insurance rates (which isn’t hard when 3/4ths of owners are old men ;)). It is hard to probe the limits of a Vette without going way too fast for public roads, and the Vette isn’t the most communicative car out there either, but neither of these factors seem to have much of an impact on the ‘death rate’
I think the only ones who are qualified to talk about the elitism thing are people like Lynn Forester de Rothschild. I mean, you have to be really filthy rich to know how hard it it to maintain the common touch. You need expensive image consultants who train you in stuff like bowling, Nascar and whatnot, and you have to take it seriously too. An upstart like Obama — he’s too busy with policy to really concern himself with all that.
“They don’t make imposters like John Wayne anymore”, T-Bone Burnett
Mike66Chryslers:
Okay, I probably should have left almost out of that sentence. :)
As far as utility, the simplicity of the old cars is nothing compared to the electronically controlled modern cars. Anybody who has a true classic (pre-electronic control systems) knows how much maintenance they require to keep on the road. 2,000 mile oil changes, 1,000 miles between lubing, and adjustments to the timing at least once per year, just to name a few maintenance intervals.
I too agree that simplicity is a good measure of a better car. There seemed to be a point in the late 80’s and early 90s where cars had enough creature comforts but were not yet porky and complicated to maintain.
My 1st gen CR-V (’99) still has some of this by accident I think. Honda was going for cheap but what we actually got was a vehicle that is simple but lasts and lasts. No touchscreens, no NAV, no gimmicks. I have been in several cars I thought were MUCH nicer but all seemed to promise massive problems later in their lifespans. For a family hauler it is lightweight (3300 lbs). Seems heavy until I remind myself that our VW Cabrio is only 500 lbs less.
I have spent time debating with myself, trying to talk myself out of buying a late 80s or early 90s Mercedes, Audi or BMW. Refinement with durability if the gremlins are conquered.
I don’t need massive power or speed. I need a touring car. A wagon. Something that can exceed the speed limits a fair bit (and anything recent and German certainly can) and haul the family. Not anything I’d want to drive everyday b/c it would be a waste but something for the weekends.
Suv vs minivan vs German wagon… Hmmmm…
I once drove cars from the 40s, 60s and 70s as daily drivers. Even into the 1990s. These cars defined basic in my mind. They were easy to maintain (an important measure quality to me) but that was good because they required alot of maintenance relative to a modern car.
A vintage VW Beetle I once drove daily required oil changes every 2500 miles, valve adjustments, four wheel brake adjustments, hand brake adjustments, oiling of hinges, timing and points adjustments, carb adjustments, checking of the cables, and checking of the wheel bearings. Now, I got good at this maintenance cycle and found it to go quickly but when it is raining and cold and I don’t want to do the work – a modern car is better. On the flip side that old Beetle could easily be fixed with my Swiss Army knife and total cost to operate was very, very low. Also an important measure of a vehicle’s value to me. Its a trade off. I am once again considering going back to a VW Beetle for daily transportation. My commute is short and at slow speeds in a small town so safety is not as important as a commute in a big city like Nashville or Knoxville.
With my more modern cars I balance the desire to have something new(er) with low miles so I don’t have to work hard to maintain it vs what I have which is 11 yrs/155K+ miles old and requires my attention at least once a season to get all the repairs off the list. It’s cheap to operate but since I do all of my own work, it means I have to allocate the time and energy in between family, work and play time.
I learned to drive on my father’s 1973 AMC Gremlin. It was certainly simple and easy to fix (which was a good thing, as it need fixing on a regular basis).
Do they make them like that anymore?
No, and for that we should all be very, very thankful.