I’m paraphrasing of course, in the grand TTAC style. But what are we to make of GM’s pre-bailout beg-a-thon announcement that Chevy’s electric/gas plug-in hybrid Volt will be easier to upgrade than a “conventional” car? Automotive News reckons Frank Weber’s assertion means “GM eyes fast gains with future Volt models.” But then we’re Garth to their Michael, and they still illustrate their Volt stories with the slammed concept car. Oh, hell, you be the judge. “This is almost like getting software updates into your car,” asserts the Volt’s global vehicle line executive. “This is not a mechanical world. So, even within a vehicle lifecycle you will see updates that are very significant.” How vague is that? Predictably so, given “GM expects to begin production of the Volt in 2010. The company has not said when it expects to roll out the second generation of the vehicle, but plans to focus on cutting the size and cost of the battery are a top priority. GM has not said how long it will take to produce an offshoot of the Volt.” Nor how much it will cost, if it really will go 40 miles on battery power alone, how long it will take to recharge, etc. But we do know one VERY important fact: GM will not make money on the Volt v1. AN programs the reminder . . .
GM plans to build about 10,000 Volts in the first year of production and eventually push annual output to about 60,000… GM has said it does not expect to make money on the first generation of the Volt, making its subsequent launches more important for the struggling automaker.
Is it me, or does this dovetail perfectly with GM’s “our plan is to make a plan” planning for its upcoming date with its new paymasters (i.e., the U.S. taxpayers)? In other words, THIS Volt isn’t the REAL Volt, but just wait/pay until you see what we do NEXT!
There shouldn’t be a one volt fits all model. For regions where there is excessive sunlight round the clock, they should offer a solar panel sunroof, prefferably, a transparent panaramic roof with photovoltaic cells.
This way, if you live in desert like regions you get round the clock recharging.
The Volt will not work unless the spending bills give us a new Digital Electrical infrastructure.
PERIOD.
There are alot of homes with garages or external AC outlets, but depending on the Amps this thing requires, and the safety associated with running wires outside your house – the success of this is anyone’s guess.
I really believe we should focus on Hydrogen production for Hydrogen powered cars.
The battery technology required for plug-ins is not going to be adequate for decades to come.
With $19k Honda Insights arriving any day now, who in their right mind would buy a $35-45k Volt? The answer: NOBODY. This hype-to-failure ratio will surpass anything seen in automotive history. And from a sales aspect, think of Honda´s reliability reputation compared to GM. What are these GM clowns thinking?
re: photo
It is probably impossible for an electric car to be recharged in any reasonable time with the cord shown. It appears to be a standard 110 volt cord and the recharge time could possibly be days (or even weeks!)
As for upgradability. Get ready for cars to get obsolete much more quickly. You used to buy a TV set and keep it for 20 years. You bought a car and used it for 10 years or more. The upgradability of a car would be determined by economics. If the Volt 1.0 can be upgraded to the Volt 1.5, will the manufacturer make money doing the upgrade? Some upgrades will eventually be so extensive that the economics won’t pay or they cannot be physically done. Can your 1990 33MHz 386 computer with 640k of memory be upgraded to 4Gb of RAM?
If the Insight goes on sale at $19k, I’ll drink a gallon of oil.
Of course all of the code written for the Volt is written in America right?
Ah yes……..Who Killed The Electric Car(part2)
The Volt is a great idea, in theory. I live in a part of the country with extremely low electric rates, and charging the Volt every night would cost very little. But I don’t want to spend $40k on an economy car.
That said, the comments I’ve seen about recharging are wrong. The Volt will fully recharge using a standard 15-amp 120V AC outlet in 8 hours. It will fully recharge using a 240V AC source (essentially, a dryer plug) in 3 hours.
Detroit-X :
With $19k Honda Insights arriving any day now, who in their right mind would buy a $35-45k Volt? The answer: NOBODY. This hype-to-failure ratio will surpass anything seen in automotive history. And from a sales aspect, think of Honda´s reliability reputation compared to GM. What are these GM clowns thinking?
Well, I would amend this slightly. There will be a few of these in Hollywood, a few in Portland OR, and about as many in Cambridge as there are Peugeots (six, I think). That is, of course, if someone can turn this fantasy into a real car at last.
Sir, even my Macbook Air does not recharge that quickly.
What happens when everyone plugs their Volt in at night, when the system can’t handle everyone’s A/C being on at once.
2003 Blackout
Robert, this is not exactly news and not exactly a surprise. This is a very different drivetrain that will have a lot of new software and hardware. It will be v1.0 and will change significantly over time.
MBella,
Peak demand is usually over by 10. Electric cars can be recharged 12-6. This is not a problem.
Jared,
Don’t overestimate the “upgrade” potential of new software. Unless GM’s algorithms are really bad, there’s not much to be achieved there. The one notable improvement would be in trip planning software but that will only work if you tell the Volt where you are headed for each trip.
Unless the car’s going to drive itself, telling the computer where I’m going is an extra and unnecessary task when I already know the way and don’t need advice.
—
From the article: “[GM’s] plans to focus on cutting the size and cost of the battery are a top priority.”
How? GM doesn’t manufacture batteries. LG and others do. What’s GM going to do, appoint 5 or 6 new vice-presidents to fly the Gulfstream to Korea every couple of days and badger LG for a smaller/cheaper battery?
@segfault
A standard outlet is 15 amps at 120v which equals 1800watts. One hp is 746watts. So you are charging at a maybe 2hp rate.(only allowed to use 80% of the 15a by code and not 100% efficency.(anyone know how efficient the charging process is?) So after 8 hours of charging you would have 16hp for one hour. And I don’t see how this is so inexpensive, the new solar electric around here is going for 40 plus cents per kwr. So one hours charge is going to run you around 8 bucks at 19,200 watts.
I have a hundred amp service on my house. At 240v and 80 amps is 19,200 watts. Not enough to rapidly charge any electric car of any larger size.
This is why GM cannot build a real electric vehicle. The battery tech is not there and electric is only good for short range city travel. In the early 1900’s electrics were vey popular for travelling in the city. When roads were built between the cities the electrics died off since they had the same problem as today with a lack of range.
Don’t overestimate the “upgrade” potential of new software.
Huh? What did I write that implied there would some huge potential via software upgrade?
This is an entirely new type of drivetrain. It is controlled by software. There are many different strategies that can be applied — when to start the engine, when/if to recharge the batteries, how to best manage the transition between regenerative braking and standard braking. These algorithms will get improved over time.
Yes, the differences between the versions will likely not make huge changes in performance. But just as the Toyota Prius has significantly improved the transition between its regenerative braking and standard braking over the years, the Volt drivetrain will make its marginal improvements over the years. Some of those improvements will come from software. Some will come from software and hardware and won’t be available for backfit.
But it is no surprise that the drivetrain will change over time, particularly when it is based on such new technology. And the gist of this article, right from the get-go with the title “our car is already dated” is just simply over the top. They are just grasping at straws for yet one more thing to bash over GM’s head.
There’s plenty of mistakes that GM has made (and are continuing to make) that are surely worth bashing them over the head about. The fact that the Volt will see software changes over time, however, is not one of them.
I think an important point here is not so much the technology – which is highly suspect right now, rather the business case on which GM’s future is being based upon.
Today’s GM Volt is a money loser.
They’ve said it, we’ve said it. Nevertheless, the rational to go ahead with the project was that the Volt will help develop electric technologies – that will be profitable – in the future.
Ok then. So where/when can we expect the Volt 2.0 – you know, the one that makes money for GM?
That’s the problem – it does not exist.
Mr. Farago, you are EXACTLY right.
MikeInCanada, you are EXACTLY right also.
I’m shocked (pun alert) that GM admits the Volt 1.0 will be a money loser. How can they justify drilling more holes in the boat while they sink?
GM should know that others are already – or very close to – releasing decent electric cars (e.g. Mini). As a consumer, I’d go with one of those over the Volt 1.0 or 2.0 vaporware, if I was forced to ‘go green’. Otherwise, I’d just buy a Cube for half the price of a Volt, and half the trouble.
Jared,
Well, I suppose I read more into the “significantly, as in, “It will be v1.0 and will change significantly over time” than you intended.
OK, I’m duly deflated. But in your follow-up, you also highlight the nature of this “incremental improvement” plan for GM:
“But just as the Toyota Prius has significantly improved the transition between its regenerative braking and standard braking over the years, the Volt drivetrain will make its marginal improvements over the years.”
And the problem is, Toyota has already made these significant improvements. So has Ford. GM’s at the steep end of the learning curve, 13 years (in 2010, at Volt debut) behind Toyota and 6 years behind Ford and the Gen 1 Volt will probably be on shelves at a dealer near you through 2014… maybe even longer.
This is just a bargeload of catch-up to do.
This goes to MikeInCanada’s observation… Where’s the profit in this plan? When is the profit in this plan?
KixStart: I’m a software developer. I think it is safe to say that the Volt software will change significantly over time. That does not necessarily imply large changes in performance. It can take a lot of work to make small improvements.
Is GM going to lose money on each one? Probably. Of course, Lutz has pretty much been saying that ever since the first announcement of the Volt, so that’s not exactly a shocking insight.
Is GM behind in hybrid technology? Yes. That’s not news either, and it is something that GM has admitted on numerous occasions.
However, GM might be ahead in range-extended vehicle technology. Will this lead pay off? Will they be able to bring the Volt to market at a reasonable price? Will GM be around long enough to do so? All of those questions are open to debate.
Also, the Volt is significantly different than the Prius. So while they would both appeal to the same market (people with a lot of money who want to make a statement), they aren’t directly comparable.
bluecon: Another way of looking at the Volt charging is that GM is claiming* that the Volt will go 40 mi on the net 8 kWh in the battery pack. That is 200 Wh/mi. If you can get 1800 Wh out of a standard line in one hour, you can go 9 mi., so you are charging at 9 mph. A 240 V * 30 A line would be 4 times as fast. Of course, there is resistance and other losses in the process so YMMV.
*and you believed them.
Software upgrades are very common in new cars. And the more computers are car has, the more likely it’ll need a software upgrade from time to time.
TrueDelta’s policy on these is to not count them in its repair stats as long as they’re covered by the warranty.
Jared: “However, GM might be ahead in range-extended vehicle technology.”
How? Toyota puts the test fleet on the road this year. They have an ICE, an electric motor and a battery in the current vehicle. So does Ford. An RE-EV is a HEV that runs the motor less often.
Jared: “Also, the Volt is significantly different than the Prius. So while they would both appeal to the same market (people with a lot of money who want to make a statement), they aren’t directly comparable.”
The Prius also appeals to people who don’t have a lot of money but want to make a statement (or are concerned for the future price of gas of some other reasons). It starts at $22K or so. The Volt is estimated to cost $40K (there will be tax credits to ease the pain but perhaps the final MSRP will also be higher than $40K). The only thing that will prevent the Volt being labeled a flop in 2011 is the ridiculously small quantity of Volts that will be available.
Although… Maybe I should keep an open mind on that. GM’s current hybrid program is a flop in spite of the ridiculously small quantity of hybrids availabe, so I guess it’s possible for the Volt, too.
I was musing about the Volt – my wife loves the idea of a clean electric car – no messy stinky gasoline! Even better than the Prius she (thinks that she)wants. I started trying to imagine her coming home from work and plugging in the car in our garage.
Then I started thinking about what a wet rainy day it is today, and the thought of her trying to plug-in a wet, dripping, 220-volt Volt with a wet dirty electrical cord made me frown.
A snow and ice covered car would probably be safer but the cord with still probably be wet and dirty.
I don’t even want to think about doing this on a rainy day in a parking lot at work. I have a reserved spot, but I don’t rate covered parking.
Surely I’m missing something that makes this a neat, tidy process.
So how does all this work?
Does anybody have any specifics of how the plug-in cord system will work?
Is the plug-in cord attached to the car on a spring-wind, like the power cord on a vacuum cleaner?
Is it in the front, the back, on which side of the car?
How long is the cord?
I’m starting to think that a Prius that you fill with gas every 2 weeks is a lot less hassle than an electric that you MUST plug in every night, come rain or snow, or sleet, or dark of night.
Gimme More Corp still hasn’t demonstrated that they can make conventional vehicles profitably.
Bunter
title response. the EV1 would still be relevant today with updated batteries. GM = fail.
I am not a GM defender, but there is a lot of misinformation here.
Lokkii: I think the power cord is detachable. If you are talking about power outlets in a garage or outdoors, they will be GFCI to prevent you from getting zapped. You don’t have to plug the Volt in every night.
Bluecon: One horsepower is 550 ft-lbs/second and equals 747.7 watts; electricity consumption is measured in kilowatt-hours, not watts. The average price of electricity in the US is around 10-12 cents per kilowatt hour, not the 40 cents you quote.
How? Toyota puts the test fleet on the road this year. They have an ICE, an electric motor and a battery in the current vehicle. So does Ford. An RE-EV is a HEV that runs the motor less often.
As you are well aware, the Volt motor is not connected to the driveline, so the technology is significantly different. Furthermore, the Volt is using more advanced battery technology. Whether it will really work as advertised, is of course, still an unanswered question. Whether it will be better than a Prius with extra batteries is another open question.
The Prius also appeals to people who don’t have a lot of money but want to make a statement (or are concerned for the future price of gas of some other reasons). It starts at $22K or so.
Like the Volt, the Prius is simply not economically justifiable to the buyer. You will pay more over the life of a Prius than you would over the life of a Corolla — the cost of gas saved won’t equal the added purchase price of the Prius + interest. Furthermore, if you look at the economic profile of the people who buy a Prius, you will see that they are primarily relatively affluent. They aren’t buying a Prius to save money. They are buying a Prius to make a statement about how green they are.
The Volt of course, will likely be even less economically justifiable than the Prius.
The only thing that will prevent the Volt being labeled a flop in 2011 is the ridiculously small quantity of Volts that will be available.
So, when did GM release its planned production figures for 2011?
Then I started thinking about what a wet rainy day it is today, and the thought of her trying to plug-in a wet, dripping, 220-volt Volt with a wet dirty electrical cord made me frown.
That’s actually pretty easy to work around: have the plug be retractable and stored within the vehicle on a sprunt, which makes sense since you’re. Plugging things in when wet, especially if you’re wearing shoes, is not really a big deal: just don’t touch the metal.
If people can learn to not smoke while filling their car with gas, they can learn to not touch the metal prongs.
The other option for potential customers, which no-one seems to think about, are those who, wealthy or not, are willing to pay extra for a vehicle that emits less of the bad stuff, for the benfit of all and the planet we live on.
I don’t get why hybrids and EVs are judged so harchly on thier “payback period”. Not everything in this world is about business and money.
It seems like the only people are willing to purchase a hybrid or EV are either cheap, but deluded (since the payback for any current hybrid system just isn’t there for the average driver) or you’re a publicity mongering eco-whore. Is it so hard to imagine that someone would be willing to pay money simply to reduce thier impact? It’s ok to blow one’s heard earned cash on entertainment, vanity, functionality, quality, living expenses, charity, and any number of other things, but when it comes to purchasing something of higher ecological quality, or making an investment in the future of our climate, we are all reduced to either scrooges or celebrity wannabees.
Seriously.
Jared:
I agree that the Volt is a fundimentally different type of drivetrain solution than the Prius, which is why I tend to differentiate between parallel, or blended serial/parallel, hybrids or plug-ins (PHEVs) and serial hybrids or battery only EVs (EV or E-REV). One might think that a PHEV is essentiall the same thing, but they typically have smaller electric motors and batteries, and rely more on the ICE for actual motivation, cutting in and out for extra power, than purely serial designs. PHEVs may even be slightly more efficient from a liquid fuel perspective (debatable), and are easier on the battery since the ICE is used for power, but the point of the E-REV is to drive as much as possible without using the ICE at all. The difference may be subtle now, but it has signifigant long term consequences for how we view the urgency of getting off petroleum. The E-REV, because of the punishment is wreaks on the battery pack compared to other drivetrain solutions, is the hardest to design. Technologically, I would say that GM is still on the forefront with the Volt, as they were with the EV1.
MBella :
February 11th, 2009 at 9:40 am
What happens when everyone plugs their Volt in at night, when the system can’t handle everyone’s A/C being on at once.
You answered your own question. A/C is used during the day, not the night. There’s excess power at night-always has been, always will be.
Besides, a decade of production of Volts (maybe a half million units, probably less), all charging at the same time (not going to happen), would use an insignificant amount of power compared to other electrical uses throughout the country.
The phase-in of plug-in hybrids will be so slow (multiple decades) that the power grid can easily be upgraded to keep pace.
It doesn’t matter whether it is a Prius/Insight/Volt/etc., if you want to travel 40 miles on electricity, these vehicles would all need to have the same capacity battery (within reason of course).
That battery roughly costs $10,000.
Does anyone think that Toyota will sell a plugin Prius with the range of the Volt for the same price they currently charge?
So it must follow that comparing the Prius and Volt is apples and oranges, they are meant for two different markets (how big the Volt market is up for debate).
Jared: “As you are well aware, the Volt motor is not connected to the driveline, so the technology is significantly different. Furthermore, the Volt is using more advanced battery technology.”
First, the 2010 test fleet Prius PHEVs will have a much more advanced battery – probably similar to the Volt’s but smaller and less costly. It is thought that Toyota is aiming for 20 miles of electric range.
From the perspective of the customer, a car with a plug AND a fuel filler port is the same drivetrain as any other car with a plug AND a fuel filler port. There will be llittle market differentiation. If Toyota can assure people that the car will drive electrically for some significant range (20 miles should do it; I’d take less but it all depends on price), then it’s the same thing as a Volt.
Jared: “Like the Volt, the Prius is simply not economically justifiable to the buyer.”
For the sake of argument, I’ll allow that. The difference, though, is that the 2010 non-PHEV Prius is on the order of $5K of economically unjustifiable. The Volt is $23K of economically unjustifiable. I’m quite sure the number of people who are willing to overlook $5K of economically unjustifiable is much larger than the number of peopl willing to overlook $23K of economically unjustifiable. The PHEV Prius will fall somewhere in between.
Jared, “So, when did GM release its planned production figures for 2011?”
GM has announced “10K units for the first full year of production.” Since it is being introduced, they say, in November, 2010, that’s about 800 units/month through November of 2011. If they suddenly ramp to the 60K/year level that they have announced for subsequent years at the tail end of 2011, then we might see 18K Volts by the end of 2011. Don’t get your hopes up.
“Furthermore, if you look at the economic profile of the people who buy a Prius, you will see that they are primarily relatively affluent. They aren’t buying a Prius to save money. They are buying a Prius to make a statement about how green they are.”
Incorrect. Most people bought the Prius to save money. My wife and I bought a Prius on January 1, 2008 for $1000 under invoice, this was right before fuel prices escalated rapidly last year. There were plenty of cars on the lot, many of which were 2007 models such as my wife’s. Come March/April 2008, there was a 3 month waiting list again due to the high fuel prices.
The first group of buyers may have been making a green statement, but a majority of the buyers now are trying to save money.
All we know is when it’s released it’s going to be a nicely hyped dissapointment just like too many other prior GM models.
I don’t even care; less to blink at this vehicle until something really good comes from it.
With the pace of technological advances speeding up, on the fly upgrades area god-send, and will likely be mandatory to remain competitive in the future. Many common technologies are going this way. TVs can receive updates to software. My Blue Ray player has had several already, and they have made a difference in performance. This is a good thing. To the contrary, it’s not about current products being already obsolete, and waiting to see what GM will do next, it’s about keeping what they produce now competitive with tomorrow’s technology.
KixStart:
Current Li-Ion batteries being used in automotive traction applications have a hard time dealing with stresses from heavy acceleration related discharges, and cycling. Hard, but not impossible. There are two ways to deal with this at the moment, either you make the battery bigger to absorb the stress, or you shift the stress to a different component of the drivetrain. EVs don’t have as hard a time, because the battery packs are naturally much larger. Shorter range E-REV batteries, like those in the Volt, are cycled much more often, creating larger stresses, and being smaller with less cells to draw from, are more subject to higher discharge stresses as well. The battery pack in the Volt bears the full brunt of acceleration discharges and cycling, since the electric motor is providing all of the motive force. In the Volt, the ICE only produces electricity, in the Toyota design it does not. Toyota has chosen, for their own reasons, to go with option ‘B’. The ICE in a blended system runs not only to generate electricity, but also to make up for the lack of power coming from the battery pack. Thus the electric motor is smaller, less powerful, and the battery pack is smaller. The ICE must run more often to make up for the lack of battery power, but the pack is not exposed to the same level of acceleration and cycling stresses. In addition, the PHEV Prius simply has less range, which is a decision that Toyota made when sizing their pack, possibly to reduce cost or simply because they cannot change the existing HEV design enough to incorporate a more energy dense system. It’s not that the battery is any more advanced or cheaper; it’s a fundamental design issue that incorporates the entire vehicle and the compromises/choices made during its design. The Prius in particular smacks of a patchwork PHEV, not a ground up design. Toyota had no intention of producing a PHEV, to my knowledge, and seems to be essentially attempting to rig a bolt-on plug-in solution to the Prius in order to catch up. Who’s behind the curve again?
The end result is that, from a technical and consumer experience perspective, if you live 30 miles away from work, you will notice the ICE running more often. Burning more gas. If you typically have/want to accelerate hard, drive on a freeway, or generally go about the normal working day of the average person, you will notice the ICE running more often. Burning more gas. It is not possible, as far as I understand how the PHEV Prius is intended to be produced, to run solely as an EV except under very stringent conditions. Which is to say mostly never for the average person. The electrical power is not there, the battery size is not there to support it, and the fundamental design requires the ICE to supplement the electric system, in order to reduce battery stress and design complexity, thereby using more gas. If you take a long trip, depleting the battery charge and running continuously off the generator for some distance, they will likely end up with much the same performance. If you are the type of driver who commutes well past 40 miles regularly on the highway, you may notice little difference. For everyone else, which is most people, most of the time, there will be a significant difference.
I will repeat: the designs are fundamentally different. The fact that the PHEV costs less due to its smaller battery is a side note, from a technical perspective, though it would certainly be a factor taken into account in more encompassing business and marketing decisions. GM feel they have a market for the Volt at the price it will be sold, in the numbers they intend to produce it over time and as they ramp up production. I tend to agree. Toyota also feels they have a market for their solution, at their price and yearly volumes. They probably do. Time will tell, and both could be correct. Whether the consuming populace understands what they are driving well enough to make an informed purchasing decision is another matter altogether, but there is a fundamental difference between the cars and the designs. They will perform differently, with different end results to fuel efficiency and energy use, regardless of who chooses to buy/drive them or for whatever reason. An E-REV will allow for extended periods of time with gasoline free driving for the average commuter, possibly only ever using fuel for weekend trips out of town, regardless of power/acceleration requirements or speed. A PHEV Prius, or similar designs like it from Ford, will not.
For myself, and those interested in reducing our dependence on petroleum as a deciding factor for our future vehicle choices, the Volt is a better design. It achieves the end of transitioning wholly to electric power better, though it is a more expensive solution in the short term. It pushes the envelope of battery design farther, making the prospect of more advanced EVs, completely supplanting the ICE, a closer reality. For some, it is a cost worth paying in the long run, an investment in the future of our climate, energy efficiency, and energy independance. The PHEV, on the other hand, is a half assed, cobbled together, cowardly attempt in comparison, and an insult to what we, as a species, are capable of technologically, and to those who are really looking to make a difference.
kgurnsey: “Current Li-Ion batteries being used in automotive applications traction applications have a hard time dealing with stresses from heavy acceleration related discharges, and cycling.”
I think you’re arguing against yourself. The ICE in the serial/parallel designs allows the engine to offload stress from the battery pack. In fact, Toyota carefully manages the NiMH in the current Prius and is undoubtedly prepared to do the same for tne 2010 Prius when equipped with a bigger battery.
kgurnsey, “I will repeat: the designs are fundamentally different.”
I heard you the first time. Yes, they are. So what? They both have a plug and a fuel filler port and some sort of electric range. The customer won’t care if there’s actually little rechargeable robot hamsters under there. There’s a little bit of real difference between the two cars and those who want an “electric car” and understand the real difference (these people are few) and are willing to pony up an extra $17.5K (these people are few and not necessarily the same as those other few people) will like the Volt. Those who just want to leverage electricity to reduce oil consumption will consider both and the dollars will tip people away from the Volt.
kgurnsey, “It is not possible, as far as I understand how the PHEV Prius is intended to be produced, to run solely as an EV except under very stringent conditions. Which is to say mostly never for the average person.”
I know people for whom they do often operate electrically. And the electric operation parameters for the 2010 Prius, on which the PHEV will be based (there are testers on the current production chassis with NiMHs running around – not the same thing at all) has much broader electric operating parameters.
kgurnsey, “The PHEV, on the other hand, is a half assed, cobbled together, cowardly attempt in comparison, and an insult to what we, as a species, are capable of technologically, and those who are really looking to make a difference.”
It is a natural, useful and inexpensive to develop extension of what Toyota and Ford currently have on the road.
I’m results-oriented. Relatively inexpensive, available in significant quantity, proven track record, reduced GHGs and oil consumption… these things count for me, as they will for many others.
If your goals for the electrification of the automobile are reduced GHGs, better balance of trade and reduced support of dictatorships, the Priuses on the road today are having a much greater impact than the first few hundred thousand Volts will – and they will take quite a while to deliver.
And here’s a thought… What about the people who don’t need 40 miles of travel each day? Why would they spend a lot of extra money for 20 miles they rarely need? It’s a squeeze play; between the Prius and other options, the natural market for the Volt is very, very narrow. Toyota’s strategy allows them to offer a car with negligible electric range at a very good price or a car with some useful electric range at a reasonable price. GM’s strategy is a one-size-fits-all Volt at a pretty high price.
KixStart:
I’m not arguing against myself. The PHEV design does offload some of the stress on the battery pack to the ICE, using gas in the process. I said as much, and we both agree. My beef is with being forced to use petroleum to accelerate beyond the ability of the electric motor, and to drive on the highway, instead of grid sourced electrons. No matter how carefully the pack is managed, it’s simply not big enough, nor is the motor big enough, to drive the car under all conditions, without gas support, for any distance or length of time. Only within defined parameters does in work in electric only mode, at low speeds under gentle acceleration.
I understand that some people are capable of keeping the car within it’s electric drive parameters, when it’s possible to do so. That’s great, but the problem is that it’s not always possible to do so, and should be unnecessary. Personally, I’ve never seen a Prius on the road without the ICE running. I also understand that the parameters are being widened somewhat for the Gen 3, and that is good. The easier it is to maintain electric operation the better. Ultimately, though, I have no desire to “try to keep my car in EV mode”, I want it to be in EV mode. All the time, when there is power in the pack. Which the Volt is. And the Prius is not.
Interestingly, the wider and wider the electric only parameters become, the more and more it operates like a serial hybrid, and less like a parallel hybrid. If the motor and battery in the Prius were powerful enough to drive the car under all conditions, it wouldn’t need to be coupled to the ICE. It would, in effect, become a serial hybrid, like the Volt. The end result in both cases is the same, and will resemble the design GM is currently working on with the Volt. The catch point in both cases is the battery pack. GM is hitting the problem head on, relying on economies of scale to eventually drive the price of advanced batteries down, while Ford and Toyota are coming around from the side, inching closer as cheaper batteries get better and better.
I’m not saying that there isn’t a market for the PHEV, or that there isn’t a good business case for it. There is, on both counts. My personal feelings about the PHEV aside, I’m glad that Ford and Toyota are at least going this far, and making progress, since some plug in is better than no plug in. If they sell gobs and gobs of them I will be glad, and somewhat content that we are heading in the right direction, just not as fast as we could be. I am results oriented as well, just that my expectations are perhaps a bit higher. I expect our results to be equal to our capability. To me, after making the the EV1 a reality, in the flesh, producing anything less is a cop-out. EVs were on the road a decade ago, E-REVs were in the works, and yet we are just getting back to them now… why? Imagine where we could have been today with those 10 years of development. All lost, but for a bit of vision and testicular fortitude. Better business perhaps, but less than what we are capable of. It’s like being shown haute cuisine, and offered McDonalds. And then upgraded to Applebee’s, and expected to be thankful. It’s insulting.
“Furthermore, if you look at the economic profile of the people who buy a Prius, you will see that they are primarily relatively affluent. They aren’t buying a Prius to save money. They are buying a Prius to make a statement about how green they are.”
Funny thing. I know three people with Prii and they were all driven only partly by cost savings or green credentials. Thay are all geeks (nerds) and enjoy all the little techo displays and reading about the cool stuff happening under the hood. They just like driving something interesting.
kgurnsey, there are plenty of battery-electric cars like the EV-1 available as conversions. They are very reliable, cheaper than the EV-1 was, and work well within a limited range. Buy one of those, or make one yourself.
The major carmakers have all found that business to be a bust. (That may change with the Ford/Magna battery-electric car in development.) To complain that we would know have better electric vehicles if the EV-1 and similar cars had not been abandoned is, in my view, misguided.
With $19k Honda Insights arriving any day now, who in their right mind would buy a $35-45k Volt? The answer: NOBODY.
Bingo.
The Volt is vaporware that has somehow managed to manifest itself into something tangible, yet it’s still destined to vanish in a puff of smoke at any given time. The Insight will finally make the Volt do just that. Finally.
tesla deathwatcher:
Conversions do not offer the intigration, unified feel, reliability, tested durability, and features available on a fully engineered EV from a major manufacturer. E-REVs are much more difficult to achieve from a conversion standpoint. Integrating a range extender and having it work seamlessly is not a simple matter. If it were that easy, GM wouldn’t be spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D to develop and test these systems. The devil is always in the details. Given no other option, I would go down the conversion route, but I would prefer an engineered, tested, and refined option from a major manufacturer.
Major manufacturers abandoned EVs for reasons other than lack of interest. There was a line up for the EV1, and every other EV at the time. Tesla has a waiting list 1000 strong and growing, Aptera has a waiting list, hell, BMW is delaying the launch of the Mini EV because they have too many applicants. Every EV maker on the planet, vapourware or not, has a waiting list. There is a large pent up demand for these vehicles, at any price. To say that a business can’t sell cars in that strong a market, claiming that it’s ‘bust’, is misinformed.
John Williams: With Tesla having a 1 year wait for a 110k toy car, I’m sure, out of the 300 million people in the USofA, let alone the world, GM will find buyers for every last one of the 10k Volts to be produced in year 1, at asking price. After that, as battery costs start to fall, and production ramps up, the market will expand from there.