What if they held a North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in the middle of Detroit in the middle of the winter and the Japanese manufacturers’ CEOs didn’t go? We’re going to find out what that means this year, as The Detroit News reports. “Toyota Motor Corp. confirmed earlier this week that CEO Katsuaki Watanabe had canceled plans to travel to Detroit… Previously Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. said their chief executives would not attend. The companies did not give reasons, but officials say they expect the crush of reporters covering the Detroit show will focus almost exclusively on the industry downturn and the U.S. automakers’ difficulties.” So they’re running scared? Uh, I think that’s what you call “projection.” Another explanation comes from Joseph Serra, senior co-chairman of the NAIAS and president of Grand Blanc-based Serra Automotive Inc: “What’s possibly happening now is that, out of respect for the Big Three, they don’t want to upstage anything right now.” So they’re running scared? You know, from anti-transplant blowback. That sounds more likely, especially given the transplant’s low profile and quietly supportive demeanor during GM and Chrysler’s very public, shameful jostling at the billion dollar bailout buffet. Another another explanation: all those NAIAS unveils cost big bucks and sap a lot of time from execs’ scheds. Occam’s razor that.
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I hope there will be something to see there! I have three teenaged boys from my church’s youth group counting on me taking them to it, like I do every year.
I wish they’d quit growing (the boys), they’re the reason I’m having to look at a bigger car, they won’t fit in the Oldsmobile!!!
I feel compelled to note that it’s easy to be low-profile and respectful when you have your bought-and-paid-for American Senators doing your dirty work for you… It’s like a Claymation version of Crichton’s “Rising Sun”.
Then again…there was a time I remember when the battle cry was..”If they(the imports) want to sell them here, they ought to build them here”.
Mission Accomplished
I feel compelled to note that it’s easy to be low-profile and respectful when you have your bought-and-paid-for American Senators doing your dirty work for you…
As opposed to being strident and bloviating when you have *your* bought-and-paid-for American Senators doing *your* dirty work?
Pretending that somehow the DET3 are not in the business of buying politicians anymore than any other jumbo-corp is beyond disingenuous. It’s just plain silly.
Indeed. Let’s compare donations from UAW and Big 2.8, and related parties, to those of the transplants and related parties. THEN, we can talk about who is bought and paid for. Seriously, accusing a southern Senator of even needing to be bought to be against the bailouts is an act that is lacking any forethought or regard for the truth. It’s like attacking liberal Senators for protecting large Social Security COLA’s and saying they are bought off by the AARP. In both cases, both parties are acting EXACTLY according to their likely beliefs and campaign positions.
Bring a better game, or stay on the porch.
Seriously, accusing a southern Senator of even needing to be bought to be against the bailouts is an act that is lacking any forethought or regard for the truth.
Not to come off as a complete naif here, but it was my understanding that Mr. Shelby was supposed to be acting in the interest of the country as a whole in these hearings.
What should perhaps disturb you a touch more than it does is the assembled senators’ willingness to put the interests of overseas corporations ahead of the potential interest of this country.
Not to exaggerate too much here, but by your rationale, the senators from Michigan would have voted against WWII in 1941, on the grounds that Hitler had respected Ford and GM’s corporate holdings in Nazi Germany. (And, actually, the story behind that is fascinating, right down to the royalty payments made during the war, but it’s beyond the scope of this discussion.)
Jack Baruth:
Sorry to interrupt the UAW/Detroit executive talking points, but the southern Republicans opposed the auto industry bailout because, well, bailing out bankrupt companies that do not have viable corporate structures is the antithesis of the Republican platform.
Southern Republicans also almost prevented the financial bailout. It isn’t because their states have Japanese banks.
If you need proof of how big-government/socialist the auto bailout is you just need to look at how much people like Nancy Pelosi supported it.
If the big-3 went bankrupt without a well managed Chapter 11s it would have severely interrupted the transplants’ supply chains, destroyed their sales as a huge amount of big-3 cars came on the market at liquidation prices, and, in the worst case for the Japanese, given the Chinese established distribution networks in the US through the purchase of big-3 brands.
Despite the conspiracy theories that some people have concocted that is not something that the Japanese automakers would want.
It is much better for the Japanese if the Detroit automakers slowly die on government welfare.
If the Japanese are lucky the big-3 will not even be able to do Chapter 11s, and will be stuck with their huge debt, bloated dealer networks and oversupply of workers. That will force the big-3 cut development and engineering, leading to slow deaths as their products become more and more inferior (not that all of their products are inferior now, but they soon will be as development and engineering, as expenses that are not required by state law or UAW contrats, are cut first). Just like British Leyland.
I am hoping that the Japanese are not lucky, and that successful Chapter 11 reorganizations can be achieved in the next administration.
Pretending that somehow the DET3 are not in the business of buying politicians anymore than any other jumbo-corp is beyond disingenuous. It’s just plain silly.
If you check out opensecrets.org, the domestic automakers are way down on the list in terms of who’s giving money to politicians. While they aren’t insignificant sums, there are many corporations and unions who give much larger sums than Detroit affiliated concerns. In terms of individual companies or organizations who have contributed over the past 20 years, the UAW shows up at #16 on the list, GM is 73rd, and Ford & Chrysler aren’t even in the top 100.
1 AT&T Inc $40,624,392
2 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees $40,430,870
3 National Assn of Realtors $34,487,078
4 Goldman Sachs $30,350,777
5 American Assn for Justice (trial lawyers) $29,920,189
6 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers $29,278,894
7 National Education Assn $29,242,855
8 Laborers Union $27,697,339
9 Service Employees International Union $26,849,872
10 Carpenters & Joiners Union $26,501,308
11 Teamsters Union $26,468,070
12 Communications Workers of America $26,015,739
13 American Medical Assn $25,890,349
14 American Federation of Teachers $25,827,993
15 Citigroup Inc $25,519,554
16 United Auto Workers $25,304,550
At a little over $10 million, GM is a relative piker. Note that AFSCME and SEIU, the two largest public employees’ unions gave a total of $67 million dollars. This is just for congressional and federal elections. They give many millions more to politicians at the state and local levels who end up negotiating contracts with those same unions. Compared to that level of corruption and conflict of interest, the UAW is as pure as the driven snow.
Jack Baruth,
I didn’t realize that you were the selfsame Count Chocunackh, a member of the Black Metal V8olvo (I still think the first O is superfluous and that V8lovo works better graphically) race team that I supplied with embroidered patches. Race in good health and if you need any patches or other work for Green Baron, please let me know. I can even source flame resistant thread (well, if the customer is willing to pay for it – flame resistant thread that meets specs for children’s sleepwear, 500 deg melt point, is twice as expensive as standard poly or rayon thread, actual Nomex thread with a 675 deg char point is about 9 times the cost of standard thread).
Despite the conspiracy theories that some people have concocted that is not something that the Japanese automakers would want.
It is much better for the Japanese if the Detroit automakers slowly die on government welfare.
no_slushbox,
You’re assuming that big Dick, Shelby (former Dixiecrat, now R-Mercedes) knows enough about the auto industry to understand that Toyota, Honda and Hyundai favor federal aid to the domestics. That would actually require some thought and analysis. He’s doing what he thinks is in those companies’ interest, not necessarily doing their bidding.
Shelby is not necessarily an ideological Republican. He lines up on whichever side of the aisle will butter his bread. He was first elected to the US Senate as a Dixiecrat Democrat, but switched parties after the political wind was blowing in a different direction and Republicans took control of Congress in the 1994 midterm elections. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think committee appointments had something to do with his switching parties.
While Shelby may not be financially beholden to Mercedes, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai, he does have a record of legislating to serve his own personal financial interest. He’s used his role as chairman and later ranking opposition member of the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, & Urban Affairs to oppose legislation reforming the title insurance industry to consumers’ benefit. Shelby earns between $100,000 and $1,000,000 per year from Tuscaloosa Title Co. Inc., a title insurer he founded in 1974 while he was already serving in the Alabama state senate. But sure, go ahead and accuse the Detroit automakers of abusing the system by buying influence.
It’s no conspiracy theory to say that locating their transplant operations in the anti-union, industry free, South was part of a deliberate strategy by the Japanese and later German and Korean automakers to gain political power in the US to offset the combined power of the UAW and the Detroit automakers.
Of all people, Toyondissan know what kabuki theater is. The dance they did back in the 1980s, making it seem like building plants here was a concession on their part in the era of “voluntary import restrictions” masterfully finessed the UAW who invited those plants thinking they’d be able to organize them. I have no doubt that from the moment the first Toyota rolled off a ship at Long Beach, the Toyoda family had intentions to build plants here. That’s how things have been done since Isaac Singer, you build where you sell. Henry Ford didn’t ship Model Ts to Europe, he built the plants there that Jack mentioned above. I’m sure Toyota planned the same from the beginning. Sure, unlike Honda, Toyota was willing to play ball with MITI, which is primarily concerned with exporting Japanese goods and protecting the JDM. But Toyota is about making money. They may be Japanese, but they are first and foremost businesspeople.
The political opposition against imports ginned up by the UAW in the 1970s and 1980s only accelerated
the process and presented Toyondissan with the opportunity to offset that political opposition by employing Americans in states where Detroit had little political power. Yes, there are GM and Ford plants in Kentucky, but the Corvette plant in Bowling Green is not a high volume plant employing huge numbers of people and over the years Ford has cut the wage roll at Kentucky Truck that builds the Super Duty pickups. Likewise, Nissan employs more people in Tennessee than GM’s Saturn plant in Spring Hill. As it is, the locals in Spring Hill resent the fact that the plant was staffed with laid off UAW workers from elsewhere in the country.
So no conspiracy. Just a deliberate effort to get some political leverage.
Don’t bother with the implication that I’m a racist and fear the inscrutable enigmatic Asians. That would just be one of those anti-Detroit “talking points”. If you’re truly concerned about racism, then do something about the folks on your side of the debate who talk about people “in the north” getting “welfare” and the folks who oppose bailing out “minority states”.
I am hoping that the Japanese are not lucky, and that successful Chapter 11 reorganizations can be achieved in the next administration.
Sorry, but based on your comments here and the ire towards Detroit you’ve displayed, pardon me if I’m skeptical about your good wishes towards the domestics.
BTW, Robert, I don’t know where you got that photo, but if it’s from the NAIAS it’s either from the Charity Preview that raises millions of dollars for Childrens’ Hospital in Detroit, or it’s from VW’s display during the NAIAS media preview. VW is the only display where I’ve seen the caterers wear chefs’ toques. So it’s not the Detroit automakers who are splurging in that photo, it’s either a charity fundraiser or someone spending some Porsche family money.
Actually, little of the money spent by VW on their catering at the NAIAS stays in Detroit other than hotel rooms for the staff and some food supplies. That’s a Lufthansa catering crew and they are flown in from Germany for the show. When I saw the Lufthansa tags I asked if they worked in their commissary at JFK and they said, no, they were based in Germany.
I guess its a shock for some that senators who are not from Michigan are going to do what they feel is in their states and their political interests and not what is in Michigan’s interests. Yes they are suppose to do what is best for the nation as a whole but no one unfortunately seems to do that and even with that not everyone necessarily agrees with the senators from Michigan let alone Alabama.
I read (probably here at TTAC) that Honda was threatening to move its headquarters off shore if the Japanese govt could not halt the increase in value of the yen.
Instead of bailing out the big three, use the same money (say 100- 200 Billion, capital B) as incentive to relocate Honda headquarters to the US. I have no doubt in five years Honda could then be no 1 in North American sales. They could also absorb the relevant remains of Detroit.
Good. Let Honda and Toyota stay put in Mother Japan. And for all of you whining about the “bailout” of GM and Chrysler- it’s your fault. If you took a look at domestic offerings instead of fleeing to imports, none of our taxpayer dollars would be spent in this manner.
Bridge2far :
If you took a look at domestic offerings instead of fleeing to imports, none of our taxpayer dollars would be spent in this manner.
Substitute the word “bought” for “took a look at,” and truer words have never been spoken.
Question: whose fault would that be? Just wonderin’…
# Bridge2far :
December 26th, 2008 at 9:25 am
“Good. Let Honda and Toyota stay put in Mother Japan. And for all of you whining about the “bailout” of GM and Chrysler- it’s your fault. If you took a look at domestic offerings instead of fleeing to imports, none of our taxpayer dollars would be spent in this manner.”
But..what if people DID look at them and THEN decided they didnt want them?
I really dont think people “flee” to imports. They shop for deals, remember dealership experiences, look at resale values, and compare service histories, and make a purchasing decision. If consumers purchase a car from other than the Big3, whose fault is that?
It’s been said that Detroit loses money on their passenger cars. If that’s true, could it be construed that by buying an import nameplate, is the consumer actually doing Detroit a favor?
When many domestic car dealerships added import lines to their offerings, were they being unpatriotic? Could it be said that they too were “fleeing” to the imports?
If imports are now the default choice for many consumers, I’m sure there are plenty of reasons for it.
Ronnie Schreiber:
The transplants located in the southern states because the southern states have right to work laws. It’s that simple. The transplants knew that UAW=death and located appropriately. It was never worth it for the big-3 to try to open non-union factories in the south because when the first non-union factory opened the UAW would have shut all their northern factories down.
You go through a lot of effort explain Shelby’s political past, but you never deny that his vote on the bailout was in line with the Republican platform, because it was.
I’ve never attributed racism to either side of the bailout debate, so I have no idea why you brought up race in response to my arguments, possibly to distort what I said.
The bailout supporters are the ones that do not care about the domestics. They don’t want the domestics to be made viable, especially at their expense, they just don’t want the carcasses taken away before they are done feeding.
“Sorry, but based on your comments here and the ire towards Detroit you’ve displayed, pardon me if I’m skeptical about your good wishes towards the domestics.”
The above statement is more of the child-in-the-paternalistic-relationship attitude that the bailout supporters and recipients have. [chid stomping] “Daddy, if you don’t buy me a pony you don’t love me.”
I don’t care about Detroit either way. But it is bad for the automakers that they are centralized in Detroit.
In Japan and Germany the automakers are not centralized in one city, and their automakers can at least make money when the economy is good (something no Detroit automaker could consistently do).
The most successful information technology company is in Redmond, Washington, not Silicon Valley, and one of the most successful investment companies is in Omaha, Nebraska, not Manhattan. Locating all of the major automakers in one city has created a lot of inbreed disorders.
Chrysler is dead. Any government “assistance” to Chrysler will entail the government creating a new automaker from scratch.
Ford and GM are going concerns with some very competitive products, but the only way that either of them have a light at the end of the tunnel is if they drop tens-of-billions of debt, thousands of dealers and tens-of-thousands of workers in Chapter 11s.
I personally think that the government should assist Ford and GM through those reorganizations to make sure that liquidation does not occur.
That is a lot more than I think most bankrupt companies deserve, so please don’t use this contrived “good wishes” rhetoric. I wish Ford and GM more “good wishes” than I wish any other corporations.
Speaking of good wishes, I haven’t heard you supporting bailouts for any corporations other than the Detroit sacred cows.
Perhaps if you created a list of bankrupt corporations across the country, and how many billions you think the federal government should give each of them, people would be convinced that you simply want “good wishes” for all bankrupt corporations, and not just special treatment for Detroit.
Hey Ronnie,
I’m gonna need all that flameproof thread, and then some, if I’m going to survive on TTAC! My enormous Black Metal patch has terrified my competitors ever since I put it on :) I’ll be contacting you soon as I have a new race suit for 2009.
The Charity Preview is a fantastic event, and I attended each year from 2003 through 2006. It’s a great place to see intoxicated trophy wives falling out of their dresses.
I know that this is going to sound like a nutty idea to some people, but I’m willing to bet that Detroit could eventually become profitable again if they made cars that people wanted to buy and sold them for more than it cost to build them.
I know, I know, it surprises the hell out of me, too, that such gems as the Pontiac G6 and the Sebring aren’t flying off the shelves like iPods, but that’s how things go sometimes.
I mean, I really can’t see why anyone would prefer better vehicles that retain their value. The world is a crazy place.
The bailout supporters are the ones that do not care about the domestics. They don’t want the domestics to be made viable, especially at their expense, they just don’t want the carcasses taken away before they are done feeding.
So now I’m a carrion eater?
I’m sorry if not wanting to see one of America’s great technical resources, the GM Tech Center, dismantled makes me a vulture.
I’ve said before that I’m a reluctant supporter of aid to the domestic automakers. If we had some kind of coherent national industrial policy it might be different. Instead of helping our industries be competitive through appropriate tax and other policies, we’ve danced to Wall Street’s tune of short term profits, encouraging outsourcing, offshoring, and focusing of distribution and sales, not manufacturing, which is the engine of wealth.
“Sorry, but based on your comments here and the ire towards Detroit you’ve displayed, pardon me if I’m skeptical about your good wishes towards the domestics.”
The above statement is more of the child-in-the-paternalistic-relationship attitude that the bailout supporters and recipients have. [chid stomping] “Daddy, if you don’t buy me a pony you don’t love me.”
Complete non-sequitor. You’ve said nasty things about Detroit and the people who live here, so I’m skeptical about it when you say that you want to see the domestics be healthy and thrive.
I don’t care about Detroit either way.
Third world wasteland shithole that it is, right?
But it is bad for the automakers that they are centralized in Detroit.
Is it bad that American filmmakers are centralized in Los Angeles? Is it bad that American advertising agencies are centralized on Madison Ave.? Is it bad that British financial firms are centralized in the City of London (and Canary Wharf, also in Londoon)?
In Japan and Germany the automakers are not centralized in one city, and their automakers can at least make money when the economy is good (something no Detroit automaker could consistently do).
The Detroit automakers were incredibly profitable in the growing economies of the 1950s and 1960s. Even as structural costs became an issue, they made money, a lot of it, in the 1990s. You’ll point to recent years when the Detroit companies were not profitable as the housing and investment bubbles were expanding but those are exceptions to the general trend in the post WWII era.
The most successful information technology company is in Redmond, Washington, not Silicon Valley, and one of the most successful investment companies is in Omaha, Nebraska, not Manhattan. Locating all of the major automakers in one city has created a lot of inbreed disorders.
Microsoft has significant operations in the Silicon Valley. I’m sure that Berkshire Hathaway, and its subsidiaries and companies it controls have offices in NYC. Buffett isn’t making GEICO move to Nebraska.
I once asked a designer for Hyundai/Kia how come so many automakers have design facilities in California. He said, “Designers like the beach and pretty girls, too.” If you need particular talent you have to locate certain places. If you make movies, the technical trades are in the LA area. If you make airplanes, Kansas and Seattle (if you note, Boeing didn’t move their technical operations to Chicago with their HQ).
Speaking of good wishes, I haven’t heard you supporting bailouts for any corporations other than the Detroit sacred cows.
I’ve spent far less time advocating a bailout than I have trying to debunk bullshit about the domestic car industry. I’m a reluctant supporter of loans because I think a collapse of their supply chain would seriously harm this country by wiping out a good chunk of what remains of our manufacturing base. Even more dangerous would be the impact that collapse would have on our dedicated defense industries.
I believe the term I’ve used for the automotive bailout is “shit sandwich”. Do I believe that supporting Stalin was a good idea in general? Of course not. Do I think it was an unfortunate necessity to supply the USSR with weapons and technology to fight the Germans? Absolutely.
My main objection to a Ch 11 for GM has been that folks won’t buy a car from a bankrupt company (yes, if they collapsed entirely people would buy the distressed merchandise but at ridiculously low prices that would mean no other manufacturers would sell any cars for 4-6 months which I’m not sure that even Toyota or Honda could survive). Hindsight is 20/20, but the last three months have seen every Detroit hater ride their particular hobbyhorse at full gallop. The reputation of GM, in particular, has been more damaged by all this than a Ch 11 filing would have done.
Bridge2Far>
When I was car shopping (my only new car purchase), I looked for an all wheel drive/”rally bred” car. The american manufacturers didn’t have ANYTHING in that category. I _DID_ look & didn’t find anything.
When I bought a motorcycle I was looking in the sportbike category. What sportbikes are fairly common, good bang/$ ratio, decently reliable & have cheap parts?
I came up with Honda, Suzuki, and Kawaski. What American option is there? Buell??
I know, I know, it surprises the hell out of me, too, that such gems as the Pontiac G6 and the Sebring aren’t flying off the shelves like iPods, but that’s how things go sometimes.
The G6 may not be as well developed as the Aura or Malibu but it’s not the POS that the Sebring is. When the G6 was introduced it actually sold pretty well and GM had to add a shift at the Lake Orion plant. It’s a decent platform. Would GM have been wiser to make a single version and devote all the resources in terms of development and marketing to the Malibu? Sure. The Aura had good buzz when it came out, but then the focus and ad dollars all went to the ‘Bu.
I’m amazed at how little blame Trevor Creed has gotten for a string of very poorly executed cars that have come out of Chrysler – Caliber, Compass, Sebring, Nitro etc. The guy in charge of product now at Chrysler, Frank Klegon, is a decent guy and a car guy through and through. Before he became VP of product he was in charge of Chrysler’s BOF stuff and the Ram is a competitive pickup. Unfortunately for him, a lot of crap was already in the pipeline when he was made VP and Daimler had hollowed out Chrysler, not giving it the resources to develop competitive product.
I don’t see how Chrysler will have enough money to develop new midsize and compact sedans. That’s why I think they should shrink to just those segments where they indeed have competitive product. Do what they can do well, do it profitably and don’t try to be all things to all consumers. Honda doesn’t compete in all segments. Hell, Nissan and Toyota took a few swings at the fullsize truck market and whiffed. The Tundra, which is a good truck, failed to meet Toyota sales expectations even before the economy tanked.
It’s ironic you mention the iPod in connection with Detroit. Detroit supposedly invented the concept of planned obsolescence but Apple perfected it to a high art. The cult of Apple is amazing. I mean, they make some very cool products and I’ve always personally preferred the Mac OSs to WinTel (though I still use Win98 for legacy software reasons) but Apple does stuff that would be seen as exploiting customers if anyone else was doing it.
Microsoft has its own flaws, but I can put third party software on my computer without paying MS a cut. Can you say the same about iPhones and Apple?
yes: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hack+iphone&btnG=Google+Search
and boy howdy, you sure do seem to be worried a lot about being called a racist.
Ronnie Schreiber:
We are surprisingly probably somewhat in agreement in one area, I do not think that GM or Ford can be allowed to liquidate.
Unfortunately since Bush punted the issue I think that this situation is going to become very messy in the next administration.
The bondholders, UAW and dealers all have legitimate claims. Unfortunately a lot of those interest groups would probably rather see the big-3 go down than let go of their claims (what I meant with my “carcasses taken away before they are done feeding” remark). While their claims are legitimate, they are not the taxpayers’ problem.
I think a big opportunity for bankruptcy, but then quick government intervention to prevent liquidation, has been lost. I’ve never doubted that the government would underwrite the warranties to uphold consumer confidence, and provide whatever post-bankruptcy financing is necessary.
The surveys that showed that people would not buy from a company in Chapter 11 seriously underestimated consumers. Bush or Obama on TV saying that we will stand by the warranties while the companies reorganize, and that GM and Ford will continue as viable companies, would bring people running into the dealerships.
Right now the general public is instead just sitting around thinking that if GM and Chrysler don’t get their acts together by March they will go bankrupt, and in the “poof” sense, not the reorganization sense.
We are not in a political environment where liquidation of Ford or GM should be allowed, or would be. Unfortunately in the next administration I do not think we will be in a political environment where the necessary debt/brand/dealer/employee cutting will be allowed.
Seeing Gettlefinger blatantly state that the bailout concessions will mean nothing in the next administration, or LaNeve act like there isn’t a single brand that should not be kept, makes it look like the idea of cost restructuring the Detroit automakers to make them competitive/viable is just a joke.
Bad management has killed the Big 3. If they had started putting their own house in order five years ago, they might have had a chance. Harvard MBA’s (Waggoner) living high on the hog. A bailout will be attempted, but you can’t force people to buy cars they don’t want. There probably will be only one of the three left two years from now. Chrysler should be stripped of debt and sold to Nissan, as the two product lines would merge well.
# creamy :
December 26th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
yes: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hack+iphone&btnG=Google+Search
Proves my point. If you have to use a hack to install third party software, that means that Apple doesn’t want you to do it and has made it necessary to use hacks to get around their restrictions. Hardly a ringing endorsement of how consumer friendly Apple is.
I’ll see your “hack” search and raise you a brick. Apple may disable your phone if you put software on it that doesn’t give any revenue to Apple.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=iphone+brick&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images
http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/10/iphone_brick_de.html
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/10/09/judge-green-lights-iphone-brick-lawsuit
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/iphone/apple-says-unlocked-iphones-will-brick-after-software-update-+-what-does-it-mean-303171.php
Like I said, I like Apple products but the acolytes of Steve Jobs give me the willies.
and boy howdy, you sure do seem to be worried a lot about being called a racist.
You’re not the one being called a xenophobic scoundrel.
Ronnie Schreiber :
That’s MR. Xenophobic Scoundrel. And did I really call you a scoundrel? How… Brideshead Revisited.
(If I did, this is my first and only warning.)
Robert,
No, you didn’t precisely call me a scoundrel, though I think it was pretty clear who you were talking about.
I also didn’t call my sister a c*&t. I just said something about a blankety blank c%^t as I slammed the car door. Didn’t make a difference. The ex was still mortified and I still had to genuflect. A year later her now late husband approached me and rather graciously and gallantly suggested that I apologize. I told him I’d already done so and wasn’t about to do it again just because she didn’t accept it.
As old e.e. said, “there is some shit I will not eat”.
Now had you used the word “rake” or “rogue” I would have considered it a charming affectation.
The G6 may not be as well developed as the Aura or Malibu but it’s not the POS that the Sebring is.
These are the wrong comparisons. We should compare the G6 to the cars in this class that people actually buy.
The Aura, Malibu and Sebring aren’t on that list. The Camry, Accord and Altima top that list. If Detroit wants to lead the class, they have to beat the leaders, instead of dueling with the bottom feeders.
ronnie – you have to stop arguing in circles, man!
discussing things with you is like talking with my third grader. keep this up it’ll be the great poopyhead/doodyhead debate ’08.
Jack B,
You not only missed my point, you misrepresented it. I don’t know how to make it any simpler. The bailouts are FUNDAMENTALLY ANATHEMA to the beliefs of economic conservatives (of which we still have a few in the GOP). It is many of ours belief the the bailouts are BAD for the country, the whole country, and not just blue states. It’s not about any corporate interests, it’s about the overall health and welfare of the country. I suppose you think the same Senators support gun rights because of checks from the NRA? Sorry, but I doubt it. They most likely support gun rights because they BELIEVE in gun rights. GET OVER IT.
You can make a rational argument in favor of the bailouts, but accusing the southern senators of putting the transplants ahead of Detroit for any reason other than ideology is going to need evidence on the level of a smoking gun. It’s an intellectually disonest, wholly partisan, load of demagoguery and BS. It has NO place in productive discourse.
Hi Landcrusher,
Let’s turn the volume on this down a bit, shall we? This is the second time you’ve devoted a nontrivial portion of your post to whaling on my presumed motives. Let’s assume, for the moment, that we are both interested in finding the truth and go from there.
I’m a bit of an “economic conservative” too; small business owner, defiant member of the middle class, solid in my belief that everything over a modest sales tax amounts to coercion at gunpoint, because it pretty much is coercion at gunpoint.
With that being said, I’m not ready to live in a world where the government interferes whole-heartedly in the affairs of the auto business right up to the point where they need help and then turns conservative.
Do you really believe that Mr. Shelby and his constituents would be so quick to beat on the UAW if we didn’t have Card Check coming our way? ‘Cause that’s what the anti-bailout folks are really doing: trying to create a situation where the Big Three use bankruptcy to cut the UAW’s throat, just like the airlines used bankruptcy to escape their pension obligations. Everybody knows that if the UAW can survive the next 18 months they will be able to unionize the South. Shelby et al don’t think they can stop Card Check and the fallout legislatively, so they will let Detroit twist and do it that way.
True economic conservatives wouldn’t support CAFE, wouldn’t allow the amount of gas tax we have nowadays, wouldn’t mandate a frankly absurd amount of safety equipment on one hand while berating the manufacturers for heavy, fuel-thirsty cars on the other side, wouldn’t provide incentives to hybrids or E85, wouldn’t permit the dealers to write state law the way they’ve been doing for the last sixty years… the list goes on. The automotive landscape as we see it today is twisted and shaped by legislation and government intervention. You can also argue that the Big Three are in trouble largely because of financial problems having nothing to do with their own actions.
I find this late-innings talk of economic conservatism to be disingenuous — not on your part, but on the part of the people you are supporting. Show me a world where the taxpayers didn’t just guarantee ten-figure payoffs for bank heads — show me a world where we don’t force lenders to give away home loans and then slap their hands for doing it — and that’s a world in which I’m more comfortable letting manufacturers fail.
# creamy :
ronnie – you have to stop arguing in circles, man!
Please explain how I’m “arguing in circles”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. If by that you mean I’m using circular logic, please demonstrate where I have used a premise as evidence or an argument.
The fact that it is possible, by using a hack or workaround, to install unauthorized apps is no proof that Apple permits it. To the contrary.
The fact that you have to use a hack to install unauthorized apps (read: apps that don’t give Apple a cut of their revenue) is proof in an of itself that Apple doesn’t want you to be able to use your property as you see fit. If it was permitted by Apple, you wouldn’t need to use a hack. The fact that furthermore Apple will disable your phone if you do so makes that all the more clear. Did you bother reading those links?
A US judge has ruled that a lawsuit against Apple and AT&T can go ahead, despite Apple’s request to have the suit dismissed. The $1.2m suit alleges that Apple and AT&T knowingly sabotaged unlocked iPhone handsets with the release of the iPhone 1.1.1 software update. The suit claims that the companies violated US trade and copyright laws which had allowed users to alter their phones. The plaintiffs are suing both companies for violating federal antitrust laws.
discussing things with you is like talking with my third grader. keep this up it’ll be the great poopyhead/doodyhead debate ‘08.
It’s nice to see that you’re capable of discussing things like an adult, without resorting to ad hominum.
I’m sure that your third grader is special in their own way and will be a productive member of society to the best of his or her abilities.
I’ve known plenty of 9 and 10 year olds who can hold their own in a logical argument. They can also pick up when someone uses a childish argument to claim that someone else is acting childishly. I’m not making a general statement about third graders as it is possible that the third graders that I have known have had greater cognitive skills and reasoning abilities that the ones you hang with.
I suppose that when one has children smarter than they are, as I have, one is less likely to assume that they are not capable.
And that’s Mr. Poopyhead to you.
I love the word “nontrivial”.
Jack,
True conservatives wouldn’t mandate wage controls either, or tell American industries to dance to the tune of foreign companies or ignore the threat to our defense industries by the collapse of our manufacturing base. I’m really disappointed how some conservatives are acting.
Do you really believe that Mr. Shelby and his constituents would be so quick to beat on the UAW if we didn’t have Card Check coming our way?
I agree that fear of the impending Card Check legislation and a desire to make the UAW look impotent is a factor, but some folks hate unions so much that they’d act like Shelby (and some of the online union haters) EFCA or not. I’m not great fan of organized labor as you can see from this piece I wrote, http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/myths-of-organized-labor/, but some folks really hate unions. I see people calling the UAW “socialists” and “commies”, completely ignoring how Walter Reuther fought tooth and nail to keep communists out of the UAW.
Detroit is what Jay Nordlinger of the National Review called an idée fixe, a universal bogey. Just as the Jew is both a communist and a capitalist, and the American both a materialist and a puritan,. When the domestics made money, they didn’t invest in new technologies, and when they don’t make money they are poorly managed. They are condemned for selling people the vehicles they wanted (SUVs, pickups) and they are condemned for not selling the vehicles people want (though Toyota is having problems now too). The UAW is slammed for making too much money and for being communists.
Aesop said that any excuse will serve a tyrant.
Jack,
I did not know or care about your motives. If you are interested in truth, then you need to realize that the argument you presented has nothing to do with truth, or pursuit of it. I am passionate about this issue (can you tell?) because I see how much pain we have in the world because people are allowed to throw out arguments that most everyone should have been trained to see through. Like I said (you can check) there are rational arguments for the bail outs. As soon as you throw out this one though, I am gonna point out that your emperor is wearing nothing but freckles.
Now, back to motives. I don’t know how you know the motives of the folks in TN or their senator, but that argument gets you nowhere either. It’s invalid. It’s ad hominem.
On top of that, I can tell you that the people of TN are most likely against card check (I have lived in there). Southern states are mostly right to work, and they won’t like the Feds trying to trump their laws. If they really are trying to manuever against the UAW to prevent card check, they are both playing fair, and doing the right thing. That is how our government works, and it is not dishonest.
Don’t get me started on card check. I don’t know what kind of business you own, but with card check you really don’t own it anymore. It will be like owning real estate – it’s really the government’s, and you are really just leasing it. My businesses have no employees other than me, so I guess I may be somewhat immune.
I am sympathetic to some of your other arguments, and even proposed that if the 2.8 had defended themselves by taking on Congress and blaming state and federal regulation for much of their woes that I would be inclined to support them. I am not happy with the bank bailouts (though I was sympathetic to buying a bunch of mortgage derivatives in order to “restart” the market for them). I simply won’t go with 2 wrongs making a right. The government did cause a lot of the problems, and it was both sides of the aisle at fault.
How about we try to get it all right, all the time, and only settle when we have to? I don’t think we have to give the 2.8 any more money. I really don’t think it’s fair to Ford to bailout the others. How about when one of the others fails we use a lot less money to keep Ford’s suppliers sending them parts. That would be a bail out I could get behind. That would also keep the UAW in a few jobs, but I will live with that if I have to.
Overall, if you HAVE to have a domestic car company, then keep the strongest one and let the others fail.