This is what I get for taking a moment to check in at GM-Volt.com. The angry young Volt-lovers are freaking out about the possibility of GM not surviving until the Volt’s launch date, and the prospect of losing their beloved fetish object has folks in a “pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship” kind of mood. The emotional fervor that these people feel towards this nonexistant vehicle is such that their suggestions make handing a blank check to Detroit look like a good idea. The “GM-Volt.com Viability Plan Suggestion,” was put forward by semi-retired NASA engineer Phil Toney, and man is it a doozy. The plan boils down to congress legislating that the entire government fleet (600k+ vehicles) be replaced with, you guessed it, Chevy Volts. But that’s not all…
According to GM-Volt.com founder Lyle Dennis, these “Chevy Volts should be sold to the government at premium and without a battery warranty. Each vehicle should be sold at a profit. And in so doing, and assuming sufficient battery pack quantities can be produced, they could be released earlier than the November 2010 deadline” (emphasis in original). This suggestion has been forwarded to “the highest-ranking GM executives” Dennis has access to, because as he puts it, “since the government is already spending billions on bad assets, how about a few billion on good assets!”
Except for the issues with GM rushing to even make the “late 2010” launch date, and the fact that they’ll only be able to build 10k per year. And then there’s the tiny problem of the $30b (600k vehicles x $50k) taxpayer price tag for an unproven product. But by all means, follow Dennis’s advice and forward the plan to your elected representatives. They could probably use a good laugh right about now.
Battery warranties for any Volts that GM sells to the government will be a bit pointless since GM’s losses on those warranty costs will just have to be paid for by the government anyway (at least under the bridge to nowhere eternal borrowing proposal).
I advise politicians to look at the current president’s popularity rating to see what the public thinks of giving cost-plus contracts to questionable companies.
Apparently cost-plus contracts are popular in the space program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost-plus_contract
Poor Volt. It could have been a real lifesaver for GM if it had been ready in 2007 at a $30k price tag. Now it’s just too little, too late.
Oh and here is the latest bit of bad news for the Volt people:
http://www.gasgoo.com/auto-news/1008517/BYD-F3DM-approved-for-production-and-sale.html
If I had to choose handing 25B to chevy and getting nothing or handing 30B over and getting 25B worth of _SOMETHING_ (anything!!), I know which I’d chose!
Maybe now is the time to offer the federal government my own solution to the energy crisis. It’s an automobile powered by a perpetual motion mechanism. I don’t have the details completely worked out yet, but if the feds would commit to buying 600,000 of them at a premium price without any warranty, I’m highly confident that I’ll have a practical production model ready by the delivery date.
This actually isn’t a bad idea, even if it’s extended beyond government fleet. Basically, subsidize sales of the Volt to the general public: If you own anything that gets more then x Miles Per Gallon, you get a purchase credit of $y (where y is a five-digit number that increases with the value of x) towards a Volt.
This neatly sidesteps the WTO subsidization rules by being a) demand-side and b) a “green” stimulus effort. It also nets GM and the government a huge PR win: they’re getting people spending, keeping people working, cutting emissions and our dependence on furrin’ oil. There’s something for everyone, except fringe Libertarians.
Now, the only problems are:
* It’s a direct funnel of cash to GM at the expense of Ford, if not Toyota and others, but GM did take the risk in developing the Volt. You could probably throw Tesla a bone, too.
* It’s economically and geographically partisan in that it excludes non-Volt-producing states, as well as bushwacking the producers of gasoline.
* The most important: the Volt might not actually exist.
psarhjinian:
I’m not sure you read the idea. It is that the government buy only one model of car from GM, with no warranty, and with cost-plus pricing.
If the government is buying vehicles based on a certain objective, say carbon output, then it should do so without bias. The cheapest, most reliable vehicle to meet a certain carbon output level in a given year should be what the government buys, after tough bulk volume pricing negotiations with the manufacturer.
GM hasn’t taken any risk in developing the Volt, it is PR vaporware. GM has one of the worst hybrid development records of any manufacturer.
Honda has hybrid, CNG and hydrogen cars rolling on US streets in private hands now.
“You could probably throw Tesla a bone, too.” Government servants will need bullet proof vests if they are put on the street in taxpayer funded Lotus Elises.
First of all lets get a bot realistic: GM will be printing money for some time and Volt will be build. US government will subsidize all GM work for foreseeable future at cost of inflation and recession, bit that what Congress and Senate were elected for. The sad part there is no aging Republican governor in sight to rescue country from socialist ideas and following recession.
Secondly, the price of Volt is immaterial. It will be more then 40K with a steering wheel and a brake pedal and batteries may or may not included. Since it will be funded by taxpayers the list price is irrelevant: if GM looses 20K or 40K per vehicle, the congress and senate will subsidize.
BTW, Wagoner may be a great CEO, since we have no idea who would replace him if congress has to appoint a new figurehead.
I’m not sure you read the idea. It is that the government buy only one model of car from GM, with no warranty, and with cost-plus pricing.
I did. I’m suggesting it be extended beyond replacing government fleet vehicles to the public at large under the guise of “Greening America’s Roads” or somesuch PR nonsense.
These idiotic fanboys need to be kept from reproducing. They are a danger to our national security.
What’s so messiah about Volt anyway? It’s a crappy series hybrid with crap range and crap highway mileage (compared to, say, Prius or maybe even Yaris).
You know what other vehicle was made that way, and got crap ‘highway’ mileage?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant
4 gallons per mile at 20mph.
It’s a flawed design, in that it could be twice as powerful (or have engines twice as light and small) if it would only have a proper drivetrain. Efficiency of electric-electric transmissions at full power is, unfortunately, rather poor. Expect this thing to get low 30’s when blasting down the highway at 90mph.
The US Forest service may have an issue with this grand proposal.
Ed Niedermeyer, You missed the punch line. On Nove 25th, this appeared, posted by Lyle:
Furthermore, I was also graced with a reply from GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz after I forwarded him our suggestion. He had this to say about it:
“There are certainly elements of this suggestion that are potentially useful, but even a large government fleet, say, 50,000/year, would not solve the larger problem.”
I asked Mr Lutz how else we of Volt Nation might help ensure getting the Volt on the road, and he said:
“(Ask) your members to e-mail their Congresspersons to express support for the “Detroit 3″ loans. That would assure a future for Volt!”
Even arranging for actual purchases of GM product at ridiculous prices won’t help… Just keep begging! That’s the plan!
Honestly I kind of like the idea. Now, I may be a little biased since I generate electricity for a living but hey, that just means my job is that much more secure.
But seriously though, 600,000 vehicles charging up every night might put a little bit of strain on our nation’s electric grid. In fact, if you factor in the new generation stations needed for charge these cars, the $30B is just the beginning.
Rday says,
Rday :
November 28th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
These idiotic fanboys need to be kept from reproducing. They are a danger to our national security.
————-
Thank you for showing us all what a complete idiot you are. The Volt will be charged by electricity generated in the USA. Less money will be going to countries that hate us and use our gas money to kill us. The Volt is for our National Security.
The people over at GM-Volt recognize that.
Buying the Volts won’t help GM one bit. They won’t last long enough to get the money. Paying in advance wouldn’t work either, because they would STILL not make it to delivery time, and would have spent the money trying to stay in business long enough to make the cars.
If the Volt is such a godsend, then the USA should simply tell GM to put it in a seperate corporation that we will then buy from them. They get cash for the volt, we get the volt design company. We then license the ability to produce the volts BACK to GM, and maybe Ford and Chrysler too. If you believe the volt is such a panacea, certainly you can’t believe we should put all our eggs in the GM basket?
Oh, wait, the Volt is not such a spectacular leap, and therefore, the whole idea is a waste of time.
DaveMiller: “Thank you for showing us all what a complete idiot you are. The Volt will be charged by electricity generated in the USA. Less money will be going to countries that hate us and use our gas money to kill us. The Volt is for our National Security.
The people over at GM-Volt recognize that.”
GM’s plans are to product 10K Volts in its first full year (2011) and perhaps 200K, total, by 2015. A vehicle built in these piddly quantities means nothing to our National Security. This is a car which GM can neither build economically nor sell at a profit. It can’t save GM but it can help take GM down. GM has almost no idea how long the battery will last in practice and what form their warranty will take.
With few exceptions, nobody at GM-Volt recognizes this or admits it. They’re either clueless or pretend to be. The ones that do have a clue tend to get shouted down by the Volt flavor of dittoheads.
The Volt is 99% PR, 1% product. It is not going to save GM or the planet. The numbers simply don’t add up.
Meanwhile, the hybrids GM is offering today are hardly selling at all.
Marketing 101 says not to hype the living daylights out of something you don’t have available to sell. Look up “Doing an Osborne” for an object lesson.
DaveMiller :
November 28th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Rday says,
Rday :
November 28th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
These idiotic fanboys need to be kept from reproducing. They are a danger to our national security.
————-
Thank you for showing us all what a complete idiot you are. The Volt will be charged by electricity generated in the USA. Less money will be going to countries that hate us and use our gas money to kill us. The Volt is for our National Security.
The people over at GM-Volt recognize that.
Neither Lutz, nor his fan-boys, have ever understood the energy equation. Lutz repeatedly claimed that the Volt would secure energy independence for the USA … sigh.
Whether you are doling out the energy in gas-tank sized volumes at filling stations, or sending it to powerplants in trucks or pipelines, it’s still the same physical laws that apply: to move a weight a set distance, at a set speed, for a set amount of time – you use the same energy.
With today’s power plants, the US remains highly dependent upon imported hydrocarbons to run these and provide the power required. Running the plants at night will help, but the increased demand for charging power will mean they are using more fuel than today. Nuclear might alleviate this a bit, but you’d be surprised to know how many nuclear plants you need to supply cars with energy in significant numbers.
Lutz would have done a lot more for US energy independence if he’d been set on building cars that weren’t named for landmasses and mountains.
The other problem the Volt will have is that it will be launched into a three way “green” battle between Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai. Sort of like the Lions getting into the NFL playoffs through an “NFL bailout.” The results aren’t going to be pretty.
mcs, LoL!
Stein, sorry, your energy equation is bunk. It takes a lot more energy when an internal combustion engine with an operating efficiency of between 15% and maximum 30% is driving the wheels compared to an an EV with efficiencies of 70 to 80%.
Yes, there are some additional losses at the power plant and transmission, but these combined still yield much higher overall efficiency (50+%). Just why do you think everyone is pushing EVs?? And America is the Middle East of coal, so yes, EV’s will offset imported oil. Period. (no, US power plants don’t burn oil, except for a tiny, irrelevant percentage (2-3%).
Paul, the total energy used per mile is surprisingly similar for both modes of the Volt, whether it uses the American electricity grid or imported oil.
The problem comes about because the efficiency of each stage in the chain needs to be multiplied together
In EV mode
mine to power station?
Power station 33%
station to socket 92%
charger ?
The overall efficiency coal mine to socket is thus at most 30%, probably more like 27%
The well to bowser efficiency for gas is about 83%
The Volt’s engine will run at 5 setpoints, so there is no particular reason that its efficiency should fall much below that of the Prius engine, which is always above 30% above idle, and maxes out at 37%. The generator could be 98% efficient if they chose to design it that way. That comes to about 27%. After that the losses are pretty much identical in both operating modes.
CO2 wise the chances are good that the Volt will create less CO2 overall per mile when it runs on gas. That’s mainly because power stations produce more CO2 per kWh, because they burn coal.
KixStart :
November 28th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
GM’s plans are to product 10K Volts in its first full year (2011) and perhaps 200K, total, by 2015. A vehicle built in these piddly quantities means nothing to our National Security. This is a car which GM can neither build economically nor sell at a profit. It can’t save GM but it can help take GM down.
Absolutely true. The Volt exists because GM has negative “green” PR, due to the crushing of all the EV1s and things like the HUMMER. It’s a PR exercise that will cost the company billions of dollars at a time when they are about to go out of business and can’t afford to blow a couple billion dollars at looking green.
GM has almost no idea how long the battery will last in practice and what form their warranty will take.
Well, it’s basically a hybrid, right? Then to qualify for tax credits and the like, the warranty on the battery and all hybrid-related components should be eight years, one hundred thousand miles or longer (the same as the warranty on the Prius’s battery and hybrid parts). Of course, Congress could change the law to reduce this requirement if GM says the Volt’s battery is too crappy to meet such a requirement.
@Greg Locock: Bravo. This argument should be made again, and again, and again.