Time to update “the future of car?” Yup. GM’s Car Czar has admitted that Pontiac has a new motto: “Pontiac is toast.” Automotive News [sub] reports that Bob Lutz has admitted that GM is trimming Pontiac’s line-up to five vehicles– if you count the Solstice hardtop as a separate model. Which we don’t. That leaves Pontiac with four vehicles: the doomed Australian-sourced G8, the G5, the Toyota co-production Vibe and the dead-in-the-water “we don’t need no stinkin’ trunk space” Solstice. Maximum Bob’s admission that Pontiac is being strategically reviewed to death comes hard on the heels of GM NA Prez Troy Clarke’s assertion that GM will “follow through with plans to shrink to four core brands.” That would be Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC; ditching HUMMER, Saab, Pontiac and… Saturn. “‘We’ve entered into a very, very open and candid dialogue with our Saturn retailers,” Clarke said. Saturn, launched 19 years ago, has been successful in terms of brand attributes, he said. But ‘it just hasn’t been a good business for us… We need some breakthrough options here. We can’t continue brands that have no prospect of earning their way.'” It took them how long to figure this out? And, by the way, whose fault is that?
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What happened to the G3… do they come to their senses?
Yeah, there’s a flaw in there. The G3 is the Chevy Aveo, the G5 is the Cobalt.
So let the G8 die.
Give Chevy the Solstice/Sky, as Saturn is dying too.
Transfer the Vibe to Chevy. (Anybody remember Geo?)
Poof! End Pontiac.
Not bad, but GM should cut Pontiac down to the G8, Solstice, Vibe, and Firebird/Trans Am (re-done Camaro).
No one would cry over the loss of the G3, G5, G6, and Torrent.
Actually I am happy with the resources saved by not making these fluke imitations with a different badge.
eggsalad
Long day. Text amended.
“No one would cry over the loss of the G3, G5, G6, and Torrent”.
I agree, and would not like to see Pontiac die off.
Whats sad is that if GM culled every good car it made and put it into one brand, they’d have a helluva good brand, but apparently that is not to be.
Like others have asked: What does this mean for the G3? Will they even make it, or will they euthanize it before it even reaches the market? (not that I care about the trashy rebadge, I’m just curious)
How are Pontiac GMC Buick dealers going to survive?
Buick/GMC…. and many of them will get failing Chevy territories.
It’s doubtful that these dealerships will want to add the extra expense and infrastructure of another mausoleum. Unless the dealerships are literally next door to each other, GM will literally shutter one and give the brand to the other.
Pontiac
Saturn
Hummer
Saab
None of these brands are economically viable. However you can be sure that the ensuing payoff of the Saturn dealers will be far more generous than their actual market value.
GM and America owes them nothing… but don’t expect them to believe it. They’re ENTITLED to compensation for investing in a failed business model. It’s the GM way.
This is really simple folks. gm has 4 products worth saving. Chevrolet Silvarado, Corvette, and Malibu. Cadillac CTS.
Serious, this is it.
Chevy/GMC/Buick/Caddy is probably 1 or 2 brands too many, but given GMC is just a bunch of rebadged Chevys and Buick will soon be a bunch of rebadged Opels (more or less), it’s close enough. Too bad it takes their imminent doom for GM to make the right decisions.
Here’s hoping that G8 becomes a Buick Grand National.
Here’s hoping that G8 becomes a Buick Grand National.
The G8, in any badge, will cannibalize the CTS. As good as it is, it’s a bad idea for North America. Pontiac stood the greatest chance of making it work. Buick? No way.
Keep the G8 somehow, whether it’s at Pontiac or Chevrolet as the new Imapala or wherever. Just don’t stop making it and don’t just leave it alone. Update it to improve it.
Hummer and Jeep to AM General? AM General to pick over the Chry dealerships to stitch together a distribution system?
Fold Buick into the “Classic” trim lines of Chevy (but make it an honest value-add for the money).
Fold Pontiac into the “SS” trim lines of Chevy.
Move the ‘vette to Cadillac, including all design and engineering staff, to work with the Cad sports group to help get the Cad sports cars out of the ditch. From the top of GM to the top of Cadillac: “You so much as touch the ‘vette and we’ll break your face. This is a marketing move to snatch the drivers coming out of the ‘vette. We want them wandering through the Cad dealerships buying ‘vette parts so they know where to come post-‘vette.”
Sadly, Ok, Saturn has to go. General Motors, other than Roger Smith did not get it then, does not get it now, and will never get it in the future. GM is too stupid, arrogant, and full of hubris to make it work.
Others have stated that Saab was gutted many years ago and is little more than a badge with few takers. Ok, close the doors on it.
“What will the Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealers do?”
Well, for starters, they could frame those godawful “First Ever G6” posters.
And, they could try to push the useless Solstice on you before they go kaputt.
But wait! There’s more! My local Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealer is also a Saturn dealer! And, this is the same for my former city.
Oh, and if anyone wants to know … Andy Sims Buick in Broadview Heights, Ohio is apparently no longer a standalone Buick showroom. It’s getting bad, folks, there’s not enough old farts in south suburban Cleveland. (He has another Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer in the Cleveland metro.)
I haven’t been this giddy since the Oldsmobile franchises were crashing.
“GM will ‘follow through with plans to shrink to four core brands.’ That would be Buick, Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC”
I sort of understand. They need Buick so they can sell it to the Chinese. Chevy and Caddy have some sparks of life.
But GMC. What are they thinking. Do they live just to cannibalize their own sales. Is there any possible explanation for this?
Hmmm, I’ve been calling Saturn a failed experiment for at least a dozen years. Someone tell GM I’m available as a management consultant for under $200/hour.
The sooner the dolts focus on Chevrolet and Cadillac, the sooner they have a prayer to arise from the dead. Whatever it takes to get there three years ago is what needs doing.
GMC is sort of a don’t care. It costs almost nothing to keep alive just as Mercury=Ford + trim options. Unfortunately GM got out of the medium and heavy duty truck businesses. Otherewise GMC would have made a lot of sense as a real broad line truck dealer. Neutering GMC by selling off all the big stuff kind of killed the reason for the brand to exist.
Buick China makes sense, but Buick USA is also a dead brand.
Market changed. ALL vehicle volumes are reduced (yes, even for the Japanese).
Marginally profitable products will become unprofitable. These will be cut.
Simple stuff.
i dont understand the need for Buick and Cadillac.
Though i also don’t think having Pontiac/Cadillac would make sense either. if Pontiac became a niche RWD brand, they’d likely be based on Cadillac platforms.
I think it would have made sense to have Saturn/Chevy/Cadillac/GMC. keeping Saturn as Corolla-size and under brand, like they used to be.
GMC is just a bunch of rebadged Chevys
I for one have always thought the GMCs were better looking.
Too bad about Saturn, just as they were getting their product mojo going….
Meanwhile the area Buick dealer (NW Houston) closed up shop last week; they had moved out to the burbs around 15 years ago from Buick ground zero – River Oaks, where the hair runs blue and the money mega old.
Crazy times to be a domestic dealer….
yea i dont get this. first off, y keep gmc? rebadged chevy trucks in this economy? bad move. maybe they are keeping it around for the commercial grade vehicles, but those can be part of chevy. and then y have buick and caddy? dont those 2 cancel each other out in a way? because iam pretty sure once your option out the new lacrosse it will be in cts territory, and a fully loaded enclave ( as nice as it is) will most likley close in on price on the new srx. gm should be this:
chevy: mass market appeal a la toyota
cadillac: american luxury like lexus,mbz,bmw,etc..
pontiac: maybe niche but sporty or sport cars.
pontiac could pick up where chevy and ss abandoned its buyers who cant afforded a corvette and dont want an hhr or cobalt ss. can some one tell me how to get in contact wit gm about this cuz really i cant sit by and let this dumb decision go. really tell me how people. think about this.
@realpower1 :
This is really simple folks. gm has 4 products worth saving. Chevrolet Silvarado, Corvette, and Malibu. Cadillac CTS.
Corsa, Astra, Zafira…?
@CaliCarGuy :
cadillac: american luxury like lexus,mbz,bmw,etc..
Lexus is the polar opposite of BMW. What should Cadillac make?
realpower1,
You seriously don’t consider the Tahoe or Suburban worth keeping?
No one would cry over the loss of the … G6…
Enterprise, Avis, Hertz…
Seriously though I actually don’t mind how the G6 looks. Not striking by any means, but handsome enough, with a minimum of clutter. Pretty lousy interior though.
It’s a 7/10ths design…at 9/10ths it might have made it.
So, the Sky is gone then? Pity, I like it more than the Solstice. With that gone, is there even enough volume to make it worthwhile building just the Solstice? I wouldn’t be surprised to see it bow out.
Seriously though I actually don’t mind how the G6 looks. Not striking by any means, but handsome enough, with a minimum of clutter.
No. Not at all. It has a minimum of clutter compared to the preceding plastic-cladding disasters, but that’s damning with faint praise.
Handsome enough with a minimum of clutter is the E34, or for a more modern example, the first-generation TSX. Next to either of these, the G6 looks like a lump.
All well and good, but they’ve got their Pontiac strategy completely wrong. The models need to be:
1- Solstice roadster/hardtop coupe
2- RWD mid-sized G6 replacement (low-end of mid-sized in weight/bulk)
3- Pontiac G8 (build it with the Camaro to drop the price a bit)
4- Pontiac Firebird (again, with the Camaro)
Will Pontiac end up like Buick and have only 3 models. Under Way-goner and Putz GM will eventually find itself with a 15% marketshare.
How can it be argued that Pontiac is sporty?
The Camaro, Corvette, and Cobalt SS are all Chevy. The G8 might be a great car, but clearly Chevy is the sport division from low price to high.
How long is this death by attrition going to take? Glad to hear GM admit the structure of their company is completely unsustainable but I’ll believe they are actually going to eliminate brands when I see it. My guess, by the time they shut down Pontiac and Saturn they’ll have already created 3 new brands.
What about Opel,Vauxhall, Holden ?
Well, I guess they’ve done market research and I haven’t, but from my perspective, going forward it would seem Saturn would be a stronger brand than Buick. Most people younger than 30 that I know would never buy a Buick but are “ok” with Saturn. Maybe if they put more cars like the Aveo in Saturns line (Like the old economical SL used to be) instead of making Saturn “Opel 2”, it would be even stronger.
Regardless, Buick may be a stronger brand now, but the people buying them are going to be retiring and doing the ‘buy a car and hang on to it until I die’ thing.
I’d make GMC the Truck Brand for all pickups -period – and I would make all the trucks “professional grade” for real, with heavier components than the cars. I’d also give them almost all the SUV’s… keeping only the Escalade as a Caddy.
But then, I would have handled Brand Management in general a little diffrently:
Chevys are the base models. The small engines the cloth interiors.
You want a big engine for that car and a little nicer interior? It’s Pontiac version.
You want a real nice interior and more power than the Chevy? That’s the Buick.
You want something better than the Buick – something that most people can’t afford? Something flashy but classy? Then you want a Caddy, but you’re going to pay for it. Corvette goes with Caddy.
Engineering money goes into ‘real content’ rather than styling deviations.
All the dealers become GM dealers, and any of them can sell you a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, or GMC truck/suv.
Caddy/Corvette remains a stand alone.
See, this is the problem GM faces. Read through these posts. Everyone, including myself likes a particular brand. Some say keep Pontiac and kill Buick. Others kill Saab but keep Saturn. Kill GMC and keep the Caddy? Know this, GM is going to lose customers whatever brand they close. It would be better I think to slim down the line up for those brands, stop competing with itself, and build their cars smarter. IMHO, rebadging is only good for external markets. Yes, sell Opals and Holdens in America as Chevy’s or Pontiacs. Don’t compete against yourself with a Solstice/Sky, GMC/Chevy Pickup or Camero/TransAm.
Only a few years ago GM created a two-tier system where Chev, Saturn, GMC and Cadillac were top-tier and second tier was the rest. If GM can’t maintain a single vision for more than 18 months straight, well, you can fill in the rest.
@ Lokki: There is no apparent difference there in your “Pontiac” and your “Buick.”
Did anyone notice that all the concepts or 2010 models shown at NAIAS are Buicks, Cadillacs, and Chevrolets? Pontiac and Saturn will wither away.
I don’t understand the count. Four brands plus Pontiac equals five, right? Why do I feel like I’m still in some 1984-esque Newspeak world, like we had when the bailout occurred?
“We can’t continue brands that have no prospect of earning their way.” Well, in my opinion, one model that won’t earn its way will be the Volt, so I predict it will never see the showroom, or if it does, it will hasten GM’s demise since it will be a money loser from Day One.
But then, I would have handled Brand Management in general a little diffrently:
The problem with this, and any theory that keeps more than one or two brands per region, is that you still have the marketing costs. If you want to sell Chevrolets with different interiors and bigger engines as Pontiacs, why not just put the money into improving the Chevy’s interior and offer the engine and suspension as an option? By doing so, you’ve saved a whole whack of design and marketing costs.
There’s a very small argument that could be made for selling brand-incompatible products under a different roof: for example, hocking the Opel Meriva or Zafira in North America under the Saturn brand, or the Saab 9-3 and 9-5—assuming they could be made competitive with your average Audi. But you have to make sure than anything you sell in such a channel would pass a test: a) it would make no sense, or actively damage an existing brand, b) it doesn’t cannibalize buyers of existing products. Chevrolets as Pontiacs or Buicks fail such a test miserably.
Oh, and you have GM’s inability to control brand creep. They’ve shown a terminal ability to a car of every class for each division, even when they’ve sworn they wouldn’t do this sort of thing.
I’m still way skeptical that they can make Cadillac a credible world luxury brand. The CTS alone won’t cut it, Europe especially will still caricature the marque by chaining it to its barge-like past.
mtypex & psarhjinian
Sadly, you’re both right. There’s no way to save Pontiac at all.
Ol’Poncho – Make sure that you enjoy that dinner there, and then come meet me behind the barn, by the big tree with the rope hanging from it. I have a surprise (not really a surprise, actually) for you.
Sic transit Pontiac mundi
My favourite quote regarding Pontiac, I believe from Car And Driver, said something along the lines of “(Car X) follows the formula of Pontiac style excitement – an overly sensitive throttle pedal and a loud exhaust.” That about sums it up for me; I will lament the G8 if it dies, but not as much as I would if they put the price in line with expectations (up here in the Great White North a G8 GT retails for 42K, no incentives, while 35K will buy you a fully loaded Challenger R/T. Huh? More ridiculous is the fact that 37K will buy you a new G37 sedan, which would trounce the G8 on all fronts except number of cylinders).
The local dealer in my hometown is staggering – and not in a good way. It is (deep breath) a Chevrolet/GMC/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac/Hummer dealer. Saturn and SAAB are, thankfully, located across town. Not only that, but across the highway from that super dealer is ANOTHER Chevy/GMC dealer. I’d say it’s time to seperate the wheat from the chaff, yesterday.
On another note, that Solstice coupe is pretty sexy looking. I see more than a whiff of TVR in that design, and I like. Too bad it’s not nearly bonkers enough to warrant that comparison.
I’m still way skeptical that they can make Cadillac a credible world luxury brand. The CTS alone won’t cut it, Europe especially will still caricature the marque by chaining it to its barge-like past.
They shouldn’t try. There’s no shame in Cadillac being GM’s luxury brand in North America, and Saab doing the same in Europe. Every brand does not need to be all things to all people—that road leads us to crap like the BLS and 9-7x, both of which fail their respective brands, while cannibalizing their intracompany equivalent.
Let Saab take on Audi, and perhaps BMW, in Europe. Let Cadillac fight Lexus and Mercedes in North America. There’s absolutely no shame in either brand being a niche product in their non-native markets.
Let Mercedes, BMW and Audi make those mistakes. Goodness knows, products like the R-Class and X6 show they’re more than willing to.
Well Waygoner and Klutz have finally brought Pontiac to this. Way to go geniuses. Cloned Chevys, dumb meaningless letter names, no more Firebird, a G5 Cobalt clone WITHOUT even the Cobalt 2.0 DI turbo engine performance, SUV’s and minivans, generic styling, FWD, imported Aussie’s with Pontiac grilles, the Toyota Vibe and absolutely zero brand recognition. Expect to see market share and sales drop each year that these morons are left in charge of this once great division.
Everyone wants their favorite brand to stay… but I’d even cull further personally.
1. Chevy
2. Cadillac
and there is no third.
What does GMC bring to the table that you can’t just offer with Chevy? Buick? Nothing. The label doesn’t matter as much as marketers think it does, what the label represents does. If Chevy sells heavy duty trucks with good warranty service, the commercial crowd will be fine with it. If they come out with “plush” editions of their cars with fake convertible tops, the Buick crowd (I don’t know if crowd is the right word) will be okay in the end too.
You might need some differentiation for luxury marque. But that would mean deciding Cadillac is a luxury brand for everyone, or continue their “I’m oh so macho it hurts” styling.
The only one I am sad to see go is Saturn. And that is only because it reflected my hope that we could finally get Euro-spec cars here without the inevitable softening and cheapening that usually happens. But GM probably can’t even handle the two brands I am leaving them with, much less another “quirky” brand.
When you have success for years on end, so much success that an operating loss year (when you still made profit) is reported in the news as a sign of doom… then you can resurrect or launch marques. But until that day keep it simple and focus on core competencies.