Forty miles without a single drop of gasoline. That’s been the pitch for Chevrolet’s Volt since it was just a concept. And it’s a claim that GM has been hammering hard on in promotional materials, advertisements and to the media. But it seems that the claim deserves an asterisk. Green Fuel Forecast‘s Sam Abuelsamid recently spoke with folks from GM’s Voltec battery development team. In the discussion of the Volt’s thermal management system, an inconvenient truth raises its misshapen head. “If you’re not plugged in and the battery is not conditioned and we’ve got to deal with the elements, right now we’re thinking 0-10°C we won’t use the battery. The more we can use it the better but we’ve got that area of refinement we’ll have to do as we get more of the engines, more of the vehicles, more of the batteries and tune it all up,” GM director of hybrid energy storage systems, Denise Gray tells GFF.
According to Abuelsamid, this means that “if the car is parked unplugged in cold weather and the driver starts it up, the range extender may start up immediately even if the battery has a high state of charge.” In other words, if it’s cold outside and you start your Volt without it being plugged in, GM’s marketing claim of “40 miles without a single drop of gas” claim is plain wrong.
Which is not to say that a quick warm-up using the range-extending gas engine will ruin your lean, mean carbon footprint. But like everything else with the Volt, it shows the fatal hubris of trying to design a car to the specifications of an already-existing marketing campaign.
Plug in hybrids are the new fuel cells.
“right now we’re thinking 0-10°C we won’t use the battery.”
So from 32-50F the batteries don’t work? Smart. Very smart. Maybe they should strike up a partnership with a snowblower company. Oh, that’s right, my snowblower is a Honda.
Lets be realistic.
ELECTRIC VEHICLES are not going to be a reality for a very long time.
If this was a lone island and we were setting up an infrastructure that was going to cater to EVehicles, then we could put up a digital power grid and a couple nuclear power plants to provide power – having plenty of sockets scattered around.
America’s infrastructure can’t handle it right now and its going to be at least 25 years before we can.
We can start building towards it, but I forsee many more years of high gas prices and middle east bullshit.
Its nice that GM is thinking this way, using small amounts of gasoline to bolster the car’s powerplant…but if GM is doing this… EVERY OTHER MAKER should do this – making their next line of vehicles EV’s.
And I am in favor of Congress passing MANDATORY LAWS that say:
Any automobile sold in 2012 must achieve: 60 miles per gallon minimum, or, be an EV hybrid that achieves higher than 75 mpg
All imported cars not meeting this standard would be hit with STEEP Taxes (just like Korea and Japan do to us).
Any car not meeting our new standards would be subject to a $10,000 GAS GUZZLER FEE (lets see them get cute with the law then).
I actually loved it when Obama was talking about the coal plant and mentioned: “If they don’t meet our environmental regulations, I’ll bankrupt them”
That’s exactly what I would do. Not only would I decrease emmissions but by taxing these damned coorporations to DEATH I’ll balance the freakin budget. Trust me, as much as coorporations would hate me, they wouldn’t dare pass up on America’s market to sell their products. And no lobbyists would be able to change my mind or stop me. All change really takes is dedication and determination.
Now I know alot of people are gonna reply with the “big government”, “more government” stuff, but in my philosphy and my parties philosophy, Government services the people and majority rule. I feel the gas crisis is critical to national security and the government MUST ACT ACCORDINGLY.
The LAW must be bulletproof so lawyers can’t find any loopholes to get around these strict requirements.
I don’t see anything wrong with this. GM is bringing out a technology NO ONE else is going to have on the market, atleast affordably and in a mass production form, and they are breaking ground in battery development. The first few years of the volt production may not be perfect, but as more and more are built they will get better and cheaper. Its just like anything else that is ground breaking, the first production run may be expensive and it may not be perfect, but its new technology and thats what counts. (Plus no one really knows what the volt is going to be able to do until it comes out, theres still almost two years of development left on it)
Flashpoint–
That law would force us all to drive Metros and Festivas!
Every day, the Volt sounds more and more like a very expensive Prius with more drag, fewer seats and extra D-cells.
It is a pretty basic scientific principal – chemical reactions (what a battery does to generate electricity) work more efficiently at higher temperatures. And – as noted – if you plug in your ‘plug in hybrid’ at night (hence the name PHEV) the charger will keep the battery cells at the optimum temperature, thus eliminating the issue. And if you don’t keep it plugged in, the fueled engine will drive the generator until the temperature management system for the battery pack gets the temperature up to optimum, then you go to pure electric mode.
How in the world does this result in “GM’s marketing claim of “40 miles without a single drop of gas” claim is plain wrong.”?
What if you have a diesel? Don’t you need to consider the temperature and potentially invest in and use an engine block heater in very cold environments?
“If this was a lone island and we were setting up an infrastructure that was going to cater to EVehicles, then we could put up a digital power grid and a couple nuclear power plants to provide power – having plenty of sockets scattered around.
America’s infrastructure can’t handle it right now and its going to be at least 25 years before we can.”
Meh. That depends on demand. If the gasoline car was 24 months down the pipe we would say the same thing.
Nobody knows what the final automotive solution will be, but getting from here to there is a process. There very likely won’t be one solution for a long time, but a variety of solutions — from E85 to biodiesel to hybrids to plug-in hybrids like the Volt. In the meantime some folks like to poke at the process. Their approach is nothing works so let’s do nothing. However, doing nothing is no solution at all.
Rod Panhard – My understanding is that in the Volt ONLY the battery drives the car. The batteries will work in all temperatures but the gas motor may turn on initially to warm it up (if not plugged in). This really doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. Doesn’t the Prius run the gas motor constantly upon startup in the cold to warm the car up?
Ok, can all the plug-in hybrid boosters please explain to me what happened to fuel cells? That used to be The Next Big Thing, until it wasn’t, now the same people are pushing plug-ins.
This is not exactly a surprise. Batteries don’t work well in extreme cold.
Fuel cells are still where they’ve always been — outrageously expensive. Depending upon who you talk to, a fuel cell stack costs $50,000 to $500,000, with no breakthrough on the horizon. Furthermore, there is no efficient means to create, transport, and store hydrogen needed for fuel cells. Fuel cells are not ready for prime time, and won’t be for at least the next 20 years.
I don’t see what’s such a big deal… who would want to live somewhere where it gets that cold?
“I don’t see what’s such a big deal… who would want to live somewhere where it gets that cold?”
I don’t, either, that’s the last of the plug-ins problems. But GM is doing this so of course it’s terrible. If Toyota or Honda were making the volt, the MSM and blogs would be heaping praise on them about how “brilliant” they are.
Flashpoint, that proposal of yours would not mean we would be forced to drive Geo Metros etc. It would mean the end of the auto industry, and within 10 years, the end of the nation as we know it.
In World War II, even though we still had car production as late as early 1942 (wheras in Europe, virtually all civilian new cars were no longer available from mid-1939), within 3 years the country was close to collapse due to an inability to replace vehicles – despite the fact that very little driving was done. Largely, it was the trucks (delivering goods) which supported the people’s lives with food, which supported the industry that defended the nation, that caused much of the distress.
Your ideas of forcing your plans down everyone else’s throat sound very Obama-like. You should call Washington and get a job.
In the meanwhile, once your law goes into effect, the already tanking global and US economies will essentially, collapse entirely within months if not years.
Look at the disruption of going from 17 million new cars to the equivalent of 10 million new cars per year in about a year. Think what would happen if new car sales was ZERO.
That’s what your plan would do, in reality.
BTW that ad? It’s DISGUSTING. And I’m a real dog lover. I just would not ever a) let my dog lick my feet and b) film anything that disgusting and c) use it as a national advertisement! Sheesh.
BDB :
“Ok, can all the plug-in hybrid boosters please explain to me what happened to fuel cells? That used to be The Next Big Thing, until it wasn’t, now the same people are pushing plug-ins.”
That’s not very logical. Fuel cells and plug-in hybrids are totally different technologies. The practicality of one has no bearing on the practicality of the other.
It’s also unclear to whom you are speaking. I remain short on fuel cell technology and long on plug-in hybrids, as I always have been.
As illogical and meaningless as it is, I could take the same argument and turn it around. The same people who said hybrids wouldn’t work now say plug-in hybrids won’t work.
In truth the technology will stand or fall on its own merit and upon market demand.
Since the Volt’s battery pack and engine are now being outsourced abroad I say heck with it. Let it go the way of the EV1.
Why couldn’t GM just produce a efficient hybrid like the Prius.
jfsvo :
Rod Panhard – My understanding is that in the Volt ONLY the battery drives the car. The batteries will work in all temperatures but the gas motor may turn on initially to warm it up (if not plugged in). This really doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. Doesn’t the Prius run the gas motor constantly upon startup in the cold to warm the car up?
jfsvo, my understanding is that the gas engine will supply electricity directly to the electric motor, not through the battery.
My understanding is gained from GM PR, though, so who knows.
jfsvo: “Doesn’t the Prius run the gas motor constantly upon startup in the cold to warm the car up?”
The Prius stores the hot coolant in a vacuum bottle to keep it warm between uses. The one I test-drove did start the motor right away (added: but it had been sitting for some days). Some of the improvements in the ’10 Prius involve heat management and storage (electric water pump, now).
I tend to agree… it’s not such a big deal. People in LA or Miami won’t notice this “problem” at all and up here in the Frozen North, we’re used to that sort of thing. I would hope GM takes steps to mitigate this but regular ICEs suffer from the cold, too, so it’s not a big deal. In the summer, no problem at all and GM’s mentioning of “conditioning” the battery suggests that they’ll make sure it’s kept warm when plugged in.
Thinking a little further, since the motor charges the battery, it makes “warming up the car,” which people here do, anyway, less wasteful. The car will warm up but will add some charge to the battery as it does so. You can go to a car warmed by waste heat generated from storing some charge instead of just wasting idle time getting the car warmed up.
Remote starters are fairly popular among my friends.
Could even be a selling point, of sorts, or the right kind of “remote start,” I suppose GM would call it “Activate” or something, could be an accessory worth a few bucks.
Of course, at $40K, the Volt is going to need a LOT of selling points and nifty accessories.
If this is an emerging ‘class’ of vehicle…which it is…I would certainly compare the Volt to the competing vehicles in this class. The Prius seems to be one of the few to compare to. From what I have seen, the Volt may be more expensive, seat fewer people and may have less reliability from a company that is possibly going bankrupt. I would say GM is a little late to the party on and that this Volt thing may not fly.
Is going 40 miles without a drop of gas really THAT great of an achievement from a company that spends gazillions on R&D for new vehicles? Give me a $Billion bucks and I could make a car that goes 40 miles without a drop of gas no problemo.
AnOldBikeGuy, “How in the world does this result in “GM’s marketing claim of “40 miles without a single drop of gas” claim is plain wrong.”?”
Actually, it does not. The problem lies in marketing. People are thinking they’ll be able to buy a Volt, drive it 40 miles or less every day without using any gas. This is likely not going to be the case.
The Volt will (probably) go 40 miles without using gas (lights off, no A/C, etc) but it might not be your FIRST 40 miles of the day and that could lead to some disappointment among consumers.
GM has tricky expectations to manage and doing a poor job of, in this case, promising EXACTLY what they deliver could still lead to unfavorable publicity.
GM also can’t say, “You’ll get 100mpg.” You might get 100mpg, regularly. However, there will be many situations where you won’t come anywhere near that, say on the second day of a two-day trip. Without an overnight charge, you’ll get the basic “Range-Extended” fuel economy, which will be something like 45mpg. Not bad but nowhere near 100mpg. You can’t look at the fuel gauge and say, “I’ve got 6 gallons – that’s good for 600 miles because I get ‘100mpg’ around town” and then drive by every gas station between Minneapolis and Chicago without ending up at the side of the road, calling Triple-A.
This is a non-issue. Name a single carmaker that has had 100% technical truth in advertising claims.
Additionally, ALL CARS get worse fuel economy when it is that cold because the engine runs rich when warming up, and then you are running more accessories most of the time (wipers, lights, etc.). I don’t see anyone putting up a post about how Toyota is a bunch of liars because that Prius gets worse fuel economy in January in Michigan than their EPA numbers – which they do. So lets be fair here.
And its well known that batteries, especially Li-Ion – don’t do well in cold temperatures. So Rod Panhard, unless your Snow blower is using Li-Ion batteries (which I highly doubt), your comment is comparing apples to oranges. And even Lead Acid batteries don’t like cold weather. When its 10 below (degrees F) my car starts appreciable slower than when its above 20.
the duke :
You did notice the name of the website on the way in, yes?
A question for you E.E. I know a battery doesnt work well when cold, and I know a bat. will warm up when being charged. Doesnt a bat. also warm up to some extent when being discharged, that is being used? I was thinking that the elec. car batteries would warm up once a load was put on them.
“Not only would I decrease emmissions [sic] but by taxing these damned coorporations [sic] to DEATH I’ll balance the freakin [sic] budget.”
So what are you going to do after you have cooked and eaten the goose that used to lay golden eggs?
They’ve been saying it for years:
“Your mileage may vary.”
Flashpoint, unless said fines came with legal language that states: “Penalties must come out of operating profits AND executive salaries, AND the company that gets fined is imposed upon with a 10 year price freeze/ceiling of x-amount per kWhr, etc.” Because when corporations have to actually pay taxes, or penalties, they raise their fees to cover them, then they never drop the rates ever again, so the customers would have to pay for all the coal power company’s pollution and mismanagement!
The Volt will never see a showroom. Chevy doesn’t post actual performance or economy numbers. This car may have terrible driveability after Mile 40. Infrastructure shortcomings will limit its deployment.
Consumers will quickly figure out all the shortcomings, and the numbers won’t add up. Chevy knows this car can’t make money, so the government will have to subsidize it. Will it do this, if GM is on welfare?
@mfgreen40:
Yes, the battery will self-heat when discharging as well. The problem is that the internal resistance of the battery is greater when the cells are cold, and so it will generate additional waste heat, and may not provide maximum power output (possibly a Bad Thing if you decide to hit a freeway on-ramp with a cold battery that is five years into its lifespan).
Go put your cell phone (or digital camera) battery into the freezer for a hour or two, and then see what kind of charge cycle performance you can get from it. I’m sure it will be underwhelming.
the duke,
Sure, all specs are somewhat flexible. But the problem with the Volt is that GM has been hyping the h3ll out of it for two years, it’s two years away and every pinhead in the world can remember just one thing about it: No gas for 40 miles!
At The Ultimate GM Volt Fanboi Web Site, there are people who say they’re going to drain all the fuel out of their tank because they have a commute of 39.9 miles and they’re going 100% electric (big middle finger to OPEC)!
If they can get the Volt on the road by November of 2010, specs as promised, GM may still be able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I don’t, either, that’s the last of the plug-ins problems. But GM is doing this so of course it’s terrible. If Toyota or Honda were making the volt, the MSM and blogs would be heaping praise on them about how “brilliant” they are.
You are missing the point, BDB!
If Honda or Toyota were making the Volt, they won’t be telling you what a great car this is before they even had a working prototype. They’d engineer the car to their own specifications (why set the public up for disappointment?), put it in showrooms and then start pointing out the accomplishments.
Refer to how Toyota executed the Prius for details.
I know that the Volt is just Vaporware, and a PR exercise. I came to this conclusion when GM started claiming that the Volt is an electric car. It isn’t.
Engineer: This is nothing new. This is how GM has worked for decades. They develop a new car, hype it up as if it will change the entire industry, and it just turns out to be another mediocre GM product. The Volt is no different.
@Robert Farago
You got me there. The point I was trying to make was that this felt to me as reaching for something else to slam the Volt on. As I see it, GM and the Volt have enough well deserved criticism that this is not just a cheap shot, but a bit of a double standard – because no car achieves EPA test performance in cold weather.
In fact, the fuel penalty could very well be comparable that realized when your average soccer mom drives her car with tires underinflated by 10-15psi in cold weather.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a big Volt fan, but this is criticism leveled at the Volt that if it were discussed with any other car would be ignored. Perhaps GM deserves it with the hype they are bestowing upon this car, but I wanted to put perspective on the issue.
Give it all a rest, will yah! The cynicism…you can cut it with a knife!
Truth is, the Volt represents the very best of what GM will and can be. This is is an ALL electric vehicle! Who among us can not wait to get our hands on a car that propels us, air conditions us, steers us, brakes us, stabilizes us, sings to us, directs us and more…all without a single direct connection of 3,4,6,8,12 or 16 pushrods to a propulsion mechanism? It’s revolutionary, I say! It’ ALIVE!
How? Because, for the first time in history, men and women will enjoy massed-produced vehicles with drive trains propelling them solely without internal combustion engines! The whoosh and hum of an electric motor, intermittently interrupted by the soft hum of a combustion engine, revving at seemingly-incongruous rotations when compared to the speed of the vehicle, all to charge its propulsion batteries, will capture all of us.
And that all takes nothing from the beautifully-designed exterior and interior of this obvious success.
Why is this success all but guaranteed? For the reasons mentioned PLUS one other huge factor: The Volt is not dependent upon the latest and greatest hydride-lithium-ion-polymer battery race to define its personality. Its personality is that it’s fully electric with no direct internal combustion engine connections. And, when you talk batteries, its Lithium Ion battery is only second to Lithium Polymer for its weight and capacity and performance. Switching to polymer only makes things better and smaller and the pot sweeter.
No, dear hearts, this is a winner. Hurray for GM!
rayted32, “… this is a winner. Hurray for GM!”
It’s a $40K “economy car.” It seats only 4, will have class-trailing range, will probably enjoy classic GM reliability and operates in two modes:
– A battery-electric vehicle rendered less effective by pushing around a heavy ICE. There are still Rav4-EVs out there that, using NiMH battery technology, get better electric range than the Volt (and they will seat 5 and I’m fairly certain they have more cargo room).
– A serial hybrid rendered less effective by pushing around a heavy battery. In this mode it competes with the Prius but at a $20K disadvantage.
The economic case for this car, such as it is, is weakened, perversely, either by driving more than 40 miles per day or by driving less than 40 miles per day. Every day. All year.
The only thing going for it is a $7500 tax credit designer-crafted to put the Volt in the sweet spot (but which will, to Detroit’s consternation, also apply to PHEVs from any other source – and these are likely on the way).
Without the tax credit (and maybe even with it), you could either:
Buy a Volt
or
Buy a Prius and all the gas to fuel it for 15 years.
And remember, this vehicle is being brought to you by a company that can’t make a commercial success of any one of six existing hybrids featuring two completely different powertrains.
So it’s the same problem as the Prius. Which I experienced first hand the other day when someone was trying to show off the switch between gas and electric – except the electric motor refused to engage no matter what because of the cold weather. Oops.
0-10 degrees is balmy here in Montreal. That’s fall and spring temps. When it hits 10 degrees I start riding my motorcycle. Typical winter range is -5 to -15, with the odd drop to less than -20. Last time I was in the Maritimes it was -27. Let’s see how the Volt (and the Prius et cetera) deal with that.
I actually think that GM could produce a good car with the Volt, criticism should be probably be directed at the car’s likely profit margins.
Warming up an engine/battery (regardless of temparture range) is simply not a big deal, and if marketing promises keep you up at night (OMG it’s not infinite MPG!?!) I have no idea how you remain a fan of the automobile.
The prospect of driving a car with only one type of engine connected to the drivewheels appeals far more than our current near electric options.
JEC,
Here in The Twin Cities, I know several people who drive Priuses year-round. Last month, we “enjoyed” several overnight lows between -10F and -20F. We had the kind of mornings where the dog had to be dragged out of the house and then he did his business as fast as he possibly could and practically tore my arm off trying to get back inside.
The Priuses showed up in the parking lot in the morning and then went home at the end of the day, just like anything other car.
Toyota built a winner and they kept it real. If it’s being purchased for image, to save the planet, to poke OPEC in the eye or whatever, well, for a small premium over a Corolla, people can afford to indulge their self-images or social consciences. If it’s purchased for pure practicality, well, for a small premium over a Corolla, they get a car with much better fuel economy and almost the interior room of a Camry.
Note, the Honda Insight is aimed almost squarely at this same market. The good people at Honda usually do well in their small car marketing and manufacturing efforts. The smart money is, apparently, on planet-saving, OPEC-bashing, fuel-miserly, greenwashing vehicles that retail in the neighborhood of $20K.
The problem with the Volt is that people are going to be far less likely to indulge their social consciences or shell out the extra green for the greenwashing when it’s a $20+K uplift over a Corolla. Compounding the problem is the non-stop GM hype machine and a lot of natural confusion over just how the thing works.
Confusion that is largely fed by a GM PR department that doesn’t understand, either, and a clueless Car Czar. I’ll bet the GM tech team winces whenever anybody from Corporate Communications opens their mouths and I’ll bet they put their heads down and cry when Lutz cranks up.
And when part of the marketing of the car involves that “green image,” it probably doesn’t help to have your Car Czar claim that “global warming is a crock of sh!t.”
The problem isn’t that the Volt will do this. That’s ok, and GM is being upfront, as much as you’d expect.
The problem is the reporting. There’s a real lack of critical analysis on a lot of the green transport and energy options out there. As best as I can tell it’s partly because the mainstream media doesn’t get particularly deeply into this kind of thing, preferring soundbites and disingenuous oversimplification, or because there’s a lack of will to criticize things that look green but aren’t, or because there’s money to be made in blogging, if not shilling, green-tinted snakeoil.
Now, I’m an environmentalist, and it’s stuff like this that gives the green industry a bad name. Much like the misunderstanding and oversimplification of the issues surrounding Climate Change actually fuels the anti-Global Warming movement, things like corn ethanol, hydrogen fuel cells and two-seat battery EVs or one-litre turbodiesels being compared to the Prius make real progress on environmental issues hard.
Sam Abuelsamid is a nice guy, and the enthusiasm he has is helpful, but between his postings at Autoblog and here I think he needs to be a little more critical and holistic in his thinking.
“The problem is the reporting. There’s a real lack of critical analysis on a lot of the green transport and energy options out there. As best as I can tell it’s partly because the mainstream media doesn’t get particularly deeply into this kind of thing, preferring soundbites and disingenuous oversimplification, or because there’s a lack of will to criticize things that look green but aren’t, or because there’s money to be made in blogging, if not shilling, green-tinted snakeoil.”
QFMFT! I couldn’t put it better.
If a volt blows up on an NBC videocamera, will anyone believe it happened? Will NBC actually air it? Would CNN?
At any rate, RF is absolutely correct. At this point, whatever the thing turns out like, it is going to be a failure to many people because it is less than promised. The only thing going for GM right now is that most people aren’t really paying attention, and the press will likely hype the car because they are mostly greenies.
psarhjinian
couldn’t agree more. Seriously.
Although I’d say there is a point to comparing turbodiesels to hybrids, if only because consumer preference still drives this purchasing decision, and hybrids manufacturers still need pushing since they can’t make a quality (driver oriented) product yet. If the discussion was centered around a government mandate that one tech or the other be implemented then I would definitely agree that the hybrids are the environmentally friendly decision b/c of; 1. Illness caused by diesel emissions. 2. The obvious lead-in that hybrids are giving pure EV’s in tech. development
GM knows how to build cars. Pontiac “G” Series, Vettes, Cobalt, Chevy Trucks, all Cadillacs, the Buick SUV and it’s cross-corporate cousins. Did I miss any? Prolley.
Thing is, build quality won’t be the issue on the Volt. It’s new, different and will fly off the shelves. There is, nor will be anything like it for its size except perhaps the Chinese two-mode electric on the horizon; and that’s a HUGE unknown!
Nah, Americans are dreamers and gageteers; we’re gonna want one and there’s a lot of us out there. This car, whether it comes in under or over the bar for all you skeptics, is the real deal when it comes to “invention”. It’s no Segway. It’s got a very real buyer’s proposition: All new drive train humming down the road, all charged up last night on night-rate kilowatts and gettin’ bo-koo green miles per gallon. Buy American and…get in line!
Although I’d say there is a point to comparing turbodiesels to hybrids
Comparing a Jetta or Passat to a Prius in a head-to-head test in the same conditions, noting the strengths of both (hybrids: urban; diesel: highway) is totally valid, and I’m entirely behind someone who chooses a Jetta wagon, for example, if it better meets their needs.
Hybrids are useful, but I will agree that they don’t always make sense, which is why I don’t own one.
Sensationalist “OMFG!Dieselbeatsprius!!” tests where they compare a concept Peugeot 107 with a 1.0L diesel three-cylinder or suchlike, using the UK highway figures versus the Prius EPA city or combined is not. This is what AutoblogGreen is notorious for doing, and it’s simple fanboy-baiting for both sides of the argument designed to generate page hits.
Diesels are now green, quiet and start up with a turn of the key. Trouble is, even WITH the huge mileage advantage for as little as $1500 above the price of a gas burner, the arrogant and outrageous $1 more per gallon cost of diesel kills the comparo. Only die hard diesel owners will buy another at this point. No American buying proposition, period.
psarhjinian
hahahaha…yeah, and while those arguments are kind of entertaining, it’s only b/c Prius owners tend to be panty-twisters when it comes to highway milage comparisons and the anti-environmentalist crowd automatically jumps in to scream “libural.” Gets. Old. Quick.
rayted32
Yup, I drive a 96 diesel VW and I hate myself for not selling a few months ago. My car, with numerous little flaws and an old turbo would have sold for thousands over my investment in it (exhaust, suspension, the works). Now (thanks to the diesel tax) I get to enjoy a similar dollar-per-mile ratio as a Honda Fit driver, but without the ability to rev past 3500rpm. I could have almost made a straight trade for a mid-milage late 90’s 3-series (at today’s prices, I’m checking daily). The torque is nice, sure, but rev-matching isn’t quite as fun as it should be and pushing a FWD sedan makes me feel like a cow. The only thing worse than that is an Atkinson cycle with a CVT.
Clean diesels are dirtier than the average gas car – while hybrids are much cleaner. They aren’t green – not even puke green.
GM isn’t claiming that the Volt will have a 40 mile electric only range under all conditions. Heck, the energy needed to get the passenger compartment comfortable in cold weather is going to have to come from somewhere, and it makes more sense to use waste heat from the ICE than it would to burn battery power warming things up.
There is plenty to make fun of GM for, but this little nit is just that, a nit.
After these outsourcing issues the Volt is off my shopping list and probably now off many other’s list. My tax dollars should not go abroad!
Does anyone really think this turkey is going to be a success? Does anyone remember the EV1?
Remember, there is energy being used to recharge the Volt. The Volt is just transferring fuel consumption from the drive train to the electrical power grid.
Author: akear
Comment:
“After these outsourcing issues the Volt is off my shopping list and probably now off many other’s list. My tax dollars should not go abroad!”
We are an international economy. Get over it!
“Does anyone really think this turkey is going to be a success? Does anyone remember the EV1?”
No market then. There is one now…and growing!
“Remember, there is energy being used to recharge the Volt. The Volt is just transferring fuel consumption from the drive train to the electrical power grid.”
What is it about electric night rates that you don’t understand? That’s the true leverage, here. Without it, the advantage diminishes but still remains the “best” business proposition of all the mean green solutions.
The Volt is going to fail anyway so why I am worrying about it.
Everything Lutz touches at GM is doomed to flop. He has lost his touch!!!!
In five years time I bet you I am correct about the Volt. Heck, it may not even be produced in any numbers until 2012.
By rushing to be first, GM is locking itself into unfinished technology. When competitors come out with their PHEVs in 2012-13, they will end up having better, more mature tech, and GM will be behind AGAIN.
Author: dwford
Comment:
“By rushing to be first, GM is locking itself into unfinished technology. When competitors come out with their PHEVs in 2012-13, they will end up having better, more mature tech, and GM will be behind AGAIN.”
IMHO, GM’s ahead of the game in concept, that being plug-in with detached ICE assist. Train locomotives have been doing it for years except without the batteries.
Batteries are a work in progress and right now the best answer is lithium polymer. Why? One, because there is, by definition, less space and weight taken up by the packaging. Think of it as filling up all those spaces left between AA batteries when you stand them all next to each other. Two, because the polymer is “moldable”; I envision a day when there will be no center stack like in the Volt but…moldable polymer in the linings of the doors and particularly the roof where voltaic cells combine with lithium polymer to both collect and store energy. Caveats? Insurance bill in an accident. Yikes! But, the day will come when the battery will be the body!
The Volt is just Litte Boy Blue blowing his horn. How many times have we heard about GM producing a revolutionary car or a product that will “fly off the shelves’. Anyone remember the SSR truck, the Aztec?
These GM guys all sit around every Friday morning in big product meetings and try to figure out what to communicate as PR ‘wins’….then some overzealous product manager for the Volt says under his breath “The Volt proto went 40 miles without a drop of gas the other day.” They all go “Hooray!” and they fold it into some rumor that cannot be substantiated. They blow it up and they feed off each other. Tired of GM.
Author: Blobinski
Comment:
“The Volt is just Litte Boy Blue blowing his horn. How many times have we heard about GM producing a revolutionary car or a product that will “fly off the shelves’. Anyone remember the SSR truck, the Aztec?”
That’s just poor vision, Blob. Ask yourself, how can the same company that makes the Vette and the Cadillac make the Aztec? By not paying attention. Now that they are under the scrutinizing eye of the public, they will HAVE TO change. If not, they die.
“These GM guys all sit around every Friday morning in big product meetings and try to figure out what to communicate as PR ‘wins’….then some overzealous product manager for the Volt says under his breath “The Volt proto went 40 miles without a drop of gas the other day.” They all go “Hooray!” and they fold it into some rumor that cannot be substantiated. They blow it up and they feed off each other. Tired of GM.”
No doubt a sick culture but, within it, there are sleeping geniuses who have to be prodded by a gifted leader. Until that happens, more mediocrity. BTW, the Volt is NOT mediocre. It is a winning design and concept which could be put on the market as we speak if the bastards weren’t so scared of their own shadows. Lithium ion/Lithium Polymer has plateaued and there will be no significant battery evolution for at least 5 years. So WTF are they waiting for? Your guess is as good as mine.
@rayted
Solar cells are quite inefficient. Flexible polymer batteries are very expensive and heavy. Just the ones for RC cars are spendy. Manufacturing custom batteries into each door or roof panel would be hugely expensive as well, especially in low volumes for custom applications.
I just don’t see GM as a leader in this technology space. GM has failed with their other hybrids. They will struggle to hold onto engineers and R&D dollars for the Volt program. I can appreciate your enthusiasm though….we all could stand to be as enthusiastic and passionate about something these days.
Blobinski :
February 5th, 2009 at 10:04 am
@rayted
“Solar cells are quite inefficient. Flexible polymer batteries are very expensive and heavy. Just the ones for RC cars are spendy. Manufacturing custom batteries into each door or roof panel would be hugely expensive as well, especially in low volumes for custom applications.”
The 2010 Prius has solar cells driving interior-cooling fans as we speak.
Re: moldable polymer: All modestly curved and flat areas would be just as good. Picture a 24″ x 24″ left rear door panel or 2 of those in an upper trunk panel. They could also double as insulation and noise reduction. It’s gonna happen. Re: price – It’s like anything else; when economies of scale kick in, greatly reduced costs. Look at flat panel TV’s!
“I just don’t see GM as a leader in this technology space. GM has failed with their other hybrids. They will struggle to hold onto engineers and R&D dollars for the Volt program. I can appreciate your enthusiasm though.”
Thanks, Blob. Leader? Leader! I’m talking about just being IN THE HUNT! Their concept, which has no equal, is brilliant and, provided they have no control problems (makes sense that they wouldn’t since there’s no coordination of two disparate propulsion systems) they could go to market now. There’s battery makers all over the place waiting to be the ones! Nah, this car is a winner and anyone who tells you different can’t envision a whole new way of “whooshing” from point “A” to point “B” that people are just gonna love. And, the only stress on this power train comes from a gasoline engine under minimal load requirements and steady powercurve operation. Means 200,000 miles or more on the ICE. Win-win!
KixStart: A battery-electric vehicle rendered less effective by pushing around a heavy ICE. There are still Rav4-EVs out there that, using NiMH battery technology, get better electric range than the Volt (and they will seat 5 and I’m fairly certain they have more cargo room).
And the NiMH battery isn’t as fragile, temp sensitive, or short lived as the Volt battery. There are Rav4EVs out there with 150K+ miles on the original battery. Yes there is less battery power when the temps are low just like any other battery but it doesn’t damage the battery like some of the lithium batteries.
Let’s quit nailing the battery cars over their winter performance. Folks in the coldest climates ought to stick to the gasoline or diesel powered cars. Let the battery cars be sold south of the Mason-Dixon line. Ferraris are not very good in deep winter snow either. Porsche 911s aren’t very good at towing boats. Harley’s can’t seat six. We still sell all of them.
Let’s keep it real (even if GM isn’t). An EV or even the Volt is going to be best suited for milder climates. I can’t believe that GM isn’t talking about the effect of sub-freezing weather on a battery car of any type. Hey folks we’ve got a great product coming but understand that 5F is going to seriously impact your car’s efficiency.
Author: joeaverage
Comment:
“Let’s keep it real (even if GM isn’t). An EV or even the Volt is going to be best suited for milder climates. I can’t believe that GM isn’t talking about the effect of sub-freezing weather on a battery car of any type. Hey folks we’ve got a great product coming but understand that 5F is going to seriously impact your car’s efficiency.”
I’d be interested in extrapolated mileage figures for Volts in N.E./NY/N.J area over the winter time and if winter’s the price you pay for the ICE spinning more often and say 10-20 mpg maximum less but still being significantly better than any ICE or Prius/Civic/Fusion. I mean, how bad can the degradation be and…when the winter kicks in, it’s across the board for all vehicles, not just Volt? Educate me.
There is an EV design consulting company in Ottawa (where gets very cold) that did some cold weather testing on EV conversions a few years back, and found that properly conditioned EV battery packs could function in -17 degree Celsius (that’s about 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit) with less than 8% range reduction. The tests were done with Environment Canada’s fuel efficiency testing equipment and procedures, so it’s a pretty good test. Two vehicles were tested, one with a 2 year old battery pack (both lead-acid), and they were left in -17 degree temperatures for 18 hours with just the pack warmer on before testing.
http://www.revconsultants.com/winterizing.html
The key was simple thermal management of the battery pack. With a properly heated pack, the main difference in range seemed to come down to the cold weather efficiency of the electric drivetrain and gearbox lubricants. The car with the more efficient drivetrain only experienced a 0.4% reduction in range, which is very impressive.
EVs work just fine in cold climates, if they are designed properly for them, which the Volt is by all accounts.
I agree that this is a non issue. It’s only going to happen if the car has been left out in the cold, and not plugged-in. When left in the cold, the genset will run on startup to power the motor until the battery heaters bring the pack up to operating temperature. Then the genset will shut off and the pack will take over until it is dicharged. This makes perfect sense for battery preservation reasons. You still get your full EV range (dependant on conditions, accessories, driving style, etc…), just not right from startup. Those in milder climates will never experience this, nor will anyone in cold climates who routinely plug-in thier Volt whenever it’s stationary.
As a Canadian who suffers through some rough winters, I know my ICE car doesn’t like the cold weather very much either. I am more than willing to accept this design compromise for a third or so of the year if it makes the Volt a reality.
“EVs work just fine in cold climates, if they are designed properly for them, which the Volt is by all accounts.
I aggree that this is a non issue. It’s only an issue if the car has been left out in the cold, and not plugged-in. When left in the cold, the genset will run on startup to power the motor until the battery heaters bring the pack up to operating temperature. Then the genset will shut off and the pack will take over until it is dicharged. This makes perfect sense for battery preservation reasons. You still get your full EV range, just not right away. Those in milder climates will never experience this, nor will anyone in cold climates who routinely plug-in thier Volt whenever it’s stationary.” — kgurnsey (full text in comment just above)
Thanks, kgurnsey, I’m convinced and I hope others are, too. I’m no fanboy GM apologist. Like so many American, fat cat bureaucracies, they have truly lost their way.
Volt, either by accident, divine providence or some secretly-operating rogue pack of GM geniuses, is a winner which, while perhaps not turning around what to many is a huge “garbage scow” of a company…will certainly bring to the world a great and revolutionary form of middle America transportation: A fully electric-motor-driven-vehicle with two very economic ways of creating and storing electricity for its daily propulsion. I’m waiting in line for mine!