George Carlin famously opined, “Everyone who drives slower than you do is an idiot; everyone who drives faster than you do is a maniac.” I took a fair amount of stick from the B&B the other day for admitting I’ve exceeded the speed limit in the past. The squeaky wheels here at TTAC seem to consider 123 mph not acceptable; which makes me wonder what some of those people would have said if they’d ridden up I-75 with me a few years ago when I decided to “max out” my 911.
Some of you feel that any speeding is unacceptable, but I’d suspect you are in the minority, even at TTAC. The average driver does speed. [ED: gasp!] So, B&B, the question becomes: where do you draw the line? At ten over? Fifteen? Double the limit? 300 kph? Sure, conditions vary, so let’s stipulate a set of familiar conditions: a Florida freeway, five lanes, wide, good weather, visibility to the horizon, clumps of traffic with long gaps between. What’s safe? What’s acceptable for the “average driver”? What are you willing to do in that situation?
I’ll open with my personal opinion: in a car I own, by myself or with consenting passengers, with the V1, Lidatek and various other devices in play, I’m willing to floor it until we reach the limit stamped on the sidewalls. You?
Tough one. My driving instructor once told me:
” Don’t speed. Ever. That’s what I’m supposed to teach you. But if you drive the speed limit, 60kph, on that road where traffic goes 75 kph, people will kill you. And if you drive the city speed limit, 50kph, in that small street downtown, I’ll jump out of the car”.
Very true words.
Depends on the circumstances, skill of the driver, quality of the car, and so on. I generally don’t exceed 80mph in my VW golf, but find myself going faster when in a more powerful car, and with little traffic on the road.
I’ve been known to cruise between 75-85 on I-96 and I-94 in Michigan. I slow down to 75 at night since I can’t see speed traps.
About 90 for the conditions you describe. Frankly, a someone going 30 in a 25 school zone annoys me way more than an alert driver on a divided, multilane freeway.
Nonetheless, I’ve adopted a personal speed limit of the lower of 15% over the limit or 75 mph regardless of conditions.
I do think the 123 mph you reported was excessive. Even if your passengers consented (?) the drivers and passengers in the vehicles around you did not. And even if you are a skilled driver, luck and circumstance play a larger role than skill in that setting (I think that was a main point of your earlier article).
When I was young and stupid I wound a Porsche 911 over 140 mph on a forgiving stretch of freeway. I don’t recall you mentioning if you were young or not. I recommend joining a local club through which you can get track time somewhere.
I’m willing to floor it until we reach the limit stamped on the sidewalls.
i’m glad you’re on the opposite side of the country as getting smashed into by some speeding idiot isn’t my idea of the best way of dying …
10 MPH over on the freeway (unless traffic is going faster). 5 MPH over everwhere else. It keeps you generally out of trouble with the law, and it is the expected norm where I live.
For me its all about weather/road/traffic conditions, but in the scenario you’re talking about, 130-140 km/h seems about right. Here in Ontario the new limit on our major highways is 149 km/h since anything above that will get your car impounded. In town I stay at 15-20 km/h over and in subdivisions or school zones I stay right at the limit.
I cannot lie, I’ve had my sportbike in 6th gear with the tach in the red before. Of course this was on a highway with little to no other traffic on it (not a regular thing for me to do). Yes it was not safe for both me and any other people on the road, but its just something people do (everyone knows that I’m not the only guy to do some thing over the limit on a sportbike). I have heard about an “underground” club that meets up once a month at some area of the metroplex with their high end cars and just tops them out at some off hour of the night… If you paid the extra $$$ for a fast car and you never go over 75mpg did you waist your money?
I’ve tried to get the 1.8T beetle to its physical limits but that darn car gets really squirly around 115mpg. I’m guessing its the bubble body.
Given the scenario as stated, it’s to the mat between the clumps of cars, then down to about 75/85 (which is about the “clump” speed on FL Interstates in the rural areas) to thread through the traffic. Then, back to the mat.
It’s not something I usually do, but I’d be lying if I said I haven’t done it before … in the ‘Bird …. at 153.
Call me crazy, but I love the concentration that those speeds demand. I feel much more alert since I’m totally involved in the driving experience at that point.
However, I normally am about 10 to 15 mph over the limit on Interstates, maybe 5 mph in town. The “above” is an exception …….
’87 Carrera Targa. Rev limiter in 4th. 160 MPH in 5th. Got passed by a guy (I later met) in a red Ruf. Early Sunday, bright & sunny, no traffic, 2 miles line of sight. No one harmed. The earth continues to rotate in spite of it all.
On your Florida freeway, as described, I’d probably not exceed 70, unless the traffic was doing more. I’ve cruised at 90 on empty Utah highways, and might have gone 100 in my Accord (I was in some floaty rental Buick). Back in the days when I had my ’77 Toyota Corolla, I generally did the double nickel, occasionally hitting 60 on 95 betw DC and Mass. I’ll do 75 regularly on those same roads in my Accord. A matter of the car’s stability. One of my car dreams would be to drive x the country in a Cayman doing 120-130. But I guess that’s a side issue.
So, Jack. Are you using aftermarket, or the factory tires (235/50R-18 – which are stamped at 130mph)?
We’re opposites. I had a pre-daughter speed, and now have a post-daughter mental speed setting.
Pre-daughter, I tended to consider the posted speed limit to be a minimum – much as depicted in the movie Speed.
Post-daughter, I wanted to stay around for the duration, and took my foot off the pedal.
So as not to be sanctimonious here, given the stick you’ve gotten.:
At 19 I blew past a police control in Spain, at well over a hundred mph.
At 28 I blew past a police control in Australia, at well over a hundred mph.
In both instances, I was somehow able to convince the astonished policemen that I shouldn’t be thrown in jail and shouldn’t lose my license. The fact that there was no other traffic helped.
I enjoy driving fast on narrow forest roads, particularly on snow and ice, preferably with all kinds of traction control or assisted braking disconnected. But I like doing that when the only thing I can hit is a moose or a tree.
I’ve had loaded guns pointed at me, and there’s no difference between that and driving down a road with a lot of clueless strangers aiming heavy and speeding vehicles in my general direction.
“Let’s be careful out there.”
I routinely drive 5 to 10 mph over the posted speed limit on interstates. If traffic is light or non-existant, I find it very easy to push my 07 Civic to 90 mph on smooth Tennessee freeways without breaking a sweat. It does depend on the vehicle I’m driving, however. I wouldn’t dare go that fast in my grandfathers Trailblazer.
I think that, in general i go about 10 over on multilane roads. however, i, just like a lot of people, have gone for the redline, 100 is easy to hit in 5th gear (its got a 6th gear) just cruising in my car(my dad who’s 55 agrees, and he rarely speeds, esp not triple digits), but around 130, i usually realize what I’m doing and lay off the gas. Honestly, i can’t knock anyone for speeding, unless they do it with a passenger who isn’t a willing participant, or does it at the risk of others besides themselves.
I go as fast as the road conditions, my car, and the state of my license will allow. That’s anywhere from 0-160mph in my experience (I haven’t really been on a road that would allow me to do more than 160mph, although my car tops out at 186)
I can’t stand when people act like going XXmph over the limit automatically makes you a potential murderer. Sure, you’re in more danger at 100mph than at 65mph, but I’m willing to bet you’d be even safer if we reduced the limits to 5mph, or banned cars altogether.
Obviously there’s a tradeoff between convenience and safety, and automatically assuming that the mostly-arbitrary speed limit is the perfect place to make that tradeoff is just dumb to me. So I’ll continue to totally ignore the speed limit (I break 100mph almost every time I’m on the highway) where appropriate.
In the US, where lane discipline is lacking and where drivers are not staying on the alert for high-speed drivers, you can’t treat an interstate as if it it was the autobahn. Even if the road is good and the drivers are OK, they’re just not looking out for someone driving at that pace, and you can’t expect them to.
On a good road in clear weather, safe speeds are determined by the flow of traffic. If the other traffic is moving along at 70-80 mph, for example, you should have a good reason to be going more than 20 mph faster or slower than the extreme ends of that range, and you had better keep a wide berth.
I have no problem with 120+ mph on an open, empty interstate, but as you approach other traffic, you should eliminate some of the speed variance and be conspicuous to other traffic. Keeping it pegged at 120 while driving through a pack going 40-50 mph slower is just begging for an accident.
Given good weather, good visibility and no other traffic – flog the thing, top it out. But just for a limited stretch.
With other traffic and/or passengers, I would keep it with 10mph of other traffic.
Slightly more than the posted limit unless traffic is moving faster or slower. Or the weather is limiting things. Or I am on i-696, where speed limits really don’t apply.
I think the fastest I’ve ever gone on public roads may be in the 120-130ish area and I was a non-consenting passenger. On my own 110ish I don’t recall when, I don’t bother doing that anymore.
I actually would like to have a go at the silver state classic. Hey Jack have you had a run that one yet?
The answer is…it depends on where I’m driving.
On the Pennsylvania Turnpike (speed limit 65 mph), I usually drive about 75-80 mph. Most people are driving this speed on the Turnpike.
Out west (Nevada-Arizona-New Mexico-Utah)) last summer, I usually drove about 80-85 mph on the interstates. Which, again, was how fast most people were driving.
On city and suburban roads, I make it a point to obey the speed limit.
Pch101 :
I don’t know about anybody else, but if I’m doing 100+ with even one other car on the road, I make sure there is at least one lane of ‘buffer zone’ between us, and/or there is an escape route if they choose to do something stupid. I don’t think anybody here is saying you should just blow by traffic and expect everybody else on the road to stay in their lane, one of the most important parts of driving safely is assuming everybody else is an idiot and reacting accordingly
if we’re talking the Alligator Alley section of 75, then 100-110. I’ve never been on that stretch of road in traffic that wasn’t doing 95.
Here in MI, then most of the highways 80-85 is about right when the weathers nice. There seems to be a law though that if you drive an F150 that you should be doing a buck and change in all weather conditions in MI.
I usually end up being the fastest one on the freeway, but not by very much. My goal is really to be the second-fastest car so somebody else pulls the ticket. I’m rarely disappointed with this strategy.
On the road described, that means I’d probably be going 80-85. But I slow down to match conditions too – nobody’s checking their mirrors every few seconds for somebody bearing down on them, and going faster than the pack by a huge margin is just asking for a nasty accident.
Once I get out of traffic on a big, open freeway…well, that’s a different story. As long as the conditions are good and the radar detector is working, I’ll break triple digits.
I’m much more into the 0-65 runs that one can do stoplight-to-stoplight than going 100+ on the interstate.
In your scenario, I wouldn’t go faster than 85.
No blanket rule.
Only what the weather, traffic, time, particular road, ons+offs, & that car’s wheel/tires & brake system will let me do to stop if I have to for that reaction speed, viz how quick I feel at that time.
So, normally I don’t speed. -Especially in, or between towns on 2/4 laners.
At off-ish hours, on uncongested 6-8 lane highways, with a standard MkIV VW, maybe 15-20 over -tops.
I only know of 2 stretches of road near me where you could really go fast after 7pm.
…for admitting I’ve exceeded the speed limit…
Going 45 in a 40 is “exceeding” the speed limit. Going 80 in a 70 is “exceeding”
Going 123 in a 70 … with passengers … with other cars within eyesight … more like criminally negligent.
And I say that loving horsepower, fast cars, cars that corner on rails, and all the adrenaline rushes that go along with it, and having done my fair share of really stupid things with cars in days long gone.
Sorry.. on this one I say, Sheriff Buford – throw away the key.
It depends entirely on conditions: weather, traffic, road, etc.
On restricted access multi-lane highways I think 70-90 MPH is fine. Provided it is dry, clear, and none of Carlin’s idiots are around.
Empty, wide open spaces such as are found out here in the west like this? Whatever physics allows.
But if even ONE other car is around? Then don’t be one of Carlin’s maniacs.
–chuck
If you cannot stop quickly enough to avoid entering the location of a accident up ahead then you are probably going too fast.
Florida is not Utah, Montana or Wyoming. The “clumps of traffic” are very likely to collide into each other, as the author experienced in an accident he barely managed to swerve through.
“But if even ONE other car is around? Then don’t be one of Carlin’s maniacs.”
Exactly
It’s all good…until your speeding causes someone else to die. Happened to a teenager in this city recently…while speeding he clipped a pickup on the highway (no big deal, just a little bumper kiss), but the pickup lost control, wiped out, and killed the driver. The teen was fine…except for the part about being in jail now for manslaughter.
There are too many variables to this problem for any one answer to be sufficient. Vehicle performance, driver ability, road design, weather, and traffic (cars you can see AND potential traffic you can’t see yet) and prevailing traffic speed are all first-order variables.
On empty two-lane Colorado mountain roads with speed limits of 35 or under, my fair-weather rule of thumb used to be 2X-10, or ‘twice the limit, minus 10 MPH.’ This didn’t mean I was Colin McRae, just that the county roads department used to slap up a lot of absurdly low speed limit signs that only rationally applied to RVs or Oscar Meyer Wienermobiles.
On a posted 75 MPH Wyoming highway with maybe five turns every hour, and with very light daytime summer traffic going 80-85, I’ll set my cruise for 90 and disengage it when I see another car on the road. This only happens every ten minutes or so in the middle of Wyoming. In a Gallardo or an Aston-Martin V8 Vantage I’d probably feel just as safe (physically, if not legally) at 110 or 120 under identical conditions, but I’d be careful to reduce my overtaking speed to no more than 10 or 15 mph faster than the cars I’m passing. Cruise control at those speeds probably isn’t a good idea.
On the PA Turnpike, I do the f*%ng speed limit. Safety has nothing to do with it: the bastards can time you between toll plazas and mail you a ticket afterward.
I’ve only topped 100 a handful of times, always in everyday vehicles on straight and empty Western interstates. Most of those times I wasn’t actually even speeding (Montana was crazy back then) but it never felt safe.
Stopping distances are extremely long when you’re tooling along at 100+ mph, and the consequences of losing control at that speed are severe.
In your original story you claim to of had 3 other people in the car, so you seem to believe you know the value of someones life and the fact that you are willing to take those peoples lives (not to mention all the other people around you) in your hands show incredibly immature and down right dangerous you are. Your rationalization is the same as the kid I knew in high school that thought he knew it all and ended up dead because he “knew how to drive” right into a tree.
And now you justify your actions because you have some fancy radar detector? Im sure you are also the same person that would fight a speeding ticket even when you know damn well that you were speeding.
For the record I go with the flow of traffic. If i feel the need to punch it i do so on an on/off ramp where im the only one and if i wreck i hit the Jersey Barrier and no one is hurt. Bu most of the times i get my kicks out on the track which makes street driving (even driving like an asshole) seem tame and boring.
Why would TTAC even post this kind of stuff? Are we going to have an editorial on how to Street Race next?
What is it with those “clumps of cars” going down the road anyways? Its like a herd of cows in a field. There can be like 5 miles of open highway but everyone wants to clump together on the highway and block off all lanes.
@Stein X:
The tires I have on my ’06 now are V-rated; I killed the OEM tires over the course of a few weekends at Nelson Ledges, where it’s not possible to exceed about 110 in a car with that low of a power-to-weight ratio.
Buying Phaeton tires is tricky because you have to respect the load rating as well. There are very few passenger-car tires rated for something that heavy.
A while ago I found myself with an extra set of eighteen-inch Hoosier R3S04s and I contemplated putting ’em on the Phaeton for its next track day. My fear was that the heat buildup might be just too much. Also, at Grattan the car tends to leave the ground a bit which has to be just plain hell on the casings.
I’m one of the people who gets to put you or the people you crash into together when you crash your car.
1) The road is not a racetrack.
2) You’re not a racecar driver, and even if you were, see point 1.
3) Your life and time are not more valuable than that of others also on the road.
In conclusion, don’t drive like a prick. Driving 120 mph on the freeway as that idiotic Phaeton-driving tale relates is doing just that.
IMO, it’s NEVER safe to settle in to a triple digit cruise. At that speed, I’m in full-on racer mode and am thinking four steps ahead and actively waiting for something bad to happen. I can’t maintain that level of attention for more that a couple minutes on a public road.
Truly ideal conditions might happen twice a year, with an empty limited access highway and no traffic visible in front of me for whatever distance is required to come to a complete stop from speed.
There, I might cruise at 90, follow a speed demon at 105 mph from a quarter mile back. Sprint to 120 mph for a few seconds. Again, only in the sort of conditions you never see in any sort of population center.
Long drive and in the zoned out fog that happens after a few hours on the road? 80 mph tops.
In town? Speed limit.
On freeways with traffic? Whatever everyone else is doing in the left lane.
In the snow? Whatever is safe.
OK, nerdy physics time! yay!
Any highschool physics student can tell you kinetic energy is KE=1/2m(v^2) sooo
your kinetic energy at 70 mph is 36% greater than at 60 mph even though your speed is only 17% more.
At 100 mph your energy is 56% more than at 80mph even though your speed rose only 25%.
Your 2400kg Phaeton traveling at 123mph or 55 meter per second has 3630kJ of energy or ~1.7 sticks of dynamite. I don’t care what fancy safety features the Phaeton has, its not built to withstand a couple sticks of dynamite ripping through its sheet metal. But I’m sure you still think that’s a safe speed to travel…
So yea, you might want to think about how all that energy is going to be dissipated….
180 MPH is about max before things start to get wierd…I drove 203 MPH and that is getting up toward stupid speed no matter what you are driving.
I guess it’s all relevant on the conditions, road surface, weather, traffic density, vehicle, passengers, known law enforcement “traps”, etc…
There are spots in the west and northwest where you could set the cruise control at well over 100mph and be okay (ticket wise and safety wise). And the only time I have ever felt comfortable doing that was through Wyoming with my father, and in his AMG E50 (and even in the E430 4matic). There are several spots between Boise and SLC that I often travel, but I don’t do much over 90mph, traffic is light but the wind kicks up alot and the road surface gets rough, especially in my Mazda3 wagon and Volvo 760 (which still has a smooth ride). I don’t go much over 80 when the wife and baby are in the car. Doesn’t matter how safe the car is or how well I can drive.
Winter? I stay within the limits that I feel comfortable driving, which is usually a little quicker than most Idaho drivers but much slower than tourists in rental SUVs!
The fastest I’ve ever gone on the street was 126mph (which hit the limiter) in my Audi on the I-5 going thru the Grapevine north of LA and getting passed like my feet were stapled to the floor.
Normally, I do 70-75 on the freeways around here in San Diego, and if traffic (and the CHP) is light, I’ll break off 90mph, mostly because you can’t go faster than 70-ish without “knife fighting” your way through the traffic which is stupid.
Around town, I stick to the speed limit because around here in SD, the city speed limits are fairly reasonable (except on Sorrento Valley Blvd!).
drive according to conditions and your attention – i don’t drive quick when i’m sleepy or heavy traffic
i have a simple philosophy – i like driving by myself
the probability of single car accidents for me is miniscule
however i can’t control the behaviour of those around me
so i like cars that have strong acceleration
i have no issue at all outrunning a clump of cars simply because i do not believe in this affliction where clumps of cars drive together
we are not friends on the road
cars together causes accidents so it’s in my best interest to not drive with ‘you’ people
if that means i have to accelerate at a rapid speed away from you, that is what i do
What is it with those “clumps of cars” going down the road anyways? Its like a herd of cows in a field. There can be like 5 miles of open highway but everyone wants to clump together on the highway and block off all lanes.
You got a couple of people driving the speed limit in the front of the pack, and a few dozen tailgating (and gnashing their teeth) behind them.
“I don’t care if you’re driving 50 for fuel economy. We need to be at work 15 minutes ago. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.”
I’ll break through that clump and it’s someone talking on the phone.
Safest speed? As fast as traffic allows given a decent amount of space in front of me.
Open road for hours on end (which happens almost never)? I’d say 90 but fuel economy is now a concern. What’s the point of being in a hurry if you’ve got to stop for gas more often?
All I’m going to say is that I’ve lost my license twice. My conduit is currently clean as a whistle, but my ’05 Boxster S has less than 9k on it, thanks to this job…
In Ohio, 72 in a 65 zone. In Indiana, 80 in a 70 zone.
@Toshi:
Well, I kind of am a racecar driver, in the sense that I own a racecar, race that car, and race other people’s cars as well in a variety of series and events, but still, your point is taken: the road is not a racetrack.
This is primarily true because there isn’t a single racetrack in the world where you can do 123mph for half an hour in more or less a straight line. Even at Road America you only have about 35 seconds or so to scratch your nose and complain to your crew before it’s time to turn again.
And while I’ll freely admit that I am not going to be the slowest guy on the road, I also make certain concessions to safety that not everybody else does. I don’t drink — period — so I am always sober. I try to be reasonably alert. I maintain my hardware; I’m one of those dingbats who actually checks tire pressure and brake pad depth before leaving for a long trip. I haven’t been at-fault in a traffic collision since 1990 (was watching some fine broad running down the road in shiny shorts and clipped a Lebanese pizza delivery guy who was pulling out into the road without quite enough gap).
But this post isn’t about me — it’s about you. I’ve already had my say on traffic speeds. What would you do?
in Germany 100 mph seemed about right.
in the interestate….anything over the speed limit (but less than 85mph) as long as you’re not the fastest guy on the road. speeding is not worth getting a ticket, especially as many states laser/radar you from overpasses or have an airplane flying overhead to radio in speeders.
Complicated questions sometimes ask for a simple answer first. We all think we are good drivers until we crash. The statistics say 80% of fatal accidents could be prevented by staying within the speed limit. Given how deadly driving is, why not just be on the safe side? If it’s thrills you’re seeking, then I would recommend drugs, fast skiing, recreational sex — all statistically safer and certainly less anti-social than speeding on public roads.
That’s the simple answer. The complicated answer is that driving at night on the Frankfurt-Darmstadt autobahn, the four-lane unrestricted führer’s autobahn, is when I like to give any car I am testing the beans. 120mph, 150mph, who cares.
(Luckily I don’t test Porsches — this is exactly the place where test drivers from Zuffenhausen crashed and died the other day.)
Another more complicated answer to JB’s question is that I have ten points on my driver’s licence. A speeding ticket can mean three more points. Fourteen points means I have to go back to driving school, and spend time with nutcases (it’s only the other guys who are nutcases). Eighteen points means bye-bye driver’s licence. So I have been cultivating a geriatric driving style, and will continue to do so, until my points get erased, in March 2010.
I’ll admit on the highway and main roads, I rarely go the speed limit. I usually limit myself to 10-15 over the limit, depending on the circumstances, but I’m still ‘breaking the law.’ Based on the circumstances, it’s not what I consider an unsafe speed.
But if you really want to drive 100+, find a place that is set up for that. As good a driver as everybody here is (not trying to be sarcastic), things can happen that you won’t have time to react to and people could get hurt. Including people who didn’t make the decision to drive at excessive speeds.
There was a story here (I think) not too long ago about some guy in a supercar who got himself killed going too fast and the common thought in the comments was, ‘at least nobody else was killed.’ Even the author of this post, in his original article admitted it was luck that got him through. What would we say if, instead of an interesting story, we were reading about how he and his passengers were hurt or, God forbid, killed?
The easy answer is that speed limits are exactly that: limits.
But, since we all know nobody actually adheres to the limits, it becomes a matter of common sense. Here’s my rules of thumb:
1. Conditions ultimately dictate maximum “safe” speed. Often times these are well below the posted limit – a function of weather, road condition, and vehicle ability (overweight, disabled, trailer in tow, etc).
2. Triple digit speeds expose everybody on the road to extreme risk. If you’re going to push a hundy… it had better damn well be out in the sticks with no other cars, pedestrians, or personal property around so that if your tire is shredded by an object you can’t see at that speed, the only one needing to be scraped off the pavement is you. Keep in mind, this is also (despite Pistonhead tendencies) highly illegal, AND endangers your loved ones traveling with you.
3. Driving significantly faster than the flow of traffic is even more unsafe than terminal speed itself. You may have a Porsche fully capable of cruising comfortably at a buck-seventy on the Autobahn where other drivers are expecting the speed delta; however nobody cruising I-95 in Florida is expecting that. You can have all the electronic nannies in the world, razor-sharp driving skills, and eighteen airbags, but all it takes is one nitwit to change lanes in front of you and you decrease the population by at least two, or as many as fifty – depending on how much collateral damage [pileup] you inflict. That is the definition of reckless endangerment.
One thing that has been repeatedly glossed over in the recent B&B discussions is the fact that AWARENESS is quite possibly the most powerful skill a driver can possess. Awareness also includes the ability to assess situations where OTHER drivers may NOT be as aware, and you must protect yourself accordingly.
As a German who travels a lot on unrestricted roads, I usually drive around 160-180 km/h (~100-110 mph). I think that’s quite a relaxed and safe speed, at least over here where people drive somewhat orderly.
But it’s also due to my car, which just isn’t made for high speeds.
When I’m driving a big car with lot’s of hp, I go up to 200 km/h (~125 mph).
Sure, I always test the limits and go up to 250 km/h (~155 mph) but I never do it for long as it takes a lot of energy to stay concentrated at those speeds.
It’s manageble with a fat luxury car like the Mercedes E-Class I have been driving recently, but with a more sporty set-up it’s extremely tireing.
I once drove an SLK 350 with sport suspension for a long stretch on the Autobahn (which isn’t even very sporty compared to other cars) and above 200 km/h, it took a lot of energy and concentration, while the E-Class is still easily drivable at 200 km/h with one hand on the steering wheel.
When you’re on the Autobahn, there’s nothing better than an E-Class or S-Class. They’re not built for the track or twisty mountain roads, but for relaxed traveling with high speeds.
«Your 2400kg Phaeton traveling at 123mph or 55 meter per second has 3630kJ of energy or ~1.7 sticks of dynamite.
[…]
So yea, you might want to think about how all that energy is going to be dissipated….»
I like your calculation. 2 sticks of dynamite to a 5,600 lbs Phaeton riding at its USA-electronically governed 135MPH, uh?
But not the premise behind your post. If you calculate everything by the uncontained energy associated to it, then never get on a ride at Disneyland nor get on an airplane nor a train. Nor, for that matter, on a pair of skates. And never put any sort of payload you like on top of a space launch system!
The question our friend the Phaetonista is raising is what are the limits and under what conditions do you take the risks associated to leveraging the energy produced by your ride, given the energy management systems associated to that ride?
Wait, did I just see the words “Phaeton” and “trackday” in the same sentence?
To answer the question with another question, context is everything, innit? In Oregon we have some nasty fines for folks who get caught over 100mph. No thanks.
Between the scarcity of roads on which 100mph+ speeds are even remotely safe and the likelihood of seeing a cop on one, my answer is 10 mph over the posted limit.
I must have missed the post with the tirade against you Jack, but I wouldn’t have been part of it. Anyone who has never, or is opposed to, opening up a car on an empty highway should stick to Toyota Camry’s and Consumer Reports.
Nothing wrong with a high speed blast when there is no other traffic on an open interstate – provided you have a line of sight at least a mile in front of you (don’t be stupid). When I had my ’05 Subaru Legacy GT, I took it out once and opened it up: 140mph @ 500 from redline in top gear. I only held that for a minute or so as it really is somewhat scary and demands full attention as was mentioned above.
In normal driving, and when there is other traffic around, I do +5 or +10 on the highway, and try to stick to posted speeds in residential and business neighborhoods. I also observe the basic rule – never drive faster than conditions allow, so when its wet or snowing I go slower than posted speeds.
In Jack’s situation, 123mph is definitely beyond my comfort zone. I would be quite comfortable with doing 100mph. Of course, provided I had the necessary radar/laser electronics on hand.
How fast?
What can you afford?
Thirty over in several states will leave you A) in jail for at least a few hours, B) with your car in impound, C) a mandatory court date, D) an extremely large fine, depending how big an idiot the judge thinks you are (plus court costs), E) attorney’s fees, F) possible future driving restrictions, and G) a sizable increase in your insurance rate.
So go ‘head. Road’s clear. Visibility is fine. Weather’s beautiful. Nail the gas. See what she’ll do.
Just remember, Smokey’s out there waiting. Watching. (And sometimes, hovering. Isn’t a detector made that can defeat a stopwatch.) When you blast by at a buck-plus, you just made Johnny L.’s quota all by your lonesome. He will not be amused, either.
Without reading all of the previous posts – who has the time – I’m betting this will echo many other responses. It depends. It depends on the driver’s skill. I’ve seen some people whip by me at a high rate of speed and been much less concerned about their driving than the guy weaving in and out of traffic at or just above the posted speed limit. It depends on the road conditions. While in college, I was caught in an absolute deluge while driving down I80 near Sacramento. There were several inches of water on the road as it simply could not shed the water as fast as it was coming down. A Toyota 4X4 passed me doing about 60 mph (65 zone). He literally through a plume of water up to the roof of my car. He was driving ridiculously fast. It depends on the vehicle. In a good solid handling car with the proper rubber on a straight stretch of road, 123 mph isn’t fast at all. I’ve gone 115 mph and 120 mph and felt absolutely safe. I’ve also known that I was pushing it in classic cars at 65 mph and should probably slow down. Though this is disturbing for most people, there is no right answer.
In your given scenario in Florida which is foreign to me I would say: In the empty parts of the freeway travel as fast as you feel comfortable accepting that you might risk a hefty fine or losing your license. BUT when you approach those ‘clumps of cars’ no more than 10 or 15mph in excess of whatever they are doing.
I usually go about 145km/h in my A6 on the highway. Posted is 110km/h. V1 has saved my butt on numerous occasions and I won’t speed without it. I did blow by a cop once on the highway before I got my V1. Posted was 110km/h, I was going 135km/h. He had his radar going and could have cared less about me. So I guess, according that cop, 25 over on the highway was not ticket worthy.
Fastest I have ever gone was 185km/h on the highway. I did so because some ass in a truck was tailgating me on said single lane highway. He started when I was going 140. I knew if a deer jumped out in front of me I’d be dead from his truck running over my A6 when I hit the brake. So I speed up to 150. He speed up too…and resumed his position 5 feet from my ass. So I opened up the biturbo and dusted him. Put him as far behind me as I could. I think in that case excessive speeding was the safer thing to do.
I’m getting tired of all the macho chest-thumping, so I’m going to ring-in w/my .02$.
I’m w/ Toshi. The road is not a private sphere intended for entertaiment or testosterone release; it is a public infrastructure (meaning old and young, experienced and inexperienced are on that same road – which they all pay for too – and they have a reasonable expectation that someone else will not do injury to life or property because they think they are special.)
Such immature, selfish, reckless and anti-social driving behaviour by the types that think they can, just because they once, twice, a dozen times did it without consequence, or because they bought a ride that can achieve (truly) terminal velocities, will not end until each car is equipped with a GPS chip regulating vehicle speed to that which is safe for the vehicle, driver, conditions, time of day (ambient light and traffic density), special training and vehicle certification fee, etc.
Such driving in an environment where it is so amazingly out of the ordnary is criminal and only waiting for probability to make you and whatever your ram at these velocities another statistic.
By way of disclosure: My first ticket was 71/55mph on I-696 2-wks after getting my license (wanting to see how fast my dad’s ’77 Gran Torino Elite would go. Answer 92 mph); having competed in both SCCA and Formula; now living in Europe (I fully enjoy the 120kph (85mph) Vmax on the Swiss Autobahn, and regularly do (the allowed) 160kph (100mph) on cruise-control for hours (in a Brabus-tuned Smart) and if the car went faster, I probably would. Whether it is age, wisdom, or knowledge, built-up over nearly 20 years involvement with barrier-tests, occupant-restraints, and bio-mechanics, I’ve learned to do the limit (or go with the slower part of the flow – conditions permiting).
While I am a firm believer that many US speed limits are artificially low, are often posted for revenue rather than safety and are worthy of modification, I still remember Csaba Csere’s description of how, in a big Audi, he nearly killed his wife (driving too fast for conditions) cresting a hill and coming upon an accident (due to black ice which he was now on); he wrote, “not even electronics can create traction where none exists” … (original text at link – ain’t (sic) the ‘net wonderful?).
Finally, if limits are just for “guidance” or fair game for flouting, does the same rationale apply to stop signs, traffic signals, blood alcohol content, driving at night with one’s lights off, or on the proper side of the street?
As dad (a traffic accident investigator) used to say, “imagine how it would be if everybody (who couldn’t control their impulses) did that?”
Thanks to everybody for the foregoing good and interesting discussion and comments.
http://books.google.com/books?id=7SVr1lbOVbYC&pg=RA3-PA232&lpg=RA3-PA232&dq=csaba+csere+audi+ice+crash+wife&source=bl&ots=RqSa_V2t7t&sig=DE_32X6oMl6qsyAqW0ulHJBfgv4&hl=en&ei=BcalSZiFEomJ_gaU4IifBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
I think going under 110mph is OK in Rhode Islands I95 left lane, but speeding in neighborhoods is not a smart thing to do.
Given the situation mention I might speed a little. It highly depends on what car i am driving,how I feel that day, and if i have no passengers.
Martin Schwoerer :
February 25th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
The statistics say 80% of fatal accidents could be prevented by staying within the speed limit.
[citation needed]
Domestic Hearse:
I know the police can be tough in some states, but I hear that in Florida the police will let triple digit speeding pass, as long as you have an expensive foreign car with northern plates.
They have long forgotten the Civil War and just want to make amends.
In fact, since Florida doesn’t require front license plates the police there specifically watch out for cars that have front plates so they don’t accidentally pull over any friendly out-of-towners.
If they do pull you over all you have to do is make a lighthearted joke like “I bet you haven’t seen a northerner come through here this fast since General Sherman”, and then, after sharing a good laugh, they will let you off with a warning.
Speed is all about judgement – the type of road, the traffic, the weather conditions and the condition and experience of the driver will all determine the speed which is “safe”. The definition of “safe” being the risk that you and your fellow drivers are comfortable taking for the sake of getting to your destination. Unfortunately the defintion of what is an acceptable risk varies considerably.
I’d say I average 15-20 over on highways (both 55 and 65 limited), but only so long as I’m not the only one (and I never am). I can’t honestly say I break 3-digits with any regularity and the fastest I’ve ever been is 130 (in a car) and 140 (back of a bike, against my will). I was passenger in a 911 convertible automatic (booooo) and the driver informed me we hit “140, maybe 160”, but I think he was completely full of shit. I kind of view highways as straight a-b transportation, so I’d rather set a good average than tire myself out overconcentrating on higher speeds.
All my fun driving occurs on backroads with no posted limits (55 default); you can really push the limit of a set of tires at 65 on these roads (and wreck your suspension while your at it, trust me). I think that the attraction for me is that feeling of a car being fully committed coming out of a turn, with the weight on the outside rear and understeer/oversteer just on the horizon. It isn’t really high speed that gives it to you though, it’s more about knowing the road and it’s sightlines and being aware of what the car can actually do (yes, yes, the choir is listening). There’s nothing I hate more than being in a fast car with someone not aware of those limits (TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE BRAKE AND TURN THE CAR!!!).
Jack…much as I am not offended at all by your speeding I really don’t get the attraction of sustained highway blasts. To avoid having this become my outlet I’ve put real effort into not living in states that suck…like Florida.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the concept of frequency. What are the odds that I’m going to get into an accident if I hit the speeds Jack mentioned every time I was on a clear highway? Pretty damn good. And I’m guaranteed to lose my licence within a matter of months.
But what are the odds if I do it once in a while, when conditions permit, for only a minute or two? I’d argue that the odds of my getting through life without getting anyone hurt or killed are pretty good. Case in point: for about a year I would take my bike to its top end almost every day on the way home from school. It was one exit, maybe 2.5 miles. Opened it up on the onramp, did my 0-135 sprint, and then coast back down to the speed limit. Total time above the speed limit was maybe 45-60 seconds. How much time does the average soccer mom spend above the speed limit during her commute?
In all the times I did it, I never once had a close call. I never even had to get on the brakes until I was already on the offramp, having coasted back down to 65 MPH.
I give Jack credit for fessing up to doing something stupid. Obviously, he wasn’t bragging about his near miss, and we’ve all done stupid/irresponsible things. I’ve accumulated a whole list of them over the years, yet 95%+ of the time I consider myself to be a safe, courteous driver. Judging from some of the replies here, if I listed them, there would be people calling to put me in jail for life. And yet, I’ve only received 2 tickets in my life, the last one being about 7 years ago.
I value safety and respect for other road users, but seriously, what’s the point of a sporty ride if you NEVER use it? I’d go nuts – hell, my 100 hp Jetta saw triple digits once in a while, when appropriate. Don’t even get me started on how often the inside rear wheel lost contact with the ground…
I’ve got a better way to ask this question:
How fast would you go if you didn’t have a speedometer?
Answering this question forces you to think about the road condition, the surrounding environment, the car, the tires, the weather….etc.
-ted
Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention … amazing coincidence really … and a good illustration of death by speed differential…
Last summer, I visited the Porsche Leipzig plant; this is where all (ca.) 1,273 examples of the Carrera GT beauty were bolted together. I drove a diesel Fortwo (Vmax = 140kph) from Templehof in Berlin to Leipzig.
Passing in that ForTwo, took planning and checking the rear mirror before commiting to the LH lane, because if the other car was moving 130kph, completing the maneuver took an eternity (due to glacial acceleration at that speed rather than the low Vmax.)
At the plant, I wondered if ever in my life I would ever see or hear the sound of the Carrera GT at WOT (at the plant, the only reminder, that I saw, was a gigantic poster above the door into the (beautiful) cafeteria saying ~”Birthplace of the Carrera GT”).
For the drive back to Friedrichshafen, I swapped the Smart for a diesel Audi A7, making the 5hr trip on cruise set at Vmax (240kph). While homeward-bound, I thought of the 100kph differential between the Vmaxes of these two cars.
Somewhere in the late late afternoon, around Ulm, hauling ass at 240kph, I was all alone, in the RH-lane, on long sweeping LH turn, marvelling at my solitude (10y living in Eu, and this is unusual), so I put my window down for fresh air (the a/c was broken – a different story for a different day) … suddenly, from nowhere, (even I, an inveterate frequent RR-mirror checker, didn’t see it until it was past my open window), full-bore screaming was a (wait for it…) silver Carrera GT.
I tell you, that Porsche passed me so fast, I had the feeling one has in the train station, while waiting for departure, when the train on the next track moves out, and the visual effect makes you feel you are moving in the opposite direction.
Then I thought about the 100kph differential between my A7 and the C-GT (Vmax = 340kph) and then thought about how many would have died had I, on that long sweeper, gone out to pass a diesel Smart (even at 240), thinking I was among the fastest on the road, or (myself removed from the equation) a diesel Smart might have passed an ancient Opel doing 120…
Just to put it in perspective, Jack’s speed differential was approximately the same 100kph (v. another car doing the legal ~65mph max limit.)
btw, Just as with all the stories of (now-retired Ford Vehicle Development V.P.) Richard Parry Jones (Mr. Former Rally Driver) and his management underlings trying to out-do each other to keep up with RPJ during management drives (he always driving aggressively, and many of the rest driving beyond their skill) during management drives on public roads, I wonder that the legal offices of these OEM’s still allow such testing on on public roads … just as the late test-driver recently found-out, it is only a matter speed and distance travelled before probablility gets ya (sic).
Any a__hole doing twice the speed limit on a public road should be locked up and banned from driving for a few years. We have race tracks where the sensible grown-ups go to play.
Too fast…too fast for conditions.
I’ve rallied on dirt roads posted 20 at 65. Too fast is missing the narrow bridge and ending up in a pond.
40/30 when a car pulls out unexpectedly from a side street is too fast.
On a perfectly open road, with no one else around, too fast is when the car hits the speed limiter.
Normally if you are surprising (or waking up) your fellow drivers, you are going too fast.
The squeaky wheels here at TTAC seem to consider 123 mph not acceptable; which makes me wonder what some of those people would have said if they’d ridden up I-75 with me a few years ago when I decided to “max out” my 911.
123 mph on a busy interstate in the US, where people don’t understand lane discipline, don’t expect overtaking traffic at that speed differential, and with your family in the car? I can’t properly describe what I think of that on this blog without risking getting banned. The same is true for “maxing out” your 911 on a public road.
If you want to drive like an idiot, do it on a race track, where you only jeopardize your own safety — not the safety of those around you (including your loved ones).
Too fast…too fast for conditions.
I’ve rallied on dirt roads posted 20 at 65. Too fast is missing the narrow bridge and ending up in a pond. (properly closed roads-not just playing around)
40/30 when a car pulls out unexpectedly from a side street is too fast.
On a perfectly open road, with no one else around, too fast is when the car hits the speed limiter. :)
Normally if you are surprising (or waking up) your fellow drivers, you are going too fast. The trick is to keep your speed diff with other cars under 15 mph or so, and change lanes slowly-never cut off or startle anyone. You should be totally stealth, get through the clump, and away, without ever making anyone else notice you, or have to think.
“a Florida freeway, five lanes, wide, good weather, visibility to the horizon, clumps of traffic with long gaps between. What’s safe? What’s acceptable for the “average driver”? What are you willing to do in that situation?”
What’s safe: a speed that keeps you centered in the null zone between the clumps of traffic.
What’s acceptable for the “average” driver: 80-90, because the “average driver” is a dipshit who thinks they have better reflexes than Superman.
What am I willing to do in that situation: 60 is plenty for any road with lines and enough room between the travel lane and the ditch to park your car in.
I exorcised my need for speed at 16 when I did a 60 roll in the Citation. It made it up to maybe 80 before the half-mile of straight road ran out.
When I was 20, I used to drive at 85-90mph whenever breaks in highway traffic would allow. I had a fancy radar detector, but I still got busted with laser and instant-on too many times. It’s just not worth the money to get there a bit faster.
Since then, I generally drive around 68 in 55 zones, and 74 in 65 zones. If I go by a speed trap, I let off the gas, or turn off the cruise and let the car slow a bit, but I never hit the brakes, and haven’t been busted since.
My A6 2.7T is by far the smoothest car I’ve driven at high speeds, and I’m perfectly comfortable driving at 90mph if I’m moving with traffic. Drive 90mph by yourself though and you will get busted, just a matter of time.
@ Edward Niedermeyer :
Wait, did I just see the words “Phaeton” and “trackday” in the same sentence?
My current Phaeton has a couple hundred laps of various Midwestern road courses under its belt. The photo which heads this story was taken at VIR’s “Oak Tree” turn. Bonus points if you can identify the car which is going to be overtaken down the back straight ahead.
Running VIR’s Full Course, the Phaeton can hit an indicated 131 on the back straight before it’s time to stomp the left pedal. When it rains, it’s more or less the fastest car on-track; in the dry, not so much.
Last year I had to straight-line the top of the Climbing Esses to avoid the famous “please don’t hit the wall” type of accident. The big Dub ran straight and true through the grass at about 110mph before I re-entered at the top of the hill without losing a spot. I could see the corner worker laughing.
I’ve driven pretty much every non-SUV vehicle I’ve owned in the past seven or eight years on-track a few times, just for my own amusement, but most of the time I either drive my Boxster S or mah NEON, yo.
The nice thing about tracking a Phaeton is that you can take three (or even four) people around and show them what it’s like to be on-track without the noise and rough ride of a “trackday special”.
Back on topic… I’m a bit skeptical about some of the speed claims. In many parts of this country, doing the 75mph max many of you are claiming will get you hit in the ass by a minivan-driving single mom chewing gum and holding her phone while she fixes her eyeliner.
I’ll open with my personal opinion: in a car I own, by myself or with consenting passengers, with the V1, Lidatek and various other devices in play, I’m willing to floor it until we reach the limit stamped on the sidewalls. You?
me? the fastest hip-toss into kimura you’ve ever seen. and your money won’t be able to do a damn thing about it
I only go over the speed limit if I’m late or if I want to get out of traffic. Never more than 80 in a 65. 90% of the time I just go 65 because it isn’t worth burning the extra fuel and lengthening my braking distance.
I have over 2000 miles at 100+ driving through the wastelands of Nevada over the last 20-odd years, but always in places with ‘vanishing point’ style emptiness.
I’ve done a few trackdays, but only have the dough for LeMons competition.
My last ticket was 6 years ago. ‘Don’t be the fastest guy’ is a good rule of thumb, though several times now I’ve been with 3-5 other cars going 100+ down I-5 to LA/SF.
I usually go 75-85 on limited access freeways, and within 5mph of the limit in town. Or less on truly urban streets.
Speed limits on the highway are pretty arbitrary, and haven’t been set in a realistic scientific way since the double nickel days.
But I suppose the advances in car technology have been offset by the rise in motoring distractions, so perhaps the limits are all right as they are.
Why stop at the tire’s speed rating? That only denotes sustained speed capability, you should be able to blast right through that limit for short periods. Drag limited is where it’s at…
Given the specifics, I’d say 10-15 over the limit with concessions for traffic flow.
But if there’s no traffic (I-15 or I-40 on a clear day), whatever your car can do.
How fast is too fast for the public highway?
Answer: More than 88 mph.
The explanation follows.
Something of a reference point. Should you hit an immovable object or another equally large vehicle at 130 mph, if your car had 8 feet of structure in front of the driver, and it crushed at a completely even rate to the point right in front of the driver you would be at the edge of survivable G forces from that deceleration. This assuming you also are wearing seat belts to distribute that deceleration.
Few cars have 8 feet of structure so most cars will become lethal at some lower speed of collision. Not to mention that designing a vehicle to allow survivable crashes at 130 mph may leave the structure too unyielding to be safe at lower speeds which can still be fatal since driver deceleration will reach lethal levels when the structure doesn’t crush adequately. So is the answer that 40 mph is as fast as one should travel since cars can be designed to crash at that speed and slower while reliably providing survivable deceleration rates?
Typically one resorts to avoiding crashes in order to travel at speeds higher than 40 mph. So then the question becomes how fast can you drive and avoid crashing at those higher speeds?
Races are run at tracks at very high speeds. One huge difference however is run off areas. Modern tracks have huge run off areas. On most highways should you leave the roadway you won’t get far before impacting a parked vehicle, storefront, house, light pole, tree or some other large object. In addition you may have the vehicle roll over and tumble and still likely hit a large object. This will happen with little distance to substantially slow the vehicle. When you consider the width of highways and the forward speed, the usefulness of maneuvering to avoid accidents isn’t a primary factor. There often is no useful place to maneuver. This is why anti-lock brakes haven’t been as big a benefit as it was thought they would be. Rather than sliding along a road one can steer and often steers off the road to avoid another vehicle only to hit something worse or to roll over.
You then are left with braking to avoid hitting something or to hit slow enough for the accident not to be fatal. To know when to brake you need to see a reason to brake. At least until radar or similar systems that brake automatically become common the distance you see at any given time along with reaction time to brake become the limiting factors in what speed is safe. In Jack Baruth’s recent editorial, the fact he perceived an accident to avoid so close he couldn’t come to a stop indicates he was driving too fast for how far he could see or at least for how far he was looking actively. In that set of conditions 123 mph was unsafe. He doesn’t disagree and says he was lucky.
How fast is safe? First we need to figure in reaction time. Here is one of many articles on reaction time.
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html
Quite a few show for drivers to perceive, react, and move to control brakes takes around 1.5 seconds. This article indicates about the same. You often hear of the two second rule for following other vehicles, and some are pushing the three second rule. So why do you need more than 1.5 seconds. Well, good drivers periodically scan dash mounted instruments, or look in the rear view mirror. Those tasks take a .25 to .75 of a second to accomplish. Adding that to the 1.5 seconds is necessary then. It may be a little low, but I will assume a total 2 second reaction time for this discussion. Naturally it might be far greater if you are talking on a phone, eating while driving or doing any number of things you shouldn’t do if you intend to drive safely.
Other than coming over hills or some sharp curves it isn’t so much how far you can see as how far are you looking. Though eventually it comes down to how far can you see enough to react with heavy braking. On straight roads in daytime you can easily see other vehicles a quarter mile away. You will see the brake lights easily enough. But you likely don’t see enough at that distance to decide upon noticing some brake lights “oh heck, I better get on the brakes hard.” You might get on the brakes lightly, and watch carefully as you get closer to see if you need to do an all out stop.
Another factor is reason to stop besides vehicles ahead. Like children running into the road or objects laying in the road. With 20/20 vision under excellent lighting and contrast one would see something one inch at 300 feet or two inches at 600 feet. But with the changing scenery from being in motion, and less than excellent conditions that number goes up by a factor of 3. So at 600 feet you would barely see something 6 inches in diameter. And once it is perceived it takes time to decide what it is and what if anything to do about it. Objects large enough you need to avoid them can be barely perceivable much past 600 feet.
I find few people scan the road at more than 500-600 feet ahead actively. I find for myself in more crowded visual fields like heavier traffic or residential neighborhoods with many objects very close to the road it is more like 350 feet. So I have two modes to decide what a safe speed is. One is 600 feet of useful vision like interstates, large highways or rural open roadways. The other is 350 feet I use in neighborhoods, traffic or inner city streets. It so happens most low beam headlights illuminate around 300 feet and most high beams around 500 feet. Though illumination is still less good than daytime, and one can add driving lights and such to help some highway situations.
Still how fast is safe? If not concentrating intently on my driving I assume 2 second reaction time, and the ability to brake at .5 G. Most any modern car and tires will do .75 G braking, but this provides a margin of safety as well as leaving a bit of traction for going right or left for avoidance in situations where that is possible. I have two modes as described above for assuming vision to 600 feet and 350 feet. Skipping all the boring math the answers are:
350 feet conditions 54 mph.
600 feet conditions 75 mph.
I deduct 5 mph at night which isn’t quite enough at the higher speed and is just about right at the lower speed.
On the other hand, when driving intently, and using a higher performance car with better braking, traction and handling, I use the same 2 second reaction time, and assume .75 G braking. High performance cars can often get up around 1 G and this still gives a bit of margin in traction left over for going right or left. The speeds for this second scenario give the following speeds as being safe:
350 feet vision conditions 62 mph.
600 feet vision conditions 88 mph.
Obviously there are other factors to consider. Things like rain, snow, and ice, driving near a school when it is in session etc. etc. But this puts some reasonable limits on what are safe speeds. Driving faster than these speeds is not a death defying super reckless activity. But higher speeds will eventually put people in a situation that cannot be safely traversed without fatal accidents that otherwise could have been avoided. It also does nothing for people running stop signs or traffic lights, deers jumping out of the woods at the last second or any number of things. Unlike those other accident causing conditions the driver has control over his speed. So I say why not choose your speed carefully?
“Don’t drive faster than your Guardian Angel can fly”.
Maybe driver training would teach people to “drive/ride to the conditions”.
Otherwise, like I do, SAVE IT FOR THE TRACK OR FOREST please.
As Stirling Moss once said, excessive speed is 35 mph in a 30 mph corner. Since the author of this piece has already confessed to driving into a pileup at 123-70 mph I’d say I’m not much inclined to trust his ability to judge a safe speed.
Incidentally, for how long are your tires rated at their rated speed? Does it just apply to correctly inflated tires when new, or average tires in average condition?
I never speed in a residential area, that’s just stupid.
However on most roads I try to keep at or below 5 over the limit, usually close to the limit.
zerofoo
How fast would you go if you didn’t have a speedometer?
On back roads at night I go ahead and turn off the instrument lights. It improves night vision and forces you to meter your speed based on conditions, all in one go.
Highways, of course, it’s handy to know whether you’re speeding or not. And that’s generally my view: I might go for top speed once or twice on a completely open interstate, but the real fun is on back roads or lesser highways at somewhat more sane speeds.
No more than 10 over the average speed on that street. If there is no traffic around, then max of 15 over the limit.
I don’t mine pushing an additional 40mph through most sections of the Parks highway in Alaska. I can use the extra 2.5 to 3 hours of free time for other things.
Generally speaking, driving 75 to 80mph on controlled access highways feels comfortable when drivers yield to faster traffic.
In town will vary depending on number, proximity of vehicles and types of traffic patterns. It’s never OK to speed through red lights, school yards, neighborhoods or to kick girls in the stomach.
I gotta agree with Jack on this one, though my limit would be the brakes rather than the tires. I have always replaced the stock tires with hi-po’s, that doesn’t mean that I would trust a Camry with Pilot Sports to haul me down from a buck-thirty safely.
Something else I’ve seen in this thread that I’d have to strongly agree with is that it depends heavily on the car. A late ’80s 911 SC with the whale tail is steady as a rock at 150, whereas a Maxima is all over the road at 125. Not only is the Maxima inherently more dangerous because of the aerodynamics and suspension, but it also requires more concentration than is available just to keep on the road (i.e. you can’t scan the horizon for multi-car pile ups).
@ Detroit-Iron
A late ’80s 911 SC with the whale tail is steady as a rock at 150.
Not so fast. I’ve ridden in 80s 911 that would “pogo” in the front at the strangest speeds depending on conditions. Unless you know your car inside out from the track and you personally maintain it, AND know every scrap of road; don’t do it.
Keep it at the track.
I do somewhere between the limit and 4 over under good conditions, usually in the right lane. Under bad conditions, I slow down or, if it seems advisable, stay home.
Boring? Yep. But it gets me where I want to go.
I’m more than 400k miles now, I did 200k in a 63-1/2 falcon!. I’ve seen enough to be cautious. Deer that spin around and leap into your car, trucks that blow tires right in front or beside you. A wheel heading my way in the night. Cars rolling. A guy asleep with his cruse set at 75 in a 55mph zone, that one got us! Double shift blues!
What I’ve learned to do is really pay attention to the other people on the road. I don’t know how many accidents I’ve avoided that way. You learn tells like a card shark. You can’t pay that kind of attention if you are blowing by other cars. You set your speed accordingly. Must work because I’ve only caused one accident: $250 damage. 19 years old and learned about wet roads that time.
So most of the time I’m no more than 5mph faster or in the slow lane. Now say if I was in a 84-1/2 242 turbo I’d rebuilt and find myself on a very flat highway going from TX to SD with everything right and no one around I’ll blow the carbon out at 95mph for a good stretch. My Dad used to loan me his Saab 900 to do the same.
That looks like an ’80s 911 that’s about to be overtaken.
I’m ok with speeding into triple digits under the right conditions. However, such conditions rarely exist in North America where the majority of the driving public simply sucks. The lack of driver education and lack of thought/awareness makes ‘safe’ speeding next to impossible here. As a number of European highways have shown, relatively safe speeding is possible when drivers are properly trained and aware.
Sometimes, doing the speed limit can create chaos as this college film shows. Its 5 minutes, worth a view.
Even here on the german Autobahn, the most nerve wracking thing is hauling along in the LH lane, and having to keep an eye on all the little toilet cars that have an annoying tendency (much more than years ago) to pull out with out signaling…
Btw, if one drives a sustained 150kph here, one quickly realizes one is passing most of the cars, and if one does 240kph, one passes almost everything else that is not exotic.
Depends on what one is driving as well. There has been much outrage leveled against those snobs in fast cars driving fast. How dare they!
But what about large trucks/SUVs? My opinion, at the speed limit they are more dangerous than any speeding 911 (with the exception of a 911 doing 180km/h of course). As I leave my parking garage every day, I drive by a parked Escalade. Makes me feel nervous looking at the front Cadillac logo floating 3 inches above my head as I’m sitting in my car waiting for the garage door to open. I would rather be t-boned by a speeding 911 than a speed abiding mega-ute. Especially considering how, in my city, people who drive those things have little to no spatial awareness or drivers instinct as they are driving an “illusion of invincibility” tank.
And in a speeding emergency breaking situation, the 911 is more likely to stop in time before hitting me compared to an Escalade.
Unfortunately, traffic conditions on some freeways (S. California gets the prize) means if you drive the limit, you will be run off the road. In those cases I try to blend with the flow.
However, go faster than the prevailing average and sooner or later you’ll cause an accident, be an accident, or get hauled over.
I’ll admit, I’ve driven low triples (105-115) down Interstate 8 coming down the mountain towards San Diego. With a Trans Am behind me, an older Corvette and Fox-body Mustang in front of me, and the first part of the zinger was with a Border Patrol SUV. So in a neatly staggered 5-car pack rolling down 2-lane blacktop for over 10 miles, Corvette, Border Patrol SUV, Me, Mustang, Trans Am.
And I was driving a 1987 Civic Hatchback. Only reason I COULD go that fast was gravity-assist on the double-digit grade. But that was safer than any other speed I could go, right then, because of the surrounding conditions and the fact I was more-or-less boxed in AND being faux-escorted by Border Patrol.
At the same time? Conditions you described? Mat between, thread through the clumps at 0-5mph over their speed, mat again. Hurry-up-and-wait at it’s finest.
“Some of you feel that any speeding is unacceptable”
you should change that to, “some of you feel that any speed is unacceptable”. Anyways, 85mph freeway, in the daytime.
I used to work with an ex-policeman and I asked him how fast can I go over the speed limit without receiving a ticket. And he stated 9 miles over the speed limit on a good day.
If he or she had not met their quota then all bets were off.
i say in a country where tickets are handed out like candy, then no more than 10% of the limit. which in many cases would be the buffer before the flash shoots off.
however i consider when on a long haul drive, 100 kph should be a minimum, because any less than that and you might as well start walking.
in residential areas, no more than 50kph and that should depend how capable your brakes are and everything else.
and hiting the limit on the sidewall should not include another person, although if the road is clear and visibility is abundant, i would personallly do it. but i would have to be alone.
but i’m sort of a hypocrite, i did drive a cayman S at a sustained 255kph on an empty Spanish highway on a sunday morning. And have hit the limit with my personal cars, but usually late at night when traffic is scarce. and once i was blown past by a ferrari 575 maranello while i was closing 180kph.
and when on a track with a sweet ride, 200+ on the straight is normal, and on one occasion i last i saw the needle i was passing 295kph.
speed kills, unless you know how to manage it.
Generally, in traffic, whatever the posted limit is, I generally stay within 10-20 km/h (around 10 mph) of everyone else, either above or below, depending on my mood.
On a clear road, it depends on the conditions. I generally stay at 100-120 km/h with family on board, when alone, I will sometimes flirt with 160 km/h, and on a rea-a-ally long stretch, 200-230 km/h.
I don’t actually consider 123 mph (about 210-ish?) excessive… but if there’s traffic around going the speed limit, I wouldn’t go that fast.
I basically feel if you’re going more than 30 mph faster or slower than everyone else, you’re introducing an unwanted element of risk to everyone else out there.
“…123 mph not acceptable…”
Jack, “horses for courses” and speed for conditions.
123 is fine.
155 is fine.
227.6 is fine.
Given the conditions.
Don’t be a self-pitying ass!
it all depends…
interstate / freeway driving:
if you don’t want a ticket:
in the midwest – 9 mph over is fast enough…
on the 401 in ontario – 135 is fast enough, though often over the top of the gta, traffic moves at 145, so that’s ok too…
really – in a modern, solid car, I’d say ~ 85-90 mph is fast enough…
@pooch: Yup, Carrera 3.2. Beautiful car, too.
Amen OP!
As long as you’re risking your own life and no other, let ‘er rip.
This editorial piece is a red herring and proof that Mr. Baruth still doesn’t understand why people reacted the way they did to is first article.
1. The simplest answer to your question is there is a time and a place for everything
2. It is obvious from the end result of Mr. Baruth’s incident in I-95 in Florida that it was neither the time nor the place for the speed you were traveling.
It seems to me that the rest of this article is an attempt to somehow further justify the first article and react to the backlash it caused.
Well, the Volvo is rocking winter tires, so I rarely go above 70mph with it. As it stands, I don’t think I’ve ever taken over 85, as it is literally a brick. Combine that with shitty Northern Ohio roads and I’m not willing to go any faster.
I did once however take my ’71 Cutlass above 100mph on a deserted highway. Never again.
George Carlin was onto something there. If you find yourself passing 100% of the cars you meet, you probably are a maniac. If everybody passes you, you definitely are an idiot.
My rule of thumb under ideal conditions is to drive in the 80th percentile on open highways, which is usually slightly above the speed limit. In urban areas I follow the speed limit strictly, and I strongly recommend the same to anyone driving on my street while my children are outside playing.
In my younger years I once took my Yamaha XJ1100 on a top-speed run on a deserted highway, but chickened out at 200 km/h when it occurred to me that the front tire was eleven years old and full of cracks in the sidewall. To this day I am very grateful for surviving that experience, and I have no sympathy for people who don’t!
I think it depends on where you live (as well as road conditions, of course). I grew up on Long Island where the highways and parkways are packed with a 55MPH limit. You have to do at least 70-75 to keep up and not get killed, though. Police let you go with a warning sometimes.
I moved to Metro Detroit for 5 years; 70MPH limits and not a lot of enforcement. 90MPH on I-696 or M-14 wasn’t out of the question. Drivers there were great too, always moving over so I could pass.
Currently residing in Central Texas and I need to stay within 10 of the limit. No warnings here, a ticket is guaranteed, always. I had my car up to 95 while passing someone last week but typically stay 9 over the limit, max.
It’s pretty crowded here in western WA where I live, so for the most part I’m more likely to be speeding on back roads when the weather’s damp and chilly and everyone’s inside. Most of the time my speed is determined by traffic and other conditions around me.
I drove the 65 300L hardtop to California once; just south of Eugene three guys in new BMW’s passed me doing about 90. I let them get half a mile or so ahead, then moved up to that speed. We hauled ass all the way through the mountains until they got off at Grants Pass.
Coming back from Nevada another time in my 67 383 Barracuda I encountered a long stretch of silky smooth newly paved road – I think between Bend and LaPine. I closed the windows and went for it – indicated 110 for about ten miles. My wife didn’t wake up until I slowed down – started seeing mailboxes. Then for the next few minutes 70 seemed almost like walking.
I like the driving conditions in Nevada. If you’re close to any town, pay attention to the speed limit. If you’re in the country on a two-lane road, go as fast as you want. On the interstate, 80 or so like interstates anywhere, except on I-15 from Las Vegas toward California, where traffic always seems to go 90-95.
Once on I-80 near Battle Mountain we passed a guy on a chopper who was doing 70 leaning back against his rollbar with his feet on the handlebars.
To me it’s simple: if you want to race, go to the racetrack. Doing it in the highway is just putting everybody else’s life at risk.
Jack, not intending to be offensive here, but if you hit something at 123 MPH, and somebody dies as a consequence, you should go to jail. Period. People close to me has died in car accidents because somebody thought it would be fun to drive fast. Nuff said.
I had my M3 pegged at 142 on an open stretch of highway in Arizona. The car is designed to go that speed and it was great to experience it. I’ve driven on the Autobahn, and I don’t buy the ‘speed kills’ stuff. Germany’s ‘unrestricted’ sections of Autobahn have a lower fatality rate per capita than our heavily policed interstates. It is simply not true that speed kills.
I’d rather be on the road with high performance cars doing what they are designed to do, with attentive and focused drivers enjoying them, than on a five lane LA freeway going 60 with distracted, disconnected, bored drivers, clogging lanes and daydreaming.
Didya know that you can hit triple digits in third gear on a BMW K1100? Aint even any effort. It is also quite possible to sustain those speeds in 6th gear for several miles while traveling across southeastern Oregon. No danger to anyone but myself and the occasional coyote. New tires, life insurance paid up. Life is too short to avoid all risk.
Not something that I do regularly, but I wouldnt suggest that I wont do it again; although I have given up the 2 wheeled stuff. I wonder what the top end is on my F150 SuperCrew …….
Turns out that the cheeseburger and Dr. Pepper diet was a bigger problem according to my cardiologist’s pronouncement as I came too from the unscheduled angioplasty.
I’ll admit it. I speed when conditions permit. Like most of the posters here, I’ll go 10% over on a regular basis. Sometimes more, but not for long – cops here in Nova Scotia are numerous and good at hiding. I’ve pushed my Celica GTS hard a few times just to see what it’s like, but it’s not a race car. Every 100 yards there’s some fresh road kill too, which induces caution if you’re driving a small, low car like I am – I’m surprised no one has brought up the issue of animals on the road. The risk/reward ratio just isn’t good enough. Anyway, I strongly believe that it’s speed differentials that kill, not speed itself. There is no magic number, but you can’t be out on either end of the velocity bell curve for long without getting in serious trouble. Many years ago I had the displeasure of having to drive at night through Quebec in a blizzard. After 10 cars and 4 semis blew by me at 140kph+ while I was doing 90, I sighed and pushed the gas pedal down hard to avoid being crushed. In that situation, I was the dangerous element.
Driving a Phaeton is very much like walking a very enthusiastic dog. I drive one every day. All it really wants to do is go very fast and play loud music through its eye-watering stereo. Mine is a 2005 V8 model. I took the same 6 CDs out of the trunk mounted changer in my MB S500, and put them in the Phaeton’s glove box mounted one when I bought the car. I heard things on them I never heard before. New highs, new lows and bass that will literally beat on your chest. Louder than you can listen, with no distortion whatsoever.
Because of its weight, it does not corner like sorts car, but it sure does go and stop like one. Once you grasp exactly what that means, the Phaeton is extremely drivable in an urban Interstate take-no-prisoners scenario.
The beauty of this situation is that the Phaeton LOVES to speed. And is quite possibly just the right car to do it in, on the highway. Or, for that matter, anything that loosely resembles a straight line.
Consider: 1) The Phaeton V8 can effortlessly do 130 with its USA spec speed limiter active or about 170 without it; 2) To the police, the Phaeton looks just like a Buick Lucerne. 3) If something were to go awry, the Phaeton weighs as much as a Chevrolet Suburban, is stiffer than a Mack Truck and has state of the art safety equipment that most auto manufacturers have never even heard of.
The stealth factor really works for it. The 6 speed transmission (in sport mode) is very adept at choosing the right gear to step right into any opening in traffic.
After all, the weasel that would try to run a squeeze play on you if you were driving a BMW, or a Mercedes SL and close the opening you’re angling for, never expects (what he thinks is) grandpa’s Buick to suddenly dart in front of him. I do it every day. They never see me coming. Cops ignore me, the car is nearly silent inside and the view from my seat is nicer that any of the Mercedes Benz’s I’ve owned. The
Never had mine over 125…Yet.