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Make a right. Apparently. And can someone please remind me when Chrysler, GM and Ford took a stand on outsourcing?
32 Comments on “Bailout Watch 412: Two Wrongs...”
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That’s the problem. Just because the banks got bailed out, now everyone needs to be bailed out. The banks shouldn’t have been bailed out, the Autos shouldn’t be bailed out, and some corn farmer in Iowa shouldn’t be bailed out. Why should anyone get government money in a so-called free market society?
Is that a trick question?
It’s really tough to pull away from the teat, government or corporate, and not everyone can suckle at a teat. Some have to provide the milk.
This Lansing politician went directly from corporate to government largess and has no concept of anything but socialism in some form. The idea that it might come to an end is a personal nightmare and causing him to lash out at the bogeymen, Wall Street, China, UFO’s, etc.
This can never be a black and white issue, Socialism vs. Capitalism. Every country in the world has elements of both in their own chosen balance.
So to say that Government Loans are socialist is like saying that federal banking regulations are anti capitalist. Both statements are partly right and partly wrong.
What the government has to do is, weigh both sides and try to do what is best for the country as a whole. And in a democratic system the outcome will be judged in the next election.
“Some have to provide the milk.”
George, please, get with the hope and change express! It’s all teats, all the time, now! I don’t know how it works either, but it’s all the rage and it’s oodles of fun. Why did they call economics the “dismal science” when it’s so simple and so pleasant?
Huh, I wonder why car guys tend to skew mid to mid-right politically… maybe it’s just confirmation bias. I know maybe one or two other liberal pistonheads — the rest are moderately conservative [Edit: or libertarian, which is probably more on the conservative side than not].
In any case, this guy was venting incoherently. I share your confusion over the whole outsourcing rant — first of all, outsourcing is just the whipping boy of corporations and politicians trying to get easy support. It really doesn’t have that big an impact on jobs locally from all the information I’ve seen, at least from any meaningful (and not nominal) metric. Second of all (and this is an honest question) what actually gets outsourced in the car biz? Isn’t it the opposite case? Aren’t most Japanese and some German cars assembled here?
Well with that guy around, it sure will be a fly over area of that State for me from now on! And if not flying, I gotta get out the road map for alternate routes!
So on that basis, I guess you could say he did accomplish “something” by being an ass on live TV. As in, visitors/tourists go away, stay away from Lansing.
To put it another way, if he owned a restaurant I could ask that guy for a coffee and he’d give me a strip of liver! And unquestionably, he’d think he was right!
That “mayor” idiot is a shining microcosm of the issues regarding the US auto industry. I was getting pissed just watching him rant like the lunatic he is. Kudos to the host of the show for keeping his cool and biting his tongue.
The mayor just had to bring up his daddy, didn’t he? Retired auto worker…blah, blah, blah. Why don’t all of those UAW dweebs come on down to my area of Georgia and work for my company? We have benefits, a 401-K, dental and vision. Oh yeah. Our average production worker makes about ten to 14 dollars an hour.
All of the UAW members should be ashamed of themselves. They along with that idiot mayor are greedy bastards. Their organization is responsible for the demise they are going through. They deserve everything that is going on. Oh yeah, they make shitty products too. That’s the main issue. Another interview with this guy.
http://www.lansingcitypulse.com/lansing/article-2356-virg-bernero-on-fox-news.html
Wow. This mayor is a total douche. Clearly part of the problem and not the solution.
He knows full-well that the “working men” and women in the drunken idiot club called the UAW are treated like untouchable royalty in comparison to the real working people in this country. The sour economy didn’t cause GM, Ford and Chrysler’s mess, it’s just magnified it. This problem has existed for over thirty years. It never was sustainable and now it’s finally starting to crumble.
esg,
I am not sure what you are getting at with part of your post. Do you mean to imply that your production workers are living large off of the 20 to 28 thousand dollars a year they are making? Are you implying that workers who want more than that are “greedy bastards”? I am truly pleased that you offer a 401k and health benefits for your workers, but I don’t think that workers are evil for wanting to earn more than 10 to 14 bucks an hour.
While there are added labor expenses for the UAW made vehicles, most of that comes from legacy costs. Even if these “greedy bastards” worked for free, GM and Chrysler would still be zombies.
I’d hate to think that the UAW caused the housing bubble, the sub-prime mortgage mess, the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme, crappy designs, feckless management, and all the rest, for these are some of the factors that ” are responsible for the demise they are going through.”
ruckover- The UAW and unions in general were good for workers when they first began. It began the process of protecting workers with benefits, fairness and security. But, the unions began paralyzing businesses eventually. The management groups of the auto industry in the US continued to bow down to the union “gods” each and every time there were discussions and the good ole threat of “strike”. I am only referring to the auto industry, no other business.
No, I would only want a worker to want more. That is what allows management to bring the best and brightest up in the ranks of production. I would never want an employee to be satisfied with what they make. Our employees absolutely do not live large. They are paid a decent wage for the work they do. The auto makers in the US have been overpaying for decades. In addition, what other industry pays workers the majority of their pay while doing nothing? If anything, I would want my bailout tax dollars for the auto industry to go to any other auto company EXCEPT the domestic ones. I would gladly pay a few dollars for new energy saving technology. My opinion is anyone that doesn’t understand the current demise has their head in the sand. That’s it.
GM and Chrysler have been given the chance to succeed. Current management and current heads of the UAW have failed like no other . They must go. Wagoner, Gettelfinger…greedy bastards that can’t change the mothership. Ford? Who knows. I do like Mulally.
“And can someone please remind me when Chrysler, GM and Ford took a stand on outsourcing?”
GM took a stand about three years ago:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/08/gm-demanding-suppliers-must-outsource-from-low-cost-nations/
Obviously, the auto industry isn’t the only one guilty of forcing suppliers towards LCCs, but I can’t think of any other that manages a greater level of hypocrisy in the process.
Sorry – this is a sore subject for anyone who works in the auto parts biz.
Farago, I love your site and a lot of the things on it but I’d love to see you go head to head with good ol’ Virg Bernero. I am not talking by using invisible words via message board. I’d love to see you two physically argue your points about the auto industry and what you think should happen.
RF, The answer to my question is, “They shouldn’t” So I guess it was a trick question.
maniceightball, the transplants do build many cars here, and buy parts from domestic suppliers. The domestics however keep demanding their parts to be so cheep, that it became impossible for the suppliers to build them here.
My father is in manufacturing here in Michigan. A few years ago he quoted a job for GM. A Mexican company’s winning bid was about 3/4 the cost of the material my father would have paid. How can a domestic supplier make parts for less than it costs them to buy the raw material? GM always is happy to point out their high North American content on their window stickers. What this doesn’t take into account is that all the Tier 1 and Tier 2 companies outsource their work to other vendors. These can be from anywhere around the world. If you think the Detroit 3 are keeping all these suppliers in business, and would cause a huge collapse of the supplier side, I urge you to take a look at all the vacant industrial real estate here in the rust belt. (Sorry for the rant)
the guy is a complete moron
he was given a few simple questions he couldn’t answer…
why is there a wage disparity between non union and UAW workers ($27 vs $74)?
why are they losing $2,000 per car?
these are fundamental issues
all we got to see were the veins popping up on his forehead
This is what happens when you allow retarded children to play with voting booths.
I need to confess.In my other life I,m really
the Mayor of Lansing.
And do you wonder why Michigan lead he country into this recession?
@bluecon Did Michigan lead the country into recession?Or was Michigan the first to feel the recession?
Also, someone needs to explain to this guy that all the non-UAW workers at Toyota, Mercedes Hyundai, Porsche Honda and Nissan are not “third world peasants.” Many of these factories are deliberately far South… far away from the influence of the UAW.
Actually, they are probably in better shape because they will continue to have jobs.
Blue:
Have you ever been to the rural South.
It attracts car companies because it is a third world region.
Let’s see:
Alabama ranks 47th in terms of poverty, Mississippi ranks 50th, South Carolina is 42nd and Tennessee is 41st.
In median household income Mississippi is 50th, Alabama 46th, Tennessee 42nd and South Carolina 41st.
Not exactly economic success stories. Michigan at least makes it to middle of the pack in both lists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_the_United_States_of_America_by_income
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate
aving visited the northern part of our good country a number of times I don’t really think you guys have anything that appeals to me more than what we have right here in TN. A good number of your retirees seem to feel the same way… You income might be higher but then so are your expenses.
Low income America is still a long ways away from “third-world”. A bit of hyperbole can be a dangerous thing.
“Low income America is still a long ways away from “third-world”. A bit of hyperbole can be a dangerous thing.”
Sure, but the point remains the inland southern states where the transplants go have a lower standard of living than the industrial midwest by just about every measure, whether it is income or poverty rates or life expectancy.
Now, maybe you think that manufacturing jobs shouldn’t be paid at Union wages. Fine. But in doing that, you’re asking people in Michigan to lower their incomes to Mississippi and Alabama levels, so don’t expect them to be thrilled at the prospect.
The southern states only suffer because of the northern agression and continued reparations the northern states still impose for that war of northern agression and the refusal to accept confederate money as legal tender.
(just kidding!)
Ship him to Mississippi. Give me the mayor’s job in Lansing. Or any job in Michigan really – it’s impossible for us non-union, non-socialist Democrat young people. Michigan doesn’t even bother to plow the roads in winter anymore.
Rick Wagoner is on a C-SPAN feed as I type this. I need to take a walk outside.
“This Lansing politician went directly from corporate to government largess and has no concept of anything but socialism in some form.”
Isn’t called living off “corporate largess” called “having a job”?
If you’re not getting a paycheck from either a private corporation or the government, where else do you get it from? Are you saying anyone who isn’t self-employed or a farmer “socialist”?
MBella :
February 20th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
That’s the problem. Just because the banks got bailed out, now everyone needs to be bailed out. The banks shouldn’t have been bailed out, the Autos shouldn’t be bailed out, and some corn farmer in Iowa shouldn’t be bailed out. Why should anyone get government money in a so-called free market society?
You’ve got it! Two wrongs don’t make a right. Of course, when I made the same point to PDL, The Autoextremist, he cursed me out and labeled me a moron. Apparently he’s the only one allowed to behave that way. That’s why I love the democracy here at TTAC – all of us get our say.
Now, maybe you think that manufacturing jobs shouldn’t be paid at Union wages. Fine. But in doing that, you’re asking people in Michigan to lower their incomes to Mississippi and Alabama levels, so don’t expect them to be thrilled at the prospect.
@BDB:
I don’t care whether they like it or not. It’s reality. Too many people in this state (MI) whine about it rather than doing something. Don’t like your job? Get a new one. Don’t have the skills? Go to school and get them. Things are going to change in this industry and it won’t get stopped by yelling. The mayor’s rant is just emblematic of the problem with the pro-bailout arguments. They’re rooted in emotion. Fear. Anger. Righteous indignation. The whole gamut.
I didn’t see any solutions from the mayor beyond stripping people who work on wall street of their wealth, apparently to provide free health care for his 84 year old father.
Most of us have to squirrel away money for retirement every month, and we have either high cost insurance premiums awaiting us in retirement or crappy medicaid/medicare plans. Now with the bailouts taxes will climb and there will be less to save.
But at least someone else’s ass will be taken care of at my expense.
take a drive through Detroit sometime, do it during the day so you survive, and see how glorious that city is. Check out home prices in Lansing, see how depressed His Honor’s city real estate prices are. And notice how a 100K house gets assessed for almost 4 grand in property taxes.
Lansing needs a new mayor.
And can someone please remind me when Chrysler, GM and Ford took a stand on outsourcing?
Excellent question.Maybe mayor Virg can ask them why they build Fords in Mexico, Dodge in Canada and GM in Brasil.