I come before the Best and Brightest in search of technical enlightenment and Zen master like clarity. The problem? My tweaked Lincoln Mark VIII is losing its factory-fragile transmission, leaving a hot mess of smoky-pink fluid everywhere I park. So my car’s looking for a bailout, and spending a couple grand for my (don’t laugh) dream transmission is now a reality. A more efficient torque converter is on the must-have list: but what stall speed do I chooser? I’m looking for a converter that’ll send the Lincoln down the righteous path of lower ETs with effortless highway cruising and no drama when stuck in traffic. I think a 2500 stall unit is good for street/strip duties, but perhaps its too conservative. What about a 3000 stall converter? The fate of my timeslips (and checkbook) is in your hands. Thank you.
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Sajeev, not my area of expertise. Something to consider: will a higher stall-speed TC meant for strip/street use still have the lock-up feature? Without that, cruising on the highway will not be quite as “effortless” (in terms of efficiency).
I’m pretty stupid about such things (if you need to know anything about the materials involved however, I am in that field).
In your position I would just go with the closest replacement to what you have in it. If what you had worked, and worked well, it would make sense to try and stick with it.
http://www.summitracing.com/streetandstrip/tech_content.asp?ID={7B20B3C7-AF72-42B3-9583-6BD43F224310} is a very informative article. Basically, you need to match the stall speed to the torque peak of the engine.
Sajeev,
A good stall converter will depend on whether you value true “streetability” over max ET’s or vice versa. For someone who wants “good” max times with the ability to drive the Lincoln on a Saturday night with the kids then a 2500 max stall unit would be the max you want to go. Too high a stall will be a waste of money, and your reliability factor will be decreased as well.
Try a Dacco unit, from Dacco Transmissions-Cookeville TN. Bulletproof!
A former Dacco Manager,
Knoxville
Paul, lock-up converters are available in many stall speeds. Cars like the Mercury Marauder used a 2500 stall with lock up. I found a place in town that custom makes converters with billet parts (backing plate, piston) for about $800. I just need to figure out how aggressive a stall I want, and pull the trigger on it.
I wonder if this question might actually stump our B&B! Could that actually happen???
The correct stall depends on the way your engine is tuned, or will be in the future. If your engine has it’s max torque at 1,500rpm, and max rpm at 5,000rpm, a 3000rpm stall will give you very little usable revs. Low stalls are usually fine for street use, and for even highly tuned engines, 2,500 is about as high as people usually go. 3000rpm stalls are used only on highly tuned high reving race engines.
How shameful that I actually doubted the B&B. This car makes decent power below 3500rpm, but the guys who race pretty seriously in Lincolns (its true) go for 3000 or above. I am not that serious so something between 2000-3000 is what I need.
tdoyle : A good stall converter will depend on whether you value true “streetability” over max ET’s or vice versa. For someone who wants “good” max times with the ability to drive the Lincoln on a Saturday night with the kids then a 2500 max stall unit would be the max you want to go.
I think you nailed what I want out of a torque converter. But if I had kids, odds are I’d have a wife that’d make me sell the car right about now.
So 2500 it is. The local shop says they can build one in the 2500-2800 range, a range below the 2800-3000 design they have. They come highly recommended on the forums, so I feel a bit better now.
Here:
http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/selectingconverter.html
Although in my quick Google search it looks like the more interesting challenge/conversion, if your transmission has died, would be to try to hook up one of the new Ford 5 or 6 speed automatics to your Mark VIII.
The Mopar and Diesel crowd talks about Sun Coast Torque converters.
They make a solid replacement for the notoriously short lived model that is behind the 545REF in my Liberty CRD.
A torque converter with a higher stall speed can give you a gain in performance (especially from a standing start) but invariably at some loss in efficiency and fuel economy (everywhere else). Unless you have altered the engine’s operating range you are best off with the original stall speed for road use in most cases.
Performance enhancements for everyday street vehicles typically focus on increased torque and low end performance. That’s the smart route, anyway. Greater torque will also naturally increase the effective stall speed of the torque converter — there is more force acting against the mass of the vehicle, creating more slippage between the converter elements before the converter fully engages.
For optimum quarter-mile performance, ideally you want a torque converter with a stall speed right on the engine’s torque peak. However, that converter will be a nightmare for road use. On the street you want to aim for 50 to 80 percent of the torque peak… and except from a standing start, where you are in that 50-80 range is not terribly critical.
@tdoyle
Are you sure that those Dacco torque converters are really bullet proof? I’ve fired armor piercing ammo at a number of torque converters, and have yet to find one that is really bullet proof.
Here is a pic of my Mosin-Nagant M38, a chunk of concrete, a GM torque converter, and a cast iron small block Chevy engine.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3j6z2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/M38.jpg
Here is a pic of vintage 7.62X54R cold war armor piercing ammo — genuine Joe Stalin Brand.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3j6z2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/54R.jpg
In this pic, you can clearly see that neither the concrete, nor the torque converter could stand up to that AP ammo. After I was done with the torque converter, I proceeded to shoot the engine to pieces as well. Remember to always ask your torque converter supplier if their products can stand up to the surplus Russian munitions test.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3j6z2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/DD.jpg
skor….you rock.
Sajeev Mehta…what an oddball car choice. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not knocking it. What I remember about this car is independent suspension, 4.whatever liter v-8 and a safety design brief that read something like, “when it hits a volvo, everyone in that volvo must die as a result.” I like it.
There is a burning question that I’m sure every car guy wants to know though…how does it stack up against the Camry SE? Could you do a trackshoot out, maybe post some ring times?
I kid…sort of.
@skor….
Hey, where do you live? I want to live near you when the next “Revolution” starts. I don’t own any guns yet but I think I might join the club.
Spyder
Don’t get me wrong, I love that car, and am a big Lincoln
fan, but that is easily the most insane QOTD I have seen since I’ve been coming to this site. Skor’s response, however, is the most sane QOTD response I have seen.
excuse my repeat post…I am now geeking out on Lincoln Mark VIII’s, having neither seen nor heard one for (obviously) far too long. According to wikipedia your car comes with “theater lighting”, “puddle lights” and “a more prominent power dome bulge” which all sounds very boogie nights-ish. Can you confirm?
Sajeev,
The Mark VIII came with about a 2500 rpm torque converter. I’d replace it with the same.
The Mark VIII websites, which I used to frequent when I had one of these, has a couple of people who provide quality rebuilds for the Ford 4R70W trans.
If you really want to improve the ETs of the Mark VIII, a lower rear gear is the most effective change. You can buy the entire diff unit with a lower gear relatively reasonably.(Or at least you could 3-4 years ago when I was playing with these cars). You might find a diff from a T Bird Super Coupe, which, I think, ran a 3.73. But lowering the gear ratio makes the drive shaft spin faster for a given road speed, and the driveshaft of the Mark VIII is already too close to its critical speed. You will probably need an aftermarket shaft, without the rubber inner liner, which will probably increase the NVH.
If the trans is leaking fluid, it is quite likely that you have a broken line. Fixing the line(s) is a lot cheaper than replacing the trans.
These transmissions are very sensitive to the fluid used. They DEMAND Mercon V, despite what the owner’s manual and the dipstick say. Ford has released several TSBs on this, but nobody seems to read them. They also demand being filled to the right level. Too much or too little and there will be problems.
Are you planning on doing this yourself? If so, get and read a service manual first. Removal of the fuel tank, and partial disassembly of the rear suspension are some of the preliminary steps.
The aftermarket makes a kit to replace the Ford trans with a GM 4L60E, or 700R4. But making the electronics work is a nightmare. I have driven a Mark VIII with this conversion and it is a definate improvement.
I have also driven a Mark VIII with a manual transmission conversion, but that was a tremendous amount of work.
The aftermarket also makes modified chips, for the computer. That is probably the most cost effective way to improve performance. That’s how you get into the 13s. Worked for me.
If you want any further advice, feel free to E mail or call me.
Bob Elton
Sajeev: What the #%@! are you talking about? I thought transmissions came with a 3rd pedal, or not. You are talking about a Mk III here. Get a new one of whatever the heck it came with!
skor: if you endorse a converter I will buy it.
tedward: I don’t want to race a V6 Camry SE for fear of losing to it. Then again, I won’t lose by much, if at all. Not bad for a car designed in the late 1980s. I should be more confident in my ride, but I don’t see new Camrys puking their guts out in a parking lot.
The redesigned 1997 Mark VIII has all that stuff you mentioned. Mine’s more of a 2dr Taurus with a Cobra motor.
After re-watching this video on youtube I remembered why I want a better gearbox.
no_slushbox : considered the 5-6 speed swap since they do bolt to the motor, but I don’t have the time to do an undocumented conversion. And my money is better saved on a Vortech kit (for the ’96 Cobra) and then I’ll never miss that extra gear.
The redesigned 1997 Mark VIII has all that stuff you mentioned. Mine’s more of a 2dr Taurus with a Cobra motor.
As a fellow Mark VIII owner I’m going to take you to task. The Cobra had the Mark VIII engine, not the other way around.
Torque converters should be sold by K factor, not by stall – the latter term is useless unless the crankshaft torque is preciously [EDIT: “precisely”] known (and vehicle weight also comes into effect).
A friend had a healthy 1996 Impala SS with the usual bolt-on mods and 3.73s. The Edge converter he purchased had a spec’d stall of 3000 RPM, but we could “flash” the motor to about 3200 RPM by using just the footbrake, and it’d typically launch at about 3400 RPM when launching at the dragstrip. That converter was towards the upper end of most definitions of “driveable”; even though the lock-up feature meant that highway driving was unaffected, the car definitely felt soft off the line during normal urban driving. The converter also softened the shifts even though we’d installed a TransGo shift kit and reprogrammed the PCM, so don’t think about increasing the stall speed unless other mods are performed to retain the shift quality.
A converter with an actual stall speed around 2500-3000 RPM will likely provide the best results. Refurbed stock units often won’t provide the best performance at higher stall speeds, and so a custom unit with a smaller case diameter might be required. That will usually increase the cost substantially ($600-1000 for a GM trans; I don’t know enough about the Ford aftermarket parts to wager a guess).
The complexity of selecting the right converter makes me glad that I’ve got a T56 and a third pedal in my Impala SS. But this approach requires a very good left foot for optimum results from a standing start (a line lock and two-stage rev limiter help a bit).
trk2: Well yeah, but people look at you funny when you drop some knowledge on them. Kinda like correcting people when they say “pounds of boost” when they mean “PSI of boost”.
Actually the Cobra motor had a different intake, intake cams, crank and rods…if we really wanna split hairs.
@ Eric
Can any torque truly be “preciously” known? ;)
@ Detroit-Iron – Yea, nice catch ;) Blame low blood sugar at the end of a long Monday.
@63CorvairSpyder:
I live in Northern New Jersey, a few miles from NYC. The pictures where taken at a private hunting club in Northeast Pennsylvania.
@Sajeev Mehta:
I’m sorry, but I can not endorse any automobile parts/components. I have yet to find any that are truly bullet proof.
Hey Bob:
Thanks for the wealth of knowledge. The tranny has multiple problems and now it seems like its leaking from the front seal or the pump. Its probably time to fix it.
I’m just gonna get a rebuild with a JMOD, there’s a shop in town that comes recommended by Mustang racers and Powerstroke towing junkies. I already have a tune, headers, etc but I’ll stick with the stock gears because I like the highway cruising/great fuel economy. When that V6 Camry kicks my butt I’ll pull the trigger on a Vortech instead of the gears. :)
If you’re going to drive this car in traffic, do not install the higher stall converter. You will hate it. Gas mileage will be terrible, drivability will be awful, and the tranny will overheat like crazy even with the extra big transmission fluid cooler you’ll have to install. Forget the hype. High stall converters are drag race only pieces. A fresh rebuild with a firmer shift valve body and the stock converter would be my choice.
Johnny Canada : in general you are right. But even the Marauder had a 2500 stall converter from the factory, its far from aggressive. Hell, the Mark might have a 2500 stall unit from the factory (since Ford ripped off most every part from this car for something else) I just can’t tell because the whole tranny is slipping and out of whack.
You know, if you’ve got to pull the transmission anyway you might as well stick a T-56 in there…
2500 is nowhere near aggressive… I agree about racing converters, though. Was in a similar situation a few years ago… considered the cost of shipping my core to the shop, paying for the high stall unit, reinstalling, then buying an upgraded transmission cooler, and instead spent my money on a newer MT car. :D
Sajeev,
I rode in a Mark VIII that had a manual transmission. It was a tremendous job, and I didn’t think the results were worth it. Aprox. $4000 in parts, a year’s work. This body was never intended to have a clutch pedal, and that alone is quite an engineering problem.
Sometimes a loose converter drain plug is misdiagnosed as a front seal leak. Did you know there is a drain plug in the torque converter? Pull the rubber plug out of the bottom of th etransmission housing, and slowly rotate the engine, and you will see the plug. It’s a hex head 1/8 NPT plug.
In my opinion, one of the worst failing of the Mark VIII is the relatively low cornering power. Yes, those big sway bars make it feel like it corners better, but the limits are still pretty low. The car is limited by the size of the tires that will fit in the wheel well. And, that big front sway bar will, in time, break the subframe at its attachments.
The second biggest drawback of this car is the relatively cheesy construction. Trim rattles, crappy door handles that break, rattles, and eventually the broken body brace behind the rear seat. The harder you corner, the sooner you will have the broken brace. All fixable, but really inexcusable in a car that cost almost $50,000 in 1995. But then, I guess that’s why they are going out of business…
I still have a factory drawing for the convertible Mark VIII. That one never got very far, but it was part of the product plan at one time.
Bob
Don’t under estimate how much better a rebuilt transmission with a few mild performance tweaks is going to feel. I’d keep the stock stall converter. Think about it. How often are you gonna run this thing on Dead Man’s Curve? The rest of the time, throttle response will be like stepping on a tomato.
Hot Rod Lincoln
Commander Cody and the Lost Planet Airmen
My pappy said, “Son, you’re gonna’ drive me to drinking
If you don’t stop driving that Hot Rod Lincoln”
Have you heard this story of the Hot Rod Race
When Fords and Lincolns was setting the pace?
That story is true, I’m here to say
I was driving that Model A
It’s got a Lincoln motor and it’s really souped up
That Model A body makes it look like a pup
It’s got eight cylinders, uses them all
It’s got overdrive, just won’t stall
With a four-barrel carb and a dual exhaust
And four-eleven gears you can really get lost
It’s got safety tubes, but I ain’t scared
The brakes are good, tires fair
Pulled out of San Pedro late one night
The moon and the stars was shining bright
We was driving up Grapevine Hill
Passing cars like they was standing still
All of a sudden in a wink of an eye
A Cadillac sedan passed us by
I said, “Boys, that’s a mark for me!”
By then the tail light was all you could see
Now the fellas was ribbing me for being behind
So I thought I’d make the Lincoln unwind
Took my foot off the gas and man alive
I shoved it on down into overdrive
Wound it up to a hundred and ten
My speedometer said that I hit top end
My foot was glued like lead to the floor
That’s all there is and there ain’t no more
Now, the boys all thought I’d lost my sense
And telephone poles looked like a picket fence
They said, “Slow down! I see spots!”
The lines on the road just look like dots
Took a corner; sideswiped a truck
Crossed my fingers just for luck
My fenders was clicking the guardrail posts
The guy beside me was white as a ghost
Smoke was coming from out of the back
When I started to gain on that Cadillac.
Knew I could catch him, I thought I could pass
Don’t you know by then we’d be low on gas?
We had flames coming from out of the side
Feel the tension, Man! What a ride!
I said, “Look out, boys, I’ve got a license to fly!”
And that Caddy pulled over and let us by
Now all of a sudden she started to knocking
And down in the dips she started to rocking
I looked in my mirror; a red light was blinking
The cops was after my Hot Rod Lincoln!
They arrested me and they put me in jail
And called my pappy to go my bail
And he said, “Son, you’re going to drive me to drinking
If you don’t stop driving that Hot … Rod … Lincoln!”
My .02
I used a 2200 RPM converter in a C4 behind a modified 260CI small block. Stock was around 1200rpm. This was not the ideal point to launch from but a good compromise between absolute insanity and common sense. The secondaries kicked in around 2600 so I was able to get traction and rolling before things got crazy.
RPMs on the highway went up around 400 or so, downshifts were perfect. I had a 3.25 rear end gear, that affects the result as well.
if you are using a 3.08 or 2.79 go for a little higher, say 2500.
As previous posters have remarked, it depends on the torque curve, the gearing, intended use, and pocketbook.
As they say, it depends.
@ Theodore- “You know, if you’ve got to pull the transmission anyway you might as well stick a T-56 in there…”
Yep, went down that path with my ’96 Impala SS. Several thousand dollars and three different trans configurations (F-body, Viper, SSR) later, I now have something that’ll live between 475 HP and 4300 lbs. And, uh, it’s now slower in the 1/4-mile. Amazingly fun on an autoX course or in the twisties, though, and ripping up and down through the gears certainly makes the everyday commute more fun (especially with 396 cubes breathing through a couple Dynomax Bullets).
All that being said, there’s a lot to be said for a well-built auto.
Theodore : already have a T-56 in my foxy Cougar. That’s it. I’m done. One bonkers Ford is enough for me. Well, that’s a lie…but this one needs an auto, mostly because the platform is a major PITA to convert to a stick. See Bob Elton’s comments above.
Bob: I told myself if the transmission ever has to be opened up, its getting rebuilt. With any luck it is that converter drain plug and my rebuild will be cheaper from less damaged hard parts. But you know about the bad 1-2 accumulator springs on these cars, and I betcha mine’s in several pieces. Part throttle shifting has gone from slow to slipping in the past week. The whole unit is getting to be a mess even with the SCT tune maxing out the WOT shifting speed, and I want a JMOD pretty badly too.
I had a feeling the swaybars might pull away from their mounts at some point. Happened to a friend with a 4DSC Maxima. Whatever, its only money! I’ve seen 9″ inch wide wheels in the front, and there might be room for more in the back, but its still a big yacht, etc. But the 60 series tires are good for Houston roads, and if I want to drive a car with real grip I don’t drive the Lincoln. Its only for daily commuting and ear to ear grins when the four cams start to sing.
About the cheesy construction: I’m rattle free right now thanks to a couple Kenny Brown braces, except for the rubbing noise in my seat belt B-pillar anchor trim. (fixed it on another car with packing foam) Somehow I doubt the SC400 had these problems, but at least the leather and vinyl on these cars is top notch. Even the buckets in the junkyard have great interiors. The carpet is better than anything I’ve seen today, sans Rolls Phantom.
Too bad the Mark droptop never made it, but then again, the MN-12 was doomed from the start (too expensive, too big, overbudget) if the FoMoCo business novels I read are correct.
GS650G : thanks for your input. Torque peak is around 4300rpm (dyno tested), 3.27 rear axle, and street/strip use. Judging from my seat time in a Marauder (which I didn’t much care for, ironically) the 2500 stall unit makes sense.
All great “car-guy” (and for all I know, also “car gal”) comments.
Sajeev, I got in here late. But let me remind you that you’ll really be wanting a BIG auxiliary transmission fluid cooler to help keep the dollar bills IN your wallet not in the wallet of the transmission shop for yet another rebuild…
Good point, menno. Better hit the forums and see what size cooler will fit in front of my radiator. The fun never ends!
Ewww. Disgusting. Get a clutch of yourself.