It was only a matter of time until someone had something negative to say about the ever-expanding fleet of hybrid taxis in New York City. While I’m not in the hybrid car fan camp generally, they make perfect sense for a place like Manhattan. Driving takes place nearly exclusively short of 30 mph (except for costly interboro trips), meaning the electric motor really gets a workout. They’re quieter, and considering the traffic density in Manhattan, the reduced emissions actually are appreciated. Not to mention, hybrids need high intensity field testing. What better than 24-hour a day abuse? Well, not everybody agrees with me. C. Bruce Gambardella, P.E., an engineer that claims to be nothing short of a world renowned expert in the field of taxi cabs, thinks the hybrids totally suck (paraphrasing). Mr. Gambardella’s report was funded by a lobbyist organization called the Metropolitcan Taxicab Board of Trade. We’ll give you one guess who they represent – the taxi owners. The report claims that the modifications required for hybrid taxis make them inherently unsafe. Among the charges: plexiglass partitions between the drivers and passengers will interfere with side airbag systems (how often do those go off when everybody drives under 20 mph?), that hybrids are unsafe as taxis because they aren’t built for heavy duty driving (Manhattan potholes apparently better the Rubicon), and because hybrids are horrible, terrible vehicles. Also, Gambardella reports, hybrids are for grandmothers and liberals. Taxicabs need to be robust Panther platform cars that get 11 miles per gallon. Oh, and the Metropolitan Taxicab Board of Trade filed a lawsuit yesterday against the City of New York, fighting the requirement that all cabs switch over to hybrids in the next several years.
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In live and work in NYC, and I can tell you the only unsafe part of ANY taxi is the nut behind the wheel.
I wonder if GM could squeeze their two-mode transmission and battery into a 1968 Checker Marathon sedan?
I wonder how hard it would be to make minor modifications to the Prius so side airbags worked as intended? Call it the “taxi” version. Add a few $k to the cost….I was in NY 2 weeks ago and taxis are EVERYWHERE. I think my wife & I saw 50 as we were leaving penn station in the first 5 minutes as we we were walking.
“…that hybrids are unsafe as taxis because they aren’t built for heavy duty driving (Manhattan potholes apparently better the Rubicon)”
How is a hybrid inherently less well built than a normal car? Last I checked, electric motors last at least as long as ICE. Batteries wear out eventually, but so what? Replace them. Everything else in the car is the same as a non-hybrid.
Or is it just that Cabbies love their Crown Vics and never ever ever want to change?
I don’t think its even really the taxicab drivers, but the cab OWNERS who are sponsoring this.
As an owner (leasor), it ups the cost (you pay for the car and someone else drives it into the ground.)
As a DRIVER (lesee), its a huge savings, as the gas costs come out of your take.
For any urban core, eg, Vegas, New York, SF, the Prius is probably the best cab for the DRIVER, but it does up the cost for the owner.
Do the Panthercabs have side airbags?
It’s really astounding how far people will go to resist progress. In Mexico city (correct me if I’m wrong, I’m citing from memory) there were vociferous protests when it was proposed that VW Beetles (the old type) should no longer be used as hacks. I think the protesters lost, and I hope this is one area where NYC is no different from Mexico.
These bozos should realize that higher gas prices leads to higher fares which leads to New Yorkers seeking other forms of urban transportation. Isn’t there a subway there? Wake up, Mr. Gamberdella.
actually, very few of the hybrid cabs are toyotas in nyc. the vast majority are ford escapes. the prius is just too damned small. there are a few hybrid highlanders and camrys in the mix, too.
the two most practical cabs for passengers are the crown vic and the sienna. saddly neither is hybrid.
Toyota do hybrid minivans for the JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) and would be EXTREMELY smart to sell them as dedicated taxicabs for New York and wherever else they can do so.
I understand Prius cabs are in use in Canada and are running 200,000 miles to 250,000 miles in two years without any traction battery failures.
Perhaps Toyota would be smart to offer a dedicated Prius taxicab with an extra 15 cm (6″) in the body behind the front seat, built-in barrier, steel wheels (they have them & sell them for snow tire use now), special side air bags for use with the barrier, etc.
Alternately the new Honda Insight could do the same thing – have a stretched center version.
KixStart:
“I wonder if GM could squeeze their two-mode transmission and battery into a 1968 Checker Marathon sedan?”
This is the best suggestion so far. Those old checker cabs were great for passenger ingress/egress and overall comfort. They were also probably large enough to host GMs 2 mode system without reducing the size all that much. Come on! Bring back an icon and update them with a modern efficient powertrain!
@Martin Schwoerer: front thorax airbags, no head protection at this time. Future CV’s will be fitted with a combination head/thorax airbag. Who knows if those are compatible with the plastic partition between the driver and passenger.
Edit: probably, looking at this picture of one
The side curtain airbag-perp/customer partition issue is real. Ford had an internet hissy fit about that issue with the Panther and is now finally developing an option where the side curtain airbags attach to the front seat instead of the roof pillar (no curtain for the bad guy in the back). A similar trick is done on many convertibles such as the Miata, which Ford probably lifted the technology from.
Given the extreme problems and whining (Ford initially wanted a side curtain airbag exemption for the cop/cab Panthers) that Ford has had related to this issue I would guess that Toyota already has it solved.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Toyota offers a heavy duty suspension package soon also.
My guess would be that the Metropolitcan Taxicab Board of Trade is throwing out the hybrid critiques out as a red herring, and that the real (and arguably legitimate) issue is that they will now have to buy new hybrids instead of dirt cheap used pissed in cop cars.
plexiglass partitions between the drivers and passengers will interfere with side airbag systems
How is that unique to hybrids? This has nothing to do with the power system. Now they are just making stuff up.
Menno, those seem like very practical suggestions (except maybe the stretched body, which might not be all that easy to engineer). Certainly the steel wheels would be better for the mean streets of NYC, and the plexiglass partitions could have cutouts to allow full deployment of the side curtain airbags. (These airbags don’t project very far inward anyway; they deploy mostly downward.)
I agree though that most common hybrid I’ve seen in NYC is the Ford Escape. The Crown Vic still rules overall, but I guess its days are numbered. The Toyota Sienna is quite popular also (not a hybrid of course in the US).
I don’t understand the alleged issue with the CV side airbags. Since its 2003 refresh, the car has always had optional side airbags that deploy from the seat to protect the heads and torsos of front seat occupants. It has never had a side curtain airbag.
I bet the wording of the hybrid requirement would allow for the Panthers to be “mild” hybrids. And Gambardella says “hybrids are for liberals”. Does he know he is in NYC?
I think Nicholas is right. Taxi fleet owners probably prefer the panthers, and their shops are tooled to repair those…not to mention I’m sure many of them know where to cannibalize parts and all that. So switching to other vehicles is expensive for them.
But the panther sucks for passengers anyway, compared to the minivans that are also used as taxis, and are far roomier.
The prius seems a bit on the small side for a taxi. As for the escape, it’s being used by all presidential candidates when they need to be seen, so I guess it’s big enough.
no_slushbox
IF Ford lifted the technology from anyone, it was likely Volvo.
And I saw a Malibu Hybrid and an Altima Hybrid in NYC two weeks ago.
The Malibu, especially, looked sharp. And they have plenty of rear legroom and trunk space. I’ve been seeing Prius taxis, but I can’t imagine they have anywhere near enough room for the partition and passenger legs. The Escape hybrids are everywhere.
Though, I will miss the excessive legroom offered in the LWB Crown Victoria that they’ve been using since 2002.
This is a vaild arguement!
Remember these guys drive and transport people for their livelyhood, it is a bit different than owning and operating your own personal vehicle.
Considering the high price of insurance minimizing any injury that might occur in the cab do to accident is a primary concern for them.
IIAC many law enforecment agancies make the same claims that the FWD vehicles are NOT capable of handling the same amount of abuse as the good ole body on frame Crown Vics.
There have been a few accidents already involving the “newer” types of cabs and the results have been a greater and more serious injury and death than what can be expected in body on frame Crown Vics.
I can recall one story about a Minivan cab being broadsided, tipping over and ejecting the passangers leading to death. A Crown Vic with its lower center of gravity would not have tipped or ejected the passangers.
Automobile accidents are strange creatures, while two cars may get the same 4 or 5 star rating in a crash one might allow you to simple walk away with no help while the other will require the “jaws of life” to free you from the vehicle.
I think Minivans make for excellent cabs in terms of their practicality but I will always get into a Crwon Vic before anythign else. I have seen CV do very well in accidents with SUVs. I have also seen CVs adn SUVs all but crush other unibody cars in serious accidents.
A city cab is probably the best use for a hybrid car I can imagine. Other than that, they ARE for grandmothers and liberals. But there’s plenty of those people in NYC, so again what’s the problem? Oh and since when is the the operation of the side curtain airbag relative to the hybrid powertrain?
SF has been taking a completely different approach. While the Escape hybrid is becoming fairly common as a taxi (and performing similar 300,000 mile runs as its Crown Vic counter part), the rise in the number of (non-hybrid) used Camrys, Tauruses and Altimas is huge. Turns out you can get 15 instead of 10 zipping around in these cars like crazed taxi drivers. Oh wait… I guess the auto companies figured out what to do with the cars they dumped into rental fleets. But that’s a 50% improvement right off without the expense or worry about hybrid supply.
The number of Prii have jumped a lot too and I’ve seen a few Altima hybrids. There was a period where there were a lot of Chrysler products – those have dissappeared fairly quickly. A statement of reliability?
The only thing the Crown Vic has over hybrids is durability of all suspension and body components. The hybrid Escapes and Prii are not overly retrofitted for taxi use. The Crown Vic uses similar suspension and body upgrades that cop cars have. One Prius drive was talking about his great mileage (he was getting 29) but complaining about being in the shop every couple weeks for a new shock, control arm, bearing, body panel, etc. etc. The powertrains of the hybrids are doing well, though.
As for safety… Frankly, no cab is safe. Side airbags or no. The driver somehow managing 29 in his Prius sees to that.
Frankly I’d like to see the major Taxi cities (NYC, London, etc.) put out a common RFP with a guarantee to require that owner/operators dedicate a certain, relatively high, per cent of their fleet to the winning bid. This would make the investment worthwhile for car manufacturers and would result in a truly modern taxi. The world’s most memorable taxis (the British Beardmore cab and the USA Checker)were purpose built and owned their markets for decades.
There have been some efforts in this direction (see http://www.designtrust.org/projects/project_06taxi07.html)and many of the barriers are policy based rather than technical.
Frankly, the back seat of either a Prius or a Ford Escape is too small for me. It’d be great to see a dedicated design.
Clever finns have already done it. This thing just beggs to be mass produced for the big metropolitan cities.
http://www.citycab.stadia.fi/
Maybe if cabbies drove better they wouldn’t need Panthers. Then again, NYC roads are terrible, people often take a cab when they are in a hurry, and cabbies make more money per hour if they drive fast.
I bet the fuel savings of a Hybrid do not offset the cost of ownership. Especially when I saw an absolutely gutted Crown Vic body sitting outside a cab depot near the Javits Center, waiting to provide free parts to its running brethren: they took every part from that car, even the frickin’ fuses!
A few minutes later I saw a cabbie jump a curb to avoid traffic. He’s gonna learn the hard way not to pull that stunt in a FWD car.
My guess would be that the Metropolitcan Taxicab Board of Trade is throwing out the hybrid critiques out as a red herring, and that the real (and arguably legitimate) issue is that they will now have to buy new hybrids instead of dirt cheap used pissed in cop cars.
All yellow medallion taxi cabs in NYC must be purchased as NEW vehicles and if I am correct can only be used as a taxicab for about 2 years at most.
It is also important to understand that Hybrid Medallion is cheaper and easier to get in NYC and has been for a while.
I always had a problem with the idea of paying for a ride in a Crown Vic when criminals get them for free from the police.
i have to drive in NYC about twice a month for work, taxi drivers there are by far the most obnoxious drivers on earth ( OK, i’ve never been to Cairo). Anything that aggrivates them i am in favor of. If they are bothered by hybrids, please pardon me – fuck ’em.
Wow, that felt good.
whatdoiknow1: “I can recall one story about a Minivan cab being broadsided, tipping over and ejecting the passangers leading to death.”
Seat belts save lives. Well, they prevent ejections, anyway.
whatdoiknow1: Wikipedia didn’t say anything about them having to be purchased new, but it did say they have to be less than 6 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Taxi_&_Limousine_Commission
In Chicago they do have an age limit, but they are almost all beaten up cop cars, except for the maroon Crown Vics, which are new and long wheelbase.
I do like the New York requirement that all taxis be yellow; in Chicago some of the cabs have white as their base color and can freak a person out in the rear view mirror.
Well, for years I’ve been preaching about taxi stands in NYC but nobody listens. NOT driving saves fuel over driving every time.
Also, NYC cabs do NOT need 8 cylinders. In fact, with far fewer ponies the whiplash-inducing driving style of cabbies would be greatly reduced. Why not a good 4 cyl diesel in that crown vic? Hell, issue that RFP to retrofit a freakin hybrid drivetrain in them! There’s nearly enough room to fit a whole Prius under the hood – the motor will surely fit!
@menno – “Toyota do hybrid minivans for the JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) and would be EXTREMELY smart to sell them as dedicated taxicabs for New York and wherever else they can do so.”
Unfortunately JDM is a right hand steering market. The vehicles would have to be re-engineered to place the steering wheel on the left for the US, which of course would increase the cost.
What type of Mad-Max hellhole necessitates taxis being outfitted like prison transports? Perhaps their efforts would be better spent teaching people to act civilized.
I’ve always thought that Toyota should bring their JDM version of the Sienna over here and everywhere else. It’s VERY desirable! It’s called the Estima in Japan, and has a slimmer & narrower body. But it’s über sexy~~~and it’s a van! Here’s the link: (the 4th & 5th rows on the left side of the page are photos of the exterior and interior, enjoy~!) http://toyota.jp/estima/index.html
Wikipedia didn’t say anything about them having to be purchased new, but it did say they have to be less than 6 years old
Wikipedia is of the devil.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/tlc/downloads/pdf/specrules.pdf
(b) Except as otherwise provided in subsection 3-01 (c)* **, a vehicle may be
hacked-up only if it is a new vehicle that meets all of the following
requirements:
(1) It is purchased in the first sale from a licensed dealer or a manufacturer. An original of the manufacturer’s certificate of origin (MSO) or of the certificate of title must be submitted, in addition to relevant documents of ownership.
(2) The vehicle must be of the latest model year available from the manufacturer or of the model year immediately preceding the latest. When a manufacturer ceases production of a model, then vehicles of the last two model years may only be hacked-up until September 30 of the calendar year, two years subsequent to the designated model year. (For example, if Chevrolet ceases production of the Caprice after the 1996 model, then a new vehicle of the 1996 Chevrolet Caprice may only be hacked-up until September 30, 1998.)
(3) The vehicle must have accumulated fewer than 500 miles traveled, at the time of hack-up.
“Hack-up” means to outfit a vehicle as a taxicab and obtain approval from
the Commission for that vehicle to serve as a taxicab, for the first time.
Nicodemus : >
Alot of the little mail trucks here have the steering wheel on the wrong side, and they are everywhere! I don’t necessarily see why taxis have to be an exception….people get in the back. It doesn’t matter if the steering wheel is on the right or left in the front since passengers (usually) don’t sit there.
Given the sheer success of the London Cab I’m surprised something like that hasn’t caught on over here.