I hopped in my Boxster and headed to the Lexus dealer yesterday. We’d agreed on a price for their ’08 2k mile IS-F. Only a single hurdle remained: Mrs. Farago. Sam thinks I’m nuts to swap a Porsche anything for a Lexus anything. There was only one way to convince my live-in lead-footed badge snob that the IS-F is the right kinda wrong: a test drive. Sam couldn’t get out of the house. Hakuna mutata. I’ll just swing by the dealer, pick-up the car, drive it back home, let her drive it, drive it back, pay my deposit and tidy-up the details. I called the salesman to give him a quick heads-up. [NB: the same salesman who was pressuring me to get the deal done by President’s Day for HIS convenience.] Nope. No can do. He was slammed. Huh? Just throw me the keys. After all, they’d lent me the über-LS. Sorry. Tomorrow or Wednesday. [Insert silence while I waited for his offer to bring the car by the house.] OK. How about . . . never? Over and out. I know this will strike a chord with many of you. I’ve heard plenty of stories where car dealers pissed on pistonheads, operating from the mistaken belief that THEY’RE doing YOU a favor selling you a car. And that’s another reason automakers and their dealers should be “allowed” to go out of business. If there’s no downside for someone selling cars, there’s no upside for the people who buy them. It’s as simple as that.
My Honda, Toyota and Lexus dealers are the same way. They look at you as if your a 3 headed alien to need a test drive or want to take the car home for night to see how it goes. If I could get a quarter for everytime someone tells me that they wished they took the car on a longer test drive becuase the seats grows hard after two hours of driving or that the constant exhaust drone grew tiresome I would be rich by now. I sometimes wonder if these car dealers get it.
I had my friendly Toyota dealer play games with me last summer on a low mileage Boxster he had in stock. After several days of discussion we agreed on a price, trade and a close date a week in the future … then he threw in ‘if the car is still here’. Needless to say, the car was still there, but I was not. 4 months later he was still making occasional calls to try to sell me the car.
I have many automotive interest, and Boxsters are only one of them. I bought something else. Threatening your customer is seldom a good idea.
My guess,the dealers are not hungry enough.Walk into a Chrysler dealer and ask for A 3 hour tour in anything they got.The sales guys will be throwing keys at you.
You should have bought that Challenger SRT8 for $25K that your friend had available…
Oregon Sage :
Threatening your customer is seldom a good idea.
I agree with you completely. I’ve been on the receiving end of this kind of thing, too.
In the podcast I mention that my local Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealership went out of business. When the Pontiac G8 first went on sale – when was that, a year ago? – they told me I could only test drive one with a $2000 deposit.
Actually, come to think of it, many of my “crazy dealership” stories come from that dealer.
I don’t mean this vindictively, but I have to wonder if out-of-work sales people at dealers like that realize they were wrong.
Robert,
Good luck with the wife. While looking at an RX350 I got her to look at the IS-F in the showroom and she liked it till she walked around the car to look at the sticker. “That much for a small car!” I tried to point out the back seat, perfect for a baby seat. She was not impressed.
Good to hear both of you guys again on the podcast.
How very un-Lexus of the dealer. Maybe with the dealership closing near Justin, your local Lexus dealer hired some of their salespeople?
Any success with finding an IS-F on Ebay?
Farago-
How about buying a GM vehicle?
these dealers don’t understand the value of the puppy dog?
TTAC guy trading a Porsche for a Toyota? Never would have thunk it. TIC.
It was meant to be. Trading a Porsche for a Toyota earns you a permanent place in hell.
Edited to mention that I would trade any of my Porsches for an IMSA GTP Toyota, a retired Toyota F1 car, or something like that. But a hopped-up sedan that looks like a catfish? Negative, Ghost Rider.
TTAC podcasts rule!
Dito, Jack Baruth…
Jack I’m not sure you fit the mold for this site
beller :
Jack I’m not sure you fit the mold for this site
Sure he does. Secretly he wants a 1800 lb RWD diesel manual wagon.
@golf4me & Jack Baruth
It’s not just trading a Porsche for a Toyota…
…it’s trading a Porsche for a Toyota with an OEM bad body kit and bonus “sweet” drop.
Both they Toyota and Honda dealers around here have sure got balls. My mom wanted a new “car” since my dad passed, and we stopped at, in order: BMW for a 3(My badge of choice, while you’re under warranty the service is top notch), Pontiac (realllllly good prices on a G6), and Mercedes (Friend works in the service department.) We were very well treated, and were given bottom line deals within 20 mins of entering the dealership.
Enter Honda and Toyota. When you walk in and state your Model, year, mileage, and price preferences, and the salesman shows you something COMPLETELY different and then acts like he’s breaking the rules to get you a better deal on options already installed, I have to question why they continue to top the customer service charts.
beller :
Jack I’m not sure you fit the mold for this site
No, he can stay…the people bitching about the modded X-Bow as a first date care should go back to PerezHilton.com.
I am shocked! Shocked! I tell you. Poor treatment from non-D2.8 dealers? Oh, my. Good thing the product is so vastly superior to what Detroit has to offer. I feel lucky to be possibly the only guy in the world that has gotten much better treatment from the GM dealer than the BMW or Mazda dealer. And I know nobody will believe me, but have had fewer quality issues with my domestics than with my non-domestics….. Maybe beller is right, try a GM dealership.
Sounds like a sign to me. Besides, it has fake tailpipes.
Sure he does. Secretly he wants a 1800 lb RWD diesel manual wagon.
Better than an El Camino, I suppose.
So have you tried a C63 and an M3 or is it just the cost? Seems like the ISF is about $8k less than the M3 and about $15k less than the C63 (all 08 models, used within 500 miles of MD). The cost is a valid point but if that’s the main reason for picking up the ISF I’d suggest just waiting another 6 months for it to come down to your price range.
I could see going from Porsche to BMW or anything to Porsche but I’d have to agree with your wife, why Lexus?
Not brand snobbery mind you but saying performance/enthusiast oriented to soft leather couch oriented (yes the ISF is not a normal Lexus but it’s not an M3 either).
Maybe I just haven’t had my Boxster long enough, but I can’t imagine trading it for a Lexus… or anything else, for that matter.
Mr Berkowitz,
Please bear in mind that in the UK, Audi A4 2.0TDI’s are a stock company car. Chances are, you saw loads of sales reps on the road.
P.S. I don’t know what FIAT 500 that magazine was reviewing, but those fuel consumption figures don’t sound right to me.
The FIAT 500 1.4 sport auto gets an mpg combo of 47.1mpUKg. And that’s the sport model.
Robert, does your decision to trade the Boxster have anything to do with the potential of an Intermediate Shaft failure?
I could see going from Porsche to BMW or anything to Porsche but I’d have to agree with your wife, why Lexus?
Maybe his is only weeks away from it’s scheduled engine detonation? That kind of Ultimate Dealership Service Experience is the kind of thing that would drive me straight into Lexus’ waiting arms.
It’s time someone commented on the value of car dealers to the industry. Someone once said that the franchise system was like democracy; imperfect but better than any alternative known so far.Consider: Private capital dealer networks get the new cars sold efficiently (low margins), they digest the used cars, provide service and recall repairs, stock parts efficiently enough to have an over 90% fill rate. They are generally community leaders and big contributors to civic causes. For manufacturers they have absorbed production mistakes, provided flexibility in pricing on a day-to-day basis as only numerous independent merchants could do. Everyone here is complaining about sales practices; not surprising considering how lean margins provide a poor income for salesmen, so the dealer doesn’t exactly have the cream-of-the-crop to choose from when hiring. Look at the totality of the dealership operation and you may have a different perspective.
I should add that I’m a retired( 40 years) multi-franchise new car dealer . I’ve bought 5 new cars in the last two years, Versa, Miata Impreza, Cayman, and Audi S5. Each transaction was a pleasure. Among these five cars, there has not been a SINGLE DEFECT! And in case you wonder, I’m not a roll-over on price.
@Katie:
It sounds like you’re quoting the official rating for MPG for the Fiat 500. Unfortunately, the only word I can come up with to describe British MPG ratings is “insane.”
Luckily, I saved the magazine I was referring to and have scanned the page that shows the fuel economy number for you. See it for yourself here.
It is from the February 4-10 edition of AutoExpress, on page 51, in the first paragraph in the second column. They say ” … while the 1.2-litre Fiat delivered 36.6 mpg”
I’m sure AE was caning the hell out of their test car, but it wasn’t on a racetrack. I’m not accusing Fiat specifically, as most city cars generally get unimpressive mileage for their size. The Toyota iQ they were driving in the same article is rated at 65.7 mpg and delivered 34.6.
The problem with the Porsche M96 engine detonation is that it’s unscheduled. If it were predictable, it wouldn’t be such a concern (twisted as that may sound).
So far I’ve only had to deal with a rear main seal issue (covered under warranty). Knock on wood…
Lexus of Newport: One of the salesman complained of too many “new money” Asians from nearby Irvine that weren’t “target customers”, and that they were difficult to negotiate with. I guess the rows of 100k dollar canary palm trees on their dealership made them too snobby for their own good. When you look down on your customer, it makes it really makes car buying a pain in the arse for us. :/
Whatever. I’d rather have hxc Mexican charbroiled tacos while I’m getting my Toyota serviced than some “fancy” cups of espresso in a big swank lounge at a Lexus dealership.
Well, you can look at it this way:
Porsche watercooled boxers are only likely to explode, but the IS-F is certain to suck.
My 986 Anniversary is turning four this month, and coming out of warranty shortly after that. I am not super-happy about this fact, particularly since driving “The Boot” at the Glen with hot tires produces enough G-load to temporarily flood the left cylinder bank with oil and flash the “Drive to workshop!” warning.
Jack, a good point you make there :-)
When you say “hot tires” are you referring to street tires that are warmed up, or some sort of racing compound?
i really have to write that ‘why car dealers suck’ rant for submission here. until then…
@ 6c1500 :
It’s time someone commented on the value of car dealers to the industry. – my man, plenty of people have commented on the value of car dealers to the industry. most negatively.
Someone once said that the franchise system was like democracy – you mean autocracy, right?
Private capital dealer networks get the new cars sold efficiently (low margins) – be even more efficient if you cut out the middleman.
they digest the used cars – by buying them cheap cheap cheap and then selling them expensive expensive expensive without doing much besides vacuuming, washing and maybe putting an ad in the paper.
provide service and recall repairs – true dat, yo. at a tidy profit, god bless america.
stock parts efficiently enough to have an over 90% fill rate – more money!
They are generally community leaders and big contributors to civic causes – amazing how you don’t make much profit on the sale of a new car yet you can afford to give away all that money to put your name on things.
For manufacturers they have absorbed production mistakes – you sold us the car, not the manufacturer. their mistake is your mistake, amigo.
provided flexibility in pricing on a day-to-day basis as only numerous independent merchants could do – ahhh, i see. day-to-day pricing. so i really could have gotten a better deal somewhere else/some other time.
Everyone here is complaining about sales practices – not everyone. you weren’t.
not surprising – amen!
considering how lean margins provide a poor income for salesmen, so the dealer doesn’t exactly have the cream-of-the-crop to choose from when hiring – so you admit that your salesforce is incompetent and uneducated?
Look at the totality of the dealership operation and you may have a different perspective. – thank you. i most definitely do. it’s even worse than i had feared.
I should add that I’m a retired( 40 years) multi-franchise new car dealer . I’ve bought 5 new cars in the last two years, Versa, Miata Impreza, Cayman, and Audi S5. – so even though your margins are low and hardly make any money on a car sale you can buy 5 new cars in two years?
Each transaction was a pleasure. – buy them from the dealerships that you owned by any chance?
Among these five cars, there has not been a SINGLE DEFECT! – and can be yours for the low low price of…sorry.
And in case you wonder, I’m not a roll-over on price. – but if you look at these four squares, sir, you’ll see your trade value, the purchase price, down payment, and monthly payment.
Sure he does. Secretly he wants a 1800 lb RWD diesel manual wagon.
That would be awesome. Who would want to keep that a secret?
I’ll take mine with turbo, a Torsen, air conditioning, painted in Subaru Midnight Black Metallic.
“Porsche watercooled boxers are only likely to explode, but the IS-F is certain to suck.”
Because it’s a Toyota? Or because it’s not a Porsche?
My understanding of the 80/20 rule is that its actually a 20/80 rule. 20 percent of the people do 80 percent of the work at any work place hence it would be 20 percent of the dealers would be ok and 80 percent would be semi scum.
That #@*hole salesman did you a very, very big favor, Mr Farago.
Although many car salesmen add absolutely no value to the purchase experience, a few do. I used to be one of them, in a previous life.
The tough part is that while consumers expect the $40,000 treatment when buying a $40,000 car, to the salesman it’s a $200 commission. And while you might think nothing of swinging by for a quick test drive in a 300hp sports car without your wife present, the last 13 guys who did that were flakes. Test pilots. Do the math and the 200 bucks just isn’t worth it. The family checking out the folding seats in the Sienna is a much, much better investment of the salesman’s time.
Fortunately, there is a one-word solution for those who require exhaustive or multiple test-drives in a car before they buy it: Hertz.
Fortunately, there is a one-word solution for those who require exhaustive or multiple test-drives in a car before they buy it: Hertz.
I actually ask that very question—“Do you know who rents this car?”—when I try and go see something. I feel it’s important to get a day, at least, in a car to get a real feel for it. Little details like “will this seat hurt me after four hours” or “does my kid, car seat, stroller and associate crap fit” aren’t apparent in under an hour.
The problem is that not everything is rent-able. For example: I’m looking at minivans, and I can find an Uplander, Rondo or Caravan anywhere, but a Mazda5 is scarce and Siennas are never available. Buyers of an IS-F? Good luck with that.
My only real objection with the IS-F is that you can only use a fraction of its capability on the road. I suspect any given distance could be covered by the manual IS 250 within seconds of times managed by the IS-F, and at the end of the day, the 250 will make you a better driver. Not having driven either IS, I can imagine considerable differences in character, but too much capability can make any driver both lazy and dangerous over time. Lazy because power is too readily available; dangerous because following posted limits is boring.
In short, why are you exchanging a scalpel for a broadsword?
Did you really expect the salesperson to toss you the keys to take the car for the day and perhaps overnight? Sure, go ahead and drive it hard. Take it out to for a nice ride. Maybe you put a hundred miles on to be sure the seats are comfortable on long trips. When you are done, simply give the keys back to the salesperson. And if the Mrs. cannot be convinced? Too bad. The Lexus dealer can surely sell the prized IS-F with a few hundred miles and maybe a parking lot ding or two.
Good on you for getting what you want however, I do recall you had a strong disdain for rough riding non-compliant “tuned” suspension – the IS-F is a really firm riding car.
I remember fondly the debate between solid rear axle vs. IRS, and a certain Shelby getting a brow beeting for being skitterish on anything but smooth roads – well now you’ve got a stiff riding equivalent in this IRS setup, and I’m presuming you do know it has fake exhaust tips (how truthy is that?) and an 8spd automatic that likes to row up and down, and up and down (left to it’s own accord).
This dealer may have done you a favour in this instance, you may want to spend some quality time behind the wheel before you take the the final leap.
Good luck.
Robert, my sympathy. I had a similar experience at a Honda dealer today. I’m looking at getting rid of the minivan (no longer need it) and wanted to look at and drive an Element.
They wanted to run my credit before I test drove the thing… Second time I’ve run into that and it pisses me off to no end. I’m car shopping. No, I don’t want to have my credit checked two dozen times while I figure out what I want.
Oh well, more than one Honda dealer around this area.
@JeremyR,
In this case, I meant DOT-Rs (the Hoosier R6) that were up to operating temperature. A Boxster on street tires can’t generate grip to jam the oil into the corner, but on certain long right-handers with R-comps, it can be done. In the case of “The Boot”, it’s heavily off-camber so you’re starting behind the 8-ball anyway.
“They wanted to run my credit before I test drove the thing… Second time I’ve run into that and it pisses me off to no end.”
Can you really blame the dealer for checking the authenticity of your buying capability? Nobody wants to waste time with a credit criminal.
Bridge2far :
Can you really blame the dealer for checking the authenticity of your buying capability?
Yes, I can blame them. What if I’m paying cash? Or my rich uncle is going to pay for the car?
Nobody wants to waste time with a credit criminal.
And I don’t want to waste the credit bureaus’ time checking my score if I don’t even know that I like the car yet.
Besides, credit criminal? Seriously? Lots of people have less than perfect credit for reasons besides felonies. I’m not going to make a sarcastic jab at you about your comment, but it’s harsh and poorly-founded.
Does anyone know if credit checks by dealers impact your FICO score (before you apply for the loan)?
“Does anyone know if credit checks by dealers impact your FICO score (before you apply for the loan)?”
Minimally. Like 1 point per check.
Now Justin if you can, put your self in the shoes of the salesperson. Remember, your paycheck is based on making a sale. A fellow comes in and wants to drive a new vehicle. It is a busy Saturday and this is where you make or break your week. Of course you need to know if your “up” is real. As a salesperson you need to ask the questions. How soon are you making your buying decision? How are you going to pay,? Finance, lease or a cash purchase? These are things you need to know. Otherwise, you are leaving things to chance. The salesperson needs to know that the customer is not only ready and willing, but ABLE. And in today’s climate, it is never a bad thing to get as much info as possible along with a copy of driver license.
We have a Fit for a reason, the Mazda dealer worked themselves out of a sale on a 3.
@Bridge2far :
You make good points, and I sympathize. Seriously.
The problem — and I don’t mean to suggest I’m the first person to say this — is that both sides of the car sales system suck. It’s crappy to be a salesman and it’s crappy to be a customer. It leads both people to act in weird ways, sometimes dishonestly. For every story I can think up about how a salesperson screwed or attempted to screw me or a family member/friend, I’m sure a seasoned salesman could talk about how many customers did rotten stuff, too.
I’m not naive enough to think “let’s all get along.” But it surprises me that with car sales and the economy as they are, sales people wouldn’t be bending over backwards to get sales. Not just on price, but on service.
@Justin:
Besides, credit criminal? Seriously? Lots of people have less than perfect credit for reasons besides felonies. I’m not going to make a sarcastic jab at you about your comment, but it’s harsh and poorly-founded.
“Credit criminal” has nothing to do with committing a felony. It’s a term for people who deliberately borrow money they have no expectation of paying back, or for people who have done so in the past.
It’s possible to be the most vicious, violent felon imaginable and to have perfect credit. *cough*
“I’m not naive enough to think “let’s all get along.” But it surprises me that with car sales and the economy as they are, sales people wouldn’t be bending over backwards to get sales. Not just on price, but on service.”
Your thoughts make perfect sense. However, some individuals are going to give you rotten service no matter what the circumstances. You might not notice it as much during better times. And some will give you great service as well regardless of the economic conditions.