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While we await Andrew Dederer’s (or similar) translation, we are assured that Nissan has released this higher quality official version of their record-setting Nurburgring run to refute Porsche’s claims that their Japanese rivals were cheating. GTRblog.com says that “Nissan go on to say that the GT-R used in the official laptime was actually at a disadvantage due to up to 50 kilograms of testing equipment along for the ride. Offering Porsche some driver training lessons if they want to give it another try.”
29 Comments on “Nissan to Porsche on GT-R Ring Run: Don’t be Dissin’ the Dai-San!...”
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Something tells me that Porsche will be eating it’s words very soon…
Warning: Running a record setting Nurburgring lap in your Nissan GT-R will void the warranty.
Note the earlier post about the $20,000 GT-R transmission repair under warranty denied because the owner supposedly abused the car by driving it to the limit. Porsche can be a prick, but I doubt they do that.
Wasn’t Walter Rohrl the driver on Porsche’s record attempts? Nissan thinks he needs lessons around the ‘Ring?
That said, Porsche needs to stop being such a bunch of babies. Yes guys, it is possible that a Japanese company builds a car that is ultimately faster than yours for less money.
That looked a little hairy around the 5:15 mark; perhaps the Nissan driver was just willing to give that extra oomph, knowing that if he tanked it his bosses would just give him another one to try again.
Look, Porsche has been doing this stuff for nearly 60 years. Not always the fastest, never the slowest, but always super-reliably. All of a sudden here comes a Japanese company that does a banzai charge once or twice–but don’t use the launch control any more than that or we’ll void your warranty–and they’re Godzilla.
I put a thousand miles on a GT-R several months ago. It’s a fabulous car, but it ain’t no Porsche. Call me back when Nissan wins Le Mans as many times as Porsche has.
I dig Porsche, I truly do. But it’s about time people started to question their profit margin (ie – the ability to spend $30,000 on options). It’s also about time people start to question their rear engine alpha-dog philosophy. In other words, their unwillingness to put real HP in the superior design (ie – Boxster/Cayman). Put a 450 HP GT3 type engine/tranny + wide sticky tires + limited slip + a little extra bracing/rigitity + top-of-the-line brakes in a Cayman. THAT’S THE TICKET to the next level. But Porsche is afraid to offend the 911 faithfull (roll-eyes). So I’m GLAD Nissan is challenging the old stubborn Porsche.
I still doubt it. First of all, that video proves nothing. Nobody can tell if it really was a stock GT-R. Secondly, the numbers (hp, weight) just don’t add up and thirdly, I really don’t think that the best Porsche drivers are 30 seconds slower than this guy, even if they don’t know the car inside out. 30 seconds is a lot! And if you look at the numbers, the time Porsche got just seems so much more credible compared to other cars.
Nissan has after all been caught cheating before…
I agree with ‘tom’. 30 seconds on the Ring is a LOT of time.
Nobody can tell if it really was a stock GT-R.
So sort of proof do you need? I will concede that point as no one has continuous video following of the GT-R in question from production in Japan to Germany.
Secondly, the numbers (hp, weight) just don’t add up and thirdly
I guess you haven’t heard, even though its been common knowledge for some time, that Nissan has underrated the GT-R power and torque numbers. C/D and M/T have confirmed through dyno testing that production GT-Rs are making well over 500bhp.
…thirdly, I really don’t think that the best Porsche drivers are 30 seconds slower than this guy, even if they don’t know the car inside out. 30 seconds is a lot!
Developing the car for 8 years, 3 of which was spent on the Nordschleife is a long time, too. How much time has Porsche spent with the car? I wouldn’t be surprised if I were able to get a better time in my Sonata than if someone threw me the keys to a Z, as I don’t own one. I don’t know where the limits are in the another car as well as mine.
Also, and you already probably know this, the ‘Ring is a very long course. Mistakes add up. Any one who has played Gran Turismo at least can tell you this.
And if you look at the numbers, the time Porsche got just seems so much more credible compared to other cars.
And the times that other vetted auto journals have gotten are not? In almost every single publication the GT-R has bested the 997 in a number of differing situations. All of a sudden Porsche claims it can’t do the same (in a car from a rival company mind you). GASP! Then it must be true!
This whole business has lowered my opinion of Porsche. They’ve become the automobile manufacturer’s equivalent of an internet troll. One of the rules in business is you don’t this sort of thing. It makes you look stupid.
Nissan has after all been caught cheating before…
I’m not trying to be rude or anything, but can you cite any examples? I’m just curious.
I think the real question is the why. Why did Porsche do this? I have a theory. The GT-R does as well or better than the 997 for tens of thousands less, even with the mark-ups, and the current economic climate may make it real hard to justify a $175k+ purchase.
Porsche = Sour. Grapes.
PS:
@Stephan Wilkinson:
The first time the car was dubbed Godzilla was by Australian magazine in 1989 with the R32 Skyline GT-R. Its not a new phenomenon. Imagine driving something akin to an Evo IX…back in 1989. Compared to the crop of automobiles from that era (The E30 M3, 1986-1992, was making 195hp to the GT-Rs purported 276, again, underrated more like 330) I’d imagine the name given might be justified.
Offering Porsche some driver training lessons if they want to give it another try.
Did Nissan just say that? Well, this YouTube vid pretty much has my reaction in a nutshell.
@John R
Come on. Look at the Ring times. The Porsche Carrera GT with Walter Röhrl behind the wheel managed to be only 1 second faster than this GT-R, while being 320 kg lighter and having more than 130 additional bhp…and you do know that Porsche is also very conservative regarding hp numbers, don’t you?
Tell me how you can take that GT-R lap time seriously…
Why doesn’t Nissan offer to let Porsche purchase any GT-R off the lot, then get a Nissan driver to take it around the ‘ring? I think that would put an end to the rumors once and for all
@tom:
Tell me how you can take that GT-R lap time seriously…
The ZR-1 weighs 300lbs more the the Porsche you mention while making only 26 more horsepower yet manages 7:26.
What’s your point?
@John R:
That’s still a lot more reasonable than the GT-R time…
Or compare it to the 911 GT2 which managed to go round the Ring 5 seconds slower than the GT-R, yet the GT2 has 40 more horse power and weighs 625 lbs less.
Again, the numbers just don’t add up.
The fact that Porsche would take a competitor’s car that has been independently tested by many different sources with an outcome that bests Porsche’s own product, stick its own test driver in it, perform some test without any independent verification, and than have the nerve to say our car is faster is just plain petty and unprofessional!
It also says a great deal about who Prosche believes its customers and fans are. It’s funny to see Porsche fans/ owners here getting all bent out of shape over the fact that a so-called lowly Nissan could out perform the “greatest car(s) in the world”. Get over yourselves already! We live in the age of computer aided design, there is no magic here! Just because you happened to have paid more for your car does NOT mean that you are actually getting more. Be happy, because you are now part of the world of “elite motoring”.
The problem is while you guys have been worshiping at the fountian of Porsche, Porsche hasn’t been doing much of anything lately but rake in massive profits. The silly, worthless, steering wheel mounted shift bottons of the PDK are a case in point. They suck, but Porsche (the most porfitable car company in the world) was too cheap to redesign the steering column for a proper set of paddles, but you are welcome to spend a good $500+ for leather on the steering column. Kinda sound like a company that values vanity over performance nowadays!
Dont get me wrong, Porsches are still great cars but they are no longer superior to the very limited competition today in the way they used to be superior to the much wider competition that existed 20 years ago.
Regardless of their respective ‘Ring times, I still know which one I would rather have in the garage….
@tom:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=iWAficaFl3c
Funny you should mention the GT2. The above is a video by Autocar that tests the GT-R against it on a short course in Ole Blighty. The GT-R was nearly a second faster. The car is fast. Period.
And again with the horsepower. The GT-R is making more than 480hp.
Ok, if you do not believe the numbers that the GT-R has put up at the Ring why just call BS on Nissan and not call BS on every other source that has done a comparison between a 911 Turbo and the GT-R?
Why not deal with the fact that the GT-R has a faster shifting dual-clutch manumatic transmission with a extra gear in it. Why not accept the fact that the GT-R has much better balance than the “ass heavy” 911. Maybe we should also consider that the GT-R has a much more sophisticated drivetrain that just might be more efficient at putting the power to the pavement. When done considering these matters than we can have a look at the aerodynamics and downforce of the GT-R which IIAC are optimized for a road course and not top speed. Maybe the fact that the GT-R is the only front engined, AWD car with a rear mounted transaxle has something to do with it!
Like it or not the GT-R is a more focused car than the 911 turbo. The GT-R began life as a GT-R, designed from the ground up to be a AWD, turbocharged track supercar. The 911 Turbo on the otherhand starts as a NA RWD car, than adds AWD, than adds twin turbos, bigger wheels, etc.
Put down the spec sheets, they do not mean much in the real world. A HP rating is just that! Curb weights does matter but it also make a difference as to where on the car the curb weight is. A less powerful car with better balance will return a better lap time simply because it can make better use of the power at hand. Power does not matter much if it only get burned up in tire smoke.
Notice that no one seems to care about the top speed of the GT-R. That is because this car is all about changing directions quickly!
@John R:
Which makes it look as if there are two versions of the GT-R. One Production version and another one for tests that go to car mags etc.
Or Porsche just got unlucky and purchased a sub par version of the GT-R…
[throws hands in the air]….
Never, ever pay dealer mark up. Any price over list is just stupid.
Given that bit of truth, the Porsche is faster because it will be months before the GT-R can be purchased.
Porsche, there is still no substitute.
I was waiting for that ;)
John R: The GT-R (3,858) is a veritable porker compared to the ZR1 (3,324). 500 lbs! That’s like two good ol’ boys riding in the back with you going around the Ring. Better have a damn well sorted suspension to make up for that mass. And it does.
The GT-R is helped by AWD for it’s 0-60 times. That and, oh, I don’t know, maybe something like 560 HP instead of the 480 advertised. Either way, it is a very capable track car, as a number of rags have shown.
The recent online exploits about the launch control paint this beast as having a fragile tranny – one that isn’t maybe covered by good ol’ Nissan. Not good press. I hope they choke on it personally. Maybe they’re sick of paying for other warranty claims from that damn Canton plant (JIT learnin’ from earlier that I had to use.)
Oh dear Lord in heaven, who cares?
Even Lamborghini and Ferrai aren’t this petty, and you can’t sit at a stoplight in either marque without some wanker rolling down his window and asking for the car’s top speed or 0-60. Other than looks Lambos and Ferraris are all about ‘the numbers’ and yet neither questions the other about their stats.
And what kind of douche do you have to be to base a car purchase on what some mystery driver could perform on a track you’ll never visit?
This is all a moot point anyway since the NSX replacement will destroy both of them. LOL :)
At least the GTR will still seem fast on your Playstation (and the tranny won’t shatter either).
And what kind of douche do you have to be to base a car purchase on what some mystery driver could perform on a track you’ll never visit?
BRILLIANT! It’s all about the experience, not a couple of seconds here or there (on a street car). As you mature as a driver, you begin to understand this viewpoint.
Note: The dynos don’t say nuthin.’
I’m a tuner-in-training with Unichip, and I’m familiar with nearly all the dynos involved in the GT-R power scandal. The Japanese runs with the Dynapack were hilarious. They read 475 bhp and people claim that it’s whp, simply because they don’t understand what torque correction factor means. The Dastek ones in the UK, where they claim it’s 500+ because it’s 440 or so on the Dastek… Laughable to me, because I work on a Dastek sometimes, so I know the proper conversion works out to more like 480… (I have dozens of pulls on the Dastek) the Dynojet ones which agree with the Dastek and have the same conversion rate…
Face it… different dynos read differently. Any tuner or engine builder worth his salt knows that absolute numbers don’t really count for anything unless they’re in comparison to another car on the same dyno.
The most telling dyno is the one Edmund’s did. They took a GT-R and put it on the same dyno as a 911 Turbo (rated at 480). Guess what? near identical numbers. Has anybody else tried this? No. Does anybody else cite this as proof that the GT-R only makes about 473 hp? (though given Nissan’s claimed 10% power loss through the transmission, that means it actually only makes 460)… No. Do any of the internet publications know the difference between a brake dyno and an inertial dyno, or what SAE corrections and Manifold Absolute Pressure sensors mean when used in the same sentence? Apparently, only Edmund’s does. Car and Driver is addicted to SAE. Which is why they always get faster 0-60 times than anyone else.
Also note: if the GT-R made more than 500 hp, don’t you think Porsche, with its own testing equipment, would have said that the reason it was fast around the ring was because of some hidden power boost?
We live in an age of electronic enhancements. Does everyone want to see a perfect example? All you have to do is look to Ferrari. The F430 Scuderia ran the same time around Fiorano as the Enzo. Same factory driver on the same track. They weight within 30lbs of each other but the Enzo has an additional 150hp.
The GT-R has great power delivery, a slick tranny and physics defying maneuverability. Before you go jumping to conclusions about being Nissan bias, I own a 6-speed black ’07 Porsche Turbo. Being in Phoenix, I have the advantage of being so close to EVOMS that’s helped add “a couple” extra HP to the car; so to all GT-R’s…bring it ;).
I’ve driven a few different GT-R’s and it’s a fantastic machine…amazingly fast, great handling and incredible brakes. I think for Porsche to test a GT-R themselves to prove Nissan’s wrong is a little petty. Honestly, now I’m sure there are some, but how many potential buyers are out there going “should I buy that GT-R or this GT2(or even a Turbo)”? You’re talking about a two completely different buyer pools. Most Porsche buyers are passionate about Porsche and wouldn’t consider any other.
And one last thought…it’s all about the driving experience not about the numbers. Not to mentioned what percentage of GT-R or 997 owners are going to be on the Nurburg anyway? Let it go…
Ok September 2008 issue of road and track. They did a huge test of a bunch of cars on four different cources: an auto cross, a road course, the willow springs race track, and the oval. On each course they had a driver that was a specialist at that course test all the cars. For the auto cross the driver was Gary Thomason, for the road course Steve Millen was the driver, for willow springs Steve Millen was the driver, and for the oval the driver was Roger Yasukawa. Each car got one warm up, two hot, and one cool down lap. And the driver jumped immediately from one car to another to make it as fair as possible. Here are the results: at the auto cross the GT2 finished in 40.61 seconds the GT-R in 40.63 seconds. On the road course the GT-R finished in 68.90 seconds the GT2 finished in 69.77 seconds. At willow springs the GT-R finished in 91.23 seconds and the GT2 finished in 93.57 seconds. At the oval the GT2 finished in 50.94 seconds and the GT-R finished in 51.85. These tests were fair and prove that the GT-R can hold its own and beat the GT2 when it is in its element. The GT-R lacks the top speed of the GT2 but it makes up for it in the corners. A GT-R can beat a GT2. I believe the times.