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No, they (GM, Ford, and Chrysler) do NOT deserve a “bailout”. This is the way the “Free Market” is supposed(!) to work. The people who make a choice NOT to buy their cars/junk should not be the same people who are FORCED to pay for their “misdeeds” (to put it lightly). No, if this bill is passed, it would amount to legalized extorsion.
But here is how low it can *REALLY* get. Hold on, people…because even if you DO(!!)) give these criminals a bailout…the ingrates will NOT appreciate a DAMN THING!! THIS IS THE HONEST-TO-GOD’S TRUTH!!! You can NOT help these people. And assuming you TRIED, they would write a “Rant”…that is, a complete douche of an essay, on why that is BAD!!!
http://www.autoextremist.com/
Here we go again. I feel like I have to be pro-bailout on AB, anti-bailout on TTAC.
My real feeling is that these Republicans are right. This bailout is a bad idea. However, I also feel like it could be made all right if only it weren’t for partisan bickering. Right now we’ve got a plan to help out “the investors” by the Republicans and another plan to help out “the workers” by the Democrats, but where’s the plan to help out the consumers? Right now, my friend Ashley is between a Chevy Cobalt and a Hyundai Tiburon. (I mentioned this on AB too). She wants the Cobalt, but she’s going to buy the Tiburon because she’s afraid of losing her warranty via a GM bankruptcy.
I am shocked by the ineptitude not of Congress, not of Republicans, not of Democrats, but of GM itself. It will again do the same thing it’s done for so long–screw over the customers that gave it its life in the first place. All it would have to do is ask Congress to honor some kind of industry-standard 3-yr 50K mile warranty for its millions of loyal customers in case of BK, but it’s not even respectful enough of its cars or consumers to even make that little simple concession.
I am repulsed by GM’s incompetence. I care for its workers, but to give any compensation to a company this inept, this callous, this ridiculously dishonorable…
Didn’t the Republicans just have their asses handed to them — big time — this past November 4th?
The reason these ass clowns were shown the door, in large part, was their “stewardship” (to be kind) of the economy.
Detroit Todd: Exactly. There’s a reason they are no longer in control. While it’s not ideal to bail Detroit out, if anyone knew a damn thing about economics and the domino effect that would ensue were any of the Big 3 to file for Chapter 11, then they’d understand that this is bigger than “not letting the government intervene into private business affairs”, and has to do with saving this nation’s economy.
Do we want this recession to become a depression?
Do we want to lose about 7 million jobs in the next 3 years? During an economic low? I don’t think so.
Where were these guys for the last eight years when they (and the willings Dems) spent like drunken sailors?
Ah yes, if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that letting the automakers fail would be “how the free market is supposed to work.”
And since letting the free market work has NEVER EVER EVER failed us before, why not let it do its thing one more time?
Qusus, your comment make me think of my Grandmother, and those her age, who grew up during the Great Depression. Many of them were fond of saying “I know all about the ‘Invisible Hand of the Market.’ It was clenched very firmly around my throat.”
My darker angels (almost) make me wish this deal does fail. People who think that the disappearance of the Big Three would not affect them in the least would be in for a very, very big surprise. “Dominoes” doesn’t begin to describe what would happen.
Those who rail against financial regulations (we see how well the “market” performed de-regulated), health and safety standards, labor unions, etc., have seemingly forgotten why they came to exist in the first place, and feel they have gained no benefit from them. But if we do enter into another depression, they’ll learn.
On a hopeful note, we could probably power the entire Eastern Seaboard with the energy harnessed from FDR spinning in his grave.
Their Right, it would delay the inevitable.
You guys are talking about the last 8 years?
Well, let me ask you…what about the last 30 years? …make that 38 years?!?!
1970 is a good thumbprint for the decline. Some say earlier, some say a few years later.
Regardless, anyone who starts in with the “political” party line nonsense (garbage) fails to understand there have been MANY “Administrations” in that timeframe.
Suck it up, folks….”your kind”, the kind who demand “hep” (for those of you Southern Dems) ALL THE TIME…you support a pathetic philosophy.
It really IS pathetic knowing we’ve given these criminals Billions of dollars before under Bill Clinton…for the 80 mpg car that “just ISN’T quite ‘ready’ “.
Pathetic….beyond pathetic.
It’s called being A LOSER.
Gotta love Sen Shelby and his let them fail mentality.
Funny how he accepted hundreds of millions of dollars to attract the foreign investors to his state. AL has received far far more from the feds then they every put in. Money that came from hard working US auto workers.
And the best part, Shelby got a bail out to SAVE the fisheries in Sept ’07, and again May ’08
Tiny little bit of Hypocrisy?
AL has received far far more from the feds then they every put in. Money that came from hard working US auto workers.
From 1981 to 2005, Alabama received, on average, $1.40 for every $1.00 it paid in to the Federal Treasury. Michigan? Only $0.81 for every $1.00.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html
Sen. Shelby is not only a hypocrit (see Fisheries, MB, Hyundai, etc.), but Alabama is a giant welfare queen. Shelby can spare me his crocodile tears of concern for the Federal purse.
My Bad, I meant to post this lovely link:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4525678.html
Oh, and here’s another one…read “multibillion-dollar” within, hear?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UDO/is_/ai_78476749
Instead, we get this:
http://www.101modifiedcars.com/modified-cars-pictures/cadillac/cadillac-escalade/cadillac-escalade-gmt800-ext-30-inch-rims-front.jpg
But, hey, those fuel-efficient cars are RIGHT around the corner!!! Just give me a few MORE Billion$ of Hep. Please, Hep a brother out…I’m an American!!!!
Ah yes, if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that letting the automakers fail would be “how the free market is supposed to work.”
And since letting the free market work has NEVER EVER EVER failed us before, why not let it do its thing one more time?
Yes, because increased government regulation and nationalization of industry has worked so well in the past. Read up a bit on the British car industry. I hope you would be able to draw the appropriate comparisons to what’s happening today.
Like it or not, the free market has been the best economic engine available. It cannot be denied that it has created the highest amounts of wealth and standards of living in human history.
It is a cyclical process, and occasionally we have exceptionally bad cycles, but more government interference is not the answer. Even at the height of the great depression, America’s GDP far outpaced that of nations with more government influence in the market. Add to that the fact that FDR’s incredible increase in government did absolutely nothing to fix the situation. New studies indicate that FDR’s big government policies may have even extended the depression, and have certainly left America at a disadvantage on the world stage.
America became the powerhouse that it currently is essentially because it was free of destruction wrought on much of Europe and Asia in the Second World War and was not saddled by the devastating effects communism (or tin-pot dictatoring) has on an economy. As the post – WW2 era has come to a close, we’ve begun to see the cracks in our own system more clearly. Countries that understand and embrace the free market are far outpacing us in the important percentages, and soon enough will be in the gross numbers.
Smart capitalism does not equate to removing safety standards, the minimum wage, or anything so dubious. Smart capitalism is about spurring growth and competition through low corporate taxes, less unnecessary regulation, and allowing moribund companies to fail so that smarter, faster ones can take their place. (Or at least forcing them into C11, so they can make the necessary changes to become smarter and faster themselves… )
Guys, the auto market hasn’t been a “free” market since the late 60’s when the friendly gov’t started mandating things like emission controls then CAFE standards, then airbags, then…well you know where it’s going. That was the beginning of the end, especially because at the beginning of all that, foriegn nameplates did not have to comply. Our government has been choking the domestics for nearly 40 years, and now they are surprised that they are failing.
“That’s Gold Jerry, Gold I tell ya!”
Now that they’ve pulled the plug, they think that they won’t have to dig the grave because of a paltry 15b. Nice. If I were Rick last week, I would have said “Ummm, Mr. Politician, maybe you could give back some of the 300billion we’ve spent over the last 40 years meeting your silly regulations and suffering with one of your main supporters in the UAW…” But, alas, he has no balls…
@golf4me,
I’ve been alive since the late 60’s. Please tell me which part of the FMVSS those imported cars didn’t have to meet. Last time I checked, the feds required that ALL cars sold in America meet the same standards (yes, trucks are different than cars).
Even ‘gray market’ product has to (theoretically) comply to the Federal standards.
Sorry, there’s other companies that managed to survive those ‘horrible’ rules.
Didn’t this guy get caught with a few prostitutes?
The simple math is that the government costs automakers more money than the UAW, including legacy cost for retirees. It was the government with the Wagner Act and the NLRB that gave the unions so much power in the first place. It was the government whose tax policy made it cheaper for both the automakers and the UAW to negotiate better benefits instead of higher wages. Big Dick Shelby and his ilk are ultimately more of a problem than Red Ink Rick or UAW Ron.
The top three cost components of building cars in North America are the actual parts, components and materials (like paint) that go into making a car, the cost of meeting government regulations, and the cost of product liability. While the legacy labor costs create a cost disadvantage with the transplants, they still cost less than the price of complying with DOT, EPA, CAFE, insurance against lawsuits, legal fees, lawsuit awards.
While the legacy labor costs factor into the cost differential with the transplants, the simple truth is that politicians and bureaucrats have made the business of building cars a very expensive one.
Congress could easily rewrite the product liability codes or they could link tariffs on imported vehicles and components to opening up Japan to US agricultural products. Instead they pass more onerous CAFE standards that inherently place the domestic manufacturers at a disadvantage.
The US is the only country in the world that shackles it’s own businesses, favoring foreign owned enterprises.
But please, while big Dick Shelby is talking out of both sides of his crooked mouth, tell us about how the UAW are commies (ignoring what a fierce anti-communist Walter Reuther was) and Rick Wagoner is an idiot.
When my son was in high school in South Bend, I’d pick him up and we’d drive to Chicago to watch the Red Wings (usually) beat the Blackhawks. We’d sit up in the nosebleeds and there was one leatherlung who kept screaming at Ethan Moreau about how he couldn’t play, etc. I don’t care one way or another about Moreau, but the fan was acting like an Alabama senator, and when I finally got tired of his screaming, I yelled over to him, “So, you could play better?” Everyone in the nearby sections laughed and the guy shut up for a while.
I know that I couldn’t run GM. How many of you are honest enough to admit the same?
$9 BILLION a month in Iraq, but zero for American car companies? The big 3 surely made mistakes and the labor costs are absurd, but I just don’t understand the republican mindset sometimes.
So does anyone in their right mind believe that this $15b will actually turn around these companies. Is anyone willing to run out and buy a new Sebring “to help save Chrysler???” Or maybe a Cobalt is more your flavor. Will you do your part to help GM/Chrysler?
I didn’t think so.
Bailout or not, these companies will not survive. People keep voting with their pocket books and public outrage over a bailout sure isn’t going to stem that tide. Are we going to indefinately prop up these companies just as a “make work” project for the UAW? Quite frankly, if tax dollars are going to things like that there’s better things to build than GM & Chrysler vehicles.
I say NO Bailout. These companies have not shown any competence to remain competitive, let alone profitable. Like ripping off a band-aid, it will hurt less when collapse happens fast.
Qusus: And since letting the free market work has NEVER EVER EVER failed us before, why not let it do its thing one more time?
I’m not seeing where the free market has failed here.
Car companies that produced too many substandard products over the years and that failed to get their cost structures in line with the competition are being punished by consumers, who have found superior alternatives elsewhere.
The free market is working the way it is supposed to. The problem is that you and the other pro-bailout folks don’t like the results.
That’s not a failure of the free market; it’s just whining on your part.
Detroit Todd: From 1981 to 2005, Alabama received, on average, $1.40 for every $1.00 it paid in to the Federal Treasury. Michigan? Only $0.81 for every $1.00.
A red herring argument that has been debunked this site before.
Two of the biggest federal expenditures are Social Security and Medicare, which are collected largely by senior citizens. Senior citizens prefer to retire to warmer climates. Alabama and other southern states have a much warmer climate than Michigan.
If you are trying to suggest that Alabama can offer subsidies for Hyundai, Mercedes and Honda to set up plants within its borders because of these subsidies, then explain how Michigan can still offer subsidies to GM, Ford and Chrysler when they remodel or upgrade THEIR facilities within the state, even though it is supposedly shortchanged by the federal government.
If you think that only Alabama offers this sort of subsidy, you are wrong. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been quite adept at wringing these subsidies from Michigan and other states, too.
Ronnie Schrieber: But please, while big Dick Shelby is talking out of both sides of his crooked mouth, tell us about how the UAW are commies (ignoring what a fierce anti-communist Walter Reuther was) and Rick Wagoner is an idiot.
I don’t think that UAW members are commies, but I think we can all make a reasonable conclusion regarding Mr. Wagoner’s business abilities by looking at the current state of GM.
Hint – he’s not a business genius.
Ronnie Schrieber: I know that I couldn’t run GM. How many of you are honest enough to admit the same?
We aren’t going to the federal government, asking taxpayers to fork over the money so that we can continue to run GM into the ground.
Therefore, whether any of the anti-bailout folks on this site can run GM is irrelevant.
I would be happy, though, for Mr. Wagoner to admit that he can’t run GM, either.
Porschespeed…show me one pre-1975 import car that has a catalytic converter, an air pump, a PCV, EGR, and 5mph bumpers. There was a lag in the requirements then. Not sure when it was evened-out, my guess was the late 70’s. Heck I have a 1979 LUV that is Non-Catalyst.
I wasn’t talking about FMVSS anywhere in my post?
@Ronnie Schrieber,
If the ‘imports’ were able to sell vehicles in the US that had different safety and/or emissions standards than the ‘domestics’ then you would have a valid point.
THEY CAN’T.
EVERY car sold by a dealer in the US has to meet the same Fed standards, regardless of origin.
Since everybody has to meet the same standards, those onerous regs do not favor the Japanese/Korean transplants.
In fact, they’re the only reason WalMart isn’t selling Chinese Yugo equivalents. And that a LOT of highly desirable Euro market product is not sold here.
Be thankful for those regs, they are the ONLY thing keeping the Chinese at bay.
As far as running GM, getting to president is strictly politics, especially in an environment in excess of 100MM. I know dozens of people who could run GM. If you have ever been involved at the corporate level in a 1B+ company, you know it ain’t rocket science. Apparently you still buy the mythology that CEOs are incredible geniuses. They generally aren’t – though I have met a few who are.
Golf4me… every 1974 model car sold legally in America had the big bumpers. PCVs showed up on most cars in the late ‘60s but many cars, both domestic and foreign, didn’t get catalytic converters until well into the ‘70s.
First thing my Dad did after buying a car in the 70’s was to rip out the converter and open up the fuel fill restricter so he could fit the leaded gas pump in it.
golf4me,
You are missing the point. EVERY car, regardless of manufacturer had to meet the SAME requirements. Non-negotiable. ALL. Since the dawn of the standards.
There was no ‘lag’, no regulations that were somehow less stringent for the imports. None. Ever.
Yes, trucks were/are different. Once again, in the segment, the requirements for ALL manufacturers were, and are, the same.
As a manufacturer, you meet the standards however you can. American manufacturers did it their way, imports did it differently. But they ALL met the same safety and emissions standards.
Sorry, the facts are the facts.
Then explain to me why my Father’s 1973 Nova had ALL of the said equipment and NIETHER of our 1973 imports (Civic and Bug) did? Again, I am pretty darn sure that there were differences for imported vehicles for a window of a few years back then, and not on FMVSS standards, but mostly on the EPA stuff. I could be wrong, but I think I can remember reading articles to that effect in the car mags back then, and there was an outcry in the late 70’s because the Domestics finally cried foul because the imports were selling more and more cars, and they wanted to level the playing field. Nothing based in fact here, but I can swear there was something to that effect going on.? Maybe we can both try to dig up some stuff from that era to find out?
I did some digging and cannot find that there were any differences for the imports, but the more I dug, the more I realized that there were no requirements for cars to have these features, only requirements for a stated outcome. So, some imports may have met ,say, an emission standard in 1973 that did not require them to install a converter but another mfg. might have had to to meet the standard. That’s probably what I’m thinking of. And I still hate my dad for making me help him saw off the converter on his Nova on the snow-covered ground in the middle of February. Damn that was a cold day. He also took off the air pump, pcv, and related plumbing, installed headers and Thrush mufflers. Car sounded good, but never ran the same. My mom is mad at him to this day for it!