There is a whole lotta bailout going on. More and more people are bailing on lending the Detroit dunces a helping hand. Last to bail: CNN founder Ted Turner. He went on NBC’s Meet The Press and said to Brokaw: “I saw it coming years ago that Detroit was headed for a crash, and it’s amazing to me that they didn’t see it either.” Ted’s recommendation: “Let them go bankrupt and get Toyota to buy them out.” As if they would. The one who stands firm by the side of the bail bondsmen is United Auto Workers (UAW) boss Ron Gettelfinger. The AP (via MSNBC) reports that Big Ron says the UAW would be “willing to consider more concessions on wages and benefits” to secure a federal bailout. But then again, not so much. “Based on the changes we’ve made to our contracts, we are competitive already.” By the same token (or a different one, I’m not exactly sure), Gettelfinger told CNN that $70-an-hour UAW wages were a “myth.” And Chrysler, Ford and GM should tell Congress they’ll limit corporate pay, bonuses and severance packages in return for bailout bucks. In other words, some pigs are more equal than others.
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Ted is just saying who has won… his environmental leftists.
Is the UAW the cause of the instant crisis in the automobile industry, and the economy as a whole?
No. Witness the non-UAW built vehicles stacking up at the ports at Long Beach and elsewhere.
Yes, the domestics are looking for a government loan, but that is because they were losing market share before the credit crunch/economic crises, and were in worse shape to begin with. (One can argue the UAW was a part of the problem, or one can agrue that the UAW built, to spec, vehicles designed by the domestics that no one wanted to buy.)
I wouldn’t call the UAW, nor necessarily all of the domestic automakers’ management, “pigs.” I think I would start with the Wall Street wankers who drove us into this ditch to begin with.
As far as I’m concerned there is no free market. There is only market manipulation by RICH people to benefit a FEW RICH PEOPLE.
The Japanese pay off who they have to pay off.
The Chinese pay off who they have to pay off.
south Korea pays off who they have to pay off.
Meanwhile, American products are taxed so high in those countries, our stuff actually sits on their docks because its unnafordable by regular people.
WE NEED PROTECTIONISM.
we need a Congress that isn’t in the pocket of Lobbyists or big Oil.
As far as I’m concerned the tables are rigged and we can’t win, especially if we are greedy and stupid. THE UAW didn’t cause the subprime crisis. The Republican congress did over the past 10 years – they set the stage.
I already know GM, Ford and chrysler are getting bailed out. That’s why I’m snapping up their shares at these current lows and when they get back on their feet and their shares go up i’m selling.
@Airhen: “Ted is just saying who has won… his environmental leftists.”
Every change is a business opportunity. Small, fuel efficient cars are selling well. GM and their incompetent, grossly overpaid executives could not see the obvious coming. They still don’t. They are as blind as moles. I visited the San Francisco Auto Show yesterday. GM is displaying all of their old models (nothing looks even refreshed), all with huge banners “E85”. They actually think people are scrambling to buy E85 vehicles. This is *pathetic*. There was barely anyone looking. Fire the morons and sue them for repayment of the obscene bonuses they collected for running the company into the ground.
I was a die hard buy American car guy. Then I spend 4 years in Detroit dealing with the car companies and now I drive a Honda….
Flashpoint :
Meanwhile, American products are taxed so high in those countries, our stuff actually sits on their docks because its unnafordable by regular people.
I used to live in Japan. Our vehicles are for the most part unsuitable to drive there. A Buick LaCrosse on the roads there would be like driving a Peterbuilt here. Doable but not easy.
China and South Korea not only have this problem, American cars, even without tax, would cost triple the locally produced products.
I agree with Flashpoint. In Japan, China, Phlippines, India and others, the import tax into those countries are back-breaking. Other items over-looked drive the US value down when importing…many of the same countries we call our friends, allies and trading partners have the workers health benefits and retirement covered by the respective governments….hardly seems like a level playing field.
“the days of fossil fuel are over”
Wha??? I’m actually shocked that such an intelligent guy would make such a knee jerk comment. He’s obviously been drinking the Hollywood kool-aid. I think I understand what Teddy’s getting at, but as far as I’m aware, no automaker builds any mass produced vehicle that runs without fossil fuel…. including hybrids. Though I do agree with him that it’s inexcusable that the big 2.5 haven’t been able to ever build a proper small car for sale in North America. They seem to be able to do it well on other continents.
In other words, some pigs are more equal than others.
Here’s a list of the fattest swine around:
Bank of America Corporation $15,000,000,000
Bank of New York Mellon Corporation $3,000,000,000
Citigroup Inc. $45,000,000,000
The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc. $10,000,000,000
JPMorgan Chase & Co. $25,000,000,000
Morgan Stanley $10,000,000,000
State Street Corporation $2,000,000,000
Wells Fargo & Company $25,000,000,000
Merrill Lynch & Co., Inc. $10,000,000,000
Northern Trust Corporation $1,576,000,000
SunTrust Banks, Inc. $3,500,000,000
BB&T Corp. $3,133,640,000
Comerica Inc. $2,250,000,000
Regions Financial Corp. $3,500,000,000
Capital One Financial Corporation $3,555,199,000
Huntington Bancshares $1,398,071,000
KeyCorp Cleveland OH $2,500,000,000
Zions Bancorporation $1,400,000,000
Marshall & Ilsley Corporation $1,715,000,000
U.S. Bancorp $6,599,000,000
AIG $40,000,000,000
NOTES:
1. This is not a complete list, just the banks that have received at least $1 billion from the TARP.
2. Not a single bank on the TARP list is headquartered in Michigan, but please, tell us again how greedy and incompetent folks in Detroit are.
There is a whole lot of shucking and jiving over UAW burdened labor rates. If Mr Gettlefinger says $70 is a myth, what is his number? The UAW wants to parse the issue to death. If the average GM worker earns $28 per hour before benefits, a rough rule of thumb is X2 to include burden. Still isn’t $70 per hour but the union rode high past 40 years so the $70 may be reasonable considering accumulated legacy benefits owed to retired workers. The whole lot of Detroit execs should go on a bonus slimfast diet not because Congress says so but because they are committed to saving their company and as an example to the blue collar worker. Hitting blue collar then porking bonus won’t work.
I’m not sure that we need protectionism. I’d settle for our trading ‘partners’ (kinda hard to call them partners when all the trade is in one direction) to open up their markets to those things that we can make better and cheaper than they can.
Let’s start with selling US rice in Japan.
BTW, Ted Turner is an idiot. He’s had maybe one or two good ideas in his life. He made a ton of money from cable tv and has been spouting nonsense ever since.
I’d love to see him or Mark Cuban try to get a small business off the ground with $10,000 worth of working capital, and no fair using any of their existing contacts.
Wow.
At any rate, I learned while becoming a pilot that almost no plane wreck has a single cause. I now see this same phenomenon everywhere. Maybe I am off base a little, but I am sure about one thing – Any attempt to turn multiple wrongs into an excuse for any single or group of wrongs still won’t fly.
Had Detroit’s problem only been management, government, the UAW, or other economic players then the 2.8 would likely still be dragging along. Instead, all of those things failed them at once.
Now the only question is not whether the plane will arrive on the ground in an unplanned manner, but how many people will walk away.
Universal Healthcare is what America really needs. It would help take alot of pressure off of these companies so that they don’t have to choose between paying health benefits and laying off workers.
No choice at all.
China is just getting their automotive indutry started and soon, they’ll be at Hyundai’s level (Genesis?). America is fighting to survive with just Japan, Germany and Korea on the table. Once China starts using SLAVE LABOR to build cars, GM, Ford and Chrysler are DEAD overseas. The Chinese can put together the same shit for PEANUTS.
Obama needs to pass executive orders to make the American companies focus on energy efficiency – while rebuilding our electric infrstructure to accomodate those vehicles.
Obama should pass legislation that tells Asia if their cars don’t meet our goals THEN THEY DON’T GET SOLD IN AMERICA. 100mpg or Electric powered.
Thing that worries me is how many shady trade deals have been made behind our backs to pay off the Asians.
Flashpoint,
It’s highly unlikely that the Chinese will be able to get an edge on cheap labor. A modern car is actually cheaper to build with robots than with people, and comes out a lot better – less defects, better fit&finish, and so on.
You need a whole lot of expertise to design and engineer not only the world-class cars (which Chinese already have trouble with), but also the automated factories and so on. This is where the “joint ventures” come in – we’re pretty much giving away our education and experience advantage over the course of a couple decades or so. Which means that Chinese will be the new Chevy real, real soon.
Seems like US is getting what it deserves. Instead of using our (temporary) ability to exploit other nations to invest in ourselves as a nation, we decided to spend our college fund on drink. How quintessentially American.
Landcrusher:
I like your analogy.
Similarly, as an engineer, I see every system as an assembly of many parts working together and a failure is not always due to one flaw in the design.
It seems like this problem with the D2.? may be a microcosm of what is wrong with our country as a whole. Are we willing to accept that everything we do is flawed and needs fixing? I don’t think so.
Ted Turner also said the same thing about Chrysler’s loan nearly 3 decades ago.
Ted Turner is a lunatic. Married Jane Fonda. Nuff said.
alex_rashev,
The Chinese government forces joint-ventures. 100% foreign direct investment is not allowed in China. If you want to do business in China, you must have a local partner.
I happen to think that it’s a stupid and self-defeating policy, that India which allows 100% FDI is better situated for the long run. The JVs cripple the local partner, making them dependent on the foreign firm for technology and other value added stuff you mentioned. Allowing 100% FDI forces the local companies to compete. I think that’s why the Nano came from an indigenous Indian company, not a transplant.
Speaking of India, we should keep the victims of the Mumbai terror attacks, and their families, in our prayers. One of the doctors involved with identifying remains said that the jihadis tortured their hostages in a manner that left him shaken – and with 4,000 terror victims over the past few years in India, he’s seen a lot of gore.
It seems like this problem with the D2.? may be a microcosm of what is wrong with our country as a whole. Are we willing to accept that everything we do is flawed and needs fixing? I don’t think so.
Agreed. And all those now defunct industries, shoes, textiles, steel, apparel, steel, toys, consumer electronics. etc. give mute testimony to our shortsightedness. But hey, did you see how cheap those LG plasma screens are?
UAW = money for nothing, of course they defend the gravy train to the end.
Hello!!
Even though I’m in the industry, there are a lot of things I dont understand about some of the posts, to wit:
1)Let’s say if prices were equal, would the Japanese buy our cars?? All the comments about a “level playing field”..is this some sort of a game, and if so, who makes the rules, and whoever said all things are fair? To me, it all comes down to product and demand. We want their cars, evidently do not want ours, so why would we expect them to want our cars either??
2)I was always of the opinion that if the right product is produced, then demand will supply the jobs. It appears that that the bailout proponents are crowing “jobs, jobs, jobs”, product be damned(at least in the eyes of those promoting the bailout).
3) Is it possible that the transplants ARE the new US auto industry? I fully realize that many point out “where the profits go”, but I have to ask..who is building plants in THIS country, who is employing more American workers, and who is idling plants here and using production in other countries? Do consumers really care about where profits end up? Should they?
4) Assuming the bailout goes through..then what? Are consumers all of a sudden going to trade their Camrys in for Malibus? Just my gut feelings here, but I think consumers have spoken, and the traditional domestic nameplate is no longer on their radar screens. The domestics could build the most reliable, best mileage, most durable car on the planet and consumers for whatever reason still wont give them the time of day.
Thanks for your time.
@Ronnie Schreiber: The Chinese government forces joint-ventures. 100% foreign direct investment is not allowed in China. If you want to do business in China, you must have a local partner.
Ronnie, if you keep repeating this, then I will have to call you Wrongie Schreiber (“Schreiber” happens to be German for “writer”, so it would fit.)
I’m sorry, but you are plain and utterly wrong. Google “WFOE” and “China” and ye shall receive plenty of information on how to set up 100% Foreign Direct Investment enterprises in the PRC. I should know, I’m the legal representative of two. And I have helped countless (and so far very happy) foreigners to set up same. With a minimum paid in capital of $44K (for a consulting or trading company) or $150K for a manufacturing company, you are off to the races. You can stretch the payments over 2 years and can spend the capital immediately. As a start, all that’s needed is a board resolution of your foreign company – which will own the enterprise 100 percent and can use the after tax profits as it deems fit
In ancient times, JVs were required in China, but that went the way of the dodo. Nothing unusual. Years ago, I wanted to buy (with an American partner) a US radio station, and I could not, because I never got around to trading my Green Card for a decent American passport. (Murdoch did, and that got us Fox news…) Anyway, joint ventures are going out of style in China. The smart foreign investor usually starts with a WFOE (Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise.) Existing JVs are rapidly being dissolved: Either the Chinese buy out the foreigners, or the other way round. Should you be a foreign automobile manufacturer, and you are dead set on joining the 100 or so automobile manufacturers already active in China, then yes, currently, you must do it with a joint venture. That’s because the Chinese view their automobile industry as strategically important as the American government thinks of a small town radio station. The Chinese will drop that requirement by 2010, and I heard, the FCC also may take a more lenient view of Section 310 of the Communications Act of 1934.
PS: If you go to China and you want to set up a business, your business partners will most likely try to convince you that you absolutely “should” or “must” – the Chinese language can be a bit ambiguous – set up a JV. Believing them will be your first wrong step of many.
PPS: My Chinese right hand just read the PS, laughed and said “yeah, that’s right!” She’ll gladly take your money for a JV, if you insist. Prepare yourself to never see it again.
PPPS: http://www.chinalawblog.com/2006/10/china_open_for_business.html <- that blog is actually pretty good.
The US auto industry would do a lot better if proponents hadn’t been force fed wrong information and propaganda.
Reading this thread has me shaking my head.
The most important asset in battle is accurate information. If you have accurate information, you can do miracles with small forces — if your information is wrong, you can destroy your entire army in the blink of an eye.
The US auto industry has covered up its general ineptitude by shifting the ground on the various rationales for its misfortunes.
It’s not that hard, really.
The cars are too big.
They are too thirsty.
The quality sucks.
They are three generations behind competitors’ cars.
After-Sales Service is a disgrace.
They couldn’t sell the cars if they didn’t have 0% – 72 months – offers.
The arguments about the playing field not being level are silly. Asia? Most roads are really narrow – there are US cars for personal transportation that would be taking down houses as it moved along those roads. And it’s not as if the prices of the local cars are comparatively lower than those of the imported American versions.
Detroit managers took the easy way out – trusting it would be someone else’s problem before it all blew up in their faces.
Think what you will of Turner, but his last two sentences should sink in:
“The days of big automobiles are over. The days of fossil fuels are over.”
Instead, what’s the newest tidbit we’re being fed: that the earth contains enormous oil reservoirs in its interiors, and that this oil is seeping into old wells, refilling them. That there won’t be an oil shortage, and that there is nothing to worry about.
I kid you not! In a blink of an eye, you can lose an army if you’re delusional about your prospects. And that’s what Detroit has done.
LALoser :
November 30th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
I agree with Flashpoint. In Japan, China, Phlippines, India and others, the import tax into those countries are back-breaking.
While that’s true for most of the countries you list, it’s false in regards to Japan.
Import tariffs on vehicles imported into Japan are zero. Compare that to vehicles imported into the United States have a 2.5% tariff, unless they are pickups, which have a 25% tariff (vehicles built in Mexico and Canada are considered domestic and have zero tariffs due to NAFTA).
@Geotpf & Stein:
Also, the propaganda regarding state provided healthcare and retirement is generally total bunk. In some countries, both might be government administered, but ain’t free. Not free at all. Actually, they are taking an ever bigger chunk out of the paycheck.
From http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/33507
“By the way, Japanese protectionist restrictions on rice imports force Japanese consumers to pay three or four times the world price for rice. How much sense does it make for Congress to retaliate against Japan by imposing restrictions on their products thereby forcing American consumers, say Lexus buyers, to pay higher prices?
Should our rule be: If one country screws its citizens, we should retaliate by screwing our citizens?”
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/topten.cfm
Hong Kong takes top rank of the Heritage Foundation’s Index of Economic Freedom. The US ranks 5th after Singapore, Ireland, and Australia. China itself has rank 126. Hong Kong is widely regarded as China’s test market. When the Brits handed HK over, many feared it would turn into an oppressed China. The opposite is true. China turns more and more into a Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is hard to beat: One big duty free store, taxes in the teens. If they would just drive on the right and proper side, it would be paradise. The Chinese own it.
China has a rather high import duty on cars: 25% Nevertheless, if you want to show that you’ve made it, you drive an import: A BMW, a Benz, an imported (as opposed to home-grown) Audi, an imported VW. The Chinese know exactly what is imported and what is not. I see next to no imported US cars here. Not that the roads are narrow. Park Avenue is an alley compared to Chang An Avenue, on which I look while I type this.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=a0XWoWq6J5k8&refer=home
Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. once exported jobs. Now, it is exporting unemployment.
Economists say worldwide unemployment may increase to a two-decade high as trade and investment ties that have developed during 20 years of globalization magnify the impact of the U.S. contraction. Without buoyant economies elsewhere in the world to act as buffers, a longer, deeper slump in the labor market is likely.
“In the same way that we were supporting economic activity when we were growing rapidly, the recession in the U.S. is going to be a drag on the global economy and is going to reduce employment in our trading partners,” says Lewis Alexander, chief economist at Citigroup Inc. in New York.
Tanta, the Mortgage Finance expert blogger, died yesterday. She is eulogized over at Calculated Risk, and the world financial movers are heavy in the comments section.
She had a memorable description of Detroit, and had this to say about GM:
“One of the Big Three Financing Outfits With A Sideline In Cars.”
There’s the crux, I guess. Actually making the cars got too bothersome, and that’s why the 2.? didn’t pay much attention to that bit.
Actually, Financing and Parts ARE very profitable for an automaker. Usually more profitable than building cars. I was aghast when GM ran GMAC and Delphi into the ground.
With good dealers, selling cars is a loss leader for financing and service business.
If someone would offer me Mr. Goodwrench as the basis for a service-only franchise, I’d take it (if the price is right.) These service only chains fetch a high price in the private equity market, usually they go for one year+ of sales (not profits.)
Obama should pass legislation that tells Asia if their cars don’t meet our goals THEN THEY DON’T GET SOLD IN AMERICA. 100mpg or Electric powered.
There are lots of cars, perhaps even a majority, which never make it to the US. Not everyone is fixted on selling there when there are growing markets to exploit.
Hong Kong is hard to beat: One big duty free store, taxes in the teens. If they would just drive on the right and proper side, it would be paradise. The Chinese own it.
They do drive on the correct side. Driving on the correct side hasn’t hampered anyone exporting to the US – even Layland got it right for a long time before they fecked it up.
——————-Stein X Leikanger :
December 1st, 2008 at 3:14 am
It’s not that hard, really.
The cars are too big.
They are too thirsty.
The quality sucks.
They are three generations behind competitors’ cars.
After-Sales Service is a disgrace.
They couldn’t sell the cars if they didn’t have 0% – 72 months – offers.—————-
TOO BIG? I own a Chrysler 300 and an S550. I am 6’7 tall and I needed the largest cars I could get. I think a car with the interior space of the 300 is plenty good and not too big. My S550 is 205 inches long – the same length as a large SUV. That car is long, yes, but its used as a limousine in many places. The Lincoln MKS, Avalon and Genesis are the same length. Its not just cause they copy from each other, its because Americans need large cars…but, we need them to be fuel efficient too. A 750 and a Audi A8 are the same length too.
Quality sucks? I would have agreed 7 years ago, but currently, GM and Ford are producing the best cars they’ve ever made. I think the real problem is news media bias against them. The Japanese are notorious for playing down American cars. They also don’t keep paper trails on their cars for problems that are easily fixed like a wiper blade, a tire or a taillamp.
I know people working for Japanese companies and this is true.
3 Generations behind????
A Ford Taurus or a Chevy Impala might be 3 generations behind a BMW 6 or a BENZ E/S class but compared to the Japanese cars? That’s balogna. I’d take a loaded Taurus over a loaded Honda Accord ANY DAY.
I wouldn’t buy ANYTHING Toyota has, besides a Prius… and only if fuel was an absolute problem.
The Japanese pay off who they have to pay off.
The Chinese pay off who they have to pay off.
south Korea pays off who they have to pay off.
Meanwhile, American products are taxed so high in those countries, our stuff actually sits on their docks because its unnafordable by regular people.
WE NEED PROTECTIONISM.
Wake up Rip Van Winkle.
Who are the Japanese and Koreans paying off?
Answer – All those Accord, Camry, and Hyundai buyers.They’re getting products they want to buy.
Can’t sell imported cars in Japan? You can actually, if you can get anything they want to buy
Toyota tried hard to make it happen, so guys like you would quit whining.
http://www.autofiends.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/toyotacavalierad.jpg
http://www.members.shaw.ca/toyota_cavalier/
However, in the land of Civics and Corollas, nobody needed or wanted a Chevy. It didn’t offer anything special either in quality, performance, or price.
I travel to Japan at least once a year and I see more and more foreign cars – mostly VW ( Golf, Audi) and Ford products(small Fords, Volvos and Jaguars). BMW and Mercedes are common as well. GM? Not so much – the only GM cars are ‘bling-mobiles’ like the Escalade or old Camaros with loud pipes.
As for protectionism. We tried that in the 1980s – the last time that the big 3 promised to reform themselves if the Govt gave them a break. Didn’t happen then. Why would it happen now?
Universal Healthcare is what America really needs
Wait to see European states bankrupted by “Universal Healthcare”. Someone has to pay for that.
TANSTAAFL. Google it if do do not known what it means.
I live in Europe, and this state of things we have here is not sustainable.
Bertel,
Ronnie, if you keep repeating this, then I will have to call you Wrongie Schreiber (”Schreiber” happens to be German for “writer”, so it would fit.)
Somewhere near the roots of my father’s family tree is an alter zayde who was a sofer, a ritual scribe.
I’m sorry, but you are plain and utterly wrong.
Perhaps out of date, but hardly “utterly wrong”. Besides, we’re discussing the auto industry and you yourself say,
Should you be a foreign automobile manufacturer, and you are dead set on joining the 100 or so automobile manufacturers already active in China, then yes, currently, you must do it with a joint venture.
Like I said, I’m not utterly wrong. India’s automotive trade group, SIAM, uses the FDI issue to try to attract foreign investors away
That’s because the Chinese view their automobile industry as strategically important as the American government thinks of a small town radio station.
It’s ironic that you compare US policy that hinders foreign ownership of radio/tv stations here with China’s auto industry. Are there any broadcasters or news agencies in China that are not state owned or controlled? At least the US has always allowed privately owned broadcasters – because in the US the airwaves belong to the people, not the government (cf. FCC Act of 1935). That’s why, unlike the UK for example, Americans don’t have to pay a tax or get a license for a radio or tv set. In many countries, even if they’ve opened up to private broadcasters, government owned broadcasters still dominate the scene, e.g. BBC.
Should our rule be: If one country screws its citizens, we should retaliate by screwing our citizens?”
Let me ask you, do you think the Japanese government would allow commercials on Japanese tv and radio that told Japanese consumers how cheap rice would be if their government permitted the sale of US rice?
I’m a free trader, so I’d like to see the US have entrée into those markets in which we can compete on price and quality. We should be able to sell good cheap rice in Japan. Also, while it might not be as cheap as powdered milk products from China, US milk doesn’t have melamine in it.