With all that the domestic automakers have done wrong, it’s important to remember the things they’ve done– and continue to do– well. In his post about dumb moves behind the wheel, Jonny Lieberman highlighted one of these engineering accomplishments: Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HAVC). As JL pointed out, even when Detroit was making malaise-era cars that barely ran, their HVAC systems were the “envy of the world.” Sure, Volvos and Saabs had good interior heating and defrosting systems, not to mention heated seats. But Detroit led the world in keeping drivers physically comfortable. In this, geographic happenstance played a critical role.
In European cities, streets are narrow and go in all directions. The history and glamor of road racing looms large. Small cars, precise handling and confident cornering were always high priorities. In contrast, Detroit’s streets are broad and, for the most part, adhere to a 90 degree grid. Boulevard and interstate cruising defined the automotive gestalt. Motown’s suspensions were calibrated more for comfort than precision handling. And HVAC systems enjoyed pride of place.
Every year when the NAIAS rolls around, people question the wisdom of holding a big auto show in Detroit in January. The weather outside the hall isn’t Fargo or International Falls cold, but it’s enough to evoke mention of brass monkeys’ testicles witches’ mammaries. Statistically speaking, January’s average temperature: 17.8°F. Not to mention wind chill; the “breeze” coming off Lake St. Clair can cut you to the quick. And yes, there’s snow. Average annual snowfall: 41 inches.
Detroit auto execs and their contemporary counterparts may have never experienced the joys of dealer service managers and warranty work but they still had to deal with Michigan weather on the way to and from work. Auto execs don’t like to be cold. Neither do engineers. Working together, they made sure that Motown’s products could warm their bones– and keep them warm– through the worst of the midwestern winter.
Quick digression…
I reckon the Volkswagen Beetle’s token HVAC system is one of the main reasons Motown diss-missed the small car boat. In January, Wolfsburg’s average temperature is a relatively balmy 38°F. This may account for the fact that the Bug’s heating system didn’t have an electric blower. Pressurized air was ducted off of the cooling shroud into the headers/heat exchangers. Heat, then, was speed sensitive– under the best of circumstances.
After a Michigan winter or two, with plenty of road salt rotting the German car’s undercarriage, the Vee Dub’s heat exchangers and heat ducts were perforated with rust. Small wonder VW offered a gas heater: a self-contained 18k btu gasoline-fired furnace.
Back to Detroit, which isn’t located in a desert. Still, the average July temperature clocks in at 83.4°F (Wolfsburg 72°F), with plenty of relative humidity to keep the sweat flowing.
Air conditioning was originally introduced by Packard in 1939 as a $274 option. It filled up the vehicle’s entire trunk. To turn it off, the driver had to stop the car, turn off the engine, open the hood and disconnect a belt connected to the air conditioning compressor. In 1941, Cadillac built 300 equally inconvenient air-conditioned cars.
GM’s Harrison Radiator Division developed the first efficient, affordable automotive A/C unit. Offered as an option on all 1955 V-8 Pontiacs, it featured a two-cylinder reciprocating compressor and an all-brazed condenser. Fitted with a magnetic clutch, the unit didn’t need extra power to drive the compressor, which greatly improved performance and fuel economy.
Meanwhile and anyway, by the 1960s, domestic automakers were improving ventilation systems. Cars had air vents in the fender wells, with cable actuators on the kick panel. Flow-through ventilation was soon integrated into the heating system. By the 70’s, automotive air conditioning became a factory option on Detroit’s popularly priced cars.
Upgraded HVAC systems were an excellent way for dealers to add to a car’s bottom line. (Heaters were an extra cost option well into the 60’s.) Many of our Best and Brightest who grew up sweltering in cars without a chiller gladly paid for extra for A/C when they could afford it.
Another digression…
My dad, may he rest in peace, loved air conditioning. American Motors used to label the maximum A/C setting “Desert Cool.” They must have had my dad in mind. Though he liked his options, as far as A/C was concerned, they could have had a single setting: max cool, max fan. In the 1970s, he switched from Oldsmobiles to Mercurys; you could have cooled your drink on the dashboard of his 1974 Grand Marquis.
Thirty-eight years later and I’ve never driven a Detroit product that couldn’t blast full heat in subzero weather, or keep you comfortable on a blistering hot summer day. Just about every automaker in the world now makes fairly sophisticated climate control systems. But it’s a clear case of meeting a high standard that Detroit, to its credit, has set.
Very true. Domestics always have great A/C in particular. Both my Accord V6 and Acura TSX just can’t seem to keep up once the temperature goes above 90º. However, my Escort had pretty weak A/C, maybe because of Mazda’s influence in the design?
However, heating ability seems to be pretty well matched in modern Asian vehicles. Plus my V6 Accord had the exhaust manifolds integrated into the cylinder heads, that engine got up to temperature, and warmed the cabin fast.
Oh, that takes me back. My dad bought a Chevy Nova without AC. My sister and I were little but even we knew that was a mistake. It was probably the first crack in our illusion of parental invincibility.
Anyway, I do agree that the GM rentals I’ve had warmed up or cooled off quicker than the imports. However since the thermostat in our 89 Sable kept going on the fritz and blowing freaking hot air in the summer, I just can’t say so for Ford.
I grew up in the AC era; I can’t imagine a midwest summer without it. It often gets up to 100 degrees a couple of times in August. Not to mention I can’t imagine what people in the ’50s did without heaters…
By contrast, the AC on my 96 Infiniti struggled on a road trip through Death Valley when outside temperatures hit 117 in the shade.
In my youth I had a VW bus. “Heat” was just a word on the dashboard.
That is great! When Detroit finally loses its ability to engineer and design cars they can concentrate on air conditioning.
OK so far.
Bring back fly vent windows. Especially on my 99 miata. I would pay good money for aftermarket setup.
A heater was optional on my 63 fairlane. Cost? 54 dollars. Reverse lights were optional too, 10 dollars more.
You can hang meat in the interior of any American car with R-12 AC. The R-134, not so much. I get 36 degrees from the dash of my 93 F-150, condensation forms on the dash in the summertime.
I think it has to do with the simple fact that American cars see such a wide range of temps. From Arizona to Nome Alaska we have about a 150 degree range in operating temperatures that cars are expected to work in. Japan, Korea and even Europe don’t have these issues for the majority of their customers.
I missed the other HVAC posts, but here in a hot country like Australia, GM Holden and Ford have had very poor reputations for having extremely weak A/C. The newest models have improved A/C, but not like Toyota (or others).
I think GM lost its title to king of HVAC mountain when Mercedes began blowing air through the seat cushions onto the backsides of the well-heeled (or well-driven)
But you have to remember, the power suck from an A/C compressor on a V-8 that can turn all of 4.5krpm and whose torque peak is at 1.8krpm is much less noticeable than the power suck from same compressor on an in-line 4 that peaks at 6.5k rpm and has a torque peak @ 3k.
So it was a combination – I submit – of lots of capacity to move air (albeit not particularly well directed as per last week’s post on HVAC controls) and compressors turned by long stroke, high-ish torque V-8’s that garnered the reputation in the first place.
Perhaps some of the HVAC abilities of American cars had to do with their powerplants? Running with sixes and eights–more cylinders and power–allowed larger a/c compressors and coolant jackets to get hot water off those engines.
But I beg to differ in that there are subtleties in HVAC engineering that Detroit sometimes still doesn’t do perfectly. I don’t know for sure how, but I know that my oldgen Saab 9-3’s interior warms up MUCH faster than my son’s ’97 Buick Lesabre, despite the later having an engine displacement nearly twice that of the 9-3. I suspect it might have something to do with how the engine cooling core (where the glycol circulates until it warms up enough to open the thermostat) is set up relative to the heater core.
And during the recent cold spell in the US, I had a rental Cobalt in Alabama, where even there the temps were in the teens and low 20s Fahrenheit. The Chevy was piss-poor slow to warm up the interior, and the footwells felt drafty to boot– probably because there’s just one outlet in each footwell vs. multiple ones in our old 9-3s and 900s. Engine sizes are about the same, so it’s how the hVAC system is designed that seems to count there. Another case where GMNA didn’t seem to have picked up much from their European stablemates.
My first memory of air conditioning in a car was my grandfather’s 1959 Pontiac Bonneville 4-door. Quite the big machine. And the air conditioning was powerful. My grandfather ran it constantly and one day the car wouldn’t start. The battery was nearly dead – this was in the days of generators and its output couldn’t keep the battery charged in city driving. GM had an uncompromised capacity for cooling for many years. I think the systems are more closely specified these days to save costs and weight. Oh yes and there was a change of “freon” some years ago that lowered the cooling capacity. Then there were the automatic controls that were vacuum nightmares – this is one place where electronic controls have worked well.
My 1970 Camaro had factory air that was a $300 option on a $3000 car.
@dgduris :
I think GM lost its title to king of HVAC mountain when Mercedes began blowing air through the seat cushions onto the backsides of the well-heeled (or well-driven)
Not true. The cooled seat, in modern cars, is the invention of Amerigon Corp, of Michigan.
PTC elements heat AND cool the seats. It’s optional on Cadillac.
I had a 3.8L ’97 Grand Prix. The A/C worked great, but unfortunately the freon kept leaking from the system.
My ’07 Mazda 3, not so great, but I love the heated seats on a cold day.
Personally, I always liked the front window vents that used to be in domestics.
You could just open a little window, either by hand or power, and get enough clean air and circulation into your car without even using the HVAC system.
Haven’t had any complaints about a car’s heat but none of the Hondas I’ve owned have had an a/c system that came close to matching the GMs dad drove. Could’ve hung meat in the ’73 Chevy Impala, I drove as a kid, with the fan speed on ‘2’.
My first Honda, an ’88 Integra, was helpless once the temperature was higher then 90º and the speed was less then 50 mph. Plus it couldn’t cool off the car that had been baking in the sun. The summer commute was a sweaty affair. My ’02 Civic is better it can at least cool down a hot car, eventually, but if the sun is up the the fan speed is on max.
Excellent piece.
+1 to all those who miss the little side windows. Would it be that difficult to bring them back?
Oh those wing-vents could come back if you are willing to pay for them. They add cost.
And they are a source of wind turbulence noise.
Yeah, I could deal with that.
akear:
Ah ha, been there done that.
Chrysler Airtemp
I could’ve swore Ford and GM had similar operations, but maybe I’m wrong.
I’ve had two Honda Civics and compared to American cars (Cavalier, Saturn Ion) the heaters in the Civics both seem to take a bit longer to start pumping out the hot air, and neither one has air-conditioning that is as strong as in small American cars.
The air-conditioning in my newer Civic is much stronger than in my older one and when it kicks in, it does so much more smoothly. Barely noticeable. With my old Civic, the air-conditioning would kick in and all of a sudden it was like you’d lost power in 2 cylinders.
Ronnie Schreiber: GM’s Harrison Radiator Division developed the first efficient, affordable automotive A/C unit. Offered as an option on all 1954 V-8 Pontiacs.
Pontiac did not have a V-8 engine in 1954, only inline sixes and eights. A V-8 became available again in the fall of 1954 for the 1955 model year. (Pontiac previously had a V-8 available briefly in the 1930s.)
I live in the Pacific Northwest, where it is always either 50°F and raining, or every once in a while… 65°F and sunny. Delay wipers (or Rain-X) are far more important to me than A/C, or even heat. I have owned many cars without A/C and even the ones that I did own with A/C it has been turned on maybe three times in 150k miles.
Manual transmissions are far more important to me than HVAC. Perhaps that is why I have only ever bought one car from Detroit in all my life.
–chuck
Pet Peeve: One thing I’ve always disliked about many domestic HVACs has been the lack of a simple recirculation button.
My first a/c experience was with my uncle’s 55 Nash Ambassador V8. It was like a fridge inside that car. Amazing. My own first car with a/c was a 74 BMW 3.0 and it made lots of fan noise and not all that much cold air. I decide that all subsequent cars would have a/c though. I agree that the domestic a/c was usually colder and with higher output than that of the imports.
As I remember, the best heaters I’ve ever had on a car were on my two Volvos, one a 122S and the other a 142S.
Dangerous Dave,
When I built my second bus, I bought a solid 1972 shell (disk brakes up front, real IRS in the back, and the tranny would bolt up to a Beetle engine) and built a slightly hi-po 1648cc Bug engine for it. Since I was running a high output Melling oil pump and routing the oil to an external filter, I decided to add an oil cooler and ran copper tubing out the engine compartment air ducts up to the roof. (“Hey, what’s that on your roof?” “An oil cooler.” “What’s it do?”, “Ummm. Cool oil.”). Then I got some three way valves, an extra stock oil cooler and a 12V squirrel cage fan with some sheet metal and jury rigged an auxiliary heater on the back deck above the engine. While it never got the busanagon very toasty, it kept it above freezing.
I agree that GM has offered generally excellent air conditioning. Had some problems with refrigerant leaks on the Ford I used to own. Wish GM could have designed air conditioning for Honda and Honda could have designed interiors for GM.
My father had one theory for air conditioning: if it was on, it was on maximum cooling. He had no concept setting the temperature to warm and blending in warm and dehumidified air together to get the right temperature.
Some people still can’t mentally turn on a/c and heat at the same time, as if it’s like pressing the accelerator and brake at the same time.
You know what? You’re right. And here I thought I hated everything about GM cars and trucks.
I’ve never thought about it, but our progress in this arena should make perfect sense to anyone who’s ever been in Michigan between November and March.
At any rate: huh. You learn somethin’ new every day. I still don’t really feel like sending my tax check directly to Detroit, but it’s a start, I guess…
That’s a very interesting read. I’m living in germany, and i always had the impression that here in europe A/C didn’t become popular until the mid-90s, at least in the mass market. Apart from the geographic factors, i agree with bill h. that it also has to do with engine size.
My first car was a 75hp Fiesta, a special edition with A/C. If i turned the A/C on at high speeds, for example, while i was overtaking someone on the autobahn, the acceleration just stopped. It was embarrassing! During the hotter months, i always left the A/C on, and kept the mighty extra 5hp in reserve. I called the A/C button the “Turbo Boost”… (i know)
Also, this summer i was driving through croatia in an old russian-built Lada Samara. The heating was strong enough for the siberian tundra. Unfortunately, it could not be turned off, and it was 98°F outside.
My 914-6 had great heat. I would drive around the ski resorts with the top off! Toasty warm. Cooling didn’t exist.
My Black, fiberglass roofed ’87 Dodge Van with 600,000 miles had A/C that would freeze you out in Florida in the summer.
My BMW and Corvette both have air but is cooler if you just roll down the window. The heat is good though. You don’t even have to turn on the heat in the ‘Vette!
I’m finding that my ’08 Hyundai Elantra is very ‘cold-blooded’. In the recent cold snap, it’s 15 minutes before there’s any noticable warmth for the defrosters – I’m considering a block heater.
If I had to judge, I’d say that Seoul averages around the low 50’s in January…
@WaftableTorque,
Yes and even today some f1 drivers can’t left foot brake. (Rubinho comes to mind.)
After a Michigan winter or two, with plenty of road salt rotting the German car’s undercarriage, the Vee Dub’s heat exchangers and heat ducts were perforated with rust. Small wonder VW offered a gas heater: a self-contained 18k btu gasoline-fired furnace.
I had a 1971 Adriatic Blue Superbeetle (semiautomatic) and I remember the manual said that the auxiliary heater burned about “1 pint of fuel per hour.”
@akear: That is great! When Detroit finally loses its ability to engineer and design cars they can concentrate on air conditioning.
They’ve done it in the past. In fact, the Delco Appliance division in Rochester even made Delco-Heat home furnaces.
The GM A-6 compressor was used by GM from the 50’s to the 70’s. The thing is awesome. It’s HUGE! It makes something 27,500 btu’s of cooling power. Enough to cool a small house. It was so good Ford bought them and put them on their large cars from 1970 to 1979. My 79 Lincoln has one and the air coming out of the vents get into the low 30’s in Florida in the summer. Not bad for a 30 year old system. Takes 4 pounds of freon (5.3 cans) Amazing. I have to give an honorable mention to the 1995 BMW 5 series and every Toyota I’ve had. Icy cold AC and hot heat in those too.
Very true. There’s nothing better in winter than the heater core of a chevy pickup. Warms up quick, has you sweating in about 5 minutes.
When I was deployed to Saudi Arabia (Al Jabail initially) and Kuwait for the first Gulf War, I noticed that an awful lot of cars being driven were Chevy Impalas, late 80s to 1990 models. And the reason American cars were preferred wasn’t because of the car but the HVAC system, specifically the A/C on the really hot days. I didn’t notice so many Crown Vics, but saw many of the large RWD Impalas.
I had an 89 Nissan Maxima, great heat but anything over 80ish degrees and it was unbearably hot, It could have been the black leather and black exterior though….
Any comments on heated seats? I have owned 3 new VWs and Audis over the last 9 years, all of which have had the best heated seats ever. My wife’s Passat seat heat beats my BMW 5 series seats any cold day, not even close. But I do have that nice heated steering wheel – it sounds like a ridiculous gimmick, but it is really nice on a super cold day.
Heat/ac is one thing GM could really do. Out of mo 25 cars, the 2 80s GM rear drivers would be blowing warm air by the end of my block on even the coldest days. None of my Fords or Mopars warmed up that fast. In fact, I always suspected that I could bypass the radiator completely in my 71 Plymouth Scamp with the slant 6 and never know the difference in winter.
My only US car with disappointing cooling was a 94 Ford Club Wagon. First year of R-134, which I later learned was used in a system designed for the more efficient R-12. Air only about 50 degrees at the vent on a hot day in city driving (though it worked great at highway speeds with higher compressor speed and more air thru the condenser.)
Related topic I have not seen mentioned yet: Does anybody else miss the old fashoned heater control valve? You remember, the one that shut the hot water off before it got to the heater core? All of my 60s cars had fresh air cowl vents which did a good job of keeping you comfy even without ac, certainly till the temps passed 85. Since the 70s, the direct fresh air is gone. It runs thru the hvac system that cannot turn off the hot water. Once the car warms up, radiant heat from the heater core heats the “vent” air, making it worse than no vent air at all. You could live without ac with the old systems, but it is about mandatory with the newer ones.
While I’m in general agreement with the article, one of the best HVAC systems I’ve had was in my old 1992 VW Jetta. Then again my first car was a mid-50’s VW where I very much remember driving with one hand and scraping frost off the windshield with the other (Montreal winter of course).
Prado:
“Pet Peeve: One thing I’ve always disliked about many domestic HVACs has been the lack of a simple recirculation button.”
Chryslers at least int he 80’s thru early 90’s had a pushbutton HVAC system. You could tell it where you wanted the air/heat to go: vent, floor, or both. And it had a button for recirculation, you just had to push it in to engage, push it again to turn it off.
npbheights:
“The GM A-6 compressor was used by GM from the 50’s to the 70’s. The thing is awesome. It’s HUGE! It makes something 27,500 btu’s of cooling power. Enough to cool a small house.”
I read that the 93 LH cars (Intrepid/Concord/Vision) had a AC compressor that could cool a 1,200 sq ft house. I think it was made by Denso (Japanese supplier). Because the LH’s had a larger greenhouse than most cars at the time it needed it.
My Ford ZX2 commuter car has a very good AC (R-134). Even with a black interior in FL it cools the car down very quick.
Interesting article, Mr. Schreiber. I think you should give credit to Nash’s Weather Eye heating system, which was introduced in the 1930s. It set the pattern for automotive heating systems.
In the 1960s, AMC was a big promoter of automotive air conditioning. If I recall correctly, a fairly high percentage of Rambler/AMC models were ordered with air conditioning during those years. The 1968 AMC Ambassador was the one of the first (if not THE first) regular wheelbase production cars to include factory air conditioning as standard equipment.
Ronnie — you are absolutely right.
I just spent ten minutes down memory lane…and my parents’ cars (all GM) all had fantastic HVAC systems.
1980-something Beauville Van (with side-vent windows)
1986 Oldsmobile 88
1989 Chevy Conversion Van
1991 Chevy Safari Conversion Van
1993 Chevy Lumina
1995 Chevy Astro
and every Impala’bu that my Mom has had since.
Although my ford Escort and Probe GT — not quite ‘world class’, but competent. Fine.
I don’t believe Crysler/Dodge is in the same league.
@RealCarGuy,
“I think GM lost its title to king of HVAC mountain when Mercedes began blowing air through the seat cushions onto the backsides of the well-heeled (or well-driven)
Not true. The cooled seat, in modern cars, is the invention of Amerigon Corp, of Michigan.”
Cool! (funny pun)
But your point does not make mine untrue. My assertion is that MB blew air on butts before GM. Your assertion is that the mechanism used was in vented in ‘Merica.
MgoBlue
I don’t believe Crysler/Dodge is in the same league.
I agree on heating, but that old twin cylinder ac compressor in my 60s-70s Mopars could about frost the windows.
Chrysler Airtemp
I could’ve swore Ford and GM had similar operations, but maybe I’m wrong.
Philco = Ford
Frigidaire = GM
Kelvinator = AMC
The light inside our Kelvinator fridge was identical to the dome light in our Rambler.
One thing I’ve always disliked about many domestic HVACs has been the lack of a simple recirculation button.
That’s what MAX A/C is.
Years ago my buddy and I recharged my 1990 Taurus with a full shot of ozone depleating R-12. Damn that thing was cold. Got the interior down to 40 degrees on a 75-80 degree day.
My Honda doesn’t have near the A/C strength, but the heater is very solid. The 4cyl has kept me warm on -20F Minnesota winter days. Much better than the GM garbage is shares a garage with.
I’ve also found Ford trucks to have very competent HVAC systems.
As for heated seats, a co-workers Passat had a heated seat burn through the upholstery. I’m not sure if I blame the crappy German electronics or the stupid dial that doesn’t reset when you shut off the car. She drove around with it on all the time…until the seat cover required replacing.
I guess it was neither hot nor cold in Tennessee, because our 1997 Saturn SL1 produced neither in sufficient quantities. In a Colorado winter, the heat was never present; in summer, the AC was barely adequate. Maybe they thought plastic body panels were good insulation?
I got a Cadillac Deville (remember when they made those) down to 17C on a 35C day in Toronto once. With 5 people inside. That was still the best AC I’ve ever seen.
As a kid I would always go with my dad to the dealership when he had to get the latest warranty work done in the 80’s. Seeing the long line of cars at the entrance every time, the irate people with receipts in hand whose a/c systems still didn’t work, and listening to my dad’s comments on how lousy some of those cars were stuck with me. I came away with the feeling that GM quality (or lack of it) had a large effect on their overall a/c system reputation. Glad to hear that wasn’t always the case.
Gotta partly disagree with this article.
GM’s 1969 Chevrolet Impala’s AC did break down. Anecdotal, because it was my dad’s car.
But we spend many a summer driving without AC or defroster in that car, and we finally got rid of it sometime around 1990, I think. The car itself was mostly dependable, and maybe the AC could have been fixed.
The ’73 Bonneville had good AC; we drove though the desert in it.
When I lived in Hawaii, I bought a ’67 Rambler for $12. The car had no heater (who needs a heater in HI?) When I say no heater, I mean a metal plate covering the holes in the dash where the heater controls should be, no blower, no ducts, nothing.
I shipped the car to the mainland and drove it to MI in August. I knew it wouldn’t be long before I’d need a heater. I was lucky enough to find a ’67 Rambler in a junk yard, and for about $40 I got the whole heater system, including pull knobs, cables, ducts, blower box. I did buy new heater hoses.
When I lived in Hawaii, I bought a ’67 Rambler for $12. The car had no heater (who needs a heater in HI?) When I say no heater, I mean a metal plate covering the holes in the dash where the heater controls should be, no blower, no ducts, nothing.
I shipped the car to the mainland and drove it to MI in August. I knew it wouldn’t be long before I’d need a heater. I was lucky enough to find a ’67 Rambler in a junk yard, and for about $40 I got the whole heater system, including pull knobs, cables, ducts, blower box. I did buy new heater hoses.
I never understood Rambler’s “Weather Eye”. It was a conventional heating system in everyway. Still, the “Weather Eye” lettering was always a good conversation starter.
Related topic I have not seen mentioned yet: Does anybody else miss the old fashoned heater control valve? You remember, the one that shut the hot water off before it got to the heater core? All of my 60s cars had fresh air cowl vents which did a good job of keeping you comfy even without ac, certainly till the temps passed 85. Since the 70s, the direct fresh air is gone. It runs thru the hvac system that cannot turn off the hot water. Once the car warms up, radiant heat from the heater core heats the “vent” air, making it worse than no vent air at all. You could live without ac with the old systems, but it is about mandatory with the newe…
Modern cars still have a valve that shuts off hot coolant flow into the heater core, at least all the ones I know of. However, the only time all flow is cut off is when in max A/C or “off.” At all other times, coolant is available to temper the incoming air if desired…
GM cars always had killer HVAC. The Frigidiare compressor stood front and center in my dad’s ’72 Eldorado and that puppy could cause frostbite! My first car, a ’72 Fury, also had great A/C but all Chrysler products from that era would overheat in heavy traffic with the A/C. Not so with the GM stuff. No corrosion holes in the radiator either, which seemed to affect all early ’70’s Chrysler products on a three year rotating schedule…anybody know why?
Many cars do not shut off the water to the heater core as it is engineered to be part of the cooling system full time. If the heated air is not needed, it is simply diverted from the cabin.
The A/C on some cars and trucks is engineered to come on when the defroster is activated to de-humidify the air, dramatically increasing defrosting performance. When it is not automatic, you may find a manual A/C button has been provided.
It seems to be hit and miss which do it automatically and which make you do it manually.
my dear, departed ’84 GTI had awesome A/C, the compressor looked like the one in contemporary full-sized Ford cars and trucks (reciprocating style, perhaps?). It’d freeze you in 5 Florida summer minutes. Someone told me it was a US-engineered option, looking at the rig of a bracket, I believe it. If it hadn’t been my only car, I’d have taken the A/C out in the interest of better handling — bracket and compressor must’ve weighed (conservatively) 80 pounds.
None of the three 70-something Chevys that preceded it would hold R-12 long enough to find out how well they might have cooled, the GTI needed a pound when I bought in in ’96, it held enough to work until it left in ’02.
Steven Lang: “Personally, I always liked the front window vents that used to be in domestics.
You could just open a little window, either by hand or power, and get enough clean air and circulation into your car without even using the HVAC system.”Seems like that, in and of itself, would be an interesting topic. I think it began in 1968 when GM got rid of vent windows on the f-body Camaro/Firebird (which had been introduced just the year prior). A scant two years later, they were gone from virtually every new domestic, save the carry-over 1970 Chrysler intermediates. The next year, they were gone from them, too. I think Ford was the lone holdout from that point on, still having the option available on some full-size cars, all the way up to around 1991. After that point, you could only get vent windows on pickup trucks. But, today, I know of no new vehicles that offer front vent windows (and I don’t mean the erzatz ‘fake’ vent windows which do not open and are there for structural rigidity).
One of the main reasons for the elimination of vent windows was how styling trends began to dictate that side glass began to have a more severe ‘roll’ into the roof instead of the previous flat side glass. Having more of a curve meant it would be difficult (if not impossible) to have vent windows.
Besides the elimination of the front window vents, the other HVAC area I’d like to know about has to do with the development of cowl vents. I’ve noticed they’re missing on fifties’ GM vehicles (mainly the shoebox ’55-’57 Chevrolet). Instead of the air being ducted through the cowl, it looks like there are long, flexible ductwork that extend from the firewall all the way to the grill.
Detroit isn’t exactly unique in well-engineered and executed HVAC.
I’ve got no complaints about the HVAC in my Toys.
But I had plenty of complaints about the HVAC in my Aerostar. The system was probably sized right but it had problems – a manufacturing defect of some sort – and it never worked properly. The fact that Ford never fixed it means that it just wasn’t ever praiseworthy. Well-engineered, in my book, also means that the inevitable problems can be found and fixed by reasonable service departments for a reasonable fee.
Which brings me back to the Toys… Mice got into the Sienna and packed the HVAC ducting full of pink fiberglass insulation (stolen from the house, I’m sure, I’m still trying to figure out where). Toyota was able to diagnose and repair the problem for $110. That strikes me as not outrageous. Replacing a blower motor on the aforementioned Ford was a $200 job – over 10 years ago (and they didn’t diagnose/fix the companion controls problem for that price).
The little 4-bangers in my Volvos were able to keep the car warm in MN winters. And the fanny-heaters in my ’86 Volvo were a good thing that I’d not seen in mainstream American brands to that point. Their A/C worked quite well, too, without undue drag on the car in spite of the modest 114hp. I never had to replace a blower motor in that car, by the way, but I’m pretty sure it was sitting in plain view on the firewall, easily removed and replaced with a socket wrench in 10 minutes.
Come to think of it, quality/reliability/longevity of parts would be an issue for a well-engineered system, wouldn’t it? Until the Aerostar, it never crossed my mind that blower motors could go bad. The Volvos were on their original blowers when they were totalled or sold at 18, 16 and 16 years of age.
My grandfather had a ’68 Cadillac with a number of nifty features. I’m fairly certain that one of them was the ability to set the temperature go a number and then the car would take care of the rest. That was nice (and a Cadillac motor had the heat output to really do heat and the power to run an impressive A/C unit, too).
That certainly set Cadillac apart (also, it had a cruise control that was a round dial, you dialled in the speed you wanted to go and, there you went – 16 year-old driver, me, taking it out on the highway and rolling it from 65 to whatever the maximum was – whoopppee!)
But, today, what’s praiseworthy about Detroit’s HVAC? What sets it above or is it merely on par? Where’s the compelling feature?
And is the compelling feature standard or an extra cost option or part of an expensive package that makes it unattractive?
Back in ’82, I’m fairly certain that the Cavalier included a rear-window defroster at no charge (the only option I believ my ’82 had was FM radio). Within a couple years, I believe they’d abandoned that as a standard feature.
If I think about recent improvements, a friend had a Mitsubishi with oscillating vents. Who introduced left-and-right or front-and-back differential controls?
The new Prius will have a solar panel to help keep the car cool. That’s a nifty feature (might be too expensive to merit my serious consideration but I can see the utility of it).
I wish someone would introduce a button that says “de-ice the damned windshield, whatever it takes.”
If you include management of ice on glass as part of climate control, Chrysler had a nifty feature, a de-icer element at the bottom of the windshield, where the wipers park. But they abandoned that.
So, yes, Detroit led in HVAC. For a time. But, now? Like everything else they do, everybody else has caught up, as far as I can tell, and provides something that’s more reliable and more readily serviced.
Why buy an American-branded car? What does it have today?
I have to say that our ’07 Focus warms up in no time and is stone cold comfortable in the summer, typically with the stat set at 10 o’clock.
BUT, my ’05 F150, its A/C is terrible taking forever to cool down with East TN temps with it being checked out by the dealer twice. All F150’s typically have this, at least the 04-08 body style.
I miss vent windows too.
GM has done a good job over the years on HVAC: I well remember our 50 – 60’s series Pontiac AC’s doing a great job heating or cooling those long trips. They were also good at sending hot air to floor and defroster, and cool air to upper level vents.
However, recent GM models make it difficult to keep the AC off during demist or defog, resulting in less fogging but longer times to deice a windshield.
Japanese cars, all seemingly relying on Nippondenso systems, tend to pour air out the side vents irregardless of HVAC upper/lower air setting. In the cheaper cars, that air’s unheated, forcing you to manage air vents as well as heater controls. Higher-end cars add electro/pneumatic valves for control those ducts by HVAC controls.
My R-12 cars all cooled very well no matter who made them. My ’81 Moostang with the 200 c.i. six with 90 whole HP used about 10 of it to turn the big Tecumseh piston compressor. It cooled but was expensive to provide gas for. Made a thrumming noise that could be heard throughout the car. Nothing was wrong. Just a gentle change to the sound of the car. My ’84 and ’97 VW convertibles (Rabbit & Cabrio) both make ice cubes in the summer. Very cold. VERY good heater too. The ’97 Cabrio has a variable displacement compressor so there is not any cycling of the compressor making for a nice refinement.
My aircooled Beetles made VERY good heat if the system was intact. Yes, it was rpm dependent but it was enough at all speeds to roast my sneakers. The problem was that the flappers leaked a little in the summer so I had heat then too. The flappers were a little TOO low tech in that regard.
My aircooled ’78 VW Westfalia van has never made any really hot heat and the fan never moved enough air to be really useful. Remember keeping it all intact? The U-tubes int he exhaust had a thin 2nd layer of sheetmetal that insulated the pipes but exposed to any weather or salt they disappeared quick. That was the key to keeping the heat really hot b/c the system just wasn’t designed to deliver any real volume. I suspect too much volume and the heat temps (and engine temps) begin to fall. I drove my friend’s ’78 VW Rivera camper with all the same van bits and her pipes are intact (or were) and the van heated very well. Enough that on a freezing night cruising around town my wife asked me to turn the heat down.
I too like all of the old methods for cooling the car without a/c. Cowl vents, vent windows, etc. Prob lost to the cost cutters and to the folks tasked with cutting wind noise. Our aircooled VWs do a pretty good job of keeping us cool without a/c.
I lived in Italy in the early 90s and alot of Italian people I knew just didn’t see the point to having a/c when gas was $5 per gallon (and our gas was under a dollar). We also got used to the heat and the transistion from the cool car to the hot weather really was a shock compared to just enjoying the open windows breeze. Those good people also take siestas and thus try not to be out in their cars during mid-day heat. Finally alot of people were still driving 1L and 1.2L cars and really didn’t have alot of HP to spare to a compressor large enough to be effective at cooling a hot car. Most of my Italian friends welcomed my ’84 VW Rabbit’s a/c but had no taste for artic temps when they would have to step out into 95 degree heat in a short time. Everything in moderation. Cool but not cold in the summer, warm not hot in the winter was how they heated/cooled their lives. I’ve got to say you can get used to it. I went without a/c this past summer in the Cabrio intentionally ($4 gas – remember?) and it isn’t bad. I didn’t put the top down when the sun was out though – just roasts me when it is July hot and the sun is bright.