Though Automotive News [sub] is better known for their comprehensive industry news coverage than their take-no-prisoners opinion pieces, Editor David Sedgwick doesn’t pull any punches while slamming the Volt in a recent editorial. Sedgwick admits to “a queasy feeling that GM has painted itself into a corner by generating so much hype for a car that is too limited for most consumers,” noting that weaknesses in both price point and capabilities will limit the Volt’s effectiveness in the market. The price point issue is well documented, but the Volt’s performance is what worries Sedgwick the most. In particular, GM’s apparent decision to use the E-Flex’s range-extending motor to simply generate electricity and not to recharge batteries looks to be an extremely limiting factor. “If you can’t plug in your vehicle at night,” argues Sedgwick, “that high-tech battery pack will be as useful as an anchor for your bass boat.” Sedgwick reckons that the forthcoming Cruze should be getting at least as much attention as the Volt. “We’ve been down this road before. GM doesn’t need a halo car. It needs a car — a small car — that can make money. If GM can’t learn to make money on small cars, it won’t survive.” Given a choice, Sedgwick would pick the Cruze, and if GM wants to stay in business it would do well to listen. After all, if a man who lives and breathes cars and is well-compensated enough to consider “your bass boat” a folksy analogy thinks the Volt isn’t worth the money, well… you get the picture.
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I don’t understand the “If you can’t plug in your vehicle at night…” remark. Doesn’t he understand that the Volt CAN be plugged in at night? That’s how you get the 40-mile electric range for the next morning. Indeed the most recent Volt ad I saw showed an extension cord running to the car, to a socket that seems to be under the driver’s-side mirror…
Dude, nobody is going to buy the Volt if they don’t have a place to plug it in. You’d have to be a moron to do that.
I do agree about the hype. That is what concerns me. Its blown so big that if they miss just one of their targets, it will result in huge disappointment. They would have been better served to maybe talk about the technology but leave final range and such open. Now, after hearing years of 40 miles on a charge, if they only hit 35, people are going to be sorely disappointed. And this isn’t Toyota or Honda where they might be forgiven. People will be looking at any angle to criticize being that it is GM.
I do keep my mind open. I keep hearing “won’t pay for itself in fuel savings” pop up. True, but neither does a Prius, yet people buy those things in droves. I also keep in mind that the first prius and insight were pretty crummy cars and not popular at all. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Volt gen 1 is the same way. I’m ok with that. If they’re reasonably popular and the vehicle can continue development by gen 2 and 3 we should hopefully see something pretty darn good, just like the Prius and Insight.
But the hype is the problem. Too late now. Better be sure you hit every last freakin thing you’ve pounded into people’s heads.
Wilkinson:
He means if you, for some reason, are unable to find somewhere to plug your Volt in, the lack of engine battery charging will suck for you. I get that Li-Ion charging is a delicate matter, but this is looking like one of the Volt’s major design flaws. At $40k a pop, you should be able to charge your batteries using the range-extending engine.
And don’t underestimate the number of people who might buy the Volt but don’t have easy plug access at night. Eco-image-conscious urbanites often live in condos that do not offer private garages with plugs. These people are right out of the market for the Volt… leaving, um… uh…
Score another one for Vibrant ad irony… allow your cursor to linger over the term “E-Flex” above, and you will be treated to a video which says the Volt is “Now charging” with fine print below it clarifying that the Volt is “not currently for sale.” Tomato, tomahto.
I guess I don’t understand how the Volt works as much as I thought I did. What is the gas engine being used for? If you drive your 40 miles and for some reason can’t plug it in (i.e. you’re on a road trip), can you still drive using the power from the gas engine alone? If not, that really sucks, if so, what’s the issue?
As thetopdog says, what’s the point of the gas motor if it isn’t going to run?
What do people mean when they say they want the gas motor to recharge the battery?
The first thing we knew about the Volt is that it was electric drive. There is no mechanical connection between the gas motor and the drivetrain.
Without a direct mechanical link to the gas engine, the wheels are driven solely by electricity. After your 40 miles are gone, what are you going to do? The gas motor will supply electricity as it turns a generator, of course.
After 40 miles, which do you prefer:
*your Volt idling constantly at stop lights and unattended in the parking lot or driveway while the gas motor fully charges the batteries? This is obviously not the case.
*your Volt running the gas motor during a trip only enough to get you where you need to go so you can plug in at a parking spot to recharge via cheaper (hopefully cleaner) supply?
The only real question is how much the gas motor must run to keep the car going with a depleted battery. Maybe it is only 5 minutes in 30. Maybe it is continuously. I’ve never seen anybody provide solid information on this, the most important part of the fuel economy equation for this vehicle.
Either way, the car is going to be producing at least a little excess power. Terrain will vary. Speed will vary. Accessory usage and regenerative braking will vary. In current vehicles the motor varies RPM. In the Volt, there’s this big thing called a battery pack available to soak up the extra power. Maybe it’s only a couple percent of capacity, but it is still actual charging of the battery.
The gas engine cranks a generator that makes enough electricity to power the car’s electric drive motor but not enough to also recharge the battery. It in no way powers the car’s wheels. So you can keep going as long as you have gasoline, but you’re all done running on electric power alone, until you park the car, plug it in and recharge it.
It seems to me that charging the batteries from the ICE should be very easy to do – it might need some additional voltage regulation and software functions to control the charge rate. Has the charging function been left off because the vehicle doesn’t know if you are within close reach of inexpensive electricity vs. using expensive fuel? If this is the case, make it a user selectable option.
The engine does not charge the battery because that doesn’t even make sense!!! The point is to use all the juice in the battery then recharge it when you get home, not burn gas to do it.
pgmikes – what happens when you travel to a destination and can’t plug it in to recharge said battery? Doesn’t it make sense to allow the ICE to charge it in that case?
If you can’t recharge the battery with the ICE and you end up at a destination where you can’t plug in, then doesn’t it become a conventional gas burner since it has to use the ICE to power the drive train?
I’m a bit confused about how the gas engine can produce enough electricity to operate the electric motor on a continuous basis, with no battery acting as a buffer.
Stefan said:
“The gas engine cranks a generator that makes enough electricity to power the car’s electric drive motor but not enough to also recharge the battery.”
This doesn’t make sense. Under hard acceleration, a lot of electricity is needed. While cruising at, say, 40 MPH, very little electricity is needed. The engine should certainly be producing extra electricity while cruising. And while accelerating, a small gas engine used to generate electricity should yield less power at the wheels than the engine would if it directly drove the wheels–there are conversion losses. So storing some extra electricity in the battery while cruising should enable stronger acceleration.
In other words, when running on gas this thing could be painfully slow.
Orian – No I don’t believe it does. You just introduce more losses into the system. You drive the next day using the ICE.
I thought that the original plan for the Volt was for the gas engine and electric generator (called a genset) to be small, and the performance of the car would be reduced if the battery was fully drained and it had to run off the genset alone?
If so, you’d definitely want the genset to kick-in BEFORE the battery was fully drained to extend your range without a performance loss, and continue to recharge the battery up to some minimum level after reaching your destination, to prepare for the next journey.
The minimum battery charge levels should be adjustable by the driver, based on their driving habits, to minimize how often the genset is required. The genset should also turn off automatically if the vehicle is plugged into an electrical outlet.
Have the design specs of the car changed so it now has a genset large enough to propel the car when the batteries are fully discharged, with no performance loss?
Oh, there will be a performance loss once the battery is drained. The question is how much of one.
It sounds like they’ve decided that the extra expense of an engine that could recharge the battery would not be worthwhile–the car is intended for commutes, not trips.
Another variable: while the engine won’t recharge the battery, the braking system will. Maybe this is where they expect a boost to come from.
I’m a bit confused about how the gas engine can produce enough electricity to operate the electric motor on a continuous basis, with no battery acting as a buffer.
A design limitation of a series hybrid? In the Prius, the engine can power the motor-generators or the wheels, and the motor-generator can either power the wheels, or receive charge from regenerative braking, all by it’s very nature as a parallel hybrid. The disadvantage here is the gearset complexity.
A series hybrid, if the engine is too small or the controlling electronics not intelligently designed, might be able to power the engine or batteries but not both if the engine switches between charging the batteries or running the motor/generator or the electric motor is just that, a motor, and not a motor/generator (as in the Prius), rather than charging the batteries as an intermediary step. Again, because it’s a series hybrid, it could work this way; the Prius by it’s nature cannot.
I apologize for the above tortured sentence and logic.
Charging the batteries that then run the m/g–as opposed to driving the m/g directly from the engine–is a waste of power, so this does make some sense, in a perverse sort of way.
Here’s some random figures :
ICE efficiency 40%
Electric motor efficiency 80%
Battery charge efficiency 80%
So charging the battery then running on electric gives you a 0.8×0.8 efficiency = 64%
Running the ICE to power the electrics gives you 0.4×0.8 = 32%
Running the ICE to charge the batteries to run the electric motor gives you 0.4×0.8×0.8 = 25%.
So it never makes sense to run the ICE to charge the batteries. Of course this, like the guy says, makes the battery pack a heavy waste of space after they’ve run dry.
The key to the success of the Prius is that it does NOT need to be plugged in!
The key to the success of the Prius is that it does NOT need to be plugged in!
The key to the success of the Prius is that it does NOT need to be plugged in!
I cant say that enough!
At best “plug in” would be a very good option that those who can make use of can pay a little extra for.
The Prius has been a “home run” because it is a SELF-CONTAINED package that operates in the same manner as every other ICE powered car on the road today. You fill your Prius up at the local gas station just like ecveryone else, you just do so far less frequently! A Prius is definiately a viable option in NYC or any other urban area.
City driving is where a hybrid reallly shines. On the otherhand a Volt in NYC will simple be an under-powered car dragging around a worthless battery pack with nowhere to charge it.
I can count at least 6 prius owners living within less than a square mile of me. None of them have a living situation that would allow them to charge their batteries over-night (do you think the building owner/ management is going to pay for the electricity?) Also how long does take to get a full charge?
I guess GM believe we all live in a world of single family detacted homes with garages and available power outlets. They also believe we live like robots and simply commute to work and than come back home so we can recharge.
The joke is that with the Volt you will still need to visit the gas station AND if you actually use your car you will spend more time there than a Prius owner.
The Volt is a bunch of BS. Its concept is based on the silly notion of GM being able to show us a better EPA MPG rating than the Prius (on paper) and does not consider the REAL world.
Toyota put a great deal of thought in to the Prius concept and came up with a car that seemlessly intergrates electric and IRC power in a package that is simple and easy to use, yet works just a well as any IRC power car on the market.
The problem is people do NOT want to need to plug in their car at night and/ or they will forget. They might also need to run back out and will not have time for a full charge. Nor are they interested in tripping a curcuit breaker trying to charge the car and run the dishwasher and washing machine at the same time.
Prius= buy less gas!
Volt= buy less gas but increase your home electric bill or dont charge and buy more gas???
I’m with Mr. Karesh — the battery pack should always receive some charge from the MGset to handle peak torque requirements – but this is problematic in the serial hybrid setup, as the “wyeing” together of battery and generator would require a control system to be extremely intelligent, anticipatory and robust.
In other words, even more expensive.
I guess GM believe we all live in a world of single family detacted homes with garages and available power outlets.
Maybe they believe a significant portion of the market does. The 40 mile EV range was specified to meet the daily commuting requirements of a large portion of the market as well.
Volt= buy less gas but increase your home electric bill or dont charge and buy more gas???
*your home electric rate will increase less than what you would spend on gas for those 40 EV miles.
*don’t charge and buy more gas – just like the Prius.
The Volt is much more of a commuter design than the Prius. Nobody can dispute the battery becomes a (mostly) dead weight in the vehicle after the 40 EV miles. GM evidently believes there are a number of households like mine:
*my own power outlet access near the vehicle.
*a round trip commute to work within the EV range.
*a second car in the family more appropriate for hauling and/or road trips.
Worst case for the Volt is running errands or taking a long trip after running down the battery. At that point the mpg should still be 40 to 50 mpg. Even most families’ second vehicle will get less than 40 so there is still a savings.
Best, or most common case, is a commuter living 15 to 20 miles from work. Mr. Wheeler stops at the store on the way home occasionally. Most outings in the evening involve loading the brood into the Honda Odyssey. Assuming about 5 miles over the EV range per day still means Mr. Wheeler is burning about 1/2 gallon of gas over 5 working days.
No regenerative braking?
I do keep my mind open. I keep hearing “won’t pay for itself in fuel savings” pop up. True, but neither does a Prius,
That’s a lie – the Prius pays for itself, according to most studies, even when compared to the smaller Corolla, and obviously very quickly compared to the Camry, which is bigger but in the same class (midsize).
The cost of replacing the Lith-Ion battery pack is so high ($10,000 to $30,000) who will buy one to replace it?
So all the used Volt’s will be driving around without having to worry about charging their batteries because they’re broken!!!!!. The car should be pretty quick after ripping the batteries out to use as a boat anchor.
ICE efficiency 40%
Electric motor efficiency 80%
Battery charge efficiency 80%
I have always been told the ICE runs at a efficiency rate of 20%.
The new electric motors (Plate) run at a 95% efficiency. I can only pray GM pays to use the patents.
Bob Lutz, GM vice-chairman, makes the technological claim that the Volt will know how far the driver is from home and will only produce enough energy to charge the battery to get them home.
JoeEgo:
Maybe they believe a significant portion of the market does. The 40 mile EV range was specified to meet the daily commuting requirements of a large portion of the market as well.
A significant portion? What about the rest of us? GM can not win the necessary marktshare by making products that do not have a broad appeal. Remember the success of the Prius IS based on it’s broad appeal. The Prius is a REAL car, NOT a special purpose commuter vehicle.
<your home electric rate will increase less than what you would spend on gas for those 40 EV miles.
That is based on the assumption that your utility cost will NOT rise in the near future. IF plug-in hybrids become successful that is exactly what will happen.
em>don’t charge and buy more gas – just like the Prius.
My point is if you use the Volt in the same manner that people use Priuses (like a real car) you will end up using more gas than the Prius once you start dragging the depleted battery around.
The Volt is much more of a commuter design than the Prius.
Here in lies the problem! In many ways the Volt will be a step backwards into GM AV1 and Honda Insight territory IF the only real savings come from a short 40 mile electric battery range. Who wants to drive on a leash and pay a whopping $40,000 for the compromise of such?
GM evidently believes there are a number of households like mine:
*my own power outlet access near the vehicle.
*a round trip commute to work within the EV range.
*a second car in the family more appropriate for hauling and/or road trips.
You talk as if the Volt was a $15,000 econobox but in reality it is a $40,000 compromised vehicle. If your said family already has a REAL $25,000 to $30,0000 car (lets say a Accord or Malibu) do you honestly believe they will be willing to fork over $40,000 on a commuter car??????? I guess you think like GM and believe the main car is a $50,000 SUV! IF they can afford a $40,000 “second” car than I believe they are that proverbial GM customer that “does not care about the price of gas”!
GM needs to aim its products at individuals and NOT families. I know several Prius owners and most do NOT have children and or a second car.
The Volt would also be worthless to about 97% of the drivers that live in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and the Bronx (a market of over 5 millon) and there are quite a few Prius already there. This not to mention Chicago, Boston, LA, etc.
Anyway you look at it the Volt makes ZERO sense!
Outside of some heavy government subsidies a $40,000 car thats only redeeming quality will be good gas mileage is just dumb in a world full of $15,000 cars that also get good mileage. What is the point of spending an extra $25,000 to possible save maybe $4000 to $5000 over the life of the vehicle? One would think that GM has a Hybrid Malibu in the works that will get 50mpg, that would be a $40,000 car!
whatdoiknow1: How many vacations do you drive a year?!!!!! You do realize that 40/day equals 14,600/year, which is basicaly the national average or a bit over. I just don’t get the “driving on a leash and commuter car” stuff. I’ll give you that $40k is nuts just to save money on gas. But it’s still a car, and a good looking car.
I have always been told the ICE runs at a efficiency rate of 20%.
The figures were off the top of my head, but the ICE in the volt will be optimized for one speed only; it won’t have a torque curve, just a torque point, so can be a lot more efficient than the ICE in most regular vehicles.
I’m not trying to be an apologist. I just want to make sure we all see the pros and cons to a vehicle like the Volt. Price excepted, I believe the vehicle is very relevant for how it is designed to function.
whatdoiknow1:
What about the rest of us?
GM needs to aim its products at individuals and NOT families. I know several Prius owners and most do NOT have children and or a second car.
The Volt would also be worthless to about 97% of the drivers that live in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and the Bronx (a market of over 5 millon) and there are quite a few Prius already there. This not to mention Chicago, Boston, LA, etc.
Buy a Prius. Or buy a Civic or a Yaris or an Accent or whatever. The market will decide if the Volt is a useful solution. I’m sure GM has spent plenty of money on market research. Also, there is a whole lot more to the U.S. than the NY area. The U.S. average of 478 cars per 1000 people doesn’t come just from NY. Driving habits in Los Angeles are significantly different than Manhattan and I can easily see the Volt fitting in on the west coast.
It almost sounds like the Volt has let you down somehow, even though it is not yet released. It probably is not the car for you. Fine.
I believe arguments on the market viability of the Volt need to be separated from the $40,000 price tag. Once a customer can determine the viability of the Volt as a solution to their transportation needs then they can analyze the costs in that context. This will be a fundamental shift in the selection of a vehicle.
My hypothetical Mr. Wheeler with a 2nd vehicle (minivan) and 1/2 gallon of gas usage per week in his Volt is saving about $800 per year over the Prius in gasoline. What are his off-peak overnight electricity rates? What are the yearly maintenance costs on Volt vs Prius? What are the battery costs on Volt vs Prius?
Those are the questions that need to be answered. Only then can we come around to an acceptable dealer price estimate for the Volt. $40,000 is certainly too high. But what happens if GM survives and manages to bring the price down to $30,000 per car? $35k? $25k?
Let me say, I am not a volt fan, devotee, afficionado or maven, but you guys who are criticizing the plug-in requirement and stating categorically that it will be an huge and permanent impediment to sales assume a static enviromnent, which is the same trap that those who originally dissed the Prius fell into….
Anyone want to dispute the possibility that secure exterior plug-in points are developed and marketed in places like apartments and condo complexes, and office buildings to lure a captive audience of Volt early adapters? Can’t imagine that would be too terribly costly….
GM can not win the necessary marktshare by making products that do not have a broad appeal.
GM is making ten thousand cars the first year.
They don’t need a car that works for 95% of the country. They’ll still sell out even if only 25% of Americans can use it.
A pick-up would be stupid for me. Does that mean that pick-ups are stupid to make? Of course not, because there are lots of different types of car buyers.
There are still electric charging stations for the EV1 all over the place here in California. I can’t imagine the feel good greens running the state won’t just convert those to whatever the volt needs
I am average. Married, two kids, nice suburbian house with garage. Six figure income, but barely, in a state with 40K average income. Almost 40 years old (geez, that’s scary). The most I’ve ever spent on a car: $25K. The most I will probably EVER spend on a car: $30K. The Volt just will not be an option, but since we have been mostly Honda owners the new Insight will probably find a place in our garage even if the Volt is the most wonderful thing ever. I am just not going to spend that much on a car, especially from GM.
Here’s the important part… even if I were to hit the lottery, there is only one Chevrolet vehicle I would pay over $30K for, and that one does not even have a bowtie on it, just it’s model name. I bet you can figure it out. It sure as hell won’t be a Volt.
When the kids are out of college I may splurge and buy a $40k sedan. But it will have a Roundel, not a Bowtie.
JoeEgo, on the demographics of the prospective Volt buyer:
*my own power outlet access near the vehicle.
*a round trip commute to work within the EV range.
*a second car in the family more appropriate for hauling and/or road trips.
Makes sense. But you’ve also just described an EV prospect.
The Volt has dead weight at both ends. Under battery power (in the first N miles), that heavy engine and all its parts are perfectly useless drags on the range. After you exhaust the battery, that heavy battery (sucking space out of your trunk) is a drag on the fuel economy.
Drop the ICE. Put some extra battery in. The elimination of the ICE in favor of more conformable battery makes it possible to build a sleeker, more effective BEV with more range. You’re not pulling the battery around. I expect a Volt, with the current pack, sans engine and associated dead weight, would get about 60 miles. Even more might be possible if the vehicle was redesigned.
And the vehicle would be less expensive and, most likely, easier to build. Simpler. Simpler software.
95% of our trips are well under 60 miles. We could easily use a vehicle like that for most trips and, for the days we need more range… we have, as JoeEgo said, a second car.
In fact, pretty much everyone in the neighborhood fits the profile.
it is from last year so the info could have changed
Short version:
The Volt will drive electric until the battery is at 30%, then the ice will kick in to power the car. The ice will “throttled” to produce the average power requirement at that time but what is left over will be used for recharging the battery and when the batteries are recharged enough the ice will be stopped for some time
I realize I am not the average American. I have a 16 mile round trip commute to work. The volts limitations are not a factor for me. I live in the south eastern U.S. and after a weekend of waiting in line for fuel for my next weeks commute, I welcome the Volt even if it is not perfect. I support Chevy even when they miss the boat slightly because they support this country!