TTAC’s posting policy is clear, and clearly stated (above the posting box): no flaming the website, its authors or fellow commentators. I’ve explained the policy many times; it’s not about promoting a particular point-of-view. It’s about maintaining sufficient civility to engender honest, informed and passionate debate. Scartooth’s comments may have been a bit short on the informed side of the equation, but they represented a perspective which he has a right to hold and share. A perspective that gives us insight into the opinions of an increasingly bewildered and vocal segment of the U.S. population. That said, when Scartooth stepped over the line with a couple of racial slurs (which we don’t allow as a matter of course), he was warned. When Scartooth dissed his fellow commentators (who dares trip trap across this bridge?), he was banned. I am not delighted with his departure. Nor am I happy about some of the responses to his comments– since deleted. But I will defend TTAC’s comments section with vigilance and discipline. Feel free to discuss our posting policy below, but know this: I’d sooner cut off comments altogether than allow outside contributions to descend into meaningless name-calling.
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Thanks. He seemed a extreme, like the tin-foil-hat brigades on other boards.
I am apart of several sites for auto lovers and I have run into several that attack and insult a persons personal views of a perticular automoble. As for my self I dont agree with the bailouts but do agree that something needs to be done about the American companies dire straights. Most on this site as others dont agree with me on this but I have never insulted any because of their view and I dont think anyone has done the same with me. I have been disagreed with but never insulted. However I do see some comments as boderline. That being said I appreciate the views of this site and the oversite of it. If you say that he needed to be banned then I agree.
TBH, I haven’t seen any insults by scartooth…at least nothing that I would remember. To me, he did seem to be more like your average troll. He didn’t react to any counter arguments at all and just repeated his unsubstantiated points over and over again.
Anyway, the comments section is a big part of what makes this site so great. So it’s obvious that there have to be strict no-flaming rules and I support any action to keep the comments section civil.
It’s a shame that such drastic action was neccessary, but it’s totally understandable, given the racial slurs and pejorative comments.
Perhaps a second chance? I always reflect with WWJD in situations such as this. Just my 2 cents worth.
Glad to see a lack of overt name calling here; that’s the least pleasant aspect of the blogosphere. However, TTAC still has a fair amount of group think that tends to show up regarding more “political” issues such as the bailout, global warming and labor relations. Of late I’ve found myself largely steering clear of those discussions and spending more time elsewhere. I suppose you could call that a win-win.
Thank you.
I’m a little late to the party;
What’d he do? I know what the Reader’s Digest condensed explanation is but what, exactly, did he do?
I wouldn’t say completely uninformed. About 40% of what Scartooth said made some kind of sense. He was just too obsessed about his pet talking points that he couldn’t stay on message. I didn’t see any racial epithets but what I did read was cringeworthy, speaking as TTAC’s house Detroit defender. The guy was playing in the deep water when he should have been in the kiddie pool.
I have been on websites where a “banned” word is blocked with **** or the like. So I can say fuuck but not f***. Racism should never be allowed in society, but an opinion is just that, right or wrong. You allow the word fucking but have a problem with racist words or name calling. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words on the internet ….. who cares?
Scartooth was properly warned,it would only take a few more like him to ruin the site.
RIP; you could scan it without reading it and tell it was going to be a waste of precious time.
Never heard of him!
I think I might qualify as a Detroit defender also.I too have had TTACs guidelines pointed out to me on more than one occasion.While I disagree with the editorial stance at TTAC,I will defend Mr Farago’s right to run his site as he sees fit.
I would suspect that scartooth was was given lots lots of 2nd a 3rd chances, I was.As my dad used to say”if you fuck with the bull,don’t be suprised if you get a taste of the horn.
I didn’t read any racism,but I could see it going
that way.Robert wisely axed the dude before he crossed that line.
Thanks RF for taking action. I like hearing contrasting viewpoints and opinion, I like to learn from others whenever possible. Scartooth had his sword drawn and it was looking very much like his way or the hiway .. A crash seemed to be coming, thanks for the save.
I don’t think scartooth’s departure merited a topic. Folks familiar with the site could see it coming (see mikey’s remarks).
I got a laugh out of Ronnie’s comments above… That’s a straight-up acknowledgement of the role he’s taken on. A daunting task, to be sure. But, Ronnis, you have more company in that quest than you acknowledge. Most just aren’t as good as you. And I admire the way you defend Detroit, at least sometimes. Your “In Praise of Detroit’s HVAC” was a very good article. Find something to praise and do it in a straightforward, well supported way.
Which reminds me… I meant to post a semi-rebuttal…
Good riddance. You know what the greatest thing about living in a free country is? We have the freedom to choose how we spend our money, what we do for a living, where we live, and who governs. I don’t see how less choices (even if we are talking about what kind of car sits in the driveway) enhances our freedom. Frankly, I would love to drive an American car – just as soon as they build something that really is as good as(and meets my needs as well as) the import that I currently own. In some cases they do, but not if you are looking for a compact. Here’s the thing – it’s not my responsibility to keep these guys in business, but it is their responsibility to earn my business. If a better choice exists and I’m told I can’t make it on some type of moral grounds, it’s insulting to my democratic ideals. It’s also not just a little hypocritical to be told that in order to protect my freedom, I need to limit my freedom. And, frankly, the last time I checked, France, Japan, Germany, and many other foreign countries do have excellent standards of living and first class records on things like human rights. As far as environmental degradation is concerned, the US is one of but a handful of countries that didn’t sign the Kyoto treaty. The aforementioned other countries all did, as far as I know. Let’s get back to discussing The Truth About Cars, and call them as we see them. When GM deserves praise, I’m sure they will receive it. Toyota will (and should) too, for that matter.
It has nothing to do about defending Detroit or bashing Detroit. As pointed out, a couple of such other flamers and the site would crash. All you had to do was look at LeftLaneNews a few months back.
I read the Detroit defenders here just the same as everyone else, and thanks for posting. The commentary on TTAC news and editorials is the highest quality in the industry.
I didn’t see the racial slurs either, but I’m not surprised.
In scartooth’s defense, I would say that being ineloquent or having extreme views should not be a disqualify anybody from making comments on TTAC. I find that to be generally true, but it’s worth repeating.
In my personal opinion, the various comments sections on TTAC have become more of an echo chamber than ever before (since August of 2006 anyway).
There are more “me too” comments than I can ever remember. It also seems like many people are just trying to be more clever than the last person in trashing something, praising something, etc.
In other words: there is indeed A LOT of groupthink.
Maybe the site should dispense with the so-called “Best and Brightest” moniker. No one — on this site anyway — needs to have their ass kissed anymore before a word even comes out of their mouth.
At any rate, the site — which I have read thoroughly every day for years — is not as much fun as I remember. The banter within the comments is a lot less stimulating, to be sure.
So I say: step up your game, people! Be original! And lighten up while you’re at it. This isn’t The Truth About Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, nor is it the The Truth About How Much Smarter I Am Than You.
I didn’t really see any of the comments in question. That being said, if banning a legitimate poster (i.e. not a spambot or obvious troll) is such a rare event that it warrants its own post, the board does a very good job of being civil. It’s also good to see that contrary views are tolerated, but of course understandable that racism and direct attacks are not.
I’m sorry, I should have prefaced my previous comment by stating that scartooth’s MO was basically to assume a pro-UAW stance on matters by taking a characteristically “anti” approach on anything foreign. I happen to be one of those folks who believe that foreign competition is one of the best things that could have happened to Detroit’s products (if not their stock value). Cars like the new Malibu and Fusion Hybrid are really, really darned good, but it is my opinion that they had to be (with Toyota’s Camry and Honda’s Accord in control of the US D-segment market). I still think that cars like the Cobalt and Caliber have a long ways to go. I wouldn’t consider either on the merit of where they are made alone. If I reward incompetence with my hard earned cash, what incentive is there to improve these sorry whips?
Thanks for the explanation.
It’s about maintaining sufficient civility to engender honest, informed and passionate debate.
‘Civility’ is one of my favorite words. So is ‘appropriate’. Both are usually defined by one’s surroundings. Behavior perfectly acceptable during a night out with the boys, would be deemed inexcusable at a viewing in a funeral home.
As one who has received a timely warning in the past, I believe Mr Farago does his best to encourage free-spirited comment and debate without the stone cold somberness of an over-regulated forum.
As owner/manager of this site, the judgment calls are his to make. In my view, he does a damn fine job of it.
RF you are loaded with common sense. Unfortunately, some people will always push the envelope.
For those who missed it, Scartooth posted a lot of comments on the GM and Toyota: A Tale of Two Losers article. His posts were largely lucid and had some thought behind them. He likes GM and the United States, and dislikes Toyota and Japan. As Farago says, his viewpoint is one that should be heard.
But there was something about the whole episode that did not seem right. There was a paranoia there — I think the guy might have mental problems. He ended one of his posts with “Remember Pearl Harbor.” I think he really meant it.
Banning makes sense. Were it a political correctness issue, I would object. But when someone is abusing the forum like he was, by the manner of his comments and not because of their content, it was time to step in. Good call, in my opinion.
I didn’t see what scartooth did to draw the death penalty, but it seems to me that creating this topic announcing his departure draws more attention to him than any of his posts. Before this topic drew attention to scartooth, I can’t say I remember anything he posted. Now I’m compelled to look for it.
I hope Scar was banned for egregious behavior. Not for differing opinion.
I just looked, and the comments from Scartooth that I remember seem to be still there. So perhaps there were other posts I did not see.
Does scartooth really mean South Carolina Dentist? Just curious.
How does anyone defend the actions of the Detroit automakers anymore? Really. Defending the likes of Red Ink Rick is ridiculous. Perhaps could even be borderline brain-washed. Not that I’m name calling or anything…
Banning flaming is what enables people from all sides of the political spectrum to discuss various issues. Some of the discussions don’t go anywhere anymore, for the most part, like global warming, but at least they don’t degenerate into flame wars, and further out on the plus side, sometimes its possible to learn something from people who strongly disagree with me, because the discourse is civil.
I always think topics like this are pretty funny as it is kinda petty compared to real life. I don’t remember this dude, and there are plenty of valid reasons to ban a guy, so whatever. Censorship is needed sometimes, but it is such a fine line and usually crosses to the side of too much. Has been my personal experience here too. At the end of the day, I question myself for choosing to post on this topic. I think there is something wrong with me.
I couldn’t agree more with CohibaStep above – the groupthink on this website has become staggering over the recent months. Rather than constructive discussion, comments sections for articles have become groups of cronies saying “hear, hear,” perhaps out of genuine agreement, fear of being banned for having dissenting views, or a combination of both.
Racial slurs are inexcusable and should not be tolerated, but I think bringing this issue to the forefront presents a good opportunity to move the standards of discussion away from mindless head-nodding agreement all the time.
In my country, Great Britain, when somebody stands up in Parliament, and makes a statement, you often hear a chorus of ‘hear, hear’. The chorus is saying, we agree, we agree. I do not hear anyone saying this is mindless head nodding.
I look forward to more ‘mindless head nodding’ on this site.
First and foremost, thank you RF for standing by your principles for TTAC. Secondly, thank you for deleting a post addressed toward Scartooth.Being overly critical of him only made me look like an donkey’s rear and added nothing of value. Long live TTAC.
Its so hard to be a Moderator in times like we all live in, Robert did the right thing imho!
RF, the larger issue I see is why so many people have gotten on the net and doing such a lousy job of advocating for Detroit. If this is the new standard of literacy and logic in this country, it’s time for firearms, sandbags, survival rations and woodstoves — not new cars.
It seems that hundreds and hundreds of people have gotten online and are just digging the hole deeper.
If my snarky comments on his making me closer and closer to buying a Prius are gone from TTAC, I won’t take it personally. But really, there are a lot of people out there trying to speak on behalf of the D3 who should just take themselves away from the keyboard.
FWIW, you can use a plugin called Greasemonkey for FireFox. With a little googling for instructions, you can write a simple script to automagically remove comments on sites like AutoBlog, and any other.
Without that, I’d only visit 3 sites in total.
no flaming the website, its authors or fellow commentators.
Sounds good. In practice, this can be and has been used to delete comments just because they are critical of the administration of TTAC. No profanity or racism, just sober criticism of a TTAC editorial statement. TTAC is loud and long in criticizing others, but does not tolerate anything critical of TTAC and thinks any criticism is flaming. It seems that those who dish it out should tolerate it.
To quote Truman, “if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
Saw this coming almost from his first post.
I thought “either he will learn to be more polite or he will be hasta-la-bye-bye”.
I’ve had one or two comments snuffed myself. Keeps a guy focused.
Their are plenty of guys on this site from all points of view, pro-Detroit, pro-Japan (but rarely pro-Toyota), pro or anti bailout. It was not his views, it was his, IMO, nasty attitude.
This is probably the biggest reason I post on TTAC. I have left other sites because I got sick of wading through Troll Poop and listening to their mindless verbal vomit.
You’re doing it right RF. This is the only remotely sane auto forum I’ve been on.
With respect always,
Bunter
While Scartooth earned his fate and I have great respect for this sites standards, there is no doubt in my mind that there is somewhat of an elitist side to most discussions here. I know my own basic writing skills are well below most the higher intellects that post here on a regular basis. That said my automotive opinion is just as valid as anyone else here, hell I know its more valid than some. As a fan of the U.S. auto makers it is of course assumed that I’m from the shallow end of the gene pool. Thats okay with me if it helps some smart guys ego I’m glad to be of service.
TTAC its self I feel is more balanced and fair in its assessment of the industry on a whole. Though you guys sure love to flame Wagner, Lutz, and all. Any guy that was a driving force behind the Dodge Viper coming to be… well I’m going to cut him some slack when he puts his foot in his mouth now and then.
Hey and unless your motive is to save the planet, there is no reason to buy a Prius.
I’ve been visiting TTAC for almost 18 months now and contribute to discussions on occasion. In all honesty, I didn’t read anything so inflammatory and abusive from Scartooth that I haven’t seen before from other postings. I’m not condoning Scartooth but just saying that other posters have done at least as bad in the past on various articles.
I’ve also seen selective enforcement of the no flaming policy. Awhile back, Justin Berkowitz wrote an article (forget the title) saying that America was contributing to the worldwide food shortage by fueling our large vehicles with corn ethanol, E85, E10, etc. When I had the audacity to post the question of why is it America’s responsibility to feed the rest of the world, especially starving 3rd world countries that don’t practice population control, Justin had a cow and proceeded to flame me and ridicule my comments to other posters. He played the PC and race card (even though I never mentioned race or was un-PC in anyway) and took a self righteous and morally indignant attitude of my opinions. All the while, I never attacked him personally (like he did me). I was just expressing my civil, honest point of view on the article. I remained issue based.
Guess if one is a contributing editor, one gets preferential treatment and doesn’t have to follow the rules of TTAC like the rest of us.
Acting to encourage some standards of civility and appropriateness is a good thing. Read contributed comments to just about any Politico website news story to see what I would guess is an anything goes policy can lead to. It is strange, their articles are detailed and comprehensive, but the general level of the commenta are well, lets just say TTAC comments are many cuts above the average comment at Politico.
The personal attack comments were probably already edited out by the time I read the GM and Toyota article.
What’s left is the guy’s opinion on foreign trade. Maybe he got a little excited with the Pearl Harbor thing. I didn’t really see anything worthy of a ban on what was left.
“But really, there are a lot of people out there trying to speak on behalf of the D3 who should just take themselves away from the keyboard.”
This is where I am truly thankful for the existence of superior people and their superior attitudes. Do you think we could find someone really smart to defend the Big 3 here on TTAC?
If I ever have a son I think I’m gonna’ name him…
Scartooth.
Having been subject to the wrath of RF, I can say that he does not ban people lightly.
Generally, people will be personally warned (and even invited to write up their opinions in 800 words for publication), and given a chance to tone down their vitriol.
It is only the over-the-top abusers that ultimately get kicked out.
January 25 2009….A DATE WHICH WILL LIVE IN INFAMY !. ;)
Personally, I was hoping the Spanish would have taken over a stake in Chrysler instead of the French, that way I could say REMEMBER THE MAINE !.
Perhaps there also needs to be a moratorium on “Car XXX is a POS”, “Car CEO/Exec is an idiot/brainless/useless” and the word “fail” as a noun.
“Perhaps there also needs to be a moratorium on “Car XXX is a POS”, “Car CEO/Exec is an idiot/brainless/useless” and the word “fail” as a noun.”
I second that thought. Some one rambling about Pearl Harbour and some border line racist remarks are pretty close to the same treatment the Detroit 2.8 [or less if Fiat gets involved]and their Executives get around here.
Two quick points.
1. I’m quite happy to discuss TTAC’s editorial stance and/or style with anyone– just not within an unrelated post. If someone wants to engage in a debate with me about TTAC’s editorial choices, they may do so on posts like these or send me an email at robert.farago@thetruthaboutcars.com. To which I will reply.
2, I am well aware of the hypocrisy of our posting policy. We can flame anyone within a post, but commentators are not allowed to flame the website, its authors or fellow commentators. I will not forward a long-winded defense of this double standard. Suffice it to say, that’s the way we roll.
Good! I used to visit Moparchat quite regularly until a few threads went down some idiotic paths and frankly I couldn’t stomach it anymore. The only websites I visit now are the ones that are well-moderated.
Scartooth POV will be more common in months to come.
When this bailout debacle concludes horribly (or the USA is flat broke) there will be people who have lost their jobs standing around saying “how did that happen”?
And not just in the “I’m entitled to it” auto industry, but across many segments of many industries.
You gave a troll his own entry in the blog. Happy birthday scartooth.
Scartooth had a legitimate viewpoint but he just didn’t get it. You can argue any point of view without racial slurs or or inuendo. As an example you can argue passionately against affirmative action but a constant refrain of addressing those opposed to your view as watermellon eaters is an analogy to his postings. I find that posters like scartooth who according to his postings actually works for GM in management also are confused by the fact that I can post that the people running GM or even working for GM are aholes because that is an opinion on GM a car company but that the employees cannot then call me or others participating in this forum aholes. There is a difference but they seem to lose sight of that.
And just let me say, I agree with everyone else’s opinion about group-think!
Just out of curiousity, is there anything to prevent Scartooth from simply taking on another psuedonym, and perhaps using another computer with a different I-P address to re-establish himself as a “contributor?” But then again, it sounds as if you can smell his “prose” a mile away…..and a leopard does have trouble changing his spots. Keep up the good work. Scarcely a day goes by that I don’t check out your site once or twice!
I hope he was banned justifiably, not for disagreeing with the contributors here…never heard of him, nor seen his posts, and I read most of them, so he couldn’t have been around long??
pretty funny…
good move rF, but like a couple of others, i don’t think this deserved its own thread…
anybody else think that “the poster who not shall be named” just did this for laughs / win a bet he made with his friends??
what would the bet be?
– over/under on how long to get banned?
– over/under on responses to his comments?
etc…
And just let me say, I agree with everyone else’s opinion about group-think!
LOL!
When I read ScarTooth’s first few posts, I actually had a moment where I was unsure whether I was reading the comments on TTAC or AutoBlog (which I try to avoid).
His banning was pretty much inevitable. Hear, hear!
I also agree with HeBeGB, in agreeing with the assessments on groupthink. Couldn’t be more right, in my opinion!
“2, I am well aware of the hypocrisy of our posting policy. We can flame anyone within a post, but commentators are not allowed to flame the website, its authors or fellow commentators. I will not forward a long-winded defense of this double standard. Suffice it to say, that’s the way we roll.”
Robert, if you were serious about this, I’ve lost much respect for TTAC and its management. Leading by example always works better than “Do as I say, not as I do.”
I think that Scartooth has a screw loose. One of his comments, still up on that article’s comments, has him responding to the warning Farago gave him. He sounds just like a paranoid schizophrenic that I talked to many years ago. Creepy.
whew, I just went back and skimmed that thread. Just the caps lock alone warranted the ban. I can’t get the shouting out of my head now.
I have a hard time believing he was serious. I think he was just a very determined troll. and my god, did he get fed.
@Robert Farago
“Suffice it to say, that’s the way we roll.”
You’re the boss, and the boss calls the shots. I don’t think anyone on TTAC has a problem with that.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Any questions?
You were wrong to ban scartooth. His style may have been unsophisticated but his positions were honorable. In fact, from the posts of his that I read they were often more accurate than those of the anti-Detroit/GM legionnaires that I have read here.
Detroit deserves a better defender.
The line has to be drawn somewhere… And enough is enough… Having worked with large communities before, I can say that the standards have to be tough, or the community will wither away in complete chaos. Not only that, but without standards, the content will be watered down. One thing that makes TTAC such an interesting place, is the high standard of the discussions. Like brand loyalty, that will be eroded if one can not keep the quality top notch. And, it keeps people and discussions in place, if a warning example is set now and then, to show where the roof goes.
I bet Robert has some great stories we will probably never hear regarding some of the posts TTAC has received. Might make for an amusing and interesting article. hint hint wink wink
JuniorMint
When I read ScarTooth’s first few posts, I actually had a moment where I was unsure whether I was reading the comments on TTAC or AutoBlog (which I try to avoid).
I personally thought it was descending into Youtube levels of idiocy.
Moderating is really a black art… and the best forums and sites draw a fine line on the level of behavior they allow of their subscribers. TTAC’s comments section is interesting in that the level of discourse is generally high.
While TTAC’s staff does seem to have its biases… the accusations fielded by the pro-Big 2.2, especially scartooth against Detroit critics were starting to descend into a level of silliness I’ve never seen on this site. (pro-Toyota? This place? Hah!) I genuinely liked the article… an analytical look at management styles in times of crisis instead of just another “Detroit doesn’t make competitive cars” bash.
It’s a fair bit more interesting than the “Deathwatch” articles, which seem to merely grab onto even the slightest bit of bad news for the Big 1.2.
sharky02 :
This is not a democracy. Also, I’m a little surprised at your use of the word “always.” Scartooth posted for two days. Are you sure you’re not in cahoots?
There are plenty of sites that share Scar***’s sentiments where he (she?) would be welcomed with open arms – you could see that though his opinions could be considered valid, his posts were rapidly dropping on the “civility scale”.
@Jimal:
‘Robert, if you were serious about this, I’ve lost much respect for TTAC and its management. Leading by example always works better than “Do as I say, not as I do.” ‘
What that means, is that you can call Bob Lutz a ‘crazy spigot,’ because that’s your opinion of him, but you may not call the author of an article or other commentators names. It’s kind of like the rule about famous people, how you can be critical of them because they are in the public eye, they put themselves out there, but to print “Jimal is a _______ that violates _________” in a newspaper would be libel, while saying it is slander. I’ve got nothing against ya, Jimal, just driving the point home.
As one who has found on this site some remarkably cogent arguments on both sides of issues, I think Robert’s restraint is well founded. The quantity of well thought out ideas I see on this site is a testament to the consistently good writing from all vantage points.
There are times that it takes the original post far afield, but I’m sure there are many of us who see such discourse as relevant to the times, even if not sometimes relevant to things automotive.
Yet it remains thoughtful only so long as it doesn’t descend into name calling or vitriolic criticism of the points of view of another. There are any number of websites filled with such tripe and it seems to squeeze out the humor and good nature that fills many of the posts on TTAC.
Thanks, Robert.
I went back to the tale of two losers article and looked for scartooth’s comments, and find that I really must play the contrarian here.
Unless they were deleted, the worst racially themed and offensive thing he said was “remember Pearl Harbor”, which is calling us to remember a historic event, it’s no different than saying “remember the holocust” or 911, or as a matter of fact, 4th of July, as it was a day we won over the British. To me, saying that is not racist.
Secondly, yeah, he did repeat himself often, but how often has TTAC and it’s BNB repeatedly said GM should file C11, or fire the management? In fact, Mr. RF stated in the comments of the article that he has repeatedly said this over the last 3 years. Sure, there are differences between this troll and RF/BNB, maybe the line has to be drawn somewhere, but I think he was well short of spamming. (again, unless his posts were deleted, I only read the article and his comments today)
Lastly, I think he has a right to point out what he believes are unfair competitive advantages and state his opinion that no other country can compete with the US if they had to use the same standards. As far as I can recall, he is not the only commentator to bash foreign companies and their practices and/or products. How often do we tell each other that Chinese cars are crap and that they will never make it in the US market?
Understand that I’m not defending this guy or GM, but merely saying that he did not deserve a ban.
Robert,
Thank you for upholding the standards of this site. I went a round or two with scartooth myself, then gave up because I saw he was not listening to anything anyone else said. The generally high level of comments here is one the things I like best about the site. I have had a few discussions going here, and with scartooth’s exception, they avoided personal attacks and stuck to debating the issues, which I greatly enjoyed.
I agree with the principles of TTACs policies, even though I have found myself on the wrong side of the moderators for what I thought were innocent comments. Lesson learned. Having been on many forums where moderation existed solely in theory, I am glad TTAC is committed to maintaining discussion integrity. Anarchy on the web is migraine-inducing, with every tough guy behind a keyboard throwing down the gauntlet for any differences in opinion (and preferring to name call rather than engage in intelligent debate).
Really this topic was superfluous (trolls like attention, good or bad. Do not feed the troll.), but I can see the value in emphasizing the TTAC policies for anyone who was sitting on the fence.
Scartooth’s racially offensive comments were deleted. As are all comments that violate our posting policy.
The problem for me with Scartooth was that he’s following the old Detroit habit of blaming others for Detroit’s problem…. and then he got personal about it. Ad Hominem attacks are always wearisome and a distraction. They have to be addressed because, if unchallenged, the charges made are allowed to appear to be accepted truth.
However, response then shifts the discussion away from the actual point. And off we go…. chasing the ancestory of ‘yo mama’.
Better to ban and keep the conversations civil and on point. Anyone who’s ever tried to moderate a large group of people recognizes that it’s all about herding cats, and that the moderator is often going to have to simply be arbitrary. It’s not a perfect world…..
SexCpotatoes:
I don’t follow your example. I read Robert’s #2 as saying that he and other editorial contributors are free to rip on anyone, including posters on this site, but that posters on this site aren’t afforded the same privilege in kind.
Did I miss something?
@ Jimal
Whoa! Dude! We NEVER rip on (i.e. flame) posters on the site in our blogs, reviews or editorials.
On those occasions when a newsmaker posts in the comments section (i.e. someone “ripped” on the site), we always respond to their comments using the same rules that apply to any other commentator.
Hm, he was only around for 2 days…I can’t recall even one of his posts…?
Here is scartooths last post that I seen, You be the judge.
scartooth :
January 22nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm
“Its nice to see an American genuinely concerned about Americans. I would like to see transparency by the foreign businesses. I would like to see THE TRUTH ABOUT CARS show the differences in laws and restraints between foreign and Domestic businesses. They have no regulations from the fishing industry to killing whales,lead in their products to injecting synthetics into their foods in order to make their product seem something other than what it is. They have devestated families across America from Poisoned pet food to lead tainted toys ,candies for our kids. They run slave shops with forced child labor and they go unregulated and are able to pollute their environment at will. Yet we hold our businesses to standards from pollution controlled smoke stacks to carbon emmisions. Yet our Government has not penalized these governments for their tactics. They devalue their currenies in order to undermine Americans,and yet they are not penalized. They have been gave a free ticket to do as they please with out restraints and all at the costs of the American business, How many lobbyists and how much money has lead to the selling off of the American industry. The same Industries that pay taxes to the same who let these entities to run free.”
It’s obvious his point is to the Detroit bashers and union haters out there who believe it’s all GM’s fault. He was passionate about his views and most likely became frustrated with the “Toyota- How Great Thou Art” crowd. The voice of dissension is what makes this site work. Banning that voice serves no purpose other that pacifying
the opposing side. And it will most likely keep other dissenters from posting.
dealmaker – I have to agree with RF here. The scartooth repost basically indicts all Asians with charges made against specific Asian countries as if there were no difference between Korea, Japan, China, Cambodia or Indonesia. That’s just racism.
By the way, the executives in China responsible for melamine in the milk were sentenced to death. Draconian, to be sure, but likely effective in promoting environmental awareness in corporations.
Dealmaker: Yeah, I’m with edgett — he can’t seem to differentiate between the Japanese (whaling) and the Chinese (slaves and the what not) and Koreans (Bibimbap).
Robert:
My post was clear, this was the last post I seen of his, hardly cherry picking. I seen no flames, I am taking your word for it. I can understand why someone could get angry with all the cheap shots and misinformation that is posted. As long as stereotyping some groups is acceptable, (you won’t deny that will you?) you are going to get some short fused answers simply because some people will take it personally. I wish I had a dollar for every “overpaid, lazy, drunk union autoworker” post I have seen.
Edgett:
I see no indictment of all Asians here. Lighten up friend, and get some thicker skin. It was obvious he was referring to China and Japan. It isn’t racism when pointing out inadequate and unsafe working conditions and comparing that to our own when the context is about costs of those regulations in our so called industrial trade policies. He’s simply calling for a level playing field. One that brings them up as opposed to bringing us down.
I hope they are taking actions against this, but the number of reports coming out about this suggests the problem is deliberate and widespread. For awhile there we were getting a different report every week it seemed.
Jonny:
Not everyone possesses the ability to express themselves coherently all the time. He obviously gets off-track, I agree.
I’m going to stop my defending him now. I didn’t see the posts that were racists or inflammatory, the point I’m making is what one may find offensive may not be meant to be taken that way. Unless the offenses were blatant, after only two days of posting it seems he should have been given probation instead of prison.
@ Robert Farago
Perhaps I’ve misread what you indicated was your posting policy. If my interpretation is incorrect, then you have my apologies. I was reacting to the complaint in an early post by dastanley about an exchange he had with one of the editorial staff. Within that context, you can see how I read your reply…
Well dealmaker his worst posts were DELETED I have one of his posts that was deleted from the lexus review still saved as I was quoting from it in my response which was also deleted.
scar tooth, “Well I dont like it at all. I think its a beast of burden and only goes to show you how the Japanese cannot get away from those big gas guzzlers. It also has a gawdy look that makes me feel a little oozy. I think its the underlying smell of SAKI and I believe this will leave just as much of a hangover to anyone who buys one.”
He had others but I don’t have them. I said it before and I’ll say it again you can argue any point of view but he constantly had to inject little racist rehtoric.
If someone is arguing against affirmative action as an example don’t be putting in comment about smelling fried chicken or refering to your opponents as watermellon eaters is that so difficult?
Jimal, I read the comment the same way.
I am well aware of the hypocrisy of our posting policy. We can flame anyone within a post, but commentators are not allowed to flame the website, its authors or fellow commentators. I will not forward a long-winded defense of this double standard. Suffice it to say, that’s the way we roll.
Must be the We. I assumed he was talking about Editors, but if you read the We as “all of us”, then it makes more sense.
Robert, can you clarify?
Sherman Lin :
January 26th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Because of his using the words “smell of SAKI” gives it a racial undertone,for sure, but being blantantly racist remark, i’m not so sure. In scartooths world a comment like that would be heard in any GM, Ford or Chrysler breakroom or hallway in the country. Comments like this would be made as jibes, to poke fun at, not in a blatantly racist demeanor.
When someone is constantly under attack, who sees post after post saying how his livelihood should end, how his job should be lost, how it’s all his fault and he deserves it by people who seem to be giddy about it, it comes as no surprise he would lash out in an unappropiate manner.
Again, i’m not defending him, but i don’t see where this comment rates as being an attack on a specific person or it being a stereotyped infraction by one who was trying to be funny. Stereotyped comments are always meant to offend, it’s a matter of opinion if this one should rate differently than others.
dealmaker:
Don’t forget that these sort of remarks have a cumulative effect. Out of context, one or two may seem reasonable. But endlessly repeated, and constantly intimated, the underlying philosophy is more than clear.
Robert
Agreed, i see what you mean. One vile attempt at humor is different. More than one becomes blatant racism, zero tolerance for that.
Cavendel :
My interpretation of that statement is that Robert and his editors can make whatever comments they wish about anyone in a post (which to me includes less than positive comments about the opinions of the commentators, the commentators themselves, their personal appearance, their mothers, etc.), but that we as commentators (or in this case is the more appropriate term “commentors”, or “posters”) aren’t afforded that same luxury. That is the clarification I am seeking.
I don’t recall reading any of Scartooth’s posts, but if the Saki comment qualifies as racist then some introspection is required. You can argue that anything you say about anyone could be misinterpreted as racist, and then we’ve descended into a moronic whitewashed existence.
DeanMTL
Don’t make this a debate about political correctness. There are boundaries to free speech, and scartooth’s comments had a pervasive, unmistakable, xenophobic and yes, racist under-current.
Besides, my first obligation is to the TTAC brand, not PC dictates or, for that matter, the first amendment of the U.S. constitution (no matter how much I love it).