With a bit of luck, I’ll finish this editorial before House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tells America how Washington will save Detroit by spending your tax money on a domestic automobile industry beyond salvation. I doubt it. As we’ve previously reported, our duly elected representatives have already met with the titanic captains of Ford, GM, Chrysler and the U.A.W. in a closed-door session. I’m sure they got their ducks— and our bucks— in a row. Nancy will sing an ode to the working man and pen a paean to the importance of American heavy industry. Grim faces will then face a grim task: figuring out the fastest way to put Ford, GM and Chrysler on federally-funded life support.
GM first, of course. It’s out of money. Today’s third quarter financial report admits that the American automaker doesn’t have enough cash to last until the end of the year (actually next month). While GM’s impending implosion virtually guarantees prompt federal mammary provision, “prompt” may not be good enough. In truth, GM is a breached and rudderless ship slipping into a sea of red ink. If Pelosi and pals don’t get the bailout done in a couple of weeks, the public will see GM’s situation as one that’s beyond repair.
Now that the GM bankruptcy story has “broken,” the mainstream media will start asking the tough questions that TTAC’s been asking for years. Such as, who is this NSFW who’s run GM into an iceberg, and ram it repeatedly? Why was this corporate helmsman paid over $100m in salary and benefits to do so? (Someone might even mention Wagoner’s bankruptcy-proof pension.) Why should we believe a thing he says? And why is he still here?
When Congress doled-out $700b to the financial industry, the average American had no clue what the Hell the money was for, why it was needed and what was going to be done with it. Credit swaps? Sub-what? They revolted. And then the stock market dropped and the bailout bill passed. But cars are a different matter. Cars they know. What are the chances that GM’s going to build a car I want to buy using my tax money? Sure, I want to protect jobs. But I also want to protect my tax money. So… screw it.
GM has but one weapon to counteract this argument: the plug-in hybrid electric – gas Chevrolet Volt. The Volt is a damp squib stuck in development Hell. GM may have fooled the financial community (and itself) with its constant talk of the next Next Big Thing, but with gas prices hovering at $2 a gallon, the wind has gone out of the Volt’s sails (sales?). It’s too much, too late.
Detroit’s bailout backers face another problem: there is an alternative.
Our anonymous contributor’s pro-bankruptcy editorial contains the kernels of a GM bailout backlash, based on sound business principles. Once Ms. Pelosi’s emotional appeal to working class values loses its emotional resonance, pundits will argue against “throwing good money after bad.” The General’s public will cotton-on to the idea that it’s not a case of bailout or die. It’s a case of bailout AND die.
As Bill O’Reilly would say, the bailout bonanza also has an “unresolved problem” segment. Cerberus. Chrysler’s owners are a deep-pocketed private equity firm. If they glom onto a federal bailout– and ChryCo CEO Bob Nardelli was in that room with Pelosi– voters will NOT be happy subsidizing Feinberg’s fat cats. Or, for that matter, the Ford family, who still control The Blue Oval through their special class of stock.
It’s no wonder we’re hearing rumblings that Detroit is willing to consider taking federal bailout bucks with ”strings” attached. They recognize that the PR war– and thus the bailout itself– is not a done deal. They know they need to appear “willing to work” with legislators to “ensure that taxpayers’ money is protected.” Yada yada yada. Just get this thing done. Whatever it takes.
Of course, the truth of the matter is that there’s nothing federal funds can do to “save” Detroit. Chrysler is a basket case, and Ford and GM have no long-term future without a Chapter 11 reorganization.
Under C11 protections, using debtor-in-possession financing, GM and Ford can shed onerous labor contracts, kill brands, terminate dealers and get out from underneath mountainous debt and build something American want to buy. In fact, there’s only one way the feds can help GM and Ford, and the hundreds of thousands of current and former workers who depend on their survival: withhold our money from their coffers.
GM is dead. Chapter 11 is the only method by which a new GM can rise from its ashes.
Good read:
http://www.247wallst.com/2008/11/airline-chapter.html
Women, children and CEOs to the lifeboats.
If they bail out GM does that mean Obama is going to give me a new Chevy? Will Oprah be handing out keys to G8s all over America?
I have worked for GM,Chrysler, and suppliers for 40 years. I am from oriental heritage.
I watched my father work 18 hours a day 7 days a week and never take a vacation. My father never failed to get up never complained, never had health insurance or paid vacation.
When I heard that the US workers had to compete against these folks for market share. I new they were on the wrong playing field.
My father laughed at the ignorance of the US to think that the could compete against voluntary slave labor that was happy to get a meal.
If the bailout goes through, we’ll be seeing tax refund checks replaced by vouchers for your choice of fine American-made iron. The government can force you to buy a new domestic car! GM keeps its factories running and gets a chance to dispel that pesky “perception gap” once and for all. Market share rockets, and all is right with the world.
You won’t get to pick your model though. Under Obama and the Dems, you’ll get the car they decide you need. As in, “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” You know, that Marx thing.
It’s change you can believe in.
Ah! The chicken soup of collectivism…coming home to roost!
Great synopsis, RF.
I don’t understand why taxpayers that earn modest salaries and have no, or modest health care benefits, should bail out auto workers that earn generous salaries with fabulous health care benefits.
It’s gotta sting a bit for a construction worker in Texas to subsidize an auto worker in Detroit.
At this point, they might as well file. The publicity damage of a C11 that they have been so scared of has been done (or will be soon), now that the pop press has finally picked up on this.
The public now knows GM is bankrupt, so you might as well make it official and get some benefit from it.
Unfortunately, our legislature works for themselves and have the same short term view as GM management. They will play the fear tactic again and ram this through with little strings attached. There will be no accountability similiar to all the previous bailout bills.
I can imagine this will generate more discussion than the bank bailouts though especially since there has not been any talk of cutting executive compensation.
Under C11 protections, using debtor-in-possession financing, GM and Ford can shed onerous labor contracts, kill brands, terminate dealers and get out from underneath mountainout debt and build something American want to buy. In fact, there’s only one way the feds can help GM and Ford, and the hundreds of thousands of current and former workers who depend on their survival: withhold our money from their coffers.
GM is dead. Chapter 11 is the only method by which a new GM can rise from its ashes
Amen… I’m glad to see TTAC spreading the word on the ONLY viable solution. Now just add breaking them into individual companies by brand and you’d have it perfect.
Cicero
3 models only
Chevy Niva
Pontiac Lada
Cadillac Volga
It’ll be just like the Titanic, first class passengers board the life boats first (Read: CEO, Chairman, Upper Management, Board Members), third class passengers (line workers, lower management, etc…) get to drown in the red ink flooding the decks of the ship. Davy Jones’ Locker, here they come!
You won’t get to pick your model though. Under Obama and the Dems, we’ll get the car they decide we need. As in, “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” You know, that Marx thing.
You know what? This sort of thing is getting really tiring. Every political party elected to power in a western social-democratic nation, without fail, drifts just to the right of centre after election. Every. Single. One. Remember Clinton? Did you watch what happened with the “new Labour” under Blair in Britain? Do those look even remotely Marxist to you?
Hell, even the traditional right drifts leftwards to that particular just-right-of-centre point. Witness Bush, Chirac, Berluscon, Merkel and Harper.
It happens to every party. The gentle right side of centre is the natural state of governing parties because, quite frankly, that’s where the balance between equitable treatment of the populace and economic reality sits. There’s differences between countries (what qualifies as moderate right wing in the US or Austria would be full-bore whacko in France or Canada) but generally, that’s where government rests.
I can count one recently elected governments that stuck to leftist principles post-election, and that’s Spain, and even it’s drifting rightwards as reality sets in. So please, let’s drop the ideological sour grapes: Obama will not be wresting the means of production from private industry, breaking the back of religion and/or inspiring a proletariat revolt. His administration will just be an average politician, probably no pinker than Clinton or GHWBush (who, really, were pretty much exactly at the same spot on the spectrum). Classical leftists like myself are probably going to be disappointed in Obama come year two of his administration–or at least I would be if I hadn’t seen this happen before.
I realize the American political variety is badly myopic (as in you have two parties: the Right and the Ultra-Right) but has it really gotten so bad that even centrists get labelled as Bolsheviks?
Good article. Though many of the fantastic observations in the anonymous op-ed from yesterday regarding Cerberus are right-on, many of those details fall into a what Farago refers to above as “Credit swaps? Sub-what?” category.
And yeah, where’s my free Z06? By the time I’m done paying China back for all this money GM needs with interest, at the current rate it will at least be a stripped-down C6 worth of cash. Unlike GM used to be able to do, the Chinese aren’t willing to give us zero-percent for thirty year carry on this loan.
@ Cicero:
I like your idea! With gas at $1.80 here, I hope I get a Tahoe.
Seriously guys, does anybody on here really believe that Obama is gonna start his Presidency with GM going chap 11?
As Delorenzo says, notgonnahappen.com
Well, indi, B.O. may not have a choice in the matter, now, may he?
After 8 years of being totally trashed by the left, Bush has already as much as told the Detroit 2.8 to go NSFW themselves and no monies would be forthcoming while he was at the helm.
Isn’t the baton-pass to B.O. on January 22nd?
Do the math.
Chrysler and GM are – TOAST.
Political paybacks ARE truly a bitch, eh?
After all, Michigan and Ohio, hell, most of the old rust belt voted for B.O. The pro-democrat unions TELL their rank & file how to vote, for God’s sake.
Some freedom of choice.
Of course, a Chapter 11 GM and possibly even Chrysler will be “bailed out” with our taxpayer money by the B.O. and Pelosi crew.
But it’ll have to wait until February.
GM and Chrysler may be described as the “Black Knight.”
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/710431/monty_python_the_black_knight/
Perhaps, just perhaps, Ford will survive.
Congratulations RF,
After a seemingly looong time of being the (sometimes not so popular) naysayer predicting GM’s demise, you’ve finally been proven correct.
With the economy melting down all around us and Congress printing and shoveling money out like toilet paper, maybe it’s time to start the America Death Watch series.
Watch the News tonight and see where this falls in terms of importance to the MSM. It may be the 3rd!!! story behind Obama’s first press conference and the Jobs report.
So…don’t think avg Joe will hear it.
There’s 1 argument for a bailout that no president is going to be able to swallow. The loss of 250,000 jobs. The number being floated if the Detroit 3 shutter just half their US plants.
Remember, all the suppliers will be impacted too. It’s not just GM or Chrysler going down.
However, and this is rare, I agree with RF. There is no reason Chrysler should be in these talks or receive moneys. Cerebus from day 1 said they were going to sell Chrysler in bits and pieces, they just made up the part of “after it returns to profitability.” That’s never going to happen.
Now, can Chrysler declare bankruptcy to help it sell itself off? If so I see them going bankrupt. I see GM getting bailed out. They’re just too big for bankruptcy. They’ll have lots of strings attached though.
Ford will get help but is much more nimble than GM and has better leadership.
And please remember, Pelosi is NOT a fan of the auto industry and is trying to force out Dem. MI politicians out of this conversation. She wants to skewer them and make them kiss her ass. She needs to go and I’m a Dem.
You’d think someone at GM would be a little embarrassed. A little nervous. A little apologetic.
Apparently not. It’s business as usual. Just another quarter full of losses, failed managerial decisions, and cash burned.
I’m amazed that any of them can get time with a US Senator let alone private meetings. Maybe the lure of watching a train wreck in progess is so fascinating that Nancy Pelosi wanted a front row seat?
I know I’d love to hear what $14M worth of whining sounds like.
What is GM making that the world needs?
If Obama would not spend all the money on campaigning, he could bough GM or Chrysler (or both if he is a good negotiator).
I need to be more direct. The US life style for everybody in the US cannot be supported.
When somebody looks over and says your over paid for what you are doing. The over paid is everybody in the US. Everybody in the world wants to live our lifestyle. They would work 18 hours a day for their entire life to support their children for our lifestyle.
Are you willing to work 18 hours a day for life.
Admit it. We are all overpaid and the eagle is coming home to roost and it won’t be pretty unless we all understand we are a country and we need to protect everybody in this country. Or, we will wind up outsourcing everything because the world will out work US.
The longest US presidential campaign in history cost $2.2 billion, with Obama’s campaign gathering 600 million.
That’s twice as much as was spent in 2004, and 3 times as much as in 2000.
However, according to CNN, in 2007, Americans spent $6.8 billion on buying potato chips.
I guess one should keep things in perspective.
I like potato chips.
I like Obama, But do not get confused as to which is more important.
Blindfaith, you’re touching upon the crux:
blindfaith :
November 7th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Admit it. We are all overpaid and the eagle is coming home to roost and it won’t be pretty unless we all understand we are a country and we need to protect everybody in this country. Or, we will wind up outsourcing everything because the world will out work US.
Western companies managed to make their balance sheets look good by outsourcing jobs and manufacturing to low-cost countries; while western POLITICIANS managed to make voters feel good by getting them to believe that they were increasing their purchasing power.
This happened through a fall in the price of consumer goods, due to manufacturing abroad. Unfortunately, what looked like a win-win, is turning into a double whammy.
A country without manufacturing is nothing – somehow we managed to delude ourselves into thinking that the services industries were a viable substitute.
James Dyson (of the Dyson vacuum) has been screaming himself hoarse for years pointing this out. He takes no pleasure in being proven right.
A scythe will now cut through western job markets, and it will be ugly to beyond belief.
The gentle right side of centre is the natural state of governing parties because, quite frankly, that’s where the balance between equitable treatment of the populace and economic reality sits.
Gentle?!?!?! The Patriot Act, the warrantless tapping of basically every body’s electronic communication, The blurring of the line between the police and military the cameras on every street corner, the war on drugs and on Terror, the destruction of currency, the millions spent on pointless weaponry and the long, long list of laws designed to separate citizens from having some sort of control over their ‘servant’. economic reality?, equitable treatment?
wait, Obama is anti-potato chip? I voted for the wrong guy! argh.
A country without manufacturing is nothing – somehow we managed to delude ourselves into thinking that the services industries were a viable substitute.
James Dyson (of the Dyson vacuum) has been screaming himself hoarse for years pointing this out. He takes no pleasure in being proven right.
A scythe will now cut through western job markets, and it will be ugly to beyond belief.
When they came for the shoe industry, I didn’t care, I wasn’t a shoemaker.
When they came for the apparel industry, I didn’t care, I didn’t make apparel.
When they came for the shipbuilding industry, I didn’t care, I wasn’t a shipbuilder.
When they came for the consumer electronics industry, I didn’t care, I didn’t make electronics.
When they came for the machine tools, I didn’t care, I didn’t work for Bridgeport or Cincinnati Milicron.
When they came for the domestic auto industry, there was nobody left to care.
While it’s true that the Big 3 have been mismanaged, can you say the same about all the other US industries that have been allowed to wither?
GM “The Mark of Excellence”
is now
GM “The Mark of Incompetence”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incompetence
When they came for the domestic auto industry, there was nobody left to care.
Nobody “came” for the domestic auto companies. They destroyed themselves.
Your efforts to compare the demise of Detroit to the Holocaust trivializes the Holocaust and is an insult to the millions murdered by the Nazis. Unlike Detroit, the Jews didn’t purposely commit suicide, they were murdered.
Cicero, you’re totally right! I was shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when Osama bin BarackHussein started each of his rallies with a communist loyalty pledge! Then, when he promised to wrest industry from the hands of the capitalist pigs and place it in the hands of the proletariat, why, I nearly fell out of my chair!
You’re right, Obama is a big-time Marxist, as his statements and actions have proven. I admit that I rather like his pledge to keep lazy people from having to work and forcing the rich to slave in the fields, as I am a bit lazy myself. Golly gosh, I hope one of the two cars he allows to travel our roads is a Malibu, I may want to apply to Obama’s proposed Ministry of Population to allow my wife and I to have a kid and that looks like a good family car.
The Patriot Act, the warrantless tapping of basically every body’s electronic communication,
No hyperbole here, no not at all. Cite a single American citizen whose domestic communication was monitored. OTOH, I’m rather certain you aren’t concerned over the thuggish behavior of the Obama campaign and its supporters. It wasn’t Republican government officials who violated Joe The Plumber’s privacy by rummaging through his gov’t records.
The blurring of the line between the police and military the cameras on every street corner, the war on drugs and on Terror,
Police departments and their unions support Democrats. It’s not conservatives/libertarians who install red light and speeding cameras.
the millions spent on pointless weaponry
My daughter just enlisted in the US Navy. I kinda like the idea of better weapons that keep her and all of us safer. Russia just announced they are deploying missiles to the borders of our [now] allies in eastern Europe. Missile defense systems are pointless how?
Blindfaith
“When somebody looks over and says your over paid for what you are doing. The over paid is everybody in the US. Everybody in the world wants to live our lifestyle. They would work 18 hours a day for their entire life to support their children for our lifestyle.”
I was watching something on young people in Dubai. Out of college they’re expected to make somewhere around $180,000 U.S. So there are some countries a bit better off than us in terms of income. In fact per capita income the U.S. is 12th behind Luxemberg, Norway, Qatar,Iceland, Ireland, Switzerland Sweden and others.
Gary Numan-
correction if I may
GM “The Mark of Excrement”
Has been for a long time.
Cicero und Hippo
Thanks for some grins.
Bunter
I’d rather see a bailout than see one of them go under, see hundreds of thousands of people out of work, and a potential new Great Depression on our hands.
I think if the government does anything it should be to help broker a C11 filing for GM (or whichever) that would allow a reorganization while somehow underwriting warranty protection so that consumers can have some confidence in buying the products.
I’m no expert, so I don’t know how they would manage this, but RF is absolutely correct that without C11 the ship is sunk.
On the other hand, Obama has 4 years before he needs the unions again- if you’re going to screw them, best to do it early and hope for a short memory. They just need enough votes to let Dems from rust-belt states cover their asses.
I think one of the most important items a CH11 will do is finally put management accountable and get rid of the idiots running these companies into the ground. I’m also hoping that if Ford goes CH11 it will finally sever the unfair voting rights the silver spooners have had control over. Ford is a public company and needs to be run as such – not a pseudo family owned company with one of the most checkered safety recall problems in history.
Gentle?!?!?!
By American standards. I think they’re jack-booted thugs, but most people here think I’m a scythe-tatooed pinko, so fair’s fair.
I know it’s hard to believe, but Bush did drift leftwards as his administration progressed. The Bush administration of 2002 would never, ever have made the kind of compromises to reality that the current version (2007/8) did. Now, a left-leaning Bush administration is still a good deal to the right, but relativity is important to consider.
A country without manufacturing is nothing – somehow we managed to delude ourselves into thinking that the services industries were a viable substitute.
James Dyson (of the Dyson vacuum) has been screaming himself hoarse for years pointing this out. He takes no pleasure in being proven right.
A scythe will now cut through western job markets, and it will be ugly to beyond belief.
I beg to differ. If you found a (insert dream car of choice) on the side of the road for nothing money you’d think you have a bargain. So why is so bad for companies to build stuff in China (Or anywhere else for that matter) if they can build it better or more reliably or whatever.
If a company is in Laredo why shouldn’t be able hire Mexicans from Neovo Larado instead of Detroit.
In free market economics, the Consumer is king and demands a better, cheaper, reliable, easier to use product. Yes this will shrink western pay scales because over time, the price of everything drops. An Indian accountant, the Hungarian Dentist or the Brazilian lawyers disadvantage in the past was access to markets, capital and Information. Now that has all changed thanks to the Internet, amongst other things so why should an American get a higher fee for doing the same job.
And as for Mr Dyson I would rather have dust bunnies than pay a thousand bucks for a mere Vacuum Cleaner.
I’d rather see a bailout than see one of them go under, see hundreds of thousands of people out of work, and a potential new Great Depression on our hands.
To reiterate what’s already been said, a bailout would not prevent the loss of numerous jobs anyway.
psarhjinian
I see your point however left or right, you’re still left facing the State.
On the other hand, Obama has 4 years before he needs the unions again- if you’re going to screw them, best to do it early and hope for a short memory. They just need enough votes to let Dems from rust-belt states cover their asses.
This is an important point. People fail to understand that, in a two-party state, you can gleefully move to the centre of the spectrum without risk of driving your extreme wing to the other side.
Obama doesn’t need to pander to college Marxists, trade unionists or LGBT groups because there’s no way in hell these people would ever vote Republican. McCain doesn’t need to pander to NRA members, Libertarians or the religious right for the same reason: they’ll never vote Democrat. Both can (and did) spend their time wooing centrist votes, and Obama will continue to do so whilst in office.
Where Obama won out was dynamism: he mobilized more formerly-disaffected voters (people who stayed away from Gore and Kerry because they didn’t care enough to vote) than McCain did. WBush did the same in his election wins: he got more Republicans out to vote, largely by leveraging outrage at Clinton, then by playing the security card.
There’s a risk in that the kind of people who comprise the trade unionist or minority votes can be socially conservative, or that Libertarians can be awfully unreponsive to militarism, but by and large they stick to their respective camps. And this is why you won’t see Obama chase the extreme left at the expense of the centre.
HEATHROI ~
I would argue that a Dyson is the best vacuum ever made…If only GM made as good and reliable a product! Yes, it’s pricier – but not a thousand dollars…when was the last time you could say your car cost you approximately $0.20/day (have had my Dyson for five years and paid $400 for it) – and you were thrilled with its performance every time!? Just a little levity in these bleak times…
If we are going to be wasting tax dollars…
Force GM & Ford to file chapter 11. Let them emerge free of the Fords, Red-Ink Rick, and crippling debt to fight another day.
Roll the underfunded pensions under the PBGC. The union workers will get some benefits, but not as rich as they had hoped.
Use the tax dollars to fund the PBGC.
Assess a penalty tax on the new Ford/GM products to pay back the money we had to pay to cover their pension obligations. Maybe not… but at least consider it.
Paying GM/Ford to make money loosing cars no one wants just to keep people working is the dumbest idea ever.
For what it is worth here is my guess as to what will happen: all three go Ch. 11 (if any one does the others will be forced to do so as they will all need to junk the union contracts) and then the US Government (aka you and I) will act as DIP lender. That way contracts can be canceled and other costs addressed and the companies could perhaps have some chance of surviving long term. In the process the Government will end up with a substantial stake in all three and, by the way, the Ford family will no longer control Ford.
This makes me wonder what car companies will come rushing in to fill the void…Any ideas?
Either way you look at it, those jobs we worry about are going to be lost unless it is profitable for the jobs to exist at all. That’s the difference between a government job and a private-sector job. Only other way is perpetual tax-subsidization of a whole industry. Think Amtrak or the Post Office. There is no way to patch up those operations, especially given the quality of management entrenched there. Its like the old Soviet Union. The entrenched interests and their goal to maintain that status is what has to go. No amount of money can rectify that.
So without the fundamental shift in operations that would have to happen with these companies via bankruptcy re-orgs and so forth, the jobs are lost. Going into debt ever-more to maintain the fiction is pointless, you cannot stave off the day of reckoning forever. As far as American workers competitiveness is concerned, we are fine. Look at all the transplant factories and I don’t see problems like this.
Industries in this country that are not mired in the cultural straight-jacket of union vs. management, us vs. them, etc. – perverse social heirlooms of the early 20th century – are just fine in this country. Google works, so does Intel. Toyota runs a pretty tight ship here in the states for that matter. Look at any successful steel company in the States (there are actually quite a few) like Nova American or Geneva Steel and you see the same contradictions between them and old-school US Steel, for instance.
here’s what’s going to happen:
1) feds will come up with some sort of bailout for “retooling,” etc. of gm, ford, chrysler.
2) chrysler & gm will go c11. jeep, chevy, gmc and maybe a few other divisions will survive. stockholders & the unions get screwed.
3) a downsized ford will squeak through with bailout money, labor concessions and improved product lineup.
“OTOH, I’m rather certain you aren’t concerned over the thuggish behavior of the Obama campaign and its supporters. It wasn’t Republican government officials who violated Joe The Plumber’s privacy by rummaging through his gov’t records.”
No, but it was McCain supporters who screamed, “Kill him!” and, “Traitor!” when Obama was mentioned at McCain rallies last month.
Question for the B&B – if GM (and/or Ford) files for C11 – what happens to their overseas operations? (Ignore Chrysler – their overseas division is virtually non existent).
In Europe, GM is also not doing too well, but Ford seems to be holding it’s own at least in terms of market share (in a market dropping 20% Oct vs last Oct), and even made a profit in Q3.
Your efforts to compare the demise of Detroit to the Holocaust trivializes the Holocaust and is an insult to the millions murdered by the Nazis. Unlike Detroit, the Jews didn’t purposely commit suicide, they were murdered.
Actually, the Jews of Europe ignored the warning signs in the 1930s. It was R’ Chaim of Volozhin, in his book, Nefesh HaChaim (The Living Soul), who said that Titus and Nebuchadnezer could not have done what they did (destroyed Jerusalem) if the Jews had acted appropriately. Ze’ev Jabotinsky warned European Jews in the 30s, crying “es brent”, it’s burning. Jews have a historical blindness to the malevolent intent of those who wish us less than well. Look at all the liberal Jewish supporters of Obama defending Rashid Khalidi. Perhaps not realizing that the exterminationist Jew-hatred of the Nazis was qualitatively different than prior European Jew-hatred and thinking that the storm would pass, many Jewish leaders discouraged their followers from emigrating, and then it was too late. Do I insult the memory of the Jewish victims of the Nazis if I recognize failures of Jewish leadership in the 1930s?
While the Germans and their collaborators in Europe bear the guilt, as a Jew I wish that Jewish leaders in the 1930s had better vision. It doesn’t minimize German guilt for me to wish that Jewish leaders had acted more prudently.
FWIW, I’m hardly the first person to paraphrase Martin Niemöller’s comment and apply it to something other than the rise of the Third Reich. It’s been paraphrased so many times that it’s almost a cliche. His message is powerful and is frequently paraphrased because it transcends the specific case of the Shoah. Pastor Niemöller’s comments were less about the Holocaust specifically than they were about how focusing on narrow selfish interests prevents recognizing a greater danger to the whole of society. Likewise, most Americans ignored the gutting of our manufacturing base because they were not directly affected. The collapse of the domestic auto industry will be harder to ignore.
If you’re trying to seize the high moral ground with your indignation, you’re welcome to do so, but while I’m not a survivor I do have some standing to discuss the Holocaust. The Germans exterminated fully 1/4 of my extended family, wiping out my paternal grandfather’s entire family, the Smolinskys, may God avenge their blood, and big chunks of my grandmother’s family as well. I have close friends who are Holocaust survivors and children of survivors and I often volunteer serving the hot meals to seniors at the Jewish Community Center, many of whom are survivors.
I have a small machine embroidery shop and it so happens that a customer who is an ordained orthodox rabbi and regional director of NCSY, an orthodox Jewish youth organization, just stopped by to drop off his son’s tefillin bag to be embroidered with his Hebrew name prior to his bar mitzvah. He agreed that one should never trivialize the crime of the Holocaust, and said that my paraphrasing of the good pastor’s remarks were no such trivialization.
It’s not conservatives/libertarians who install red light and speeding cameras.
Oh, no, they just suspend habeas corpus and have you deported to a nation that hasn’t signed the Geneva Convention. It’s quicker, cheaper and easier to outsource, donchaknow?
Just ask Maher Arar.
In all seriousness, let’s try and drop the partisan sniping. It was tiring when it was left-wingers claiming Bush was going to refine people into biodiesel, it’s tiring now that we’ve got the descendent right ringing the bells of doom about how Obama’s going to replace the stars on the American flag with sickles.
And it detracts from the real problem: that we stand a good chance of seeing thousands of jobs vanish as the economy teeters on the brink.
TreyV :
November 7th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
No, but it was McCain supporters who screamed, “Kill him!” and, “Traitor!” when Obama was mentioned at McCain rallies last month.
If you get your information from DailyKos and the Huffington Post, you’d think so. Try a newspaper instead.
psarhjinian
I see your point however left or right, you’re still left facing the State.
Bozoer
you can’t cite anybody in particular because everybodys communucations are sucked up and if you say well I haven’t done anything wrong, well how do you know? and money spent on weapons is a waste if they sit round for years doing nothing they are a waste and if they are fired same.
amd the missile defense system…where does one start.
“let’s try and drop the partisan sniping”
My, what a timely request. What’s up, isn’t it fun anymore? Or is the messiah beyond criticism? (I’m already aware he’s beyond satire, according to the professional comedians.)
I plan on giving zerobama the same respect people like you gave Bush when he was in office.
A bunch of Pontiacs and Chevys are made in Korea, most of the Chryslers are made in Canada and Dysons are made in Malasia. The CEO of Honda isn’t paid $40 a minute. Pretty much every business today is international and eventually must abide by the global rules of econ 101. Some smart people set up C11 as a way to enable enterprises to adapt to this reality when their leaders lack the skill or foresight to accomplish it on their own. I would much rather see my tax money used to help any surviving automotive entities, post-bankruptcy, get back on their feet than to see the billions today go up the current corporate noses.
No, but it was McCain supporters who screamed, “Kill him!” and, “Traitor!” when Obama was mentioned at McCain rallies last month.
More lies from the Obaministry of Information. The Secret Service fully investigated the claims and could find nobody other than the one reporter who heard “kill him” (though others did hear someone say “tell ’em”). The reporter could not give any identifying information about the supposed screamer.
The Secret Service has more credibility than just another in the tank for Obama reporter.
But pray tell, did you get so upset when novelists and scriptwriters fantasized about the assassination of GWB?
BTW, the last time I looked, it’s a right under the First Amendment to call anyone’s actions traitorous. If Obama doesn’t like getting called a traitor, he’s a lawyer and can sue if the remarks are truly libelous.
The Germans exterminated fully 1/4 of my extended family, wiping out my paternal grandfather’s entire family
Then you really ought to know better than to violate Godwin’s Law in the fashion that you have. That’s particularly true given that General Motors and Ford both profited from their sales of equipment to the Nazis.
Detroit’s demise is due to its poor products, service and management. Jackbooted thugs didn’t do it to them, they did it to themselves, and they have only themselves to blame.
TreyV :
“OTOH, I’m rather certain you aren’t concerned over the thuggish behavior of the Obama campaign and its supporters. It wasn’t Republican government officials who violated Joe The Plumber’s privacy by rummaging through his gov’t records.”
No, but it was McCain supporters who screamed, “Kill him!” and, “Traitor!” when Obama was mentioned at McCain rallies last month.
——
Well Trey, the people who do this sort of thing are no different than the folks at a ball game who yel “kill the ump”. You think they really mean it? And do they have the power to go thru with it if they did? I don’t condone it, but I don’t think of it as real threat. Even if it’s “just” a ball game. (I have been known to tell the ump or ref to get his vision checked though). And as has been stated the Secret Service has looked into this.
But – the folks that invaded Joe the Plumbers privacy were government and campaign officials. Think about that. Just like Chucky Schumer’s campaign got a hold of Michael Steeles credit report looking for dirt in the 2006 campaign. And may I add that Steele in an African American. And let’s not forget the Clinton whithouse “FBI Filegate”. I don’t about you but I see a pattern.
But at least Obama didn’t have someone shoot at his campaign bus:
http://obamawho.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/obama-supporters-engaging-in-violence-and-threats/
And of course the media was selectively at its finest in only reporting about threats to THE ONE.
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/15/the-rage-thats-not-on-your-front-page/
“Stein X Leikanger wrote:
What is GM making that the world needs?”
Jobs for mechanics, service departments, and aftermarket replacement parts stores.
Do you think places like NAPA and Autozone could stay in business if everyone drove Toyotas and Hondas ?.
Think of how many independent mechanics put their kids through college just from blown headgaskets on Quad-4’s alone !.
Then you really ought to know better than to violate Godwin’s Law in the fashion that you have.
I made no mention of or comparison to Nazis or Hitler. I just paraphrased a famous quote from a religious leader about conflicts between selfish interests and the commonwealth.
Detroit’s demise is due to its poor products, service and management. Jackbooted thugs didn’t do it to them, they did it to themselves, and they have only themselves to blame.
So, the demise of the American shoe industry, apparel industry, consumer electronics industry, textile industry, machine tool industry, and other elements of the US manufacturing base was all due to poor products, service and management? Were all those industries run by knaves and staffed by thieves?
YEAH! I come to TTAC each day to piss all over Obama!
Or maybe all over Republicans! It doesn’t matter, as I am forwarding the national discussion with asinine, blinders-on partisan sniping. Thank goodness there are so many car forums where we can talk about what a communist our new president is and what a nazi our outgoing president was.
Good work, everybody, keep the intelligent conversation going!
On another note, RF, can we have, like, a separate thread line so all the hardline republican and democrat dopes can sound off at each other without interrupting the car talk?
So, the demise of the American shoe industry, apparel industry, consumer electronics industry, textile industry, machine tool industry, and other elements of the US manufacturing base was all due to poor products, service and management? Were all those industries run by knaves and staffed by thieves?
Nope their consumers made alternative arrangements.
I feel your frustration, kazoomaloo, but the editorial does open up a left/right dem/rep argument, although name calling shouldn’t be part of that. I for one just want a 2-week vacation from of all things political after this… whole friggin’ year (other than my opinion, that is).
Sure, I want to protect jobs. But I also want to protect my tax money. So… screw it.
Bailout fatigue has to enter the picture sometime soon, whether or not the bailout is justified. (Warning, following is a political/personal statement): Maybe it’ll jump start people into realizing our current 10 trillion or so debt is nothing compared to the 50-70+ trillion in entitlement outlays coming in less than 2 decades. Democrat or Republican, whomever gets serious about this issue has a supporter in me. In the meantime, part of my 10-year-plan involves securing a second citizenship in a low-debt nation (which apparently is easier said than done unless you have $$$). Our nation has a fine history of mortgaging its future with little consequence, but it’s coming home to roost like a 10 ton heavy thing.
I keep going back to my nearby Pontiac dealer to see if I can get a decent price on a leftover 07 Solstice GPX they’ve had for a long time. I figure it will be a collectable or at least an interesting curiosity in 20 years.
It’s certainly an interesting mess we have here. Realistically, it doesn’t matter what the government or GM does, nobody wants their cars and that is only going to get worse.
Usta Bee :
November 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
“Stein X Leikanger wrote:
What is GM making that the world needs?”
Jobs for mechanics, service departments, and aftermarket replacement parts stores.
Do you think places like NAPA and Autozone could stay in business if everyone drove Toyotas and Hondas ?.
Think of how many independent mechanics put their kids through college just from blown headgaskets on Quad-4’s alone !.
I’m sorry for their jobs, too. My point being that we won’t really miss any of GM’s present lineup of cars if they were suddenly to disappear from the market tomorrow, they’re that badly manufactured, and are generations behind the leading models in each category.
C11 and a serious shake-up may change that, but we don’t know until about eight years down the road.
A hundred years ago, most people worked in agriculture. they were farmers. Fifty years ago, most people worked in factories. Now, most people work in either the white collar sector, or in the service sector. Both farmers and factory workers is a dying breed. But the people didn’t die, they just changed their occupation. the point is, just because the american domestic car production is going down, it isn’t the end of the world. It doesn’t mean $250 billion less tax revenue for the government. Those people will eventually find somwething else to do with their lifes, and they will eventually pay tax again. It isn’t the end of the world, just the end of industrialism, and the change to the information society.
Latest rumor in Europe: Saab becoming Chinese …
Fun with your brands, brought to you by GM!
David Thomas :
In fact per capita income the U.S. is 12th behind Luxemberg, Norway, Qatar,Iceland, Ireland, Switzerland Sweden and others.
Umm, I would scratch Iceland off that list. The country is bankrupt, the Icelandic Krona has been devalued, the country has no foreign currency (outside of loans). 18% interest rates. There was a run on shops stocking vegetables, pasta and bread as all are imported. Exporters to Iceland no longer wish to send goods to people who pay in worthless paper. Only thing Iceland can export now is fish, aluminium, and Bjork.
The US car industry is headed for bankruptcy. Millions of workers are about to discover what it’s like to be frozen over like Iceland.
One of the earliest observations of internet posting is that once Hitler and Nazis are dragged into discussion around a topic that has nothing to do with Hitler and Nazis, all valuable discourse is effectively dead together with the thread itself.
Just saying.
@ronin
The only possible exception being sites such as http://forum.axishistory.com/
The initial poster, who started the contentious diatribe by reframing the well-known “They came for …” — has a point, though. Precisely because we didn’t see the danger of exporting jobs, and because this happened piecemeal, we didn’t see the full implications until it was too late.
But the internet is for huffing and puffing, not really for any sensible discussion. Look at the GMDW-series, check out the comments there, as RF points out the obvious, and people tell him what a loon he is …
At any rate – which of GM’s present models is it worth to keep alive, because it is better than the competition?
AND – is it true that the GM minus was corrected from 2.4 billion to 4.2 billion within eight hours of the first announcement?
Are they complete loons?
I WAS a shipbuilder until that went away over 20 yrs ago. It was more than 6 yrs until I was making the same or more money in the telephone business. 11 yrs later it was deja vu all over again. Here’s hoping I ve found a recession proof job in the security system business. It aint easy finding work once you get past 40 yrs old, and I’m closing in on 60. I always dismissed age-ism until I was faced with it.
I have spent my entire working life dealing with the de-industrialization of the US. Watching foreign made goods replace domestic goods on the shelves.
Moving ones and zeros doesnt pay as much as making stuff used to. Sure the imports cost less, but part time cube rats , hamburgerflippers, grocery baggers, etc can’t pay for them easily, no matter how cheap they are.
The greed heads running the show have forgotten a basic tenet proven by Henry Ford. Consumer goods have to sell, the best way to ensure sales is to pay your workers enough to buy them.
Thank you, Bozoer Rebbe for your informed and temperate remarks.
Now, back to cars — another poster mentioned head gasket problems with GM Quad 4 engines. Those, too? What is it with Detroit and head gaskets? Seriously, why did certain engines (such as early Ford 3.8 V6’s) become notorious for head gasket failure? Isn’t head gasket technology pretty well known? Or does Detroit turn out blocks and heads with poorly milled surfaces? Or what? I’m really curious about this strange failing.
I may not be RF but I am a long-term contributor to this site.
Some of the comments here are simply not worth the merit of a response. The political name calling is something that you can do in your own time at a place that will stoke that insecure ego. If you really believe that politicians are going to solve the problems in the American economy, then I’ve got some wonderful farmland in Zimbabwe that I would love to sell you.
As it pertains to Chapter 11, I don’t believe it will happen. I’ve said repeatedly that Congress will provide a financial loan to GM and Ford so that they can get their ship in order. The real questions for me at least are…
1) Will they get rid of upper management and the BOD?
I believe Ford’s leaders are doing a pretty good job, for the most part. GM’s brass is obviously tarnished beyond belief. They need to go. Congress is more than likely clueless and chances are the hired lobbyists will keep them that way.
2) Will they enact new laws and regulations that can make this the equivalent of a Chapter 11?
The restructuring of the operations are in dire need at this point. But a C11 filing would eliminate these manufacturers from the radars of a lot of potential buyers. If there is one positive that can come of this, it would be the ability to perform the activities of a chapter 11 without the declaration of one. I do see some progress made here.
3) Will the UAW be allowed to keep pension and medical benefits at anywhere near current levels?
I believe there would be massive anger over allowing the pensioners to receive benefits that are in essence paid by the taxpayer. But then again maybe the ivory castles of DC and the media machine will obscure the economics involved… a la Iraq and the current fiscal crisis. Our citizens often forgo the math in order to opt for a near term ‘feel good’ agreement.
In either case, it would be helpful if GM and Ford could get wages and benefits down to the transplant levels. I’m not holding my breath on that one.
4) Will the Detroit manufacturers be allowed to enact measures that reduce the dealer network, divisions, and overall fiefdom mentality of their enterprises?
GM in particular will need to be able to tear down and build up their operations at the same time. At least half their car divisions no longer serve a useful purpose in the marketplace. This also goes for a lot of their internal operations as well. Ford needs to rid itself of Lincoln, Mercury and Volvo. The later now has sales that are about as strong as Suzuki with twice the number of models.
5) Will the Feds ever consider our trade policies given the horrendous record of some of our trading partners?
The South Korean government and their auto industry have enacted protectionist measures that would make Fidel Castro proud. Something should be done about it. But like virtually everything mentioned above, I doubt that would ever happen.
Conclusion: Chrysler will be sold piecemeal. I can see the minivan going to VW, trucks to Nissan, Jeep to Hyundai, cars to china (along with the dealer and distribution network), and Auburn hills to perhaps Nissan, VW or Mitsubishi.
GM would require a miracle at this point, or perhaps a break-up that would free the stronger portions from many of the current parasitic influences. Chevy and Cadillac are the only brands that have any substantial equity in the marketplace.
Ford obviously needs money, time, and that chick who used to sell Mercurys. Ford should simply be selling Fords. I really don’t see any of their other divisions making it.
I respect the fact that the African-American community is proud to see such an intelligent and gifted black man like Barack Obama become leader of this country, but in the end, he’s just another DLC Corporate Democrat.
It reminded me of that swift hand gesture McCain made when the crowd started booing Obama’s name during his concession speech. Its getting harder and harder for the leaders of both of these Big Business parties to tolerate the people they have to pander to every 4 years in order to stay in power.
Throughout the postwar era, American politicians have been tasked by Wall Street and Big Business with maintaining political stability in this country because that’s whats good for business. Now that American Capitalism stands on the precipice, that’s becoming harder and harder to do. We accuse politicians of being radical not because they are, but because WE are. Americans believe in decisive action and we feel like with the economy on the verge of collapse, decisive action is necessary.
I’m sure you might think I sound conspiratorial, but if by conspiratorial you mean blatantly obvious, you’d be right
@PCH101
+1