We all know that November was a bad month for car sales. Come Monday, we’ll know how bad December was, and with it the whole year. Don’t expect any positive surprises. Pop quiz: What was the worst segment? The much maligned SUVs? Nope, they are back in vogue, kindof. It’s hybrids that suddenly are on the endangered species list. “Americans’ appetite for hybrid cars is evaporating as tumbling fuel prices and tighter household budgets trump environmental concerns,” writes the Financial Times (sub.)
Yes, bound for extinction are the same cars that were the conveyance of choice for Detroit’s CEO’s during the second round of hearings. One of the hottest segments a few months ago is now a thin slice of its former glory. We’re talking the same hybrids that sucked up billions of investments, and were the target of $25b of Department of Energy “retooling loans.” With gas back to normal, hybrids are going out of style bigtime.
Hybrid sales in November shrank 53 per cent from a year earlier, while the market in general shrank 37 percent. Market research firm Autodata expects a similar trend for December sales, which will be announced Monday.
Looked at from a purely financial angle, hybrids never made sense. Hybrids typically cost $3K to 5K more than conventionally powered versions. When gas was above $4 a gallon, you had to drive the car three and a half years, longer than the usual lease period, to amortize the higher price. With gas as low as it’s now, Edmunds estimates that a Prius owner must wait more than eight years to recoup the extra cost of the vehicle in fuel savings.
Ford’s sales analyst George Pipas doesn’t think there is a backlash to gas guzzlers underway. He sees a trend towards the cheapest car possible. Small cars accounted for 18.7 per cent of sales in the three months to November, up from 16.6 per cent a year earlier, despite the sharp drops at the pump. People are still concerned about the environment. About the living environment of their families.
The price of Oil is again on the way up! so dont write off the Hybrid just yet, remember that the price of Gasoline is sure to rise,maybe even $4.00 or more per gallon!?
The price of oil is rebounding slightly due to the Gaza war. A few month ago, the war would have lifted the barrel by $50 …
I’d never dare to forecast any commodity price. But http://www.oil-price.net has the barrel of oil at $51 a year from now.
The price will be very dependent on how the economy will be doing. Economy up, demand up, price up. Same in reverse.
The main point is: Hybrids and plugins weren’t cost efficient even when the price of oil was at $150. Cars and industries needed tax incentives.
Once we work through this financial crisis- WATCH OUT! We will see substantially higher gas prices. Consider the 3.5 billion people on the other side of the world who are becoming wealthier and will increase their oil usage.
More people demanding oil + limited supply=HIGHER PRICES. Simple econ.
We will need much more than hybrids…..
TEEMAN2
Unbelievable how short sighted people are and what short memories they have. Gas guzzler sales have been rebounding somewhat as well in the current gas price drop.
It is almost as if people only look at fuel prices in the week they are buying.
ummm…and then there’s the question of WTF should Detroit do to produce a product that America would buy…talk about a moving target.
A few months ago, there was a simple answer: a good energy-efficient car. Now? When Joe & Jill have demonstrated that they have a long-time horizon shorter than that of a Fortune 500 CEO? When it takes a year, 2 years to design a new car and get it into production, while the design imperative changes every 3 months? When the consumer doesn’t look past the next car payment? You’d think a car buyer would say, ‘I’m signing up for 4-5-6 years of loan payments, and gas may go back up again so much that my gas payments are more than the car payments…better go for *some* efficiency”. But no.
For that matter, any savvy person who needs transport would have to be insane to buy new. Better to 60/80 or 40/80 a Detroit used and play the waiting game.
And if Detroit can’t go for the simple(!) goal of making a really energy efficient car, what then? What game changing product could they possibly come up with to bring back all their P.O.’ed ex-customers? Fine Corinthian leather? I don’t think so.
Deity above, if I was a car making executive, I’d &^%$ myself trying to win at this game. Particularly since they can’t hedge their bets, and they are out of time and capital and customer belief. Go to Vegas, it’d be a sure win by comparison.
I hate to think of all the UAW workers losing their jobs, their retirement and medical (screw the management, they *own* this disaster), but I Just Don’t See A Good Ending
@sdean7855: Actually, it takes more like 4 years to design and bring to market a totally new car. Used to be longer.
@ Bertel
The language you use is worrying. Can’t you use language that encourages people to have other considerations rather than just the cost of a tank today? Hasn’t this site being seeing a trend to having cars for longer?
Considerations for buying a hybrid;
1. Highly reliable (electric motor main drive).
2. 1/3 reduction in CO2 emissions over diesel or petrol.
3. Lower operating cost tank to tank and improving with rising oil price.
4. In 3-5 years with higher oil price, probably higher resale value.
In another post you talk about a 65m SAAR vehicles worldwide in 2015? There’s not enough energy to drive that many cars! Hybrids will have to be part of the mix and oil will be very expensive.
Hybrids are dead regardless of oil prices. They were never anything more than expensive fashion accessories for a manufactured crisis; gadgetry masquerading as righteousness. The world has real problems to worry about now, and will dump these goofy golf carts faster than fake sideburns before the first scheduled battery replacement.
With so many people still expecting higher oil prices (just read the comments in this thread), the bubble probably hasn’t finished bursting yet and the current rally is likely just a dead cat bounce. It could rally as high as $100 or so (recapturing 2/3 of the recent decline) before plummeting right back down and setting a true bottom. But even if I am wrong on this, I do not expect hybrids to make a comeback.
You need to get the “Plug-In” hybrids online ASAP, and keep the price in line with current hybrids. For many commuters (<20 mi/day “city” driving) this could net a 60-80MPG equivalent – and gas prices back up around $4 – $5/gal might make that payback happen a bit sooner.
This likely will require some significant improvements in battery tech, which (I hope) that the incoming administration will accelerate with funding. The electrical infrastructure upgrades to support larger numbers of these vehicles will take longer, but if you concentrate on using wind, solar and wave power where feasible, at least the southern US will be charging these cars with “cleaner” energy initially, with the goal to spread the cleaner electricity northward.
@ don1967
WTF, fashion accessory? Truck driver are you? Moon landing was a fake? Aliens in Area 51? That sort of thing?
Given your confidence I assume you’re SHORT on oil then and preparing an offer for Hummer? Or are you hoping for a 10 year recession?
I’ll give your comments a run at the next energy conference in Singapore in about 4 weeks time.
Reps from Petronas, Shell, BP and many others are expected there. I think I saw that most of the product planners and market advisers for many of the major auto manufacturers are coming. You know, the ones that think past scratching themselves today.
Probably GM/Chrysler won’t bother…..They clearly know their future is toast.
You don’t have to waste energy, just because you CAN!
Nice!!!! I always thought (and still think) hybrids ARE a fad…
There are simpler, economically more effective technologies to reduce emissions: stop and go, produce LIGHTER cars, diesel, the stratified charge engine GM and others are developing (HCCI I think), CNG, etc…
I’d take a small, efficient car over a hybrid any day. And it’s cheaper too.
I may even convert it to CNG and reduce my CO2 emissions.
All cars will be Hybrids eventually, even if its just a start/stop system like that VUE
Lighter weight cars is a good idea but harder than you think plus the perception is still that heavier is better/safer.
Bytor- the true short sighted people are the ones who dumped their SUVs, trucks and larger cars at a loss because they were panicking over gas prices. They all lost money and have cars they don’t like now.
don1967- remember you’re only talking about the Prius. All of the other Hybrids look like other cars. The Prius is fashion, the rest are engine options.
Everyone here trashed the SUV and truck hybrids. To me they were a win-win. You still get the big size that you may like and capability that you may need but also get 30% better city mileage.
Hopefully, the emphasis will change in the media from global warming (or cooling) to one of energy conservation, an old idea that should never have gone away.
But saving energy doesn’t warrant using anything electric until fusion technology is perfected.
Until then, the IC engine will rule and plugging into a power station to get your GO for the following day does NOT constitute good energy conservation practice.
@ Stingray
Do-able right now;
Lighter, yes, great get on with it. Stop/Start engines, yes but why aren’t manufacturers doing it now? Diesel, yes, but not if CO2 emissions are a concern and it is prudent to be concerned so address it.
Not do-able anytime soon;
CNG, pie in the sky. HCCI (Homogeneous charge compression ignition) has been around for decades and why bother when you can use a diesel.
Hybrid is do-able now, why not use it now. It’s just a way of collecting the wasted energy from braking and using that for the most inefficient mode of operation for the ICE which is acceleration.
now that oil is back down you will see gas taxes climb. This will be justified for road improvements, followed shortly by a need to conserve, topped off by a means to get hybrids sold again.
@ philbailey
saving energy doesn’t warrant using anything electric until fusion technology is perfected
Fusion? Not in our lifetimes or the next. As much as I personally disagree with anything nuclear it’s probably Thorium first;
Thorium Nuclear Fuel
Otherwise, two cheap, completely do-able, base load renewable technologies from Australia;
CETO Wave Power (It makes fresh water too as a by-product).
Ausra Solar Thermal with storage
A couple of weeks ago I went by my toyota dealer in my medium sized town (100k) and they had 10! USED Priuses (or what ever the plural of Prius is, no I didn’t read that article, sorry). This past summer there was a waiting list for those things. They may be cheaper now, but I think I’ll stick with my 5 speed corolla as a DD.
You can trade money for fuel to almost any degree you wish. Now that money is tight and energy is cheap you would expect people to be more willing to go towards the “fuel” side.
And therein lies the beauty of a smart car company like Toyota. They made a huge commitment well over a decade ago to develop the hybrid system and, unlike Detroit, they stuck with it, come hell or high water. The Prius began production during the years of cheap gas when high-profit large SUVs were all the rage (1997). Toyota continued to develop and improve the car, introducing it to the US market in 2001. Surprisingly, it sold well enough during those years, even though Toyota’s profit margin was likely slim to non-existant.
Then, Katrina hit and gas begin its skyrocketing cycle. Suddenly Toyota’s commitment and development to their hybrid system made them look like geniuses and, with their latest redesign in 2004 and biggest tax credits to date, there were long waiting lists for Priuses.
Now that gas is back down in price due to the heavily depressed economy and no more tax credits to soften the sticker-shock, hybrid sales have tapered off. But I don’t see Toyota abandoning the market. Small and efficient is always going to sell, it’s just a matter of degrees. The Volkswagen Beetle followed the same pattern and it had its best sales years during the sixties, the heyday of cheap gas and gas-guzzling muclecars.
Toyota knows full well that with gas prices down now, that an expensive small car like the Prius, whose greatest virtue is its great gas mileage, is going to take a hit in sales. But it won’t last, and sooner or later (likely the former), you can bet that they’ll be ready when the next gas price bubble hits.
Hell, with the recent Gaza Strip military action, gas prices have increased 20% over just the last week. If gas were still USD$4/gal, it could conceivable now be USD$4.80/gal. I doubt that hybrid sales would be tanking in that environment…
we seem to learn nothing from history. haven’t we seen this before? yes. the malaise era. gas prices will eventually rise. plug-ins are necessary if the u.s. is serious about energy independence. hybrids are a bridge to plug-ins.
I know a guy working for a Toyota dealer in the San Francisco Bay Area and he says sales are slower, but the dealership he is at is still moving Prius and Camry Hybrids at a good pace. Not the pace of 6 month ago, but at levels other brands which they had on their normal cars.
As mentioned earlier, if the technology evolves, such as plug-ins and better batteries, hybrids could become a normal part of the automotive market for decades. The nice thing is the technology could help bring full electric powered vehicles to market because of the money being spent on improving batteries. Hybrid technology can be combined with diesel, gas, or hydrogen power plants.
It is to soon to write off hybrids.
Now? When Joe & Jill have demonstrated that they have a long-time horizon shorter than that of a Fortune 500 CEO?
Simple: have a broad, but not overlapping, product line, with good products for every niche. Putting all your eggs in any one basket (hybrids, luxury, trucks) is a bad idea for any mass-market marque.
Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai/Kia more or less does this, excepting their slightly odd mid-range-truck/crossover-clusterf_ck. Ford is getting there, so is Honda. GM and Chrysler still have huge holes to fill.
There are simpler, economically more effective technologies to reduce emissions: stop and go, produce LIGHTER cars, diesel, the stratified charge engine GM and others are developing (HCCI I think), CNG, etc…
None of the stuff you’re mentioning is simple. Diesel, in particular, requires a heavy, overbuilt block, high-pressure fuel rail and injectors, a turbocharger and associated plumbing and cooling and a complex, expensive emissions system. Diesel adds about the same cost to build, and similar mass, as a hybrid system. It’s much more mechanically stessed, too. HCCI is slightly easier, but requires more than a small amount of injection trickery and suffers from real emissions trouble.
Hybrids–especially the BAS and IMA implementations–aren’t much more massive or complex (if at all) than a modern turbodiesel.
If the manufacturers are smart they will continue to produce and improve their hybrids.
Every technology goes through this phase of not being practical just quite yet. The hybrids day will come, whether its from oil prices going up or the technology prices going down or a bit of both.
While hybrids aren’t for everyone, they do have their place. I have one that I use for commuting in heavy stop and go traffic and to take the wear and tear off of the good cars. I have another car that gets about 33 to 38 on the highway when it’s cruising along in 6th gear, but only about 16 to 18 in stop and go traffic. The Prius gets about 55 mpg on my commute, but drops closer to the other car when cruising at higher speeds.
I can spend over an hour during the course of a day in nasty traffic. So the gas mileage difference and psychological effect of having the engine off instead of idling makes the hybrid worth the extra expense for me. They are certainly not for everyone, but make more sense in heavy traffic commutes in the larger East and West coast cities. Especially if the hybrid cost premium starts to drop.
YEA!!!!!!!!
Thank GOD I wont have to drive something as bad as hybrid for a while…maybe a long while,since the ‘fool me once’ reality is kicking in!
until hybrids are cheap and entertaining,they will just be a ‘fashion statement’ for the ‘well to do’
I think that you are all missing a simple point: Hybrids are complicated and are basically a dealer only vehicle. When you can’t be sure that your dealer will exist in a months time it behooves you to simplify. Get a car that CAN be fixed at Pepboys. Parts easily available at Autozone.
Yeah, the fanbois will retort that hybrids aren’t “that” complicated but to the average citizen the perception will be the opposite. Their father never had such a thing, you know.
Hybrids are complicated and are basically a dealer only vehicle.
High voltage, when perturbed, is an unforgiving mistress.
Well put, Dimwit. (It was suprisingly difficult to type that sentence respectfully)
I hear that we’re no longer willing to develop our domestic oil production.
So the way I see it, oil will rise and fall with the economy. As the economy grows, our use of oil will grow. We can’t store it, so it will once again become a limited resource. So the price will rise.
If it rises high enough, that will cause the economy to slow. And so it goes.
Toyota began manufacturing the Prius about 12 years ago. Before the last rise. That’s much longer ago than the “five years” that all the MSM points to in comparing the price of oil (ie/eg “It’s lower today than it was five years ago”).
So unless Toyota has changed its direction, I’m not too worried about being able to buy another hybrid when this one’s too tired to go any further (farther?).
==========================
Some journalistic/editor help would be appreciated. Can anybody tell me which would have been proper to use in my third paragraph… “IE” or “EG”?
And in my fourth paragraph… “further” vs. “farther”. Which to use, and when?
“High voltage, when perturbed, is an unforgiving mistress.”
Oh please.
I can’t speak for other hybrids, but the Prius is manufactured with interconnects/disconnects, and the HV cables are all clearly marked in bright orange sheathing.
Y’all should have trotted out the old “battery replacement cost” scare tactic while you were at it. :)
Unbelievable how short sighted people are and what short memories they have. Gas guzzler sales have been rebounding somewhat as well in the current gas price drop.
It is almost as if people only look at fuel prices in the week they are buying.
I buy vehicles according to what I need, not what gas prices are.
John
ZoomZoom :
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
“High voltage, when perturbed, is an unforgiving mistress.”
Oh please.
I can’t speak for other hybrids, but the Prius is manufactured with interconnects/disconnects, and the HV cables are all clearly marked in bright orange sheathing.
You don’t actually believe that good, clear labeling and proper warning are sufficient for the general public, do you? ;-)
Personally, I have been trolling about for a hybrid to rig a plugin conversion as a learning experience. But I am also comfortable working on CRT TVs without receiving a big *ZOT*. Live (or die) and learn.
More to Dimwit’s point, any technology transition requires that a new body of knowledge be built, deseminated and fully transfered beyond the initial cult following. Lots of folk can go to the “Interweb” and read it, but that isn’t enough. The fact that the retail autostores aren’t savy or at least well versed in the hybrid world is still a road block. It is all about the dealer service. And even that is limited. Try getting your Altima Hybrid serviced outside of a small portion of the US.
I’m surprised it took this long for people to see these crap cans for what they really are: Over-engineered pieces of shit.
Or under-engineered, depending upon your viewpoint.
PeteMoran, you’re putting so many words in my mouth that I couldn’t chew half of them if I tried. Shall I assume that you worship at the Church of Global Warming, where dissenting opinions are mocked and ridiculed in lieu of rational discussion?
When gas prices are low, you’d better have some guzzlers, and you should expect hybrids to suffer. When gas prices are high, you’d better have some hybrids, and you should expect guzzlers to suffer.
Gas prices go up and down… therefore you should have both.
Hybrid naysayers remind me of the anti-technology naysayers that regarded early computers as nothing but expensive, useless toys for nerds and would never amount to anything substantial.
Of course, decades later, computers are now interwoven into the fabric of virtually every facet of daily life and, ironically, offers hybrid naysayers the same ability to deny hybrid technology as an inevitability in the same way on a vastly greater scale due to the internet which was made possible by…computers…
Oh, joy. An article about hybrids is always guaranteed to bring out the haters who sneer about elitists, “fashion accessories,” and the like. Why is it so hard for people to believe that a fuel-efficient, low-emissions vehicle is a good choice? Maybe it doesn’t pay off in the shorter term, but then again, people own cars for considerable periods, these days. My family owned our previous Camry for 13 years, and we’ve had our current one for 7 already. Not everyone leases.
Furthermore, the detractors the Prius, in particular, fail to notice that the overall package is quite good. The Prius is roomier than a Corolla, but with a smaller footprint than a Camry, and has a spacious boot, to boot. It’s also quite well-equipped. It’s not an exciting car, but it’s practical, and it’s economical.
At ZoomZoom:
Further and farther are very similar. Generally, one can use either to indicate distance. Some scribes prefer to use “further” for metaphorical distance, as in the following: “The further he looked into the future, the murkier the predictions became.” Conversely, they use “farther” for distances, like this: “My car is parked farther from the mall than yours is.” In other words, farther is the superlative form of far, and further is for distances that aren’t physically measured. Also, you should use “further” exclusively if you mean “additional”, as in this case: “Further research is required.” In your example, further might be better (since we aren’t talking about a fixed physical distance), but farther would probably work, too.
As for i.e. and e.g., everyone confuses them. Use “i.e.” to mean “in other words, like this: “He immediately did a J-turn (i.e., he accelerated in reverse, cranked the wheel suddenly, and accelerated forward).” Use “e.g.” to give examples, like this: “Some supercars (e.g., the Pagani Zonda and the Spyker C8) still use traditional manual transmissions.” If you’ve got a list of examples, ALWAYS use e.g. In your example, use i.e. Whichever one you use, always follow it with a comma, and use periods (i.e., don’t write “ie he likes fish”).
See, I knew the fanbois would come. :)
This isn’t about Toyota — actually I can see a scenario where the Prius is the only hybrid left on the US market, just because it’s a Toyota and they have done their homework very well. Toyota will become like VW has with their diesels, the premier, then the only place that the tech is available because they built the market, understand it very well and are trusted.
Notice what vehicle is in the clip. A Saturn Vue. If you have x amount of precious dollars in these hard times and you need a dead nuts reliable transport that can’t cost you a penny more than what you’ve budgeted, would you trust a GM hybrid? How about a brand new Ford, i.e., anything but an Escape? Dicey, dicey proposition methinks, especially at <$2/gal. gas.
@ don1967
Shall I assume that you worship at the Church of Global Warming, where dissent is not tolerated?
Yes please. Dissent for it’s own sake is not tolerated, the scientific question, if not already, is pretty clearly answered. If you wish to participate in the “dissent because we can” crowd, encouraged by upstanding organizations like Exxon, feel free.
Referring to Hybrids as “goofy golf carts” for a “manufactured crisis”, I believe pretty well hangs you out there with the redneck, truck driving, aliening loving, loonies.
You don’t have to “believe” in Global Warming for sensible and achievable energy conservation to be a wise choice.
I drove a Prius from Arizona down to Guymas, Mexico; then drove it around on the rough streets for almost 5 weeks, then back to AZ. It seemed anything but solid and constructed for durability. Tons of squeaks and rattles from an interior that would be cheap and cobbled together by Chrysler standards. Believe it or not; last weekend when testing a G8 GT, I tested a Malibu Hybrid, a very nice car…when not painted toad green…and the interior is much better.
Dimwit- The Escape is great, the VUE meh.
carsinamerica- you said the problem, the Prius isn’t exciting. Its also expensive for what you get.
A Honda Accord is bigger
A Honda Civic costs less
A Honda Fit costs much less
All are more “exciting” cars
People only trash the Prius because Prius owners trash drivers of other cars. Especially if they drive something large. Regardless of the Prius owners’ knowledge of the other drivers.
Is Exxon evil?
I personally don’t resent hybrids..
I resent paying 20-25% more for a car without a corresponding improvement in performance.
Lets get ‘real’
How many dozens of cars are out there that offer better performance and get Excellent gas mileage
for THOUSANDS less.
As I said before…make it affordable and fun to drive or sell it as a “statement”
NOT a viable choice of transportation for most buyers.
Mention hybrids and some folks go off the deep end and starting spitting bile.
If they lived in another century they would have flipped out over the introduction of the automobile, or electricity or airplanes.
There currently isn’t a hybrid for me, but that doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the technology and it may come as a shock, but most people aren’t looking for “exciting” cars, they are looking for appliance cars.
My only concern right now is they should be making all cars more aerodynamic and efficient, not just hybrids. But hybrids are also a good transition to other electric drive technologies.
So sure build more hybrids, if you don’t like them it is nothing to raise your blood pressure over, just don’t buy one. No need to get mad and insult hybrid buyers, they may make sense to a lot of people.
@Davey49:
SOME Prius drivers trash drivers of more petrol-hungry cars. Not all, and probably not even most, I’d suspect. I know several Prius owners, and I’ve never heard them get on a high horse about moral superiority. Celebrities are a different story, but I don’t care what they say, anyway. Don’t be overbroad — it’s no more valid to excoriate Prius drivers for being arrogant than it is to say that all pickup truck drivers are rednecks. The idea of buying a Prius strictly to make a “statement” is one that can only appeal to the wealthy, who can throw money away on statements. To other people, practical considerations are more important, even if emissions reduction is one consideration.
I do agree, though, that the Prius is expensive. I will be very interested to see how Honda prices and equips the Insight. I’ve heard some crazy-low price estimates. We’ll find out at NAIAS, I suppose.
@ davey49
Is Exxon evil?
Yes.
There are a couple reasons for the fall-off in hybrid sales other than the gas price (which is a factor, I’m sure).
The first is that would-be buyers, who tend to be more literate and informed than average, are waiting for information on the 2010 Prius and on the availability of the 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid.
The second is that the dealers have not necessarily reduced their inflated prices. Our local Toyota dealer still has 28,000 price tag on a couple two year old Priuses on the lot. So they’re not too desperate.
“Dissent for it’s own sake is not tolerated, the scientific question, if not already, is pretty clearly answered. If you wish to participate in the “dissent because we can” crowd, encouraged by upstanding organizations like Exxon, feel free.
Referring to Hybrids as “goofy golf carts” for a “manufactured crisis”, I believe pretty well hangs you out there with the redneck, truck driving, aliening loving, loonies.”
PeteMoran, congratulations on getting it completely wrong. I am an educated person with a twenty-year history of driving fuel efficient cars… long before Al Gore made it a religion. By contributing nothing to this debate except calling me a redneck and linking me to Exxon, you only prove my point about the dangers of drinking the Kool Aid.
Science did not discover climate change in the last five years; it has been going on ever since there was a climate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change. If you read beyond the front page headlines there is NO legitimate scientific consensus on human causes and cures, indeed many scientists still believe that another ice age is coming. Laugh at them if you want; it just makes you a redneck too.
What has changed in the last five years is that climate change has become trendy, especially among left-leaning folks who were never comfortable with capitalism and would like to spread some of the wealth around. Do you honestly believe “carbon taxes” have anything to do with saving the planet?
I poke fun at goofy golf carts because they are a complicated, low-tech solution looking for a problem, and because they ARE fashion accessories: http://www.allabouthybridcars.com/hollywood-hybrids.htm. When someone develops a marketable car that runs on solar power, discarded banana peels or some other REAL technology, and nobody cares because gas is cheap at the time, I will be the first in line to buy it. But I will not waste my money on a hybrid car.
@ don1967
climate change
So now you’re talking about the changing climate rather than Global Warming??? Very subtle.
Do you honestly believe “carbon taxes” have anything to do with saving the planet?
I feel another conspiracy theory coming…..
Yes and no. It doesn’t have to be expensive to stop wasting fossil fuel energy, but wasting energy won’t stop while business as usual is cheap.
Maybe the rest of the USA could learn from;
Sustainability in Action
You might manage to keep some industries local rather than handing everything over to the Chinese or India.
some other REAL technology
So hybrids are an IMAGINARY solution?
It’s a perfectly logical and simple way to take otherwise wasted energy from braking and use it for the inefficient ICE acceleration phase. Why is that difficult to understand?
TNT launches Australia’s first hybrid truck fleet
These Hino trucks have proven to dramatically more fuel efficient and more reliable than their non-hybrid counterparts. Sounds like a better mousetrap rather than a golf cart.
Yes, I need to disclaim that our company was involved, and NO they were not bought as fashion accessories.
carsinamerica: “The idea of buying a Prius strictly to make a “statement” is one that can only appeal to the wealthy, who can throw money away on statements.”All cars make a statement about their owners in the sense that the owner had to make a decision to buy that particular vehicle based on some logic. It’s just that many misconstrue the statement of a Prius’ owner, usually for their own personal agenda.
While there are certainly a few that would buy a Prius to trumpet their self-righteous ‘frugal’ consumption (the opposite of the usual conspicuous consumption of someone driving, say, a Hummer), most Prius’ owners’ ‘statement’ is one of willing to spend a little more on a high mpg vehicle as a hedge against future high gas prices (and maybe a little of being environmentally conscious). It makes it easy with the Prius due to Toyota doing a superb job of efficiently packaging the vehicle, even without the hybrid system. It’s been rumored that Toyota even considered marketing a non-hybrid Prius at a reduced price.
That’s really the way to look at the Prius: it’s an efficiently designed vehicle that just happens to have an auxillary propulsion system. Absent the extra batteries (and cost), the Prius would have sold well, regardless, since the car is basically just a hatchback Camry.
I don’t know how anyone can dispute the fact that recovering lost braking energy, resulting in a more efficent, less polluting car is a bad thing – this tech needs to be encouraged.
People live in such a “bubble” in this country, still in denial that we’re one terrorist act away from sitting in lines at gas stations, even getting into fist fights over gasoline. Hybrids aren’t a “cure-all” but if the “juice” suddenly gets turned off, hybrid owners will be hated/envied even more by those who think that the status quo will continue.
I hope that the next administration makes a huge investment in hybrid vehicles, especially those Postal Service vehicles that make HUNDREDS of stops per day – hell, they could even give the contract to the Big-“3” – a-la WWII and the “jeep”. The fuel savings would not be great with gas @ <$2/gal, but a great insurance policy against the inevtable rise to come. I’d be willing to bet that a tangible decrease in maintenance costs could be realized in high stop-and-go usage, as the EM/battery absorbs, then supplies the highest stress parts of vehicle operation, namely acceleration/deceleration.
@ shaker
I’d be willing to bet that a tangible decrease in maintenance costs could be realized in high stop-and-go usage, as the EM/battery absorbs, then supplies the highest stress parts of vehicle operation, namely acceleration/deceleration.
No need to bet, those numbers are in! You’re right and for the reasons you mention.
It’s also likely that the ICE part of the hybrid system can be made slightly lighter due to the lower than observed stresses too. That has a direct effect again in reduced weight or the battery carrying capability of the hybrid vehicle.
Someone may know (Bertel?), but either DHL (or at least one of the European postal companies) is about to embark on hybrid pickup/delivery vans, and have the fleet changed by 2015.
I will insist in my idea that CNG is a valid solution to reduce CO2 emissions. The technology is already developed.
And no, it’s not a pie in the sky… CNG use is growing worldwide.
Stingray:
And no, it’s not a pie in the sky… CNG use is growing worldwide.
Fleet use of CNG vehicles is done cost effectively.
I don’t see Hybrids taking over except in niches. Americans dislike golf carts and like powerful engines.
@ihatetrees
Fleet use of CNG vehicles is done cost effectively.
Not only… there are incentives in some countries (which show the biggest grow) for the use of CNG in passenger cars
@ Stingray
it’s not a pie in the sky… CNG use is growing worldwide
It’s true it’s growing, for bus transport particularly where the weight penalty is not as significant.
CNG suffers slightly more problems than LPG. To create CNG, you have to compress and COOL it massively which is quite energy intensive. You also end up with a very heavy high pressure cylinder. CNG while plentiful in many areas (like Australia), is not “spare” in the USA (for example), your entire supply is sold into electricity generation.
Toyota are looking at it. I believe they showed a Camry with largish cylinder for about 100 mile range. They say that it’s not compelling and they likely won’t be pursuing it. BMW have ceased their program as have Renault.
PeteMoran: So now you’re talking about the changing climate rather than Global Warming??? Very subtle.
He’s only following the lead of those who were originally talking about Global Warming, who changed the subject to “climate change” because the earth’s climate isn’t acting the way that they said it would.
rudiger: While there are certainly a few that would buy a Prius to trumpet their self-righteous ‘frugal’ consumption (the opposite of the usual conspicuous consumption of someone driving, say, a Hummer), most Prius’ owners’ ’statement’ is one of willing to spend a little more on a high mpg vehicle as a hedge against future high gas prices (and maybe a little of being environmentally conscious).
I looked at a hybrid Civic yesterday at the local Honda dealer. The sticker price for the Civic Hybrid is $5,000 more than a comparably equipped regular Civic.
Sorry, but $5,000 buys a lot of gas, even at $4 a gallon, and it represents a lot more than “a little more” when it comes to purchase price for a new car. At least, for us…
According to Honda, comparably equipped should be about $3K difference (it is closest to a an EX automatic).
Still though I agree. Unless you drive a lot, you likely wont achieve payback on the extra.
Still I might pay that extra if they made the right hybrid (like and Insight with manual transmission).
I would like have super long cruising range for long trips, but heck just build me a regular non-hybrid insight with a decent size fuel tank and decent tall geared manual.
The things I value most actually have nothing to do with hybrid: Long cruising range, good highway mileage, aerodynamic and efficient design(low RPM in top gear).
But it seems like you have to get a hybrid before they will give you those things.
geeber: “I looked at a hybrid Civic yesterday at the local Honda dealer. The sticker price for the Civic Hybrid is $5,000 more than a comparably equipped regular Civic.”The Civic hybrid, while not a bad car, certainly isn’t one of the better hybrid purchases. Besides the high premium, it’s not a particularly good hybrid in terms of performance, either. A recent Edmunds road test on the latest 2009 version confirmed that it is one of the slowest vehicles currently available (0-60 of around 13.5 seconds), making the Prius (3 seconds faster) look like a veritable rocket-sled in comparison.
In essence, you really have to want a Civic hybrid badly since you’ll pay one of the highest premiums to get one of the slowest cars currently in production. It is a much better example than the Prius for those who decry hybrids as making no economic sense.
Actually the best “hybrid” investment is to drive whatever you want, but move close to your work.
I did, and now my 240hp SUV burns less gas per year than the average goofy golf cart. But that’s just me… more concerned about the environment than in gadgetry masquerading as self-righteousness.
@ don1967
Self-righteous SUV driver; hybrid is just so hard to understand isn’t it??
Move closer to where you work?? You would then agree with the central premise of this film;
End Of Suburbia and it’s sequel Escape from Suburbia.