Despite the gloomy economic outlook in the NA car market, VW is surprisingly chipper. VeeDub’s convinced that the demand for the diesel Jetta may be higher than the forecast. “It certainly met and probably exceeded our expectations,” claims Mark Barnes, CEO of VW NA. August sales of totalled 2,417 units, 11,217 year-to-date. One reason for the cha-ching: the diesel Jetta qualifies for a $1300 federal tax credit. That put its “diesel premium” at just $770 over its gas-powered sib. VW CEO Martin Winterkorn sees the Jetta’s success as the particulate end of a NA wedge. Marty predicts a U.S. “diesel trend” based on the current oil burner’s robust powertrain and high resale values. Mike Omotoso is equally bullish. “We expect the diesel market to grow and actually overtake the hybrid market over the next seven years,” J.D. Power’s “engine analyst” remarked. Never mind the forthcoming release of the Chevrolet plug-in electric – gas hybrid Volt, the Mississippi-built Prius and the increasing popularity of frugal fours. In other words, in your dreams boys.
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I recently test-drove one of these, and my conclusion is that it’s fun to drive in a way that a Prius just isn’t. As one of the B&B pointed out here previously, diesels aren’t so much an alternative to a hybrid, but rather a more fuel-efficient alternative to more fun-to-drive vehicles.
I think if they can get diesels in at lower price points they can undercut the hybrids. I would imagine a diesel golf/rabbit starting at 18 grand would look good next to a 20-something thousand dollar hybrid. Also they really need to market the fuel savings from the engine while making it clear that the car isn’t a miniature semi truck. I.E. focus on the cleaner emissions, lack of rattle, quiet engine, etc.
As for reliability, it appears that the last couple of years have seen some improvement among the VW small car line,at least according to true-delta.
Why not combine the two? I’m never going to consider any of the current hybrid models. But add a diesel engine to a hybrid motor, and I’m interested. Could it be that 60+ MPG’s in an every-day usable vehicle would be possible? I’d sure hope so, and I’d think that would be enough for a lot of people.
VW’s much bandied about unreliability is based on the gassers, not the diesels. I’m on my second TDI and it’s had very few problems, just like the first one. Most TDI owners say the same. An just taking a test drive will amaze most open minded souls. When the Japanese diesels get here there will be a huge swell for diesels, mark my words.
Dimwit:
VW’s much bandied about unreliability is based on the gassers, not the diesels.
No, it’s based on all the other shit, especially the electronics.
Cammy Corrigan
The problem is not diesel vs hybrid.
The combination of the two might actually be popular and soon.
I test drove the newest Jetta, but only the sedan as the wagon was not available.
It was fun and very quick.
I found I wasn’t interested after seeing the back seats…very thin and hard.
Not exactly what I was looking for in a road cruizer.
And diesel for the highways was what I wanted.
But soon…BMW and Honda bring their diesels.
BMW this Holiday season and Honda later this spring.
VW can’t be all that crazy if Honda is right there with them.
VW’s much bandied about unreliability is based on the gassers, not the diesels
I disagree. Most of VW’s problems are with electronics, trim and supplementary/accessory systems. Yes, the gas engine has the extra amusement of having to deal with ignition issues, but it’s not like TDIs are cheap to service, especially not at dealers. That BlueMotion emissions system is certainly not going to be cheap.
Why not combine the two?
It’s not really worth it. Diesel/electric doesn’t see quite the same efficiency benefits as gas/electric, and carries a huge price premium: diesel requires a stronger block, expensive injectors, complex emissions controls and a turbocharger. Add that to the already-steep premium of a hybrid motor/generator and battery and you’re looking at quite a step in cost.
If VeeDubya would adjust pricing so that the TDI engine was always just a $700 option, they’d see even better long-term sales pick-up. And by “$700 option,” I do NOT mean a’la Ford EgoBoost. That is, make it a $700 option over the base engine–not the V6.
Wait, they do still put a V6 in the Jetta, right? You’d have thought they quit making it since gas has been in the neighborhood of $4/gallon. Used to be the VR6 and it’s Siamese twin W12 were the things VW beat it’s chest about. Today, not so much.
TTAC is collectively ostrich like in its’ continued prejudice against diesel locomotion. But that’s OK I suppose, so are most other Americans. I think us diesel enthusiasts would appreciate it however, if a more even handed approach was taken. In the long run, the simple, efficient diesel WILL out run all the real (as opposed to pseudo) hybrids in terms of longevity and reliable service. Not just VW but all the others that will hopefully be with us soon.
TTAC is collectively ostrich like in its’ continued prejudice against diesel locomotion.
It’s not ostrich-in-the-san prejudice, it’s a voice of reason against the “Diesel, diesel, diesel!” chanting that seems to overwhelm this discussion anywhere it takes place.
Excepting in places where it enjoys a tax advantage, diesel has never captured majority market share, and the countries in which it enjoys said tax benefits, interestingly, are the same countries that are very much beholden to diesel engine manufacturers.
That should tell you something.
But that’s OK I suppose, so are most other Americans. I think us diesel enthusiasts would appreciate it however, if a more even handed approach was taken.
Such as what? Allowing diesel engines to pollute more than gas engines? Giving tax breaks to diesel fuel that would essentially amount to the same kind of market inequality as ethanol?
In the long run, the simple, efficient diesel WILL out run all the real (as opposed to pseudo) hybrids in terms of longevity and reliable service. Not just VW but all the others that will hopefully be with us soon.
Toyota has hybrids that are reaching serious mileage levels, and without the kind of ghost-in-the-machine issues that plague your average Volkswagen. I said this a few times recently, but I’ll say it again: other than armchair engineers, who cares about the theoretical strength of a diesel block when the whole rest of the car is falling apart.
Never mind that the simple diesel died nearly a decade ago with the coming of common rail injection. Modern diesels are not the slag-burning, low-tolerance, fixable-with-duct-tape-and-ball-pein-hammer wonders that diesel fans get all misty about. Have you looked at what’s involved in getting a BlueTec, Bluemotion or EfficientDynamics diesel to meet gas engine power and emissions benchmarks? Let’s review:
* High-strength block. It needs to be to handle the extreme stress of a turbocharged compression ignition. That’s not necessarily an advantage.
* Complex emissions system with expensive urea injection system that requires frequent replacement
* Extremely high-pressure fuel pump and injectors (to the tune of thirty thousand pounds per square inch, or enough to cut metal if contaminated). Those components are are very high-tolerance and very unforgiving of problems.
* Turbocharger. There’s a whole other system to worry about, right there.
* High-quality fuel. Again, you cannot use vegetable oil, farm-grade kerosene, many types of biodiesel, rendered fat and/or melted earwax if you expect a modern CTDI to function correctly. This is not your grandfather’s Mercedes 300D.
Does all that sound much simpler than a pair of electric motors and a battery attached a low-stress Atkinson four? The hybrid seems more complicated, but a modern CTDI is actually quite unforgiving of being in poor tune.
I’ll take a Toyota, Honda or even Ford hybrid over any European diesel if reliability is to be the deciding factor, thanks.
I’ve forgotten when and in what models Honda’s diesels are supposed to arrive. My two much-regretted VW experiences were long ago and not to be repeated; one was a diesel completely worn out bumper to bumper, including engine, after 100k miles. Honda’s fuel efficiency coupled with their durability should push VW aside I think in the spots where Honda chooses to compete.
Believe it or not:
— There are some of us who actually like to drive VWs. (Maybe that’s why their sales are up, not down like almost every other makers?)
— Some of us like our TDIs. (I just bought my second. Fuel costs me $0.10 a mile, or less. I get about 600 miles per tankful. The car is quiet and strong on the highway, at any speed and altitude. What more should I want?)
— All this year’s “allotment” of new TDIs is sold out. (Sounds like there’s a place for this car in the US market.)
I’m getting really, really tired of defending TDIs on this forum. That’s a fool’s errand, I know. When you look at all TTAC’s coverage, there aren’t many cars that meet your lofty standards, are there?
I don’t post this on every TTAC VW TDI thread, but enough that I hope it is gives people a chance to hear from a non-cheerleader type ex-TDI owner.
I had a 1999.5 New Jetta TDI. At 42,000 miles the engine self distructed when it ingested a valve. VW did replace the motor under warranty.
After that, on several occasions, it died suddenly and dramatically, leaving me stranded near and far from home.
My 2003 GTI has provided far superior service, and other than a few recalls has required nothing but routine maintenance for 87K miles.
TDI’s are not magic. They get great mileage, they provide a lot of torquey fun, but they are not the maintenance/repair free wunderwagens that proponents try to make them out to be.
Well, we never have ignition problems!
psarhjinian
Come on be fair…and admit you just don’t like diesels.
All we are saying, is give oil a chance!
Um, that sounds vaguely familiar.
Anyways, Diesels may have polluted a bit more, but they saved on MPG.
What are you gonna choose, oil imports or the air?
Europe chose the air.
But its consumers were allowed the choice.
Here we are not.
Perhaps the chanting for diesel would stop IF it was allowed.
How can you expect the chant to stop IF the chanters aren’t getting their choices?
And as much as you wish the diesel crowd would stop talking up their choice, I am one that can’t take anymore Hybrid performance bragging.
And the technology for diesels is pretty involved today.
But Jesus!
Everything is!
And talk about complex, hybrid tech is right there as well.
These are not the old fix it yourself days.
I am lucky they let me change my own oil today!
But as a happy hybrid side note, I test drove the Escape Hybrid this weekend.
Pretty nice pick-up and all around bright interior.
Very nice car…just a tad out of my cost for an in-law car.
Forgive my fragmented sentences…I have a fragmented mind.
psarhjinian is right. Developments in diesel technology are driven by relatively cheap diesel in Europe – it gets taxed lower there because of a strong trucking lobby. In the absence of the tax advantage, there is very little market for it.
A lifted Ram with 33″ tires and 8″ smokestacks in the Bed does not help the image.
It does not help their cause that the majority of light duty diesels sold in the US are 1 Ton pickups that were popular with the urban cowboy set until $5/gal diesel pounded into peoples heads that a
With the exception of a handful of Jeeps (10k CRD Liberties and <1000 Grands)
True enough, Red. You only notice the smoky, noisy diesels. My TDI Beetle is like the watchdog that didn’t bark, it’s harder to sleuth out of a roadside lineup.
Those toxic trucks are bad ads for diesels. It’s as if most of the hybrids were followed by tiny thunderstorms overhead, tossing out lightning bolts.
I am a diesel fan who will admit that we are a vocal bunch. However, we aren’t nearly as dominant as psar seems to think.
While vocal, being denigrated constantly and/or patronized to is the cause of all the comments, I think.
Having a crappy dealer network is not the car’s fault. If there were no good Honda dealer’s out that way then I wouldn’t be buying a Civic any time soon but that doesn’t mean that Civic’s are bad.
As for the technology “cost” that’s why there’s a premium for the engines. It’s nice to have something to point to if asked where the money went. Yes, you can find problems at an individual level for any technology but overall diesels last. They’re famous for it and justify that price premium.
As for that electronics problem, yep, the wiring harness for the ignition system and the starting coils have been a huge headache for VW. It seems to be getting better. BTW, guess what diesels don’t have?
I am a diesel fan who will admit that we are a vocal bunch. However, we aren’t nearly as dominant as psar seems to think.
Not here, no. But on Autoblog? Oi vey…
I actually do like having the option of diesels and I think they’re a good choice in certain circumstances. Personally, I’d pay the cost of urea injection because it really does help the air. If they were available from someone other than Chrysler, Mercedes, VW or BMW in North America, I’d probably even buy one.
What I am trying to do is slap some reality into diesel fans who should know better.
The problem I have is the carte blanche that diesel powertrains get from gearheads–usually when compared to hybrids–on the grounds of perceived reliability. A lot of the percieved simplicty is just that: perceived. Modern diesels are very complex, high-tolerance works of engineering, but there’s this luddite blindness in effect whereby some people get all misty-eyed about a ’82 Rabbit’s powertrain simplicity and transfer that virtue–unwarranted–to a 2008 Jetta TDI.
It’s a kind of gearhead Old Wives’ Tale that peopel have been clinging to for a long, long time and can’t seem to get past.
Yes, you can find problems at an individual level for any technology but overall diesels last. They’re famous for it
Yes, and you shouldn’t go swimming an hour or less after eating. Everyone knows that, yet it’s more or less entirely false.
This belief in diesel’s inherent robustness started way back when they were overbuilt to withstand compression ignition, while most contemporary gas engines were utter crap. It doesn’t take into account advances in materials science and fuel injection that make gas engines just as reliable as diesels, and it doesn’t take into account the aforementioned complexity that makes a modern passenger car CTDI a very different animal than a locomotive, tractor or even a passenger car diesel engine of twenty years ago.
Well it is true that a diesel engine is in some ways more complex that most of the petrol engines you can buy at the moment.
But mind you, a lot of these things have or will be going to gasoline engines as well. Just think about EcoBoost from Ford or the FSI technology from VW (direct injection and turbo or even twin-turbo).
Perhaps the future engine will be something like the concept that Mercedes-Benz showed on the last IAA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesotto
Now back to fact that Europe will be getting Diesel hybrids soon. There are a lot of these under developement right now, I guess that especially PSA is eager to be the first to market the concept as they are the biggest diesel engine producer in the world and they like to promote their engines as especially environment friendly. They were also the first car maker to introduce the particulate filter.
i think one of the best things about deisel is that they can burn vegitable and waste fry oil. Its a messy job, i hear, but it can be made at home. Other than home brewing, it seems to me that someone might make a business of it, that would be cool. Talk about local production! Around the philadelphia area, every other building is a fast food franchise. Gotta be lots of oil around.
I’m a big diesel fan whose fanaticism has been tempered in the last few years by the fuel price increases, as well as by better economy from modern gassers (esp direct-injected).
But I still maintain that if you replaced every two-car household with one diesel (for long trips/commutes) and one hybrid (for in-town errands), we’d make enough different to eliminate the need for unfriendly foreign oil.
I’d be very happy if we could just keep our oil within the NAFTA-zone, at least for stability’s sake.
i think one of the best things about deisel is that they can burn vegitable and waste fry oil. Its a messy job, i hear, but it can be made at home.
In a Rabbit or Merc from the 1980s, yes. In an brand-new E-Class or Jetta? I’d like to see you try.
Commercially-produced B10/B20/B100 is a different story from home-cracked biodiesel and/or straight veggie oil, and even it’s not recommended for many modern CTDIs. Oh, and it has a lot of the same net-energy-positive problems that Ethanol does.
But go ahead, keep fueling the mythology.
psar,
You are correct that many diesel fans think modern TDI engines will be as reliable as the old simple diesels, and they likely will not be nearly as robust.
OTOH, if an alternative won’t clog the injectors, it will still run in the new engines. If you clear out particulates, and especially if you mix the new alternative fuel with traditional diesels or alternatives, then you can burn a LOT of stuff, even in the new engines.
Ash,
You make a great point. Eliminating foreign oil is a ridiculous notion, but eliminating every source but our stable neighbors might be a reasonable and desirable goal.
I love my TDI, as I’ve said on here before. It’s a shame that so many people think modern diesels are bad. I don’t go around bashing hybrids, but I personally won’t buy one because I like having my own special pump as the fuel station. However, I won’t buy a 2009 Jetta at least for a few years, while I wait to see how bad or good the “new to us” common rail engines are in terms of problems and maintenance costs.
My 2003 Jetta has been extremely reliable, and the engine is similar to an old IDI engine that debuted on the Rabbit, with the exception of the added electronics and the turbo. Electronics are a weak link in a lot of German brands, but so far so good after 5 years. I plan to get 10-15 years out of my car, and I know I’ll achive it based on my past experiences with even badly maintained VW diesels.
Despite persistent evidence to the contrary, TTAC continues to predict that the death of diesel is neigh. Can someone explain the TTAC anti-diesel orthodoxy?
If I ever warm-up to hybrids it will take a long time. I am/was a diesel fan. You could trace it back to the 1978 Olds Delta-88 diesel that my grandad ordered new. My dad owns that car today. It still has the original 350cid diesel under the hood, and gets driven regularly in the warmer months.
My first car, a 1984 VW Rabbit diesel with 4-spd stick was gutless but returned excellent economy. It was also “reliable as a brick” and whatever did break was easy to repair or replace because it was mechanically very simple and didn’t have a lot of gadgets.
My second car, another 1984 VW Rabbit diesel, was a lemon, but I don’t blame the car itself. Before I owned it, the timing belt was serviced by someone who had no clue what they were doing, which caused all manner of badness. It’s the only car I’ve owned that I resold (at a substantial loss) instead of driving it to death.
My 1984 GMC van with 6.2L diesel was also very reliable, except for the injection pump which failed every 100,000km. I felt bad about parting with it when it was at 15 years old, but it needed way too much non-engine-related mechanical and bodywork to justify the time and money required.
I replaced the van in 2001 with a 1994 Dodge p/u with 5.9L Cummins. I’ve been very happy with it, and plan to keep it a long time still. When it does come time to replace it, I’m afraid that there won’t be anything available that suits my needs….
Modern diesels seem to be like gas engines in the late 1970s, with complex and finicky emissions systems thrown on. The engines themselves don’t appear to be as robust either:
VW TDIs require special oil or the injection pump will fail. Duramax have injectors that will crack and leak fuel into the crankcase. Powerstrokes have casting porosity that causes coolant to wind-up in the crankcase. Cummins have defective cylinder heads that result in the exhaust valve seats falling out. All of them are more susceptible to injectors clogging-up because the nozzles are much smaller than the old ones. They also have reduced fuel economy because of the way the exhaust particulate filter works. I haven’t looked into the Mercedes V6 diesel in the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Sprinter, so I don’t know if it’s more robust.
In short, I would be worried about the long-term reliability and repair costs of any new diesel available in North America today. I’m hoping to hear really good things about the smaller diesels that the big-3 are working on to put into their 1/2 ton pickups, and the diesel that Honda will offer in the Accord. I wouldn’t buy one til they’ve been on the market for a few years though.
“Also they really need to market the fuel savings from the engine while making it clear that the car isn’t a miniature semi truck. I.E. focus on the cleaner emissions, lack of rattle, quiet engine, etc”
Well, cleaner than old diesel, but most definitely NOT clean compared to modern gas engines – still much dirtier. It took a lot of shenanigans and dubious engineering (filters that may not last, etc) to get diesel to just barely be clean enough to be sold again in California – whereas hybrid engines such as in the Prius are substantially CLEANER than modern gas engines.
And all that extra stuff that had to be put in to make it marginally acceptable under modern emissions law makes the powertrain just about as complicated as a hybrid – but, again, much MUCH dirtier.
M1EK
Depends on how “clean” is defined. In Europe, it’s clean because CO2 emissions are low. In the US, it’s still very dirty because of NOx and soot, though much better than previous generations.
The biggest reason that diesels and hybrids won’t soon be combined in pass cars is cost.
Eventually folks will understand that it’s gallons per mile that count, not miles per gallon.
The yearly savings (at least at $5/gallon or less fuel costs) become pretty small above the 35-40 mpg level unless someone is driving massive yearly miles.
I’m going to stomp on that “dirty diesel” falsehood every time I see it. It’s misleading and meaningless to debate how “dirty” these engines are, because there’s no single measure of that. You need to break it down into individual pollutants, like :
– CO, hydrocarbons: diesels have an advantage here, emitting almost none of these
– NOx: diesel’s biggest weakness. But it only causes photochemical smog in hot, sunny weather, so I consider it a part-time problem
– particulates: another diesel problem, but one that’s addressed in the latest generation of TDIs. My older TDI only smokes upon full-throttle upshifts, which don’t happen often
– VOC (passive emissions from gas tanks and fuel spills): Not a problem at all, advantage diesel
– CO2: Less fuel burned equals less greenhouse gas emitted.
By my count, modern diesel engines show advantages in four categories of pollutants and trail gas engines in two. IMHO, that makes them cleaner than their gasser cousins.
i think one of the best things about deisel is that they can burn vegitable and waste fry oil. Its a messy job, i hear, but it can be made at home.
Speaking of which, I got a ’93 300D and took the “third way”, i.e. blending, a.k.a. low cost-high risk option. At least the initial costs are low. Blend: 80% waste cooking oil; 20% gasoline; bunch of solvents & additives. As long as I keep adding Diesel Kleen+Cetane Boost, she does OK. Bit less power, mileage about what you’d expect from the BTU content of the blend.
Not for the faint-hearted. Not sure it’s cost-effective either, assuming your spare time is worth anything. Maybe once I get the hang of it, or $150/bbl (or $5/gal) returns.
Wheatridger, hybrids beat diesels on every one of your metrics but VOC. They’re dirtier than gas engines on the metrics that hit us in the short-term (smog and particulates) and dirtier than hybrids on the global warming stuff (CO2, due to the fact that there still isn’t a contender that has been able to knock off the champ – the Prius).
The important thing is that both the Prius and the TDI are cleaner than most everything else on the road around us. I salute your choice. Why can’t you respect mine?
Not everyone wants to own a Prius. Not everyone wants to drive a Prius. You may enjoy your visibility as a green car owner or whatever, but I can’t tolerate the lousy visibility from within a Prius. It’s too low, both in roofline and ground clearance (Recently I saw a heavily loaded, low-riding Prius coming back to town from a camping trip. I spotted obvious damage to the undercarriage, which was riding about two inches off the pavement.) And a hybrid wouldn’t suit my usual driving duty of long distances, mountain roads and minimal time in stop-and-go traffic.
I’m not anti-hybrid. I’m glad they’re available and successful in the market. But I resist the pressure to conform to one solution, for all drivers and all roads. So what if a bicycle is even cleaner? You needed a clean, reliable car, so you got one. I wanted a cheap, fun-to-drive vehicle that behaves more like a conventional car– with a manual transmission, please — so I made a different choice. Let it be…
The important thing is that both the Prius and the TDI are cleaner than most everything else on the road around us.
Uh, no, new diesels aren’t cleaner than most everything else – at least most everything else of the same vintage, and at least not for the things most people think of when they say “dirty” (particulates, NO2). And a good non-hybrid gas engine like the ULEV Accord blows them out of the water.
I care about air quality first and foremost. I walk to work and I can smell even recent vintage (< 2008) TDIs when they drive by. They have no particulate traps and are still significantly dirtier than gas engines of a similar vintage.
The new clean 2008+ models I will give a chance to, but people can’t try to claim the best of both worlds here. You can’t think your are going to burn any old crap in the new ones, they are clean but is based on a high quality stricly controlled fuel input to start. VW is only doing warranty coverage with official B5 from what I read. Not backyard fryer grease conversions.
The 2008 Diesels are a new beast, the old negatives no longer apply, but neither are the old positives a given either. It is time to reset all the thinking on this and start benchmarking from now.
The same goes for MPG claims. The new cars are getting less mpg because they are bigger, heavier and have more power. What the heck did you think would happen?
Of course this is going to help VW sales shoot up for now. Diesel fans have been starved for a while, so there is pent up demand and no other options. Once the pent up demand is met and other diesels hit the market and more and cheaper hybrids, that growth won’t be sustained.
When $19K Honda Insights spool up with similar mileage on regular gas and Honda Diesel arrives will the VW sales do so well. I don’t think so.
But go ahead, keep fueling the mythology.
I’ve been running a TDI & a CRD on home-made fuel for years. Current cost: About $1.50/gal. That is reality, not mythology. Don’t knock it until you try it.
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org