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While Honda preps a beefed-up, AWD Venza-alike for the US market, this is the Accord Wagon that Europeans get to look forward to. The Type S comes with a 2.2 liter turbodiesel that makes 180 hp and pulls 280 factotums of torque [Ed. ha ha] at 2k RPM. Not your typical Honda screamer, eh? Anyway, while Europe yawns at the coming of the Acura brand and the US version of the Euro Accord gets the dismal reception it deserves, Honda seems set on playing me-too with a crossoverized version of the Accord wagon. To which I say fiddlesticks. Even if a diesel isn’t in the cards for the US, just bring us this freaking wagon. Have you seen Acura’s CUV sales?
46 Comments on “The TSX That Might Have Been...”
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They lost the stats? Jeez, I hate it when that happens.
As a closet Honda fanboy, I’m really saddened to see the slow rusting of this once outstanding brand. I remember riding in that first Legend in 1985 or ’86 and thinking, yeah, the Europeans are in trouble.
The fact that Honda, even in the face of wretched Acura sales, won’t take a risk and bring this over shows their marketing mojo has vanished.
Pity.
This car looks awesome. Bring it. There is nothing competing in this space. Ooops. Unless you think Acura competes against BMW. Even if you do, bring it anyway!
The front looks much better than the Jetta Sportwagen (aka Jetta Wagon in Canada). Even if we ever saw this model, it’s too bad there would be no diesel option. I guess the Jetta, chrome and all is the only economical wagon choice for now. I’d seriously look at an Accord wagon if it was available.
No fooling…this would be pretty much at the top of my list. I might even replace the Mazda6 wagon right now!
Such a shame they won’t bring it over :(
In this wagon segment, the current US market really has a very very limited choice, unless you venture into the high end Audi, BMW and MB wagon territory. So I say bring it over, Honda.
That looks fantastic, I’d love for them to bring it over. As a Honda though, not an overpriced Acura.
Turbodiesel + wagon = gimme. Stupid American market. Silly left wingers ragged on diesels for so long they’ve run out a great opportunity to reduce fossil fuel consumption dramatically.
180HP and 280lb/ft of torque! Hp sounds like it’s a gas engine, torque like a diesel. This sounds like an engine.
I don’t get where Honda is going. They had a reputation for being sporty yet green. Now they through the whole sporty thing out, and it looks like it’s going to hurt them. I would say Acura used to be the best Buick you could buy. With the latest offerings, I don’t see why any would would come into a Acura dealership. Honda has to figure things out quickly, or they will end up like American Leyland.
Cool as this would have been, it would not have sold in the US. Subaru, a brand that has a higher percentage a wagon buyers than most, canned the Legacy in the US.
If Subaru can’t do it, why would an supposedly-metrosexual Acura even try?
What Acura needs is this or this. Currently, there’s no entry point into the Acura brand below CA$30K. I know a hell of a lot of people in TLs and MDXs who started out with Integras and base RSXs. Now, the first car of the affluent urban dweller is more likely to be a Jetta/GLI/GTI, A3, MazdaSpeed3 or 323i. The TSX is barely on the radar and the RDX certainly isn’t.
People make the mistake of thinking that Acura’s problems are the mid- and high-end cars. While they need some work, they’re not really bad. The real problem is that Honda decimated Acura’s foundation
Stupid American market. Silly left wingers ragged on diesels for so long they’ve run out a great opportunity to reduce fossil fuel consumption dramatically.**
The problem with diesels is really quite simple: cost and emissions.
One, they burn dirty. In California, in cities like LA, where geography is friendly to smog-forming pollutants, this is a serious issue. Urea injection solves the problem, but at the cost of cost. It’s an expensive system to design and maintain. Plus there’s the whole issue of a turbocharger, high-pressure injectors and an ultra-strong lock. Those don’t come cheap, either.
Two, diesel does not enjoy the artificial tax advantage that it does in certain parts of Europe. This is common: outside of places like France, Italy and Germany, where diesel is cheaper and, just inconsequently I’m sure, the major diesel engine makers are located, gasoline is generally the market preference.
I don’t think you want really blame some kind of leftist conspiracy when the simple explanation—diesel is dirty and expensive—is right there.
Diesels are like hybrids: they work for certain people, under certain conditions. Those conditions do not apply to all people.
** also, please note that diesel efficiency isn’t as high as is often claimed. Diesel fuel is physically more dense, and consumption by mass of fuel instead of by volume, isn’t quite as dramatically different.
These floaty – soft – Americanized wagons will only make the Outback more of a relative delight to drive.
I did say “relative” lest you RS4 Avant owners begin throwing stones.
Perhaps they will even trigger a return of the lost and LOVED (you reading this, Tim Mahoney?) Legacy GT wagon.
Advantage Subaru, say I.
IIRC Mazda6 wagons sold at the rate of about 200/month. And at least half of them went to fleets. Toyota managed to move 1,394 Venzas, all of them being loaded V6 variants MSRP $30K+.
RDX sold 1,141 last month. Acura would be fortunate to sell 1,141 TSX wagons in a year. Cold day in hell, etc.
Small sporty wagons have always failed to capture the mainstream US marketplace.
The “beefed-up, AWD Venza-alike” actually looks pretty good, and is the kind of family truckster that Americans need to wean them off SUVs.
Although after Honda goes through the effort to federalize the Euro Accord TSX sedan, I’m surprised that they don’t bring over the wagon.
TSX Wagon or not, I think there is a market for replacing Acura bird beak grills with the European Gillette razor grills. The TSX wouldn’t look too bad with some minor automotive rhinoplasty.
psarhjinian: “The problem with diesels is really quite simple: cost and emissions.”
There is one more thing. Diesel is the only fuel for big trucks, construction equipment, and locomotives. Only so much of it can be gotten out of each barrel of crude oil, and I’m reading that we are close to that point. So with that kind of competition there is not much point in trying to increase the use of diesel in cars.
Re: Diesel vs. Gasoline:
The VW 1.4 TSI gasoline engine is faster in the Golf than the 2.0 TDI diesel engine (that wins it for me), is less expensive than the TDI, doesn’t smell bad (the TDI still does), and emits about the same amount of CO2 as the TDI.
Gasoline wins.
George B:
There is indeed a market:
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?_nkw=TSX+accord+grill&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=TSX+accord&_osacat=0
Re: Diesel vs. Gasoline:
The VW 1.4 TSI gasoline engine is faster in the Golf than the 2.0 TDI diesel engine (that wins it for me), is less expensive than the TDI, doesn’t smell bad (the TDI still does), and emits about the same amount of CO2 as the TDI.
Gasoline wins.
George B:
There is indeed a market:
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?_nkw=TSX+accord+grill&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=TSX+accord&_osacat=0
George B:
There is quite a market for that replacement on eBay.
As a former Honda fan who turned Nissan and then turned Hyundai (yeah, I know), this rig with the 2.2 turbodiesel would win me back in a second.
Why do carmakers hate North Americans so much?
Folks, listen to psarhjinian. As always, he speaks with wisdom. Diesel is not the messiah of environmental friendliness, because MPGs do not tell the whole story (as I’m sure you’re all aware). For instance, two-stroke mopeds? Worse than SUVs, by far, because of their hydrocarbon output. Sure the SUVs drink a lot more, but they spew out cleaner emissions. Same deal with diesels.
Subaru, a brand that has a higher percentage a wagon buyers than most, canned the Legacy in the US.
Agreed.
psarhjinian:
The problem with diesels is really quite simple: cost and emissions.
The emissions aren’t really that bad. I don’t see why they couldn’t be addressed with a tax. For those who want a diesel, have money, and don’t give a shit about the environment, the greenies ought to propose an appropriate tax.
Hell, if Al Gore can get away with a private jet and a 4000 square foot house by bribing environmental groups purchasing so-called offsets, why can’t I buy a Euro spec diesel?
“Small sporty wagons have always failed to capture the mainstream US marketplace.”
The Accord isn’t that small. It’s more of a 5 than a 3 in Bimmer terms.
And, like no_slushbox points out, even the newest diesels stink.
The stinkers make sense in Europe, where gas is taxed a lot higher than diesel; trucking fleet owners have a lot more lobbying power than regular motorists.
I think America’s pathological hatred of anything station wagon (unless it has a 6″ lift and aggressive styling cues) is the reason the US misses out on many fine vehicles like the Honda featured in this piece.
The first generation TSX/EuroAccord wagon was a vehicle I could not have resisted purchasing. I found it overwhelmingly desirable, perhaps brilliant enough to overcome the prejudices of the American market.
I don’t like that funky back window curve that’s so all Cayenne, and I wish they’d do something that looks like a normal wagon, but the rest of the car looks nice, and I might buy it assuming a stick and a clutch that I can operate with my own left foot. But those two beauties psarhjinian shows in his first post are even more compelling. Bring them here! That Civic sedan especially–oops! hatchback– would likely pry open my wallet if it drives as fun as it looks. But keep the pounds off!
Folks, listen to psarhjinian. As always, he speaks with wisdom. Diesel is not the messiah of environmental friendliness
We are not all tree-huggers. I like torque, and the sensation it gives me as I spew hydrocarbons in the face of the Prius driver who sneered at me at the last gas station.
This is the natural progression of things I guess, where DRLs are bigger than the normal headlights. This is just another abortion in the Acura lineup and I’m glad it won’t come to the US.
Mazda6 wagons were V6 only, and priced accordingly. If they offered a 4 in it they would have sold a lot more.
I bought an Accord wagon, brand new, in the U.S. in 1996. At that time you were lucky to find an Accord anywhere without at least a $1000 “Dealer markup” sticker on it. But the Accord wagons were discounted because they couldn’t move them. They were 4-cyl. only, if Honda would have offered the V6 they would have sold a lot more, instead they didn’t bother offering the wagon in the U.S. when the next generation came out in 1998, made famous by the British commercial with all the parts coming together domino-style. I thought it was a mistake then, even more so now.
psarhjinian:
Cool as this would have been, it would not have sold in the US. Subaru, a brand that has a higher percentage a wagon buyers than most, canned the Legacy in the US.
I wonder if Subaru canned the Legacy wagon in the US because most were opting for an Outback instead. Here in Toronto, I see lots of Outbacks but hardly any Legacy wagons. And lots of XC70s but few V70s.
@rodster205: towards the end, Mazda6 wagons were going for a couple thousand below invoice, putting the price in the low $20k’s. Didn’t help.
I am sure Subaru canned the Legacy wagon because they sold few of them relative to Outbacks…and at a lower marginal profit.
Problem with the Legacy wagon is ground clearance. If they merged the Outback and Legacy, and split the diff in clearance, then all would be well. Outback handles for shit because it is on stilts, but the Legacy is not a rational choice because it is a snowplow, and it bottoms out with normal angles of approach in semi-treacherous parking lots and whatnot. In other words, its a waste of all-wheel-drive. Wagon buyers are the most rational of the rational. Given the choice, living where I live-a snowbelt area, its Outback or another brand.
Check out the Accord Wagon on Honda’s Japanese site. Note, the Accord known to the rest of the world is actually better known as Acura TSX in the US.
http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORDTOURER/
The razor grill would make it look just like a contemporary Infiniti. Like it or not, the beak is the Acura signature now.
They need coupes, convertibles, wagons, anything other than meh sedans and CUVs.
Hrm, I don’t understand. The second generation TSX receives a collective “meh” but a stinker by any other front fascia/hatchback isn’t a stinker at all? Is the grill going to make up for the sport-pretentious steering and suspension? And I’d like to point out the recent news about how Honda’s i-DTEC engines failed its US emission testing (for the auto-transmission variety anyway). So we won’t be seeing this “sport” version in the US anytime soon. I’ve said it before, and I’ll second others here: Honda, please, oh please won’t you bring the European Civic to the US?
Did Subaru’s decision to phase out the Legacy wagon also involve gaining an advantage regarding CAFE? I recall reading that somewhere.
In addition, note that Subaru has been diversifying of late into the CUV field (Forester, Tribeca and a forthcoming CUV whose name escapes me). Wagon sales invariably cannibalize CUVs, so why not dump ’em?
Dumb Subaru. Instead of offering a clear alternative to everyone else’s generic CUVs, Subaru is becoming an also-ran saddled with higher break-even costs due to a dangerously large line up.
We’ve been here before. Remember Subaru in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when it attempted to go mainstream by launching a broad range of cars. That bus tipped over fast, and Subaru only got back on track by refocusing on a narrow range of AWDs — which at the time were relatively unique among passenger cars. A brilliant move. Given that hard-earned experience, why isn’t Subaru now pioneering another new market niche instead of playing follow the leader?
More generally, I don’t think the problem is that Americans won’t buy wagons — it’s that almost no contemporary automaker is willing to focus much attention on that body style. To a certain degree an automaker gets what it pays for. A tentative, halting effort is going to result in mediocre sales. Since almost all automakers are now up to their eyeballs in CUVs, amortizing the huge costs for those vehicles is unfortunately going to take precedence over building a market for wagons.
@ don1967
Why do carmakers hate North Americans so much?
here’s your (own) answer
…as I spew hydrocarbons in the face of the Prius driver who sneered at me at the last gas station.
Sometimes you see a stereotypical American who claims it’s “just so unfair to label me!” and you just have to shake your head in sadness.
Hell, if Al Gore can get away with a private jet and a 4000 square foot house by bribing environmental groups purchasing so-called offsets, why can’t I buy a Euro spec diesel?
Because not enough people are willing to cough up the money. The market for Eurodiesel wagons is tiny, and not enough people are willing to pay the premium for them. There’s barely enough to sustain the Jetta and Passat.
Al Gore paid. Obviously, potential CDI TSX wagon buyers will not.
The emissions aren’t really that bad. I don’t see why they couldn’t be addressed with a tax. For those who want a diesel, have money, and don’t give a shit about the environment, the greenies ought to propose an appropriate tax.
The “tax” is the price of the emissions control system needed to make a TDI 50-state legal. It is possible to make a TDI that meets that level, but it’s expensive, and the market for diesel passenger cars outside of states that subscribe to California emissions is not large. People in North America do not want to pay the money.
Carbon or emissions tax works, but it’s akin to a camera-based speeding enforcement: you’re allowing people to pollute for a fee. As a practical green, I’m ok with this. I’d be surprised if this would fly in much of the US, because it opens the door to addressing the cost of pollution at the source, and there’s a lot of money in not doing that.
@Dr Lemming: Legacy wagon is classified as a car, the Outback wagon is classified as an truck(!). I forgot how Subaru pulled that off, but that does make it easier to meet the lower truck CAFE target as the wagon was canned.
What rules and regulations need to be loosened so that companies like Honda can bring specialty cars like this into the US and make some dough? Is it the crash regulations? Emissions? Can’t the standards of other established bodies be accepted as a proxy, with buyers signing a waiver that they understand that?
Is there some way around this? I want this car!
I’d trade my Audi A6 Avant for this. ‘Nuff said. Bring it.
I’ve stopped pining for this wagon years ago.
It’s not coming here!
From Honda’s POV I guess they’d have to ask what advantages does this have over the Odyssey in the US market?
Also, why does the US Odyssey look different to the Australian one? Do we have the older model? On the road the Australian Odyssey looks less “van like”.
This wagon is beautifuL? C’mon. The grill is horrendously generic-looking, the bumper is frumpy and chunky. Why can’t the Japanese design cars?
Agreed the only half decent (looking) Civic is the hatch.
Station wagons are in a difficult place in the market. Up in America crowded in by CUVs. Down here by minivans (Euro version, Americans would think of them as microvans) and miniminivans, or as said down here, compact minivans – it’s the category most people put the Honda Fit into down here – , so-called multivans (Renault Kangoo, Fiat Doblò, Citröen Berlingo) – similar to Honda Element, Scion xB or Nissan Cube, and also CUVs.
Affordable wagons are only offered by (in order of success) Fiat, VW, Rnault and Peugeot. Toyota gave up last year. And then the imported top-market German ones. Though you can get the Alfa Romeo Sportswagon which just kills the Germans design-wise.