These are indeed turbulent times in the automotive industry. With every new day comes a flood of bad news, and a fresh sense of ominous momentum. As we continue to serve up hefty sides of bailout beef, we thought we’d offer up a quick, palate-cleansing taste of the non-bailout, non-industry-implosion gossip going ’round the net. And you’ll never believe what insiders have to say about the Toyobaru coupe pregnancy scare!
Tabloid sweetheart, the Toyobaru coupe tops todays scuttlebut. Despite having already been dubbed several Brangelina-esque nicknames by the motor press, we now hear that it will be sold in the US as the 2011 Scion tC. I still like Toyobaru. Let’s still call it that. Anyway, Carscoop has a rendering of what it probably won’t look like, but as they say, an RWD tC plus the iQ means Scion will be kicking ass in 2011. Or at least barely competing with Kia’s Soul and Koupe. OMG, I am such a bitch!
Speaking of bitchyness, we hear that the Lexus “dedicated” hybrid (whatever that means) will be bland and uninteresting. I mean, it’s the Lexus version of the new Prius… what did you expect? Pictures from Japanese buff book Mag-X surfaced at the VWVortex forums, and everyone’s falling asleep chattering away about it. Oh yeah, there’s also a pic in there of what they swear is the new Camry too. Looks like an Avalon with some Accord influences. Thrilling stuff!
Oh yeah, Motor Trend also thinks Toyota will bring a Prius coupe stateside. Unless it’s on the Toyobaru RWD platform, they can keep it. I’ll have the CR-Z, thanks.
Want a really manly car? That Nissan GTR is for pansies, so wait and save up for the GTR Spec V that eGMCartech says will be unveiled by the end of November. And it’s brilliant. In the sense that gaining 100 hp and losing 200 lbs means you’ll pay at least $153,625 for it. But you’ll be the fastest douchebag ’round the ‘ring… and best friends with Nissan marketing. Until Nissan brings out the GTR LM (Les Mans), anyway. Then you’ll just be another pansy in the second-best GTR out there.
The front end of that thing looks suspiciously similar to my 02 Sentra SE-R. I think that’s a good thing. Well at least it was on my Sentra…
Hm.. A subie under scion sheet metal sounds interesting. I’d want the AWD though. Give me ugly metal and AWD anyday. Subaru loyalists unite!
In deference to Toyota engineers I like Scion “weak and terrible”, maybe Scion wT for short.
My money is on Nissan, but whoever can make the cheapest, lightest RWD coupe will get my money*.
On the other hand, if the recession keeps gas cheap maybe I’ll just go for a dirt cheap Mustang V6: >200HP, manual transmission and RWD for about $16,500 new (much less used), and simple enough for an independent mechanic to work on when Ford is no longer with us.
Mock my live rear axle all you want, but see how well your weak and terrible rear suspension holds up on the post apocalyptic roads of the post apocalyptic US.
*In the sense that my additional demand for a used version will slightly increase residual values, slightly increasing what Toyota or Nissan can charge for new versions.
Here’s a crazy idea. If the Toyobaru collaboration is indeed sold as a Scion in the US, Toyota should go all out, jump on the retro style bandwagon, and give the car styling that evokes the AE86 Sprinter Trueno. It’ll appeal to the Initial D fanboys, and much like the ol’ Hachiroku, the Toyobaru is RWD, anyways, so all it needs is a 50/50 weight balance (or something close to it), and it’s perfect. It may even be the first Scion I lust after.
Give me ugly metal and AWD anyday.
I definitely see the RWD diluting Subaru’s basic image, but a small RWD Toyota/Scion coupe is intriguing. If anything, I’m glad that a company so focused on blandness is spending time and effort on something interesting. They’ve proven with the Supra what their engineers are capable of — and they are very capable — so the potential there is great.
Toyota should go all out
Yes. Yes they should. They know they can, since the MR2 seems to have a pretty loyal following.
maybe I’ll just go for a dirt cheap Mustang V6
I’d save my money if I were you — a stock Focus can outgun a standard V6 Mustang. That car is powered by weaksauce.
We need a good portmanteau for this new lovechild — something along the lines of Sciburu or Subion.
The Scion tC is nothing more than the replacement of the Celica. The Celica was always a “chick car”, like the Eclipse, or a car for guys in their early 20’s. The previous base Celicas were all sporty looking cars, but they never had any power, hence perfect for secretaries and girls in their 20’s.
One thing I want to add about Subaru, they need more non-4wd cars in their lineup due to fuel economy reasons. I know Subaru is known for it’s 4wd cars, but they need to offer cheaper and lighter fwd or rwd models to draw in more customers.
They know they can, since the MR2 seems to have a pretty loyal following.
That’s the thing that drives me bonkers about Toyota. They have a reputation for boring cars, but they used to have their sporty streak. Remember the MR2, Celica and Supra? I do. Now, the only sporty cars Toyota has is the Scion tC (and that’s stretching it, you have to crack open the TRD catalog and order the supercharger, short-shift kit and sport suspension to make it sort-of-sporty) and the Lexus IS sedans. I mean, at least GM has stuff like the Cobalt SS, Corvette, Camaro and CTS-V to stay sporty…
maniceightball:
Car and Driver test results (all manual transmissions):
2007 Ford Mustang V-6: 0-to-60-mph time: 6.5 sec
2008 Subaru Impreza 2.5i Sedan: 0-to-60-mph time: 7.6 sec
2008 Subaru Impreza WRX: 0-to-60-mph time: 5.8 sec
The Toyobaru coupe might have a weight advantage over the Impreza, and a slight drive train friction advantage (at the loss of traction), but at best it will have the 2.5i engine (because of the weak and terrible rear end) and be slower than the weaksauce powered Mustang V6. Subaru engines aren’t great on gas either.
Oh, and a Ford Focus manual does 0-60 in 8.1 seconds, but more importantly is horribly ugly and not rear wheel drive.
Now, the only sporty cars Toyota has is the Scion tC (and that’s stretching it […]
I wonder if there’s a correlation between how much they’ve spent on their F1 team and how little they’ve spent on sports cars. What’s Toyota’s halo brand these days? The Avalon? Do they even have one? It seems like they’re offloading that responsibility on their F1 division…
no_slushbox,
Remember, the WRX found an extra 40-something horsepower for 2009.
maniceightball,
You may have a point there. All the money they’re spending on a backmarker F1 program could be going to sporty road cars…
no_slushbox:
Interesting, although my understanding was that AWD hinders off-the-line performance. Besides, those cars aren’t really competing in the same segment — the Mustang is a go-fast-at-the-traffic-lights car, and the others listed on there will get you around corners really quickly. I guess my point was that the Focus would do the former job better than the V6 Mustang, and that the V6 Mustang is just an image car more than a performance one.
I might be completely wrong on this one though.
AWD can help or hinder, but I admitted to that when saying the Toyobaru might have “a slight drive train friction advantage.” With regard to handling the base Mustang is tied with the base Impreza in the crude handling measurement of roadholding:
Mustang V6: 0.81 g
Focus SE: .79 g
Subaru Impreza 2.5i: 0.81 g
Subaru Impreza WRX: 0.87 g
Having RWD gives the Mustang V6 a huge handling feeling advantage over other cars in its price range. The reason people assume it is only a straight line car, and can’t handle, is that it has a live (solid) rear axle.
However, the famous and highly sought after Toyota Corolla ae86 that this Toyobaru is modeled after also had a live rear axle.
I’ve never owned an American car, and I’ve had a Nissan 240SX and Toyota MR2 Spyder, but honestly I think the Mustang V6 is probably a better car than this Island of Dr. Moreau monstrosity will end up being.
Toyota could have done the right thing and put one of their high revving inline 4 engines (such as those that can be found in the Lotus Exige and Elise) longitudinally into a lightened and cheapened Lexus IS platform, but instead they went the really cheap route (i.e. the 1984 Fiero mis-match of parts).
I believe that Nissan, with a proper inline-4 in a RWD specific platform, will have a much better effort.
There is also the Hoondai turbo.
I think the tC is fine the way it is. It just needs a much better interior, clutch and shifter, and some more mpgs. More power is always welcome, but the tC already has pretty nice torque.
no_slushbox — I stand corrected about the Mustang.
I don’t quite agree with you that this collaboration will produce a poor product — quite the opposite, actually. But that’s another debate altogether rooted largely in speculation.
Demetri — that’s all fine and well, until the current gen Civic enters the picture. The tC doesn’t fare well when compared to the equally powerful* yet more fuel efficient Civic. More subjectively, too, the tC’s design is stale; now consider how excellently styled the Civic coupe is, and to me there’s no competition. I think Toyota dropped the ball on the tC, and missed out on a lot more potential sales.
*when comparing weight:BHP ratio
The Scion tC is nothing more than the replacement of the Celica. The Celica was always a “chick car”
Some were. Not all. The last-generation GTS and the fifth and fourth gens were pretty good, for the price point; better than the equivalent Honda/Acura. The six-generation (the “Fat Integra” version) was a waste, true.
I like the idea of a small, rear-drive car, especially if it had four doors. Since BMW has deigned to give us only heavy, impractical versions of the 1-Series, it’s a market niche that’s available for the taking.
Having driven both, the Civic doesn’t even come close to putting down the kind of low end power that the tC does. The tC may not be all that fast when you wring it out, but in normal driving, it feels great. The Civic has decent power but you have to be in the lowest gear and you have to go all out to really feel anything. The tC costs a little bit less than an LX Coupe and comes with more stuff if that’s your thing. I would also cite the hatchback and the closer shifter (too far away in the Civic) as bonuses.
On the other hand the Civic has a much nicer interior, superior fuel economy, and better clutch/shifter feel. All things that I want to see addressed in the next tC.
I also agree with psarhjinian that the last Celica GTS was no pushover. It had steering and handling that would embarrass many a RWD sport car.
AWD tends to be detrimental to off-the-line performance (except in the wet) because a good dragstrip-type launch requires a modest amount of slip to hook up properly. Not too much — if you have much more torque than traction (e.g., late-sixties big-block Camaro), you waste power turning the tires into greasy streaks — but a little slippage. With AWD, you aren’t going to get a lot of tire slip unless the pavement is wet or covered with loose sand or something, so either you bog off the line, or the slippage falls to the clutch ($$) or the viscous coupling/center diff ($$$$), with potentially nasty results. Once you’re moving, the AWD hardware’s extra weight is a handicap, as is the additional mechanical drag caused by having extra differentials and drive shafts to spin.
There are cases where an AWD car will accelerate better than a 2WD counterpart. For example, if you have an engine with really monstrous low-end torque, with 2WD you have to feather it off the line to avoid sending the tires up in smoke. AWD with the same engine would probably give you better times because any additional frictional losses or problems hooking up from a standing start are less than the time wasted trying to avoid wheelspin.
If you have a peaky turbo, the limitations of AWD for dragstrip acceleration can become acute. Years ago, C/D noted that the Diamond Star turbos (Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX/Eagle Talon) only produced their fairly impressive acceleration numbers if you did brutal, high-RPM clutch drops that your clutch, viscous coupling, and halfshafts would not tolerate kindly. A gentler start, the kind practiced by people who don’t like to spend their weekends replacing drivetrain components, extended their 0-60 times by something like a second and a half.
I think the thing to remember about the current tC is that it’s really a two-door coupe version of the European and JDM Avensis sedan, which is not particularly sporting. As with the other Scions, its brand flavor is primarily stylistic, and other than modest suspension-tuning differences, the tC’s sporting pretensions are pretty much just that. It’s like a Mazda3 2.3 with two fewer doors — not Corolla soggy, at least, but not really a sports car.
I think the thing to remember about the current tC is that it’s really a two-door coupe version of the European and JDM Avensis sedan, which is not particularly sporting.
It doesn’t really need to be sporting because sporting doesn’t really sell all that well. If it did, we would still have Celicas, Supras and MR2s.
What would be nice is Toyota dusting off the Altezza/IS200. Great car, but a bad Lexus.
“It’s like a Mazda3 2.3 with two fewer doors”
Indeed, and I think that’s what it needs to be. Of course, this is from someone who purchased a Mazda 3…
In the sense that gaining 100 hp and losing 200 lbs means you’ll pay at least $153,625 for it. But you’ll be the fastest douchebag ’round the ‘ring!
Ha! Maybe it’s the terrible cheap beer I’ve been consuming, but that made me LOL.
As a 1st-gen xB owner, if the tC people (who tend to act 14 and call everything they dislike “gay”) get a real-life sportscar as an update, after we xB owners got a bloated Corolla wagon, I am seriously going to key some cars.
I’m beginning to think it’s Scion’s mission to create a car company where all the different model-owners hate one another.
I’m beginning to think it’s Scion’s mission to create a car company where all the different model-owners hate one another.
Wait, your saying they failed at their marketing goal?
Wait, your saying they failed at their marketing goal?
You laugh at that commercial, but xB1 people really are like that. I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had in parking lots with someone who started out with an identical xB but took it in a completely different direction than I did. The last one had the same tails, but different fogs and rims.
Of couuuuuurse, the NEW xB is only driven by 50-somethings, who traded in the Explorer now that the kids are out of school…so there went that. If we really DO get the iQ, and the new tC doesn’t bring in a whole pile of insane Subaru owners (think the tC crowd can’t get any stupider? think again), we’ll be just fine.
but, all kidding aside, one more dog car could kill this brand.