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Could you, you know, label the pictures so we know what we’re supposed to be looking at? (and why/why not it may be troublesome)
It’s a pre-production car. Could be a plant tryout vehicle. That’s why they build them – so they can find the problems and fix them. No big deal.
It may be pre-production, but the photos are still very disturbing…ugh.
Some pieces of rubber strips and door seams. Are the door seams to wide? Are the rubber strips to rubbery? I’m not sure what is wrong with these pictures nor am I sure what is right with these pictures.
Job1 is late this winter, the cars out now are very pre-production. Pre-production Pontiac GTOs had hoods and trunks that didn’t fit and things like this. None of it is present on the production 2006 Pontiac GTO I bought. It’s never been in for a repair of any kind since I purchased it either.
Word Games. “Production ready” may not necessarly mean “Customer Ready”. It may mean the assembly lines are in place, the general tooling done and other basic aspects.
I’ve seen new Honda Accords or Audis with worse alignments than these.
Let’s wait and see what actually transpires when the true first-production Camaros roll off the line.
And perhaps, TTAC should take a holiday over reporting about GM? It’s getting to be “mono-toned” here. Perhaps instead TTAC can bash Ford for its discontinuing the GT (with or without Whiffleproofing) ?
I don’t see the problem. Looks like the normal, exemplary quality I’m used to from GM; still burned by my ’03 new lemon and still amazed by a new ’06 Grand Prix rental that had rusting door hinges.
Hope Ford survives, cause they’re the last one left in flyover country that can build a good car (well, they build a good Mazda and an excellent truck anyway).
What’s the problem? Looks GM ready to me. Not Ford, Honda, or Toyota ready, but for GM… looks spot on. /end sarcasm
For clarification, these were signed as “2010 Camaro” not “Camaro Concept.” Of course this is no guarantee that these came off the actual production line, but the details show that these examples are not ready for prime-time.
The yellow model pictured was labeled “2010 Camaro LT/RS.” The silver model was labled “2010 Camaro SS.” I would emphasize that these details were shockingly obvious to the naked eye, yet totally overlooked by the adoring throngs.
kurtamaxxguy :
Word Games. “Production ready” may not necessarly mean “Customer Ready”. It may mean the assembly lines are in place, the general tooling done and other basic aspects.
I’ve seen new Honda Accords or Audis with worse alignments than these.
Let’s wait and see what actually transpires when the true first-production Camaros roll off the line.
X2
It’s pretty much obvious that that car has not been audited, ACOM’d, etc…
Too many defects, obviously is not customer ready. Do you really think cars get nice at the first try? LOL
Don’t see the big deal, point, etc…
I have some quality audit sheets for the Aveo, and those defects are definetely NOT allowed.
I’ll put this in the MEH/YAWN drawer.
I made the mistake of buying a 2004
GMC Canyon when it first came out. The wind whistled through the doors until I put house window weather stripping on them. The hood flopped up and down at highway speeds until I put weather stripping under it too. I had to punch holes in the driver’s side floor to let the water run out after a rain. And I had to realign the passenger door myself to line it up.
The front bumper rattled because the bolts were loose. And the front grill popped out on rough pavement. The front end was not aligned correctly and the right tire began to wear down unevenly until I visually lined it up.
A rear tire had a blow out at 15K miles with a lot of good tread still on it. No lubricant was put on the oil filter gasket at assembly and the only way to remove it was to pound a screw driver through it and destroy it since the gasket had seized up.
Fortunately it is good in snow when it decides it wants to start in cold weather.
It was built in Louisiana by quality union labor.
The main reason I bought the thing was the style, price and a tax write off which were all good IMO.
The pictures are just typical GM. Nothing new here.
They just slapped it together cause they knew they wouldn’t be around in the future to build any great number of them.
GM is history because their saviour the Volt priced itself out of reach of being a big seller. 40k no way. 16k and sell millions of them(if fuel is greater then $3/gal). Cheap fuel is killer to alt energy.
Maybe a few Mustangs get sold. No Challengers get sold. This Camaro will be just like the Challenger(big, heavy, expensive car).
This kind of stuff is typical in pre-production. I don’t know why TTAC has to scratch this low to pick on GM; they have more than enough things to find fault with that are actually meaningful…
I have a 09 GMC sierra as a demo, it’s doors and hood fit a bit better but not much. Inconsistent fit all around. Very disappointing.
What’s the problem? These things are supposed to to harken back to the 1970’s, no?
GM is done. You should be happy. Is there some point in beating a dead horse?
These don’t look like shots of a production car. By the way, there’s another stage, too…”pilot”.
I own a bonafide “pilot” TBSS, and there’s a little special, ummm…”joy” in that, too. But I wanted to be the first to have one…
If you wanted perfect, you wouldn’t be buying GM, anyway. And they aren’t known for being quick at making running changes after the first few months, so quite often the later first year models are as good as year 2 or 3 (not counting upgrades or outright new features – just build quality).
Am I supposed to infer that based on a few closeups of molded rubber weatherstripping, a few magnified panel gaps, etc that the fit and finish of the production Camaro will be less than perfect? Give me a break. If I were to take a bunch of close ups of my Honda Fit, and throw them out there on the web, it would look no better. Plus, you know, I could also photograph the permanent, etched damage to the clear coat that occurred because I did not immediately wash off a few one inch bird shit splotches. The point I am trying to make is that there is no such thing as a perfect car, that even the best examples in each segment have their own disappointments, and maybe I can forgive a few flash lines on the Camaro’s weatherstripping if it means I get a 306hp DI V6 in an independently sprung car for less than $24G. Plus, you know, craftsmanship costs, and does not always translate into longevity. My trouble prone (yet beautifully constructed) VW Jetta 1.8L turbo proved this to me – over and over.
Must’ve been built on a Friday. In Mexico.
Sometimes your posts really make it apparent how little you know about the business of making and selling cars. Your previous shock that GM didn’t pay COD was a good example.
This is another one. If these pictures came from a dealer lot after start of regular production that would be one thing. But they didn’t. They came from Pre-Production Vehicles what were built from soft tools. One of the reasons this is done is to learn how to best build the car. Another reason is so that the body shop could learn how to manage the exterior fits.
I know TTAC doesn’t put a lot of thought or research into many of it’s posts. But this is just embarrassing.
The lack of text speaks volumes about the lack of knowledge of the contributor.
Normally, I would say this is kind of a cheap shot. OTOH, GM is notorious for having PR reps assuring magazine writers that a rather obvious flaw on a test vehicle “will be fixed on production versions”, yet it rarely, if ever, happens.
It’s not hard to verify these incidents, either. Simply look at a test in a major rag of a pre-production vehicle, then compare it with one of the same vehicle in Consumer Reports (which makes a point of obtaining production vehicles from dealers). Invariably, the article which uses a pre-production vehicle will have a problem that is present in the report on the production vehicle, as well, despite the claims of some GM PR flack to the contrary.
So, given GM’s history of not fixing pre-production problems, there is the likelihood that most (if not all) of the flaws in the photos will, indeed, find their way onto the production cars.
Each of the big three had an “it” car at SEMA. For Chrysler it was the Challenger, Ford hyped the Flex and GM highlighted the Camaro. The Camaro was one of the few vehicles at the entire show that was being shown in factory trim.
I’m not implying that when the Camaro eventually makes it to dealerships it will have poorly-fitting doors, uneven panel gaps, mangled weather-stripping and poorly-fabricated pillar components. I’m saying that after two-and-a-half years of vigorous pimping, these were the best Camaros GM had to show the faithful.
GM was the second OEM stand I went to (after Ford), and the Camaro’s quality defects really jumped out at me. From then on I paid close attention to fit-and-finish at other booths. Some of the worst were the Passat CC which had some panel gap issues, and the Kia Soul Burner which had some serious finish problems. Nothing without custom bodywork and certainly no other OEM offering had as many (or severe) obvious defects as the Camaro. If anything, the photos above understate the effect, which was (as I mentioned earlier) instantly evident to the naked eye.
I’ll go ahead and post some more pictures. It’s a handsome car, and I understand why GM wants it to be a success.
Ed, if you wanted to criticize the GM marketing department for not having the car reworked to make it presentable for a show you should have included that in the post. It’s a pretty valid complaint, with data to back it up. Instead you looked uninformed and biased. I think you should update the post and acknowledge the error.
Just an observation ED. You do know what the phrase “Jumped the Shark” means
I like to read the reviews on TTAC but all of this non-stop GM bashing is getting REALLY annoying. This just continues my frustration… these are PRE-PRODUCTION vehicles.
Okay, they are at the SEMA show and being called 2010, woo hoo. To the average SEMA atendees these are awesome vehicles to look at. I could understand if these were PRODUCTION units or at an actual auto show where more in depth photography and reviews would take please, but this is peanuts.
TTAC seriously needs to focus on more car reviews and info instead of bashing every damned domestic auto maker to death. I own a foreign car, own zero stock in any American car brand, and still find it ridiculous that a site can focus so much of their resources on this subject. Yes, this is an important subject in the American economy, but there is no need for so many damned articles on a motorhead site. Focus on the damned cars please!
Pre-production or not – it’s pathetic. To say “prototyping” excuses the defects is to miss the point entirely.
Any car that is not finished shouldn’t be anywhere near the public eye.
Each person at SEMA is giving the Camaro one shot to impress. In case you hadn’t noticed, aesthetics are a huge part of SEMA. Panel gaps = FAILURE.
Proof that GM doesn’t get how or care to address the perception surrounding its products.
Hey America guess whose tax dollars will be paying for this.
On the plus side, at least this unfinished mule isn’t for sale – unlike, say the Solstice, another example of GM taking the cake out of the oven a wee bit too early.
A new Camaro has virtually no chance of being a market success. This is the kind of impractical luxury people MAY buy in times they feel economically sound. Or unmarrieds MAY buy in times they feel their meager salaries allow easy and cheap credit.
But more importantly GM has no marketing budget to promote this model. So it will be something for blogging fans to discuss but not buy. And then it will go away, a product 10 years too late.
Everybody take a deep breath…….ahhh thats better. These are all non-saleable units. The saleable units are being built until mid december. The major difference is the saleable builds have PPAP’ed or signed off and certified parts. Non-saleable builds can still use proto-type tooling and not the production tooling that customer cars will get. To GM’s credit (is that allowed here?) They pushed the saleable build backa few weeks because there were a heap of parts and tools not ready or up to standard. Production has pushed back until the end of Feb also. Oops I have said too much!
Guys: If a car company exhibits crapola like this at a car show, then times are really, really bad. Usually, cars put on display (or given to journos) are gone over with the proverbial fine tooth comb. Maybe Niedermeyer should have made that point. Maybe not. He usually writes hymnic prose. He probably thought: “Let these pictures speak for themselves.” Well, in this case, subtlety didn’t pay off.
As we say in the parts business: “If the sample is shit, what will series be?”
Yes, it’s pre-production, and yes, it’s a prototype at a car show. But the sloppy finish is nonetheless disturbing. Like the rust on that other GM car show prototype, was it the Volt?
There’s a tale of a child psychiatrist, who would get a first impression of the childs situation by looking at the childs fingernails. Filthy fingernails indicated an abandoned child. This was back in the days, when being a doctor was a prestige laden profession, and meeting a doctor was thought of as doing an exam. The psychiatrist thougt, that if the parent let loose their beloved child to him, without seeing through first that the child was properly washed and dressed, in detail down to scrubbing the fingernails off their dirt, that would indicate that the parents just didn’t care.
And so it is with this situation, displaying a sloppy executed prototype at a car show, just shows that they don’t care enough of their repuation or the peoples perception of their products. It’s sloppy, and it’s lazy. And they don’t give a shit…
Ingvar: “And they don’t give a shit…”Which pretty much sums up GM’s attitude (and reason for their current situation) all along.
Even lurching from crisis to crisis over the years hasn’t been enough to get them to change the same, ingrained corporate culture they’ve had for decades. A sloppily assembled, pre-production new model just reinforces this sentiment.
Like I said, the “eh, we’ll fix it on the production version” just doesn’t cut it anymore when you don’t see the same level of gaffes on competitors’ publicly displayed pre-production models.
Ok First off some of the posts here are not worth
a comment.So I will adhere to the TTAC rules and take a pass.
Now for those here that do actually know something about car building,I will point a couple of things out.
Not One as in none zero nada of any Camaro produced will ever see a buyer.We have the best team of the best that GMs got on this project.
Every detail of every aspect of build quality is being scrutinized.As someone that has been involved in many vehicle launches I’m shocked at the high quality of vehicles being scrapped.
My good buddy is the best, bar none, metal finisher in the plant.The Camaro team sent his work back the other day.Body side for a car destined to be scrapped wasn’t good enough!
I’m gonna retire at xmas and with regrets that I won’t see the first saleable car.I can however drool over them at the dealers.Part of my retirement package includes a car voucher hmmmmm?
Something else needs to be said.
Who ever shot those photos would be subject to instant dismissal.Course it would be even better if we could get our hands on him.He could be the first human to perform his own Colonoscpy with a cell phone camera.
@mikey: Them’s fightin’ words! And btw. it’s colonoscopy when someone shoves a camera up yours …
Wow! I sure hope that, as Obama et al. push for open union votes, they realize that, while great for the news media, it will sure drive up the nation’s health care costs!
Thanks ,spelling and grammer have never been my strong points.I quite often proof read 3 or 4 times I guess thats why I’m not a profesional writer.
I wonder do the pros ever throw out thier draft copys.It would be awfull if someone picked em them out of the trash and they made it on the net.
S.O.P. does not equal A.O.K.
“Must’ve been built on a Friday. In Mexico.”
I had a 318i that had terrible electrical issues; my father-in-law suggested that it was a “Freitag-feiertag Auto,” essentially meaning it was built under the influence of pils (company cantinas used to serve beer during lunch as late as the mid-90’s). Alas, I found it easier (& far cheaper) just to carry an assortment of fuses w/me at all times, rather than take it to the local BMW Autohaus (which, I’m sure, also enjoyed lunchtime brews).
That said, if the world’s best automobiles were being built w/a BOC of .08 or so, imagine what could have been done under complete sobriety. Dare to dream…
mikey: The Camaro’s success (or lack thereof) will not be blamed on a lack of effort by workers like you who really believe in the car.
Any failure will rest squarely in the hands of GM management, who have made the position of the company so tenuous that buyers have lost faith in the GM brand itself, and even good efforts will be passed over in favor of “safer” choices.
Sorry, gonna have to chime in as well. Pre-production is exactly that. In fact, it isn’t uncommon that you can get to within a week of production, or slightly after start and you’re still making little adjustments on things. The fact this is still weeks or months from production means they’re sill making a lot of adjustments.
And to say SEMA is about panel gaps and weather stripping = FAILURE….um, maybe I’m the only one, but something tells me SEMA lovers don’t give two craps about panel gaps. When you’ve got 24″ wheels, ridiculously stupid paint jobs, blue lights on everything, 800 LCD TVs inside, flames everywhere, fake fender vents, chrome everywhere, etc, I seriously doubt these people would ever care about a panel gap or a piece of rubber. Do you see SEMA vendors selling their pimp-ass weather stripping or their panel-gap fillers? Its all about flash (not the plastic kind) and looks. So why the hate for GM putting what is overall an excellently styled car in pre-production form at the show??
If you had built something, and said it is a prototype, how would you react when everyone bagged your creation because it looked like scheisse? These are minor little things on non-saleable, pre-production, still in development-phase cars. Its the way it works in the auto industry (and nearly everywhere else too). To those who say pre-production cars should be nowhere near the public’s eye, what do you have to say about all the latest concept cars, or new models displayed at auto shows? Should new vehicles not be shown to anyone until they suddenly show up on a car-carrier at the dealership? Totally absurd.
@mikey: Those draft copies go on display at an annual convention and trade show called WEMA – Writer’s Error Making Association – held every year in Webster, NY.
To those who say pre-production cars should be nowhere near the public’s eye, what do you have to say about all the latest concept cars, or new models displayed at auto shows? Should new vehicles not be shown to anyone until they suddenly show up on a car-carrier at the dealership? Totally absurd
You misconstrued my statement entirely.
Pre-production cars that are not perfectly finished shouldn’t be near the public eye.
Showing off a concept is like going on a date. You can’t show up with a ratty t-shirt and halitosis.
Farago, why do you let a guy who doesn’t know a pilot production vehicle from a hot dog post on your otherwise excellent site?
And why no descriptions on the pictures? Some are obvious, others not so much. What’s wrong with the side marker? Maybe my screen is not big enough, or maybe it’s the pre-production photography…
golf4me Too much gap at the top.Toyota would let it go,but a Camaro,no way.
“pre-production photography” – excellent! and touche’ for golf4me. this editorial has to qualify for mountain/molehill award of the year. the more important issue is that a once great American company has been mismanaged to death, and the word is finally getting out (kudos to RF for his early insight). Even the guy on the street is going to question a GM purchase now that every cable news station is asking whether GM will go bankrupt or be put on government welfare. i am personally more upset about ford, they are making a superhuman effort to correct their problems and it might not be in time, or they might fall into the sinkhole created largely by GM. I hope Ford makes it, and btw i’d like to see more recognition of Ford’s efforts by the TTAC eds.
OK..so I finally figured out I was looking at a SEMA car after reading 2/3 of the posts.
Is this a factory presented car direct from GM or one of their “dollar cars” they gave to an aftermarket show car builder to do an interpretation on?
Whle I agree with most of the comments re. pre-prod units, for a major show they usually try and get the cars “right”.
But – on the other hand – if this was a dollar car the builder proabably thrashed on it till the last minute (the joke is the paint is still wet on these cars as they roll them off the haulers) and the factory folks wouldn’t have seen the finished product until it loaded in at Vegas at which point their options are somewhat limited.
sad
I noticed a mistake in grammar in the spec sheet, as long as we are nitpicking. They say “maybe” when they mean “may be”.
Ridiculous nitpicking. Was every other vehicle at the SEMA show scrutinized like the Camaro? I doubt it.
This stuff is normal for pre-prod. You should have seen the pre-prod H2s.
Funny, these could be pictures of the new Firebird I was all excited about when I was younger, dumber and a fan of Pontiac.
@sammy hagar: I had a 318i that had terrible electrical issues; my father-in-law suggested that it was a “Freitag-feiertag Auto,” essentially meaning it was built under the influence of pils (company cantinas used to serve beer during lunch as late as the mid-90’s).
I recall a visit to the Audi plant In Ingolstadt in the late 70’s. Not a tourist visit, this one was for real. This was in preparation of the upcoming Audi Quattro. After carelessly opening the door of a prototype and ripping the trim strip off while doing it, nobody less than Herr Treser himself ripped me a new orifice. Anyway, down in the factory, I noticed odd rings, and odd metal discs maybe 4 inches below the rings, both welded solid to equipment next to every worker’s station on the line. I inquired, and was told: “That’s for beer bottles.” “Beer on the job?” “This is Bavaria,” I was told, “things are different here, as you should well know.” Being Bavarian, I nodded assent.
Now, no more booze on the job. But I could lead you to a certain Gasthaus or two, barely outside any German plant, that has rows and rows of freshly “gezapftes” Pils (or make that lager down in Bavaria) awaiting a thirsty clientele storming the establishment at lunch break. Have a few, back to work.
The “Freitag-Feiertag” car is known as “Montags-Auto” in Germany: Made with a huge hangover.
Bridge2far: “Ridiculous nitpicking. Was every other vehicle at the SEMA show scrutinized like the Camaro? I doubt it.”RTFF. This was specifically addressed by the author about 26 comments prior.
Didn’t read all the comments so sorry if this has been addressed.
These are “Production Intent” Camaros as in the design of what you see is what the production car will be but these are not final production cars. Non-saleable but final production cars will be at most autoshows by late Jan or early Feb.
Or you can just wait until the begining of March and see/touch and actual saleable production Camaro.
Steve_S : Assuming GM can find the cash to make it that far.
Many of you guys clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. As a design engineer, let me assure you that in any other industry this would be an absolute disgrace. This is a show product, meant to impress at first glance. Even pre-production prototype toasters are gone over with a fine tooth comb and QA out the whazoo. Future (often contract) sales are on the line. In many cases display prototypes actually perform better than production models for this very reason. GM is no different, if it offers detritus rather than ‘the best it has to offer’ as its showpiece, future sales are most definitely on the line. This car wouldn’t have been ready for a 1957 Motorama exhibit.
Most SEMA attendees are not idiots, they’ve seen what others have on offer presently and previously, and can spot a dog without any coaching. This car is and will be a dog, quality wise, if this is the best GM can do, it best stay on the porch. Desperation to show “something” new is all I can think of for putting this car on display as-is. Instead, what it shows is that GM barely cares anymore.