Yesterday, I had a long conversation with Chris Isidore, CNNMoney scribe. Somewhere in the middle of our rhetorical hockey match, Chris threw down the gloves. “There are a lot of people who hate Detroit,” he said. “They want to see it crash and burn.” I was flabbergasted. As I’ve mentioned here previously, I reckon that the percentage of people who “hate” Motown is relatively small, limited to eco-warriors and people who were treated like shit by D2.8 dealers. It certainly doesn’t apply to me. I hate hypocrisy and bureaucracy bungling. But I have always wanted to see healthy, vital and yes, America-owned automobile manufacturers. Painting the anti-bailout brigade as a bunch of “Detroit haters” is unfair and inflammatory. (Isidore’s own CNNMoney has a particularly egregious example on display this morning.) As TTAC’s Best and Brightest have said time and time again, you can be anti-bailout AND pro-Detroit. I call on my journalist colleagues to consider ALL the possibilities in their coverage. After all, it’s their audience’s money. OK, back to work…
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True D3 haters are out there, but those in violent support of the D3 (those that bleed GM/Ford blue and Chrylser pentastars) shut down the debate of issues when the “you want to see them fail” accusation comes out.
It’s more expeditious to accuse someone of hate than to debate tangible issues, esp. when facts are not in support of what they support.
The irony of course is that if the D3 lovers really did care as much as they say, they too would be saying the emperor is clothing challenged.
It’s just part of the continuing pattern of Detroit’s leadership and their enablers to avoid taking personal responsibility for righting the ship.
In their view, it always someone else’s fault. Honestly, it’s one of the most childish patterns of behavior that I have ever seen. They’re like addicts who surround themselves with supporters, rationalizing every failure, and refusing to admit that maybe, just maybe, that the problem lies within.
I agree – there is a lot of self-loathing among Americans today. It carries over to irrational dislike of Ameriacan automakers.
We will soon be a country with no self-owned industrial base. It will be the reversal of the 19th century – Asians and others will own the plantations, railroads, etc., and we will be just the low paid workers, or the indentured servants due to being so deeply in debt to them.
Combine that with the fact Detroit just flat out cannot compete with their legacy costs, and the UAW, and we will be down to building airplanes, and that is about it.
I agree with the post and the preceding comments. An additional thought is that these are extremely complex issues so the answers are not likely to be “black” or “white” but rather “a million shades of gray”. I personally don’t see the point in giving the same failed leaders $25-$50B of taxpayer money to continue on the same path. How does this make me un-American or un-Patriotic or un-sympathetic to the many people who will be impacted?
Robert,
Here is the source of statistical discrepancy: “I reckon that the percentage of people who “hate” Motown is relatively small, limited to eco-warriors and people who were treated like shit by D2.8 dealers.” Please indicate anyone who harbors love to D2.8 dealers (after having encounter or purchase)? Whom those dealers do not treat like shit? Those are same “Ganefs” who has Toyota/Honda dealerships but the attitude and rip off at D2.8 are much worse then at Asians/Europeans. Not that I am in love with Honda or Toyota sales people and especially service assholes, but I have to note that D2.8 take the cake.
I would support a bailout if I saw a cogent plan for turning the company around, including specific actions, a real, final tab for all of it, and the means by which the money would be paid back.
I don’t support the current bailout simply because I have failed to see any of these 3, let alone all 3.
There are a lot of D2.8 haters out there. I’ve called for the D2.8 to change but they will not. Business as usual and large salaries are their only focus. In today’s day and age this will no longer do. UAW is unneeded now with worker protection laws, etc. $14m a year CEO pay – is totally out of scope when the pay for the other MFGRs (outside of Detroit) is substantially less).
The comment that all those who want D2.8 to die is about as analogous as saying those who did not vote for Obama must have been racist. That is a very slippery slope and a poor argument tactic (very political in fact) for those who have trouble making their point in the first place.
I don’t hate the D3, car companies in general, factory rats in general or specific, Detroit, or Michigan for that matter.
But I’m glad I don’t live there. Too expensive and too liberal for me. Michigan was in an economic rescession long before the US entered one; and I think this was due to the politicians that they elected and the legislation that they created and passed.
I’ve never owned a foreign branded car. The reasons are immaterial. But I will be damned if I ever buy another Detroit 3 product if this bail out goes through.
If the Feds are going to co opt my choice by forcing me to “invest” in the Big 2.8, then my supposed duty to “buying American, saving the American worker, protecting the American Dream and keeping jobs in the US, brand loyalty, automotive heritage, patriotism etc.” is over. I gave at the office. Hyundai here I come. Or Chery. Can we say backlash ?
The sense of loyalty to their customers has been lacking on both the management and UAW side. Now we’re supposed to sit idly by, shut up and keep on paying ?
There is no turn around plan, just a continued corporate circle jerk, business as usual mentality among these companies.
Yo fools; hate on this: I didn’t do it to ya, ya did it to yourselves. Just because even your customers saw it coming and talk about it doesn’t mean we’re haters.
If it makes me a hater to have watched this decline for decades and be anti bail out, so be it.An accusation of that sort [and the “if you didn’t vote for Obama you’re a racist” raving ] doesn’t work any longer.
Not taking on any unearned guilt for anyone.
Detroit won’t be improved with a quick cash infusion.It needs a total douching out from top to bottom and only Chapter 11 will do that.
The Detroit 3 need to clarify their request, big time –
Call it:
“A Bridge to somewhere => 2010”
Assuming (never assume) nothing else “bad” happens in the next few months:
Detroit needs $25B – $50B “bridge loan” to make it till 2010, where Detroit will realize significant savings from new UAW contract….
GM needs loan ASAP.
If GM goes Chapter 11 =>
Suppliers go Chapter 11 =>
Ford, Chrysler => probably go Chapter 11
GM, Ford, Chrysler survival after Chapter 11 – possible, however probably not likely – definitely not guaranteed….
This is all.
I’m pissed at the situation the D3 find themselves in, but I don’t *hate* them. If they would build a car I want (something in the compact class that could actually compete) then I’d have them on my shopping list.
– They build great trucks.
– They build reasonably good large cars.
– They build some very nice performance/musclecars.
– They build the lowest common denominator in compact cars.
I’d love it if the D3 could get their collective act together and really make some substantive changes but there is no evidence to support this *ever* happening. That’s not something to hate. That’s something to pity.
I don’t care if they hate “Detroit” aka the domestic car companies, though some of that hate is clearly irrational. Saying you’ll never buy an American car because your dad had a POS Ford or Chevy back in 1985 is a bit like saying you’ll never shop at Sears because your Kenmore washing machine two decades ago failed to live up to your expectations. Nobody does that. Just like nobody complains when they decide to buy a new iPod because it makes no economic sense to repair their old one out of warranty. They rationalize the choice because the new model is cheaper and has more features than the old one. They don’t hate Apple for effectively charging them a subscription fee for using their products. Actually, iPods can at least be repaired. Most consumer electronics these days, some costing hundreds of dollars, can’t be repaired. Most of the pc boards have surface mount components, so you can’t really replace individual failed components, and most companies don’t make the boards and modules available as replacement parts. Companies, mostly Asian, sell us crap under the idea that if there’s a warranty claim, they’ll just replace it with a new or “refurbished” model, and assume rightly that nobody’s going to bother to repair it out of warranty because of the cost. So they don’t even bother engineering the products to be repaired. Do these companies even raise the ire of consumers, let alone provoke hostility and anger like you see concerning the domestics?
But who ever said that consumers were true rational actors?
In any case, I don’t care nearly so much about those who hate “Detroit” as those who hate Detroit. Robert may enjoy his cruise down de Nile, but there have been, on this site and just about every other automotive site, attacks on and insults to not just the car companies but the people who live in Detroit and Michigan. I’m not the only person who’s noticed it or has commented upon it. It’s not just cheerleaders for the domestics who feel the hate. Most Detroiters and Michiganders can make a more trenchant critique of the domestics because we are closer to the problems. You know your family’s problems more intimately than your neighbor does. Even harsh critics of the domestic car companies have noticed the hostility to Detroiters.
Robert, you loses credibility when you deny the hate. From here it looks like you perceive that bringing up the subject of hate, either for “Detroit” or Detroit, is a personal attack on you.
TTAC revels in mocking your competitors by name yet when other blogs and writers don’t even mention TTAC or RF in responding to some of the criticism of the domestics, you start sounding like Travis Bickle.
The Truth About Cars, perhaps. The truth about people who hate Detroit and Detroiters? Not so much.
But what do I know? I live in Michigan, and according to a comment posted here on TTAC the other day, we Michiganders are not as perceptive as the Japanese. Maybe that’s the explanation – our perception is so flawed that we don’t recognize all the love that is flowing when people call us stupid, lazy, clueless, grubby, greedy, and dishonest.
Bozoer Rebbe :
Do you disagree that the D3 are poorly run and unsustainable even with a bailout?
What evidence is there that any of the Big 3 (with a possible exception of Ford) might actually do anything meaningful with the bailout money other than keep the lights on a few months longer?
Whom those dealers do not treat like shit? Those are same “Ganefs” who has Toyota/Honda dealerships but the attitude and rip off at D2.8 are much worse then at Asians/Europeans.
So you’re saying that a mega dealer deliberately sends its worst employees to staff their domestic stores?
I’d really like you to explain how this works? The dealers are owned by the same company and report to the same managers. While the manufacturers have some say in franchisees operations, on the showroom floor it’s up to the dealer, not the RenCen or the Glass House.
Do you think Roger Penske runs his Chevy stores differently than his Toyota shops?
You do have to chuckle just a little when you consider your belief that relatively few people hate Detroit and then realize that such a disproportionate number of them have managed to find their way here.
Go figure…..
jkross22:
“It’s more expeditious to accuse someone of hate than to debate tangible issues, esp. when facts are not in support of what they support.”
As a conservative I experience this all too often.
Bancho:
“Bozoer Rebbe:
Do you disagree that the D3 are poorly run and unsustainable even with a bailout?”
That wasn’t the point about his post. That wasn’t the topic at hand. His feeling about the condition/blame/bailout of Detroit was not the topic.
Bozoer Rebbe :
Two words: Bill Heard.
OK, three: Bill Heard Chevrolet.
OK nine: what did GM do about Bill Heard Chevrolet’s thievery?
If people scammed by BH hate Chevrolet (or similar), can we really blame them? Are they wrong? Yes, the transplant stealerships are also a pox. But can you show me an example where a transplanted automobile company allowed such epic, widespread consumer fraud?
But again, I reckon BH and other D2.8 dealership victims are a majority. They probably assign blame for bad service to dealerships in general.
As for crap cars, well, that’s another matter. And if that resentment, perhaps even hatred lingers, well, whose fault is that? Blaming the victim is never a good idea, for anyone concerned.
gamper
Example?
windswords :
The thing is, with the situation the D3 have gotten themselves into, it’s going to generate some very strong feelings. Those feelings are not always likely to be sympathy. Despite that, I wouldn’t characterize it as simple hatred.
There’s a lot of frustration in *knowing* that no matter what amount of money is thrown at these guys nothing fundamental will change. I’d say the prevailing feeling is anger and frustration.
The MSM has been training Americans to think that the words “Disagree” and “Hate” are identical.
Well at least when you disagree with the PC world view.
If they disagree with you…
If a buddy of mine in a wheel chair with no mountaineering experience says he is going to climb K2 and I opine that the odds are against him is that hate?
Sane, intelligent thinking that goes against “conventional” media thinking is “hate”.
“A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a live thing can go against it” G. K. Chesterton
For life,
Bunter
See Bunter’s third paragraph, directly above. Well said!
In the same manner as the CNN scribe, the NYT editorial board tars all those who oppose mass immigration and illegal immigration with synonyms for “hater.” At this point, mass immigration is stupid [in this case de facto] policy, as probably is a bailout.
# Bancho
Do you disagree that the D3 are poorly run and unsustainable even with a bailout?
What does that have to do with hating Detroiters and Michiganders? Nobody knows how poorly run the automakers are more than the folks who work for them and do business with them. When I worked for DuPont we had 2 dozen accounts receivables folks who worked on nothing but trying to get GM to pay us for our paint. They wouldn’t follow our guidelines for applying our products and then blame us. They’d be too cheap to flush their lines out, but quick to complain about dirt or other contaminants in the finish. I worked for a small business that sold to Chrysler, Ford and the Federal gov’t but wouldn’t even bid on GM because they take forever to pay. Of course, there was also the Inaki debacle.
Chrysler is unsustainable, particularly because they have no product in the pipeline. Jeep may survive as a brand.
GM is a tossup. I think the problem with GM is that it’s just so bureaucratic and has the maneuverability of an aircraft carrier.
Ford seems to have their shit together under Mullaly so if they can get past the current crisis they have the best chance of the 3 to turn it around.
What evidence is there that any of the Big 3 (with a possible exception of Ford) might actually do anything meaningful with the bailout money other than keep the lights on a few months longer?
What evidence is there than any of the folks bailed out with taxpayer funded flood insurance will move away from a flood plain? We’re spending about $300 billion rebuilding New Orleans, a city that’s below sea level.
Do you have a problem with rebuilding New Orleans? It will, you know, flood again.
Bozoer Rebbe :
:) Actually, I *do* have a problem with that to a fair extent. I know *I* wouldn’t live in a flood plain. It just seems foolish to me. Especially when the consequences can be that catastrophic. On the other hand though, I don’t hate people from New Orleans. I just think it’s a stupid place to build a city.
I agree about Chrysler. I somewhat agree about GM (except I would have used a Titanic analogy rather than the aircraft carrier one). I agree about Ford especially. If anyone could make the most of the proposed bailout money, it’s them.
Anyway, if people *do* actually hate the D3, it’s tough to refute some of their justification. I just think that there are too many variables to boil it down to simple hate for the vast majority.
Bozoer Rebbe :
Two words: Bill Heard.
OK, three: Bill Heard Chevrolet.
OK nine: what did GM do about Bill Heard Chevrolet’s thievery?
Is the dealership still open? Eventually GM pulled the plug on their floorplanning. To be sure, it might have been because BHC was starting to rip off GM and GMAC, but they did eventually step in.
Considering how powerful franchise laws are, I’m not sure what a manufacturer can do unless the dealer has broken contractual agreements. Perhaps the solution is for the manufacturer to make customer service levels part of the contract, just like they do with forcing building of new showrooms.
Dealers are critical in the process. Toyota gained a foothold in the US market not just because their cars were reliable. The cars they sold in the 1970s were hardly stellar. At the time, I was a parts runner for Coop Auto Repair in Ann Arbor. The Toy store had a wall full of love letters to the dealer – not about the cars but about good customer service.
If people scammed by BH hate Chevrolet (or similar), can we really blame them?
Only when that hate is transferred to Detroiters and Michiganders, something you deny is happening.
But can you show me an example where a transplanted automobile company allowed such epic, widespread consumer fraud?
Yeah, Google Mel Farr. His original Ford dealership was visible from my house. He did shit like weekly payment financing, shut off devices if you didn’t make your payment and in general made his money selling cars to folks who couldn’t buy them. BTW, the Rev. Jesse Jackson had equity in the company making the shut off devices. No exploitation of poor people there, no not at all.
Ford eventually pulled his Ford and Mercury franchises. His unsavory history as a dealer didn’t stop Hyundai and Kia, eager to expand, from giving him franchises. Suzuki awarded him a franchise as well. All this took place, as far as I now, after Ford shut him down. One day the lot at the Ford Dealer (formerly Northland Ford, in business since the early 1960s) was denuded of cars and Ford’s taking down the sign, and a few weeks later up pops a Kia dealership on 8 Mile.
One reason why too many dealers hurts a manufacturer is quality control. If you have fewer dealers it’s easier to ride herd on them.
Robert, seriously…..you really need examples. If I had some time to go thread diving and make a list, I am sure I could come up with a doozy. Now, I will agree that hate is a very absolute term, so maybe I will revise my position to say that this site is populated with a disproportionate number of people who are experiencing extreme schadenfreude due to the recent events.
Bozoer Rebbe :
:) Actually, I *do* have a problem with that to a fair extent. I know *I* wouldn’t live in a flood plain. It just seems foolish to me. Especially when the consequences can be that catastrophic. On the other hand though, I don’t hate people from New Orleans. I just think it’s a stupid place to build a city.
Even more stupid to rebuild it there.
My point is that I can cite handfuls of examples of the taxpayers not only throwing good money after bad but do it so time and again. I figure that if we can afford to insure people living on flood plains and let them use our money to rebuild over and over, the argument that there’s no guarantee that a bailout will work doesn’t hold water, no pun intended. We do shit with no guarantees all the time, even worse, we fund things knowing that they’ll fail.
I wonder how the AFT/NEA feel about the bailout. After all, they keep clamoring for more money to be allocated to education and the public schools in the United States are so, so successful.
schadenfreude
Gamper,
While researching that word, I came across a beautiful word from the Buddhist tradition, mudita, “sympathetic joy” or “happiness in another’s good fortune,”. In Yiddish, there’s a phrase, “shep nachas”, from the Hebrew word nachat which means comfort or rest, and means taking pleasure, pride or comfort in the achievements of others – often your kids or others with whom you have ties.
I work for one of the Detroit 2.8 and live in the ‘burbs of Detroit. Do I hate my friends and coworkers and want my company to fail? Absolutely not!
But here is what I do hate – The culture that has been created within my company and I stepped into 10 years ago.
It’s the culture that rewards failure and touts ‘successes’ like creating a new process, or executing a recall efficiently, instead of figuring out the root cause so it doesn’t happen again. (true story-one of the groups I was in received a prestigious award for sending out apology letters to customers)
I hate a culture that is long on excuses, but short on admission, and accountability is non-existent.
Th people at the top of my company have been rewarded with raises and promotions during a time in which market share has been cut by a third (roughly) and the stock has dropped 90%. But thy have been REWARDED during this time….why would they change their behavior when this exact behavior (excuses and obfuscation) got them to where they are today?
I like my job and love my company,and want to see it succeed, but frankly in my opinion it it needs a Chapter 11, along with a fundamental culture shift brought about by a charismatic, visionary leader in order to survive..
Bancho:
“There’s a lot of frustration in *knowing* that no matter what amount of money is thrown at these guys nothing fundamental will change. I’d say the prevailing feeling is anger and frustration.”
You got that right. And that in and of itself is not hate. But as someone else said here if you could go “dumpster diving” thru the old threads you would find plenty of examples of hate filled comments towards the D3. Although GM seems to have more than the others (maybe this is in tune with their former market share?).
Now to be fair, I believe the majority of people who make comments like “I hope you die GM!”, or ” I will celebrate the day this company goes down the tubes”, don’t really mean it. They are just venting their frustrations for something that happened to them that they feel (rightly or wrongly) is the fault of the D3. But if you gave them a magic lever to pull that would end the company’s existince and put all those employee’s and businesses that depend on that automaker out of work they would not do it. Unfortunately, I fear that there are some who really mean it and would pull such a lever.
But here is what I do hate – The culture that has been created within my company and I stepped into 10 years ago.
Like I said, nobody knows a family’s problems better than family members.
Well, I hate Michiganders. Michigeese, too. They’re always sending cold air down our way. It’s not fair!
OK, now to be serious. Bunter1, thank you for pointing out that “disagree” is not synonymous with “hate.” Similarly, I would say that “criticism” is not inherently tortious. Sadly, our societal conversations tend too often to veer into invective. That is especially the case when Internet posters have the protection of anonymity.
Long ago I came across an adage that struck me as deeply true: “The root of all hatred is self-hatred.” A person who feels victimized, and lacks the means of redressing the injustice, comes to despise his impotency–and therefore, others who are better off. I suspect those angry about purchasing bad cars are more likely to resent domestic manufacturers because Detroit and the UAW are seen as having enjoyed a privileged status.
In these terms, the D3 and UAW are like spoiled children, accustomed to living well and now trying to avoid the consequences of bad decisions. “Tough love” is the remedy, and only bankruptcy can force the necessary sacrifices. Some will suffer hugely, but we must keep a sense of perspective. Detroit’s retirees enjoy, we often hear, gold-plated health coverage and pensions. We know UAW members have terrific health benefits; I bet D3 retiress also have enviable pensions. (Anyone have specifics?) A partial reduction in their standard living is surely not the same as being made destitute.
windswords :
I agree with what you wrote. Some posters comments could be construed as kneejerk reactions rather than actual hatred. Others (the ones who would pull the lever in your example) really do hate the D3 for whatever reason. I think though, that RF is correct that the sort that would pull that lever are actually in the minority.
“I’m not a fan of the American auto industry”**Rep. David Obey, D-Wis., chairman of the House Appropriations Committee
I do think geography and culture both play a certain role in this perceived jealousy, which does exist. Hate is a rather strong word to use for critics. When Detroit and Michigan (Donor State) were wealthy, many other areas of the country looked at us with a HUGE amount of jealousy. Lot of politicians and movers/shakers in the south eyed Detroit with suspicion and semi-hatred due to the Arsenal’s success. Remember, this was a place where a hillbilly with a 4th grade education could work hard on the line at Dodge Main and earn enough to have a home, and possibly send his kids off to college.
It was a HUGE cultural change. Now, don’t tell me that other areas of the country weren’t jealous. The American auto industry was built and driven from Detroit. Sure, there other small makers located in other states but they meant little. A LOT of recent jealousy and hate has been directed at Michigan from California. Recently, Michigan has authorized film tax breaks and several dozen films have been moved their shoot locations from California to Michigan. You think that doesn’t piss em off at least a bit?
Watch this http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=922861345&play=1
The whole “hate” thing is intellectually weak. If you can’t be more specific about someone’s bias, then you can’t use it too make a point.
“People hate Detroit,” is about as specific as, “We went to a good restaurant.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Too many people are calling us cheerleaders and painting the picture that we’re happy about GM’s failure. As always, people miss the point.
http://www.ridelust.com/autoblogs-make-work-bias-and-the-truth-about-the-gm-bailout/
From another thread:
They are absolutely out of touch with their customers, in part because they are in that backward looking nostalgic quagmire that is southeastern Michigan.
Yep, Robert,
Nobody is dissing the folks who live around Detroit. Nope, not at all. These must not be the droids I’m looking for.
My local D3 dealers are all pretty good. The Ford dealer has improved greatly as of late. The GM dealers have always been excellent. The local Honda dealer is excellent but the Toyota dealers are poor.
Though this is not specifically about the Big 3 (though it touches on Ford) if you like, hear me out. I don’t think its really “hate” per se, its more like a perception that car makers (in general) don’t care! Everyboy talks about how aftersales service is so important why don’t car makers get it?
Down here, almost all dealers, come review time, try to add a whole bunch of mostly unnecessary extra services (like fuel injector cleaning, I ask why if they’re supposed to be self-cleansing?). This is part of the came. As a smart consumer you just say no, demand what’s in the manual and make clear you won’t put up with any crap. Friendly, stress-free? Certainly not, but that’s how it works. And the result is that after the warranty expires, people just don’t go back to the dealer. Can’t they see they’re shooting themselves in the foot?
As anybody who’s read my comments can attest, I’m a Fiat guy. But even so, after a run of about 4 of their cars, I got sick of the sealer experience. Mind you, the dealers not the cars. And so I shopped around. Because of that Fiat lost about 3 sales and my business for about 5 years. Now I’m back in the fold though and I’m happy to report the dealer experience is much improved making me positive another Fiat car is a possibility in the mid term (’cause now I have a brand new car and a 2 year old one ’cause I knew the crunch was coming and I hurried to beat it).
on the other hand, to get rid of a POS Ford Ka I bought brand new last year I took the financial hit. The dealers were helpful and all, the company even called me a couple of times (Even though the e-mail I sent to Ford USA complaning was answered in a very perfunctory kind of way I didn’t appreciate), but they just didn’t fix the lemon. Instead of changing it for me, an losing some cash, they preferred to see me wander off and buy a car from a competitor (Renault and one who in Brazil is hot going after Ford’s 4th place in the market). In other words, they preferred to save a little money upfront than invest in making more money down the line. Stupid? Me thinks.
But, do I hate Ford? No. Will I be buying their product anytime soon? No. I don’t know how badly ripped off Americans were in the 70s and 80s, but it must have been mayor for so many of you to hate your home companies. Don’t do that. It’s not worth it. And the American landscape will be much poorer if they die, everybody driving Civics and Corollas and CRVS and whatnot.
End of rant.