The minivan market’s always interesting to those of us on the front lines; the genre reflects the paradox of the most conservative and loyal car buyers. Many of these folks will shop for ‘brand name’ regardless of whether the model in question really deserves a price premium given it’s history. For example, the average 2007 Grand Caravan (SXTmodel with 22k miles) is going for $10,200 average, wholesale, book. That’s a steal compared to the Sienna LE ($14,650) and the Odyssey LX ($14,850), which have generally trailed their name brand stablemates in the quality category. Speaking of history, a 2007 Saturn Relay is around $9400, while the Ford Freestar SE is going for $9550. As October’s historically the worst month for used cars (no ‘sale’ holidays, no tax refunds, fear-inducing elections), this may be the right time to pull the trigger on a near-new minivan at 40 cents to the depreciating dollar.
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Thanks, Steven, for the new report! And I appreciate the insight on the used minivan market. (Confession: one of my vehicles is a Windstar.)
If one can buy an ’07 Freestar or Caravan for ten grand or so, it sounds to me like a good value. They’re comfy turnpike cruisers. But my Windstar is running fine, and the trade-in allowance on it probably wouldn’t buy a box of cigars…
So I think the next car for my menagerie will be a mid-90’s Mustang. Depreciation on those appears to have bottomed out.
+1 on the minivans. I commented in the VW minivan article on what a great buy these vehicles are, used. Definitely not new.
Let’s see what we have. Soccer mom stigma + Too many built = Epic depreciation. For a fan of the minivan like me, it’s great to buy a lightly used one for peanuts.
Also, I like the new Chrysler minivan interiors. The interior plastics are definitely not soft, but then again they remind me of the rugged plastics inside a working man’s cargo van. And I use my minivans like small cargo vans. They do duty for for everything from hauling kids to towing race cars to hauling more wood flooring than any Chrysler engineer ever dreamed possible. That tougher interior works for me, better than the soft touch stuff in an Odyssey.
A note to the moms – you ARE a mom. Stop trying to hide the kids in that tinted glass of your CUV.
highrpm
From hooker-like clothes for the 30-50 crowd, to both parents working full time to make ends meet, the modern era is ALL about hiding traditional elements of the “mom” role in every possible way.
/minivan fan
//applauds moms who act like moms
” … the modern era is ALL about hiding traditional elements of the “mom” role in every possible way”
How true. How exactly did being a great mother or a great father become a bad thing? Keith Brasher’s book High and Mighty gets into the psychology of this pretty well.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=qzZgw4XceDsC&dq=high+and+mighty&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=dqO37_o0Ie&sig=RmGR_LvAQl9tf1lI2QdA01OldMI&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1
Minivan fan here. I got my a$$ chewed for claiming the virtues of the minivan by a pack of wild Mazda 5 diciples in a past thread, but for my money nothing is better at hauling 4+ adults with enough utility to negate the need for a rarely used pick-em-up truck.
I’ve already lived through a decade of cramming myself in the back seats of 4 Runners, Explorers and Blazers. Even the occasional Expedition or Tahoe don’t hold a match to the comfort of riding in the backseat of a modern Minivan. Nor do most SUV’s come even close to the cargo capacity of a minivan, not to mention the MPG’s.
Only thing keeping me from buying one right now is knowing that once I do have a minivan I’ll be the guy driving to everything.
Steven,
I just bought a used Grand Caravan last month — you make me feel like such a trend-setter.
For me the math was simple — I figured $4K for a Dodge vs. $8K for an Odyssey/Sienna was a good deal. I’ll spend more on repairs, but so what, I am saving $300 a year on interest expense alone.
Yeah! Hope the Honda and Toy depreciate well before I need another.
Bunter
whoa..too bad this isn’t happening in Canada.
14,850 for an Odyssey would get you a 2004 – and that’s Blackbook value.
I was very fond of my late Mother’s ’97 Dodge Caravan, although I preferred my late Dad’s ’95 Volvo 940 wagon. (Both had ample character.) Minivans are fine with me. I’m almost sorry I’m not in the market. But I wish VW had made that concept microbus (the original minivan). That would have done a lot to beautify the roads.
In TrueDelta’s survey, the 2002-2007 Chryslers have average repair rates, maybe even a bit better than average. The 2000 and 2001 are ugly, though. Maybe their quality improved around the 2002, or maybe they start falling apart around 85k.
http://www.truedelta.com
My last minivan was a ’92 Voyager with a 4-cylinder and a 5-speed stick.
Got around 24mpg in town and close to 30 on the highway. Seemed pretty reasonable to me for a good hauler.
Modern minivans aren’t so mini, and you’d be lucky to see 24 on the highway.
Ugh.
Depreciating dollar? First I heard of it. The Euro has been falling like a lead brick since July. Its already down to $1.37 from $1.60
The credit crunch combined with the oncoming EU recession is creating a huge dollar shortage.
I made the mistake of choosing a Freestar twice in the last few years as a company car. It was a horrible car the first time and even worse when I gave it a second chance.
Please don’t be suckered into thinking it’s a good deal. I can’t speak to the other brands but it wasn’t anywhere near being in the same class as my wife’s older Odyssey.
If you can buy an ’07 for 50%, why buy an ’09 for double? These aren’t exactly expensive cars to fix- you could even get an extended warranty for probably a $1k. What does this do for the price of a new van?
50merc:
I agree. Although I help folks get new cars, I much prefer trying to get them into a used vehicle because the value proposition is so much better. One of my favorite personal sayings has been, “Your footwear will have a greater effect on your life than the car you drive.” and often times those who buy minivans are the antithesis of an image driven consumer.
highrpm:
You’re dead on. Minivans from 2005 thru 2007 were grossly overproduced thanks in large part to their needed roles in rental fleets. These vehicles don’t tend to be heavily stressed, and the value proposition is further increased by the plethora of slow selling and discontinued models.
ash78:
I see some people who avoid the mom/dad image. But I know a lot more folks who embrace it and consider it part of their persona. Heck, ten years ago I was considered arrogant and independent in a way that probably typified the Gen X stereotype. Now I’m just a middle aged schmoe with a wife and two kids.
John Horner:
Again I don’t see it. When I go to soccer games (my kids favorite sport) both parents are usually there. Perhaps some prefer to have the escapism and myth of independence, but I also think that many more folks embrace the mom/dad role. Even to the point where Dad drives the fuel miser and Mom gets the wagon or minivan.
200k-min:
Your name says it all. The minivan is the best combination of value, space, comfort, utility, and longevity for most folks looking for a family vehicle that can comfortably seat at least five average to larger people. But I do think that mini-minivans, which is what a Rondo and 5 in essence are, may become the preferred mode if gas prices creep up.
SherbornSean:
Your the king of swing and the purveyor of all things cool. Just like me. Now help me with this artificial preggy jacket so I can empathize with my wife.
Bunter:
The Honda and Toyota minivans are grossly overpriced. I happen to like the Sienna more than any other van out there. But the nearly 5k premium isn’t remotely justified given that virtually everything else out there provides the best qualities of a minivan along with durability that should hit past the 200k mark. Anybody who gets one these days should just drive it into the ground and then get an electric once, hopefully, the technology becomes more easily developed.
Kurt B:
I’m amazed how long Canadians keep their cars… until I hear about the prices. If you ever make it to Atlanta I’ll give you a rental gratis.
David Holzman:
My wife has been driving a 1994 Volvo 940 wagon that I bought a few months back for only $600. She actually prefers it over the Mercedes S500 that I use to attract customers at a lot I just opened near my home. The 940 was one of the most brilliantly designed cars in the modern era. But that’s a topic for another thread.
M Karesh:
All older minivans had transmission problems right thru 2003. All of them. I happen to think the best long-term value in the marketplace is a 2004 – 2007 Caravan with rear air, cruise, but no other major options. If you replace the 2nd bench row with captain’s chairs, you end up with the best of all worlds. A less stressed transmission (change the fluid every 30k folks, forget the manufacturer’s ‘lifetime’ perspective), better fuel economy, and the 3.3L that is the best engine Chrysler ever made. This combination will easily last over 200k with proper maintenance and will handle most folks needs.
eggsalad:
Great combination and great point. What you have in the 92 model has been partially fulfilled with the Scion Xb. However the parts and repair costs for that vehicle will be far higher than your 92. The 91 – 95 Chrysler minivans and the succeeding NS generation were the most dominant models of modern times.
AG:
If we’re going to play the game of subjective cutoffs, then what about the dollar going from 86 cents to the Euro, to $1.37 today. That represents a depreciating currency and the 700 billion bailout will not help our 11 trillion deficit one lick.
pls:
I’ve owned three Freestar/Monterey models without any issues. But I do have to say that with used cars, it’s not so much the model that matters as it is the prior owner. I think you may have inherited someone elses lemonade. Perhaps not.
Rix:
You can take an 07 and modify the interior to a ridiculous degree before it becomes even remotely as expensive to own as an 09′. The price and value proposition for minivans these days is highly suspect. Which is why the Rondo, 5, and most notably the Journey have gained traction despite their obvious compromises.
Excellent piece and lots to ponder in the comments but who wins on safety?
If I am buying the vehicle my kids are going to ride around in for the next ten years I’ll pay $5000 extra for a star or a G rating.
S Lang:
You confuse me…
You say, “All older minivans had transmission problems right thru 2003.”
Then you say that my former 4-cyl, 5-speed van was a “great combination”.
So why do you think I purposely bought a stick van? Did you mean to say “All older *automatic* minivans had transmission problems…”?
Yes
Hal, if that’s your criteria then a Freestar or Sedona would work.
Steve: The 3.3 engine may be bulletproof, but in a rental Dodge Caravan, I only managed 20MPG highway, averaging 72MPH, and that was with myself and a light load of cargo. From what I hear, the larger (3.8?) motor is actually more fuel efficient (possibly because the 3.3 is a bit undersized for the job?)
That’s a steal compared to the Sienna LE ($14,650) and the Odyssey LX ($14,850), which have generally trailed their name brand stablemates in the quality category.
Don’t know which point you are making here? Honda and Toyota have been tops in reliability compared to Chrysler vans. There is no comparison IMO between the domestics and the imports. The imports control the minivan market.
If you are going to buy a lightly used domestic minivan, the key is to find one wihout a lot of options. A base 3.3L Chrysler minivan without the power sliding doors, power liftgate, rear A/C, air suspension, etc is the best bargain out there. There just isn’t much to break on that beast. All of the 2001+ Chrysler minivans have trans oil coolers standard now, so their trannies are actually reliable now.
BTW the Odyssey has had its share of transmission problems. You will also find that a 2-3 year old Odyssey is not much cheaper than a new Odyssey. When I was shopping, I found that I could buy TWO lightly used base-model Chrysler minivans for the price of one lightly used Odyssey. Although if I was buying a new minivan, the Odyssey makes sense.
Am looking at eventually replacing the Liberty. Now, I harbor a passion for buying a used Wrangler, but given my role in Scouting (I keep a tent and sleeping bag in the vehicle at all times!), which every month means hauling kids and gear, a gently used minivan doesn’t look like that bad of an idea. Like the comments above, maybe it’s time to get back to embracing who we all actually ARE and not who we think we need to look like! Sure, a minivan may not be sexy, but I remember the Montana we owned years ago…it could haul our (since sold) pop-up camper, and had the captains’s chairs in the middle. On long trips, it was crazy comfortable and held all that I could stuff in it. More times than I can count on, I was asked if I would let it be borrowed to haul other kids and gear…
A 3.3L V6 Caravan from the 2001 – 2007 era is actually rated for 25 highway. Tyically my family would get around 21 to 22 mg in combined driving.
Honda and Toyota have both experienced reliability issues. The Odysseys have historically had very weak transmissions, the Sienna has been improved since the prior generation but still trails in the interior’s durability and has various minor issues.
Truth be known, any of the minivans should easily last over 200k and 12+ years these days. Despite all the myth inducing fears in the marketplace, the domestics are by far the best near-new values in this segment.
I stand by what I’ve stated.
I’ve read the Odyssey has problems with tranny near the 100K miles mark. Problems that need a rebuild.
I’ve also read that Toyota engines develop sludge inside.
So, in the end… they’re not as holy as they would want you to believe.
Refreshing to read that the domestic team kicks butts in this segment… yet.
Had a 1998 Olds Silouette ran great till 400,000km then the tranny went.
They don’t make minivans GM or Ford and that is the only 2 types I will buy Dodge is a mussle car brand so I bought a 2004 Ford Freestar with 100’001km for $11,000 Canadian and when this one is toast I will buy a old 2007 being the last year of the minivans. Oh ya Ford recomends changing the tranny filter and fluid every 50,000km