“Westchester County lawmakers last night made it illegal for drivers to keep their vehicles running for three minutes or more while parked.” Now I’m sure TTAC’s Best and Brightest will be all abuzz with lots of reasons why this idea makes no sense at all (kids roasting/freezing to death), defines “unenforceable,” doesn’t make any sense and violates Americans’ constitutional right to not be hassled by the government for stupid ass shit. But all that counts for naught compared to our collective responsibility to “reduce dangerous emissions like carbon dioxide that contribute to Westchester’s poor air quality and to global warming.” This according to Thomas Abinanti, D-Greenburgh, the bill’s sponsor. “Climate change is the defining issue of the 21st century,” Abinanti told LoHud.com. “We can do our part by not adding to the problem. Idling uses more gas and is worse for vehicles than turning your car off. Most idling is not only wasteful, but unnecessary.” Most? Not all? Westchester motorists who find themselves on the wrong end of a cop’s stop watch could be fined up to $250. [Miss you Glenn]
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Does this mean that all of Westchester County’s stoplights will have red-lights of a duration less than 3 minutes?
gogogodzilla: Oh, absolutely not.
How about ambulances? We idle for hours, to keep the radios and large-power-draw internals on line.
Stephan Wilkinson: Planet haters!!
The shame is the worst offenders for emission-belchers are old, out-of-tune diesel trucks. Shutting them off and re-starting them will probably spew more NOx particulates than just letting them idle.
I’d totally support this: there’s no need to sit idling for more than sixty seconds and it’s not exactly good for your car, either. If you’re cold, wear a jacket and keep the windows up, or go inside; if you’re hot, well, get out of the car and go somewhere, don’t just friggin’ sit there.
I’m sure there are, occasionally, some extenuating circumstances, but idling is laziness and irresponsibility made flesh (err, metal). I don’t know about Westchester, but the ground-level air quality in certain major cities is a real problem, and automotive emissions are a large part of it. As someone who wore a particulate mask when bicycling through Toronto on really bad days, I have zero sympathy for anyone who gets fined. When Toronto passed this, it went over without a hitch, excepting some de riguer bitching from cabbies
The only problem is that I’d often see police and city vehicles idling. A few quick videos taken (the taking of one which got me a caution) postmarked to my councillor, certain officials and the more asinine local papers made that go away.
It’ll be neat to see how they handle idle-stop-equipped vehicles.
Stupid-ass Shit will be the major category of legislation that we’ll be seeing in the next several years, I predict.
I think this is a great idea. I’m one of those people who does get pissed off at idiots who sit in a parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes with their engine running, or leave their car running when they run into Starbucks. And why is it everytime I notice this, it is ALWAYS an SUV? It’s like they do it out of spite.
They have a similar law in Aurora, Colorado, however no one cares about the emissions created by idling cars. The justification given is that it’s supposed to cut down on the theft of vehicles left unlocked and idling. Apparently this is a problem on cold winter mornings.
They have a similar law in Aurora, Colorado, though the justification given is that it is supposed to eliminate the theft of unlocked, idling vehicles.
The best part is that the cops will be timing your idling from their idling patrol car. Brilliant.
Same law on the books in NYC. It does not work. Or actually it does: when “browny” blocks you with his Lumina he offers you choice of tickets: $186 for illegal parking or $186 for idling. You have a choice. Don’t ask how I know…
The best part is that the cops will be timing your idling from their idling patrol car. Brilliant
A camera phone and a 3G wireless connection are your best friends. Trust me on this.
Can I be exempt if I own a Saturn Aura Green Line or Malibu Hybrid?
What about the idling patrol cars waiting to catch you speeding or…idling?
what a stupid law. Why doesn’t anyone crack down on the black soot belching diesel trucks. I think those are far worse than any Accord or other random car idling for 5 minutes.
ah, micromanagement, the elixir of politicians everywhere.
Still ,one thing that drives me nuts, for different reasons, is the sound of idling diesel trucks. I couild see getting them for noise pollution. Of course, what really drives me nuts is those damn backup beepers. Why Toyota put them on Priuses, I’ll never fathom. I think Toyota hates me. My fantasy is to find the people responsible for trucks having to have backup beepers, and stick ’em in a dark room for a week with a backup beepers going nonstop. I see I’m deviating from the topic. Or am I? We WERE talking about micromanagement, weren’t we?
Does anyone know who’s responsible for those damn backup beepers?
psarhjinian
My brother wore one of those particulate masks in the ’70s when he was a law student in Philly. It got black awfully quickly. But I think most of the problem was the factories, not the cars. Philly is still pretty bad even though cars are a lot cleaner now.
I appreciate the back up beeper when trying to figure out if that truck ahead is just sitting or is just going to take me out.
. But I think most of the problem was the factories, not the cars. Philly is still pretty bad even though cars are a lot cleaner now.
Toronto has unfortunate, Los Angeles-like geography, and suffers from very humid summer days. There’s very little heavy industry within the downtown proper and the street-level stuff is largely vehicular traffic. Again, like L.A., only we get snow in the winter.
If I didn’t wear the mask on bad days, I’d be blowing greyish-black snot out my nose when I get home. Awful.
Just keep your foot on the accelerator pedal. If the engine is racing, you’re not idling!
Be careful. Suffolk County, not far from Westchester, started that whole “don’t talk on the cellphone while driving” craze. Much to the delight of Bluetooth headset manufacturers and law enforcement all over the world.
VeeDub had an Ecomatic Golf in Germany in the 90s that cut the engine off at the read light and restarted automatically when you pushed the pedal. Was a dud. People were scared the thing wouldn’t work and they would get honked at. The technology is being revisited now.
What’s next? A law against idling cars now. A law against idle plants next? Idle workers? Idle talk?
Was a dud. People were scared the thing wouldn’t work and they would get honked at. The technology is being revisited now.
Yes, by Toyota. Heck, even GM and Honda’s mild hybrids do idle-stop. That it hasn’t become more widespread is kind of depressing, as it’s such low-hanging fruit.
Of course, you’re talking about Volkswagen. Even without idle-stop, I’d be worried about the average VW’s ability to turn over.
What’s next? A law against idling cars now. A law against idle plants next? Idle workers? Idle talk?
To be fair, the idling law is about emissions. Idle talk may sink ships, but it doesn’t emit unlocked carbon dioxide.
I am surprised there is not already a law against that in the U.S. Nothing in the traffic code adressing unnecessary polution?
It’s been on the book here in Germany for decades, and young people learn this at driving school. The cops police it with discretion.
That said, those who say new laws are bad have a point. I would add that when people waste gas, it just shows that it is still too cheap.
People actually get MAD about idlers? Wow, and I thought *I* got irate over stupid stuff.
All I have to say is this: if you worked with the people *I* work with, you’d eat lunch in your car, too.
Having said that, this law is pretty stupid. When and if we get to that point with our atmospheric conditions, I have a better idea: anyone with an SUV larger than an Escape should be required by law to a) produce a horse trailer, b) show photographic proof of the vehicle covered in mud, or c) be subject to massive fines. There you go!
Now leave me alone – you’re letting cold air into my car.
David Holzman : Still ,one thing that drives me nuts, for different reasons, is the sound of idling diesel trucks.
I completely agree. I live about a block away from a motel near the highway where truckers frequently spend the night. They usually start their trucks at like 5:00 a.m. and let them idle for hours on end before they either turn them off or drive off. Maybe they are running their engines to power refrigerator units or something. In the winter I suppose they are afraid of their engines freezing up.
But, yeah, that low rumble for more than an hour at a time really gets on your nerves, especially when you’re trying to sleep.
What about motorcycles that emit 20-40x the pollutants of some cars? Is my idling time cut by 20-40 ? (180/40=4.5 seconds of allowed idle time).
What about motorcycles in general? I know in rural areas here when I don’t have enough weight to turn the light green any faster, I’ve been caught at lights > 3 minutes out in the middle of nowhere.
Is everyone supposed to turn off their engine when large trains approach at train tracks? I can just see cops hiding next to train crossings & issuing 100 tickets at once.
How about when we are already idling at a light for a minute or two and right as the light starts to turn yellow, an 100 year old woman decides to enter the crosswalk? If we approach 3 minutes do we have to turn the car off until she passes?
What about people with 20 year old cars where the starters are not reliable?
What about vehicles in “15 minute standing only” zones? I Idle & get a ticket or I “park” (since I’m not “standing” if the engine is off) and get a ticket. Are those zones now eliminated?
What about delivery drivers who are double parked who expect to drop off a package but end up idling for more than 3 minutes?
What about cabbies who are dropping someone off who can’t find the correct exact amount & the cabbie doesn’t have change? They may need to idle more than 3 minutes while people get their crap together & search for the correct bill(s)
This rule is just plain stupid.
What about warming up the car for 5 minutes in a blizzard so the defrosters are working?
Even in the cases where idling is silly and pointless, this law bothers me. What happened to personal freedom? And no, I generally don’t sit in an idling car. I’d much rather waste my gas accelerating faster than neccessary :-)
ronmichaelz :
I think this is a great idea. …. And why is it everytime I notice this, it is ALWAYS an SUV? It’s like they do it out of spite.
Laws like this drill right to the heart of what is a “right”.
You may think it’s dumb that I sit in my car and idle. You may think it’s stupid that I’m wasting my gas. You may resent that I’m doing it in an oversized SUV. …and so on and so forth.
Well…there’s lots of things in life I don’t particularly like or that I think are dumb or stupid or wasteful. I think all red cars that aren’t Corvettes, Vipers, or Ferraris are stupid. But that doesn’t mean they should be outlawed.
…all part of living in a representative democracy.
By the way… are there any engineers on here that have any real data on how much gas is burned while idling?
Get used to it, Big Mother in action. God I’m glad I live in the south, not the union of soviet suffolk countiers (or Westchester). I’m sad to say we’re turning into a pussy-ass country like canada where apparently the big worry is how long people idle their cars. What a joke.
JuniorMint: anyone with an SUV larger than an Escape should be required by law to a) produce a horse trailer, b) show photographic proof of the vehicle covered in mud, or c) be subject to massive fines
What about those people with more than 2.5 kids? Do they have to take their vehicle off-road to avoid massive fines or would the layer of dirt on the INSIDE of the vehicle count?
Add Toronto to the list where idling may be necessary to make a quick getaway when a gangsta wannabe starts firing his handgun. As if Toronto didn’t have enough things to worry about.
I’m really glad I live in a place that doesn’t worry about stuff like this.
@TaurusGT500
…all part of living in a representative democracy.
Another notable part of living in a representative democracy are these things called laws, that, in theory at least, are designed to protect the common good and the rights of individuals. It’s hard to argue that an individual has the “right” to sit in his car idling for long periods of time anymore than he has the right to chuck his garbage out the window of his car on the street.
It’s hard to argue that an individual has the “right” to sit in their car idling for long periods of time anymore than they have the right to chuck their garbage out the window of their car on the street.
Sooo…a legally licensed driver lawfully idling in a legally registered automobile for – let’s say – 15 minutes in a legal parking area is now the same as “chucking garbage out the window …onto the street”?
….hmmmmm. …missing. something. here.
Sounds like a death sentence to that All-American icon, the drive-through burger joint.
ronmichaelz :
I think this is a great idea. …. And why is it everytime I notice this, it is ALWAYS an SUV? It’s like they do it out of spite.
They do, they do… Because they can afford BOTH the SUV AND THE GAS since they actually make money in this evil capitalist country. :)
The same idiots who sit in their cars for 30 minutes probably bring their cars to the dealer complaining about the gas mileage.
TaurusGT500- yes, idling your car is the same as chucking garbage onto the street
This locality passed a similar bylaw several years ago. No citations have been issued.
Not too many years ago experts recommended leaving a car running if a restart would be required within five minutes. They said a restart consumed more fuel than idling.
I admire proponents ability to produce amenable trendy experts regardless the cause.
People worry about the wrong things.
Instead of worrying about how long someone’s car is idling, how about worrying about how to reduce the crime rate that’s been steadily rising ever since the law enforcement community started putting a laser focus on laws that bring in fines and other revenue dollars.
RF was right, all your arguments are completely worthless. Don’t you realize they played the trump card du jour: “It’s for the environment!”
[JuniorMint: anyone with an SUV larger than an Escape should be required by law to a) produce a horse trailer, b) show photographic proof of the vehicle covered in mud, or c) be subject to massive fines.]
brianmack :
November 12th, 2008 at 11:28 am
What about those people with more than 2.5 kids? Do they have to take their vehicle off-road to avoid massive fines or would the layer of dirt on the INSIDE of the vehicle count?
Ha! Yes, if any 6×6″ location of the interior of the car is either a) sticky enough to support the weight of the latest Stephen King novel, or b) so soiled as to make it impossible to tell the original color without consulting the owner’s manual, the driver gets a free pass.
Appeals may be submitted if driver can show evidence of more than 150 pounds of toys, baby accessories, or actual children.
All kidding aside, as soon as an SUV law passes, I’m rioting. I may think you’re a complete idiot for purchasing a 12-MPG vehicle for commuting to work, but I will defend to the death your right to do so.
…and cut you off.
Clean air?
Polluted air?
Which one do you value more?
Personally I prefer clean air, water, and land to the dirty kind.
I get the impression that many here are still too immature to care about the world they live in or the rest of the people they share it with.
The reason that “big brother” is constantly biting you in the ass is becuase you guys appear to be unwilling or incapable of acting in a responsible manner on your own. Freedom DOES require responsiblity and accoutability. You cant have freedom if you are unwilling to do the right things without government forcing you to do so.
Why do we need a law for this is the first place?
Idling your car/truck is simply dirtying up the air around you and your family as well as everyone else around you.
As Car guys WE should be the force promoting everything that aides our passion in the face of the MANY, MANY folks in this world that do NOT appreciate cars the way we do.
All you have to do is turn your damn wirst a half turn, or push a button and the job is done! What is so difficult about that?
I guess you guys have never sat in a playground with your children smelling and beathing car exhaust!
For a test, we idled a Lincoln MkS for > 12 hours on 4 gallons of gas. At that rate, in 3 minutes it burned .016 gallons or about 12 teaspoons.
whatdoiknow1: I get the impression that many here are still too immature to care about the world they live in or the rest of the people they share it with.
No, they are smart enough to recognize an ineffective, feel-good measure that is overly intrusive and just plain silly.
whatdoiknow1: The reason that “big brother” is constantly biting you in the ass is becuase you guys appear to be unwilling or incapable of acting in a responsible manner on your own.
Again, no. The idea that cars idling for more than three minutes is causing unacceptable levels of pollution is nonsense.
A modern car is extremely clean. New cars, in particular, are not a problem when it comes to air pollution.
This is more about professional busybodies who want to appear to be “doing something” than actually cleaning the air.
whatdoiknow1: I guess you guys have never sat in a playground with your children smelling and beathing car exhaust!
Yes, and today it is negligible. Go to a classic car show when the cars start up and leave at the end of the show – then you’ll smell real exhaust.
The idea that if some regulation is good, more regulation is better is nonsense. We need to move beyond this sort of foolishness.
Makes me want to back my car out of the garage, start it up and let it idle for an hour, just to spite the bastards….
How will this affect the after-school pickup crowd in the dead of winter?
I thought the majority of the nasty stuff was emitted from your car when you started it back up, and the cat-con isn’t warmed up to do its job effectively?
This law reeks of stupiditiditiditishionous.
The after-school pickup crowd should let their brats ride the school buses. Our town-of-13,000 school aystem daily runs about 50 full-size buses, I’m guessing, between the lower, middle and upper school. Since they need to size the bus fleet according to the student population rather than any assumptions about how many moron parents will pick their kids up, most of these buses depart at 2:30 every afternoon with anywhere from two to eight kids aboard as they trundle past the long, idling row of mommies in Escalades and Highlanders.
@ Stephan Wilkinson
I was referring to those schools with kids that live 1 mile away, yet don’t cross any major streets so the kids have to walk. They aren’t offered rides on the bus.
Would your hatred be different if it were a dad in a 90’s Lumina instead of a mom in an Escalade?
brianmack,
Where are these mythical schools? In HISD, they are simply not allowed to walk or ride bikes until 5th grade unless accompanied by a parent. Bus availability or not. The student patrols have been replaced with fully paid crossing guards decked out like police without a gun. I suspect within a few years, if not already, the guards will be unionized on expecting a pension.
:
Maybe, just maybe, a plurality or majority of the folks that care and are active in local politics in Westchester County have asked for this! IF you are not active in politcs and have a contray opinion it is your fault that it is not being considered.
It is a given this plurality is not made up primarily of auto-enthusaist. That is why a say we must give a little to be able to enjoy what we love.
The folks that make the laws can not make assumptions that every car on the road is new and is good repair. There are still many, many older cars on our roads that are not as clean as the newer models. All it takes is one “bad” car with a old exhuast system and burnt out cat to reek havoc on a confined street with hundreds of apartment dwellers injesting said fumes and pollution. I have not even factored in the weather conditions.
There are also far more vehicles on the road today than in the past. Lets now factor in the amount of “non-passanger” cars that are being used as everyday vehicles today that are not subject to the same emission standards as your average new sedan. Correct me if I am wrong but SUVs, Pickups, and CUVs classified as light -trucks do not have to meet the same standards as passanger cars.
Now lets factor in dozens of lding cars and “light-trucks” (of all vintage) within a two block area (common in many commercial districts) and needless to say it starts to add up.
If todays newer cars are so clean than why not put your face right at the tailpipe and breathe in the exhaust for a good 3 minutes and than tell us how well you are feeling afterwards. A 2009 model car is still putting out enough carbon dioxide to kill you in an inclosed place, am I not correct? So it is a given that what is coming out the tailpipe is NOT all that clean.
My point is why argue of a simple flick of the wrist or a push of a button? I can remember when we still had a lot of folks that refused to wear seatbelts, claiming it is their “Right”, forgetting that they carelessness was only raising all of OUR insurance rates and consuming public resources to scrap their smashed up body off our street after they managed to eject themselves through their windshields.
Now dont get me wrong I am NOT a “bleeding heart liberal” BUT I do respect the fact that I do share this world with billions of other people that also has rights and personal desires just like me. I also know that the people that do not appreicate the stuff I do have their only power to make my life less fun and happy. As an auto-enthusaist I KNOW I am outnumbered by those that could careless about the love of cars.
For this I will give them the benefit of the doubt and simply turn off my car and not idle it.
Nobody has addressed my motorcycle comment.
How about instead of this “idling” law, they make a law that REQUIRES cat converters on ALL motorcycles. I have even had friends LOOKING for one for their sportbikes & can’t find one.
Supposedly this is coming in 2010/2011 (phase 1) and it’s supposed to reduce co emissions by 50%. Estimated cost per motorcycle? $50.
Robstar,
I suspect you are correct that motorcycles are not very clean on a per gallon basis; however, that’s not an important thing.
How are motorcycles on a per mile basis?
I was under the impression that idling has a tendency to dilute your oil with unburned gas. And that despite what owners seem to believe, there’s less wear on diesel engines being shut off and restarted than left idling. Then they carp about the price of gas. Sheesh.