Newbie TTAC registrant USLuxuryman entered this comment under the post Ford-UAW Deal Rejected By Two Locals. I’m republishing it here because I think it’s important for all of us to understand the fears, frustrations and general motivations of the workers at the sharp end. Now, if he could just walk away from that endless quiver of spears . . . . [NB: USLuxuryman is protected by TTAC’s no-flaming rule. Obviously.]
As an Auto Worker, instead of some hateful, biased, resentful outsider, let me help give you some perspective!
I work for Chrysler, but the ENTIRE AUTO INDUSTRY is in free-fall, and for a VARIETY of reasons! Those two Locals, or any others, have the RIGHT to say YES OR NO, just like you could vote for McCain or Obama! You have no say in that any more than I DO if you let your Police,Fire, and Teachers lose their jobs because you don’t wanna pay more in taxes!
if a Ballplayer turns down $45 Million, I can’t call him a fool, he is obviously in a different economic-bracket than you or me! These factors affecting our Economy were not caused by or controlled by the average Blue-Collar OR White-Collar worker in this or related industries!
The Big-Three didn’t MAKE you buy SUV’s and Pickups! AMERICA wanted these vehicles until the 4/Gal gas slaughter helped to KILL the economy! We DON’T make the decisions that put us in this shape, or put the Credit-markets, Housing-markets, or the economy overall in the shape that it is in today! We take direction from Management, just like most of you do on your jobs.
I pay taxes just like you, and my Industry and employer pays much more than the average firms do to our Government. Why shouldn’t my Industry deserve to be helped, when we employ so many people and contribute so much to this economy? Wall Street doesn’t not provide even HALF of the jobs that the Big Three and related Industries do!
I don’t feel that we should have to BEG for a loan, instead of negotiating for help, since I know that we are MORE deserving of the US Government’s (of which we are a part!) help than Toyota,Honda,Mercedes-Benz, and Hyundai! On an average 40-hour paycheck, I send $250/week to Washington as Federal taxes!
When the Airline Pilots, and Mechanics fought for a raise, and didn’t want their Airlines to merge, I supported their right to negotiate and to say no if they did not like the terms of the agreements. No new contract or wage-concession opening of a Contract is gonna get 100% approval!
This is a Democratic-process! Just like I can’t tell you to not drive a Big-Ass SUV, if that is what you want to do with your money, you can’t tell me that I have to vote YES on WAGE-Concessions! The majority of us gave concessions in 2005,2007, and the MAJORITY is still voting for it NOW!
I can’t tell AIG or CITIGroup not to give bonuses or buy JETS! If a Damn Basketball Team or a rich Preacher can have a jet, why can’t the CEO of GM or Chrysler! The Lobbyists and Congressional-Leaders travel by JET frequently!
I NEVER hear you complaining about the Wealthy having over-sized homes and Boats, and fleets of cars (and the excess energy that they are wasting for the few folks that live or ride in them. I don’t want any of the wasteful IDIOTS in DC(the ones that got us TRILLIONS of $$$ in debt!) trying to tell me what to drive!
What if I am a Coach, or am in Construction, or pull a boat or trailer? When the Hollywood Actors and Actresses struck for better wages and benefits, I harbored no resentment toward them, just because SOME of them make a lot of money compared to me!
Even though I sympathize with anyone who has lost their jobs, or had their wages, hours, or benefits cut, workers in the Auto Industry have been reduced by 50% in the last 10 years! If you don’t have any income-protection,pension,health-care benefits, or severance-packages on your job, GUESS why we urged you to join a UNION years ago!
When we were selling 12-17 Million cars a year in the US, the executives and the CEO’s drowned themselves in money, while the rest of us were barely keeping up with inflation!
They made so much money (when we had TWICE as many workers!) they bought Jaguar/Range Rover/Volvo/Saab/Aston-Martin/Hummer, among others! FYI, Toyota,Nissan,Mercedes,BMW, and many other makers had V-8’s and 300+/HP cars and trucks just like the Big Three, because that is what we WANTED!
I’ve been catching up on reading lately. An editorial in the Wednesday, November 12th edition of Investor’s Business Daily made a lot of really good arguments that GM (really, any badly run/managed business) should be let alone to die.
The article says “die,” although Chapter 11 isn’t “death”, but a chance to reorg and possibly gain new life under new management. It would be a “death” of sorts, but (hopefully) followed by a rebirth.
Well, the article does contain a number of well-made arguments that this would ultimately be good for Michigan because it would eventually result in a sort of renaissance of new business, new industry. A renaissance that cannot happen while the old is being kept on life support.
“FYI, Toyota,Nissan,Mercedes,BMW, and many other makers had V-8’s and 300+/HP cars and trucks just like the Big Three, because that is what we WANTED!”
Yes, and they are all paying the price for making these cars. However, just because a company makes poor decisions that they deserve our tax dollars?
I’m a small-government kind of guy. Big Government bailouts have not shown exactly a shining track record of success. The big 3 have not been exactly profitable during good times, and I seriously doubt that they can profit during the bad.
About consumer demand. So what. American’s have demanded stupid things for years. Be it pet rocks to pokemon, capitalism has stepped in to fill the wants of America. However, is what he neglected to mention is that the wants of America (And it’s economic climate) change, and you can not blame the consumer. #1 rule in business: Never blame the consumer. And now that American’s have strayed from large trucks, GM should have met a need that the consumer had.
Did it?
I grew up in a UAW family. My father recently retired from GM after 42 years. He was in the “skilled trades” unit in an assembly plant most of those 42 years. He went to work for GM in the early 1960’s right out of high school with the promise of employment, continuing education, health and life insurance and a retirement plan.
These benefits were written into contracts negotiated by the UAW.
What do you people to expect these millions of workers and retirees to do? “Let GM die”? That will leave millions of Americans in need. That need will far exceed what is costing to “fix” GM, Chrysler and eventually Ford.
This man, like many others are scared to death that everything they have been taught is crap, scared that everything they have worked for will be gone. They took these jobs and worked in hot summer weather with no a/c, cold winters with little to no heat, regulated pee breaks, repetitive assembly line work for the security of knowing they would always have a job that would support their families. That was the promise of a UAW job for 50+ years.
People everywhere calling them lazy, overpaid oafs. Why are you attacking them? It is management that determines what is produced and how many defects a vehicle can have when it leaves the factory. It is management who decides to use inferior quality parts that do not seem to last as long as foreign competitors parts.
Please stop maligning the workers. How would you feel if you were blamed for all the mistakes your boss has made?
I married into the UAW, and I agree with forraymond. If “quality is job one” then it should be engineered into the vehicle by design and sourcing quality materials. That being said, I still don’t understand as a taxpayer why I have to pay for GM and Chrysler’s mismanagement. In particular, I don’t understand why Rick Wagoner still has a job. Maybe it’s not his fault, maybe no one else could have done better, but an honorable man would have resigned on principle.
forraymond:
Just how much is needed to fix GM/Chrysler and Ford? You say the cost of fixing them is less than the burden of millions of worker and retirees without benefit. This is assuming that we can fix the automakers eventrually. What if it’s not possible to fix those automakers or that the cost of fixing them is greater than the burden of retiree and current workers? what then?
The existence of UAW is tied to the existence of Big 2.8. When big 2.8 go out of business, so will the UAW. Now if the UAW is not willing to compromise to ensure the survival of 2.8, why should we the tax payer foot the bill instead of spending money elsewhere?
one thing
i don’t care if John Travolta or Tom Cruise has half a dozen jets between them… they earn their money and they don’t beg for handouts and have zero impact on the taxpayer
it is very very brazen to compare this to Wagoner or Nardelli who are asking for govt. money and wanting to waste that money on Bombardiers
no-one has sympathy for the UAW parasites and big 2.8 bigwigs who are getting the comeuppance they deserve
“FYI, Toyota,Nissan,Mercedes,BMW, and many other makers had V-8’s and 300+/HP cars and trucks just like the Big Three, because that is what we WANTED!”
Yes, but at the same time BMW invested in the MINI and 1 Series, Toyota the Yaris and Prius, Nissan the Versa etc.
I agree with many of the points made by USLuxuryman and by forraymond.
I also agree with abcb.
If we can get out of this severe recession someday…if the U.S. economy rebounds and we start hearing about record sales and profits once again, I feel that as a nation,we seriously need to revisit pension and benefit rules, laws, standards, even expectations.
Those of us performing the jobs that Americans supposedly will not do never asked for hand-outs or give-aways or loans.
All we pleaded for was the removal of those law-breakers who entered the USA illegally by the millions and upset the supply/demand equation of labor, housing etc. that caused us so much economic harm.
If you, the reader, wants to do some basic research via the Web there is ample evidence the powered/monied elite ignored our plight along with many of those higher-up the socio-economic pyramid AND that many unions leaders actually encouraged the invasion and tried to recruit illegal entrants into unions.
Do not expect much sympathy for anything to do with the Big 3 or any entity/group/whatever above the working-poor citizen class from those of us who have been stepped upon, spat upon and shoved face downwards into the economic mire of a near-2nd-world life-style caused by competing with a multi-million horde of competitors who should never have been present to compete with us economically and socially.
Proclaim it to be “class envy” if you desire, as so many “right wing conservative” pundits do or label us as xenophobic bigoted racist non-diversity-loving yokels as so many left-wing liberal spewers of that groups rhetoric does but to us at the bottom of the economic pile what we have experienced is too akin to class warfare against us to have much pity for those who have only recently faced economic woes those of us at the bottom of the socio-economic pile have faced for decades.
I don’t particularly care who has $100 million dollars or who buys what. Still I’m very interested in human behavior at the same time. I’ve noticed people have a lot of cloudiness. Why are people so greedy, unreasonable, and stubborn. Shame I’ve noticed in at the center of the whole thing. Shame of not having success ie. worth ie. being loved. All sides have this problem. Confusion about who we are and how to have a healthy relationship with who we are the cause of most every problem we face. We are dealing just with the symptoms of the shame, rather than the shame itself. It does not work.
This is not about who deserves what. Everyone deserves an easy life, nice cars, and lots of money. Else we wouldn’t let people inherit anything. This is about wanting to keep or have things we need and/or care for. A lot of distortion about what is appropriate and what is not is being put out there. We all have different but good reasons why we are worth getting help and such. That’s natural. Its important to discern what our values are and what we can and cannot change/do. We need to make decisions that reflect our values and opportunities. And accept what we can and cannot do.
forraymond:
I truly respect the time (42 years) your dad put in with GM. Clearly your dad was a long-time, seemingly faithful employee that rightfully should be compensated for his loyalty. Esspecially since GM is contractually obligated to him. With that said, I didn’t sign a contract with GM saying I would cover pensions if GM couldn’t. So why am I on the hook?
Additionally, I still find the UAW’s attitude on things quite maddening.
Example:
I’m a recruiter for the state agency that I work for. Recently, on a recruiting mission, I went in to a nearby a UAW local headquaters, located across the street from a Ford plant. My intention was to educate the UAW membership about careers with the state, should they be displaced, um fired, which is entirely possible! Long story short, the Grand-Pubah wouldn’t see me and didn’t returm my call. It became clear to me that the UAW leadership at that location did not have his memberships best interests at heart.
Most of these arguments are fallacious or invalid. It starts with an ad hominem attack on people who are not members of the UAW, but still have an opinion on what is going on. Given the UAW’s meddling in our country’s democratic process, he should understand that we all have a right to an opinion on UAW matters.
The part about civil workers and taxes is a non-sequiter. It’s also unrelated. And just wrong in many ways.
The part about the economy is actually not at issue unless he thinks that just because there is a bad economy, we should bail out the auto industry. If that’s his point, he really doesn’t make it, or support it though.
Skip down to “I pay taxes…” The correct answer to this bit is for everyone to ask where the bail out for their own company is. While I have been happy to point out the ills of the government regulation on Detroit, how about my aviation businesses being bailed out? The government is pretty much burying us right now.
The Wall St. red herring is also thrown in. Wall St. wasn’t bailed out because they deserved it. Nor will anyone be bailed out due to the amount of taxes they have paid (quite the opposite really). I pay more taxes than this guy does when I have NO income, once again, where is my bailout?
More unrelated stuff follows, but the real capper comes at the end. Having the opportunity to reap what they have sown, the UAW folks think we would all be better off if we had just joined unions! Well, seems to have worked well enough for them. At least until now.
It seems that everyone who wants auto bailouts points to the bank bailouts. First of all, I don’t think there is a person on here that doesn’t support auto bailouts, but would approve of bank bailouts. This is a car site, and as such the auto industry is covered.
Yes Toyota built Tundras and Sequoias, and lost money on them. At the same time they were building Yarises, Corollas, and Camrys. Honda may have built Pilots and Ridgelines, but also built Fits, Civics, and Accords. GM built Silverados and Suburbans, and then sold Cobalts, Auras, and G6s. To try to put the imports in the same category is ridicules.
Going back to the UAW, how about the $20+/hour janitors, or workers that would bunch in and go across the street to the bar, only to return to punch out. A bar at a Ford plant, on my drive to work, was packed when it was open, until the workforce at that plant was mostly let go. (Where is the bar owners bailout?) Is that your labor force at it’s best? The same labor force that is going to competitively build great cars, if only engineering would allow you to.
The truth is, the blame doesn’t go just to the UAW. It doesn’t go just to engineering. It doesn’t just go to the bean counters. And it doesn’t just go to the executives. The real problem is ALL OF THE ABOVE! Why should the government have to barrow or print money, so it can dump it into the roaring fire that is GM and Chrysler? This isn’t your tax money, or anybody’s who is reading this, but future generation’s money. I don’t understand why anyone feels entitled to get money from someone else.
The property owners (shareholders) have no RIGHT to fire them…It is like inviting someone into your home and then not having the RIGHT to make them leave.
And you wonder why D3 failed? Wow!
It is not a Democracy…The OWNERS call the shots!
Don’t like it? LEAVE! The job you work is not OWNED by you.
If a man does not like his job, he finds another one…If he can’t find one he likes, he starts his own job/business…He doesn’t threaten his employer – The OWNER of the job. Why is this so difficult for “Unionized” people to realize?
Those two Locals, or any others, have the RIGHT to say YES OR NO, just like you could vote for McCain or Obama! You have no say in that any more than I DO if you let your Police,Fire, and Teachers lose their jobs because you don’t wanna pay more in taxes
True enough. But those public service jobs are government jobs, and taxes are paid to them for a reason. Funny that he compares his job to other jobs that are paid for by taxpayers, as though it is the job of taxpayers to shut up and pay all of them.
But his is only the voice of unions. The job of union leaders is first to instill upon membership an us-vs-them mentality, such that members feel that if not for unions they would be dead slaves.
Then the unions depict to their members a public that is hostile, petty, uncaring, and downright evil. This inspires the membership to loud and vocal shouting for their own ‘rights’ as though they were an oppressed minority, and for the public to shut up and pay up, as though they are evil simon legrees. All during the time that the membership is paid artificially high raises and enjoys absurdly high benefits compared to the public at large, while limiting the number of other workers able to do so.
Oh, wait, I was talking about the UAW. For a second I thought I was talking about teachers unions.
The amazing range of opinions on this site always makes a good read.
As a worker (former?) at a big 2.8 assembly plant, I can feel the stress from the economy first hand. To generalize about “unionized” workers as not able to understand the situation is blatantly unfair.
In my 20 years in this job i’ve been told to work harder and faster, and be perfect or my job will be “outsourced” to cheaper labour in other countries.
At the same time, my employer was diligently eliminating as many workers as possible, so that I had no job security at all, anyway. The workforce at my plant was gradually cut to one third of what it was when I was first hired. At the same time my employer was building plants at a steady pace in, Mexico, Brazil, India, China, etc.
Taking the profits from the plant I work at to eliminate my job is the employers right, but to wave the flag at the public and say that the car makers are all about mom and apple pie is a lie.
All of these so-called American car makers would just love to shut every plant in the US and Canada, and import all the product to the dealers. Why would they want to employ middle class workers here when they can get thousands of $2.50/hour workers else-ware. This has been going on for many, many years.
Now I hear that the Fed has to help out these
corporations to “save our jobs”. These corporations must survive, why? So they can continue to shrink their workforce in the US and Canada? So that they can continue to expand in the 2nd and 3rd world nations?
The billions of dollars going to these global corporations could be better spent on healthcare to help out the employers who really want to be here and employ workers here.
I don’t have a big problem with the UAW, working-level members. The gritty UAW is a perfect counterbalance to the greed, arrogance, and incompetence of the Big-3 management, in a tragic, amusement-spectacle sort of way. It’s sort of like a Tough Man contest, but where only family members get to fight each other.
The stupid, industry-killing deeds by the UAW leaders (restrictive job duties, mismatched pay for multi-skilled jobs, jobs bank, etc.) are all matched/exceeded by the stupid, industry-killing deeds of Big-3 executives (poor product decisions, poor investment decisions, poor business decisions). There is little doubt that all this in-fighting has cost them (and the United States) dearly.
USLuxuryman
You UAW guys shouldn’t expect a lot of sympathy.
Before I go further, let me preface my remarks by saying that I am:
1) Pro bailout.
2) Pro union.
Now then-
You UAW guys not only earn way more than the average worker, you earn way more than the average union worker.
Millions of people are working hard for less than half -in some cases less than 1/3- what you guys are making. So don’t expect anyone to cry for you when you have to make concessions. (I should make such concessions)
Should other workers unionize? Of course they should. But that doesn’t change the fact that Unions havn’t tried hard enough -until relatively recently- to get better wages/benefits for more workers. Instead they’ve concentrated on better wages and benefits for those who already have handsome wages and gold-plated benefits.
Much anti-unionism is rooted in jealousy. Jealousy is a real and powerful emotion. You can’t just say “don’t be jealous” and expect it to stick. You guys have wage level and benefit package that most workers don’t even dare to dream of. It’s not too suprising that most other workers don’t have any sympathy for you. Take your concessions – you’ll still be doing better than the rest of us.
Yes, the locals have the right to vote no. Don’t expect anyone to come to their defense and claim the UAW members are being treated unfairly.
You don’t need to tell me that labor is only 10% of the cost of building a car and it’s not the UAW that is ruining the domestic auto industry. I know all that. I’m not against you. I don’t rub my hands with glee at the thought of the demise of the UAW. Neither do I have much sympathy for UAW members who vote no on concessions. I don’t care if you’ve already had a hair cut -hell, it was just a trim. You’re hair is still a lot longer than that of most other workers.
As your comment points out, the big problem is not making concessions, the big problem is that there are half as many UAW members now as there were 10 years ago. You guys need to quit worrying about concessions and figure out whether or not there is anything the UAW can do to help the D3 grow.
The D3 are in a downward spiral, and it didn’t start with $4 gas. At the rate things are going, there won’t be any UAW jobs in another 5 years. How’s that for a haircut?
Take the concessions. Vote yes. Oh, and get someone from the Union on the board of bystanders.
I always love stories by auto workers that complain how hard and monotonous of a job that they have. If it’s so terrible then why not quit and find a job someplace else ?. If they could see that management was cutting unionized jobs and outsourcing everything overseas why didn’t they go to college or a trade school and try to find a job in a more stable field ?.
If the Big 3 sink like the Titanic am I supposed to feel sorry for the union workers who didn’t get off the ship while they knew it was sinking ?.
@I agree with your point.I wasn’t goin to stay at GM for long, the work sucked.It was hot dirty,boring and mind destroying.The money and the benifits were addictive.If only I had a crsytal ball.If only I knew what I know now!
Hey it don’t work that way eh!
@USLuxuryman At last an insider with the writing skills that I lack.Welcome aboard brother or maybe sister.
I can understand USLuxuryman’s frustration. The Big 3 and all the rest built what people wanted to buy for the last 20 years, then got caught when the needs of the consumers changed overnight. The problem is is that the imports kept pace with people’s wants and needs in the car market as well, while the Big 3 let their reputation tarnish, so when the market changed, they had nothing people wanted to buy.
As for concessions, in non-unionized businesses, when times are tough, management unilaterally cuts hours, wages, benefits, PTO time etc. It is only reasonable that for businesses taking government money, we expect some concessions. I would like to see concessions by the UAW that allow them to reap the rewards when the economy rebounds, maybe stock in lieu of cash.
This whole economic mess is the result of American greed. We outsourced to save a few pennies, hired illegals, spend beyond our means personally, corporately and in government. Now we wonder what to do after 30 years of paying out more than we take in when we can’t scrape 2 pennies together. We need to restart manufacturing in this country and get the balance of trade turned back to our favor. Only when we have a net trade surplus can we pay for all the stuff we already bought.
I’m not sure where to begin on this one; there is just so much delusion here. Just assuming that everything this guys is saying is correct, all that I see is for the amount of input the average UAW worker doesn’t have in the design and build quality of a domestic automobile, they are WAY over paid. $250/week in taxes tells me this guy is raking in a good salary for nutting and bolting cars. Enjoy it while it lasts.
At first I was going to write one thing, but I’m changing tack this time.
Dear TTAC,
I have been a UAW assembly-line worker for the past 35 years.
And now feel like it’s time that at least 1 person stand up and demonstrate actual accountability for something.
It is definitely too little, too late; but here goes.
I apologize to the American People for my sins, the sins of my union leaders and the sins of Detroit management; or at the Very least, my part in it.
To be honest, I have been complicit in bad business practices for the past 35 years. If I could give some of the money back, I would.
In every way, for my tenure and in retirement, I have been wildly overcompensated for my work in both straight salary and the benefits portion. It has been disproportionate to the actual value I created.
The few times I stopped to look at rates for unskilled, semi-skilled, or basic-skilled labor across the country, I did actually wonder HOW I could possibly be paid so much in comparison to others who had no college degree and hadn’t finished high-school.
But most of the time, I fell into the group mentality of treating the money and work like a state-sponsored entitlement instead of a free-market service I was performing as a hired contractor for a client.
As much as it counts, I voted Hell Yes every time the union wanted to suck more money out of the companies in one way or another.
I may not be a Decisionmaker, but I aided and abetted their decisions. I Stayed. I did my part to keep the status quo.
And now that status quo is stuck in a place where nobody will budge, and nobody will win. And if it can’t change, it’s got to die. I can’t think of anyone who has run a worse business.
You can’t shift any of the blame with outlandish examples or deny any of it. All of us made bad decisions, and I cast my Lot in with those people.
I guess it’s terrible recessions like this that can have a way of making a lot of things very very clear. And now it’s time to pay the piper.
Mea Culpa.
PS: I’d do the same work for fair market rate and the same 401k+Medicare as everyone if it would help keep the company in business so I could have a job at all. Maybe I’ll find a Hyundai plant or something.
To frame the issue of the UAW’s “right” to whatever they negotiated with their employer, consider the scene from The Road Warrior, where Max returns a wounded member of the gas-pumping clan in exchange for a promise of gas.
“We had a deal,” Max tells the leader, pointing to the clan member he’d rescued from the Wasteland.
“Your deal died with him,” the leader replies, pointing to the fresh corpse.
The Detroit 3 and the UAW have been locked in this Mutually Assured Destruction scenario for decades: incompetent management butting heads with the intransigent union’s ability to bring a manufacturer to its knees with a strike order. Sadly, the two combatants are now left to claw each other’s eyeballs out over what is now reduced to a wasteland.
So, what about those of us who lived within our means? saving for the future while paying our conforming fixed-rate mortgages on time? who bought economical & affordable cars, without loose credit? and who thought that SUV’s were were but a fashion statement and refused to buy in?
Our reward is: bailout!
“Doubts about GM’s future were heightened on Thursday when the company acknowledged in a regulatory filing that it might not be able to avoid bankruptcy even with more government support.” (The Financial times)
Forget the long winded ideological speeches, The big three are going down fast. The “give-backs” being asked of UAW workers are minor (no COLA, Jobs Bank being moved into an enhanced sub-pay plan, overtime after 40hrs, etc). Most people (other taxpayers) view these new modifications as a very generous benefit package if it was offered to them on a new job.(see 750 people line-up for one janitor job in Ohio)
The more the UAW workers keep posting about what they are entitled, the more public support they lose. They are killing themselves with their own PR.
Bottom line; when a companies own employees can’t find it within themselves to take a hit for their own employers to stay viable, then they are done!
Detroit X: “The stupid, industry-killing deeds by the UAW leaders (restrictive job duties, mismatched pay for multi-skilled jobs, jobs bank, etc.) are all matched/exceeded by the stupid, industry-killing deeds of Big-3 executives (poor product decisions, poor investment decisions, poor business decisions). There is little doubt that all this in-fighting has cost them (and the United States) dearly.”
That is why I said it is everyone, the UAW, engineering, bean counters, and the executives who are at fault. It’s not just one of those, but all.
dwford: “This whole economic mess is the result of American greed. We outsourced to save a few pennies, hired illegals, spend beyond our means personally, corporately and in government. Now we wonder what to do after 30 years of paying out more than we take in when we can’t scrape 2 pennies together. We need to restart manufacturing in this country and get the balance of trade turned back to our favor. Only when we have a net trade surplus can we pay for all the stuff we already bought.”
Very true. This overspending on everyone’s part is the reason the economy is tanking like it is.
willman, at least one union worker gets it. This is coming from a union worker who is one the inside, and not an “outsider” like me who can’t see all the “concessions” they have made.
Robert Farago :
March 8th, 2009 at 9:47 am
To frame the issue of the UAW’s “right” to whatever they negotiated with their employer, consider the scene from The Road Warrior, where Max returns a wounded member of the gas-pumping clan in exchange for a promise of gas.
“We had a deal,” Max tells the leader, pointing to the clan member he’d rescued from the Wasteland.
“Your deal died with him,” the leader replies, pointing to the fresh corpse.
Much the way they used blowers and huge engines to burn up the last of the gasoline even quicker, so goes the UAW!
(were did they keep getting the Nitrous Oxide?)
We take direction from Management, just like most of you do on your jobs.
Actually, I work with management in my career, and not as a person simply “doing a job” because someone told me to do it. My future employment is as much my responsibility as that of my employer, and it’s in my best long-term interest to ensure that we both get the maximum return on our investments.
Most successful people and companies have learned by now that there is a benefit to working together toward a common, mutually beneficial goal. Sure, you can be cynical all you want to, but things work a lot better when you realize that not everyone has the goal of screwing you over.
For the D2.8 gotta die crowd… What’s going to happen when all those UAW workers suddenly can’t pay their mortgages, car notes, and credit card payments? Yep, they will declare bankruptcy themselves, furthering the bank spiral due to more toxic loans. They will collect unemployment for several months and since they are no longer spending their over priced wages, other industries and their workers will suffer. And we haven’t even begun to cover the hundreds of thousands of supplier jobs too. As the D3 go bankrupt, the supplier companies on razor thin margins will suddenly be boned the money they are owed, and their own bankruptcy’s will further cascade through the economy.
This is an extremely difficult issue, because bankruptcy is going to cost the economy far far more money then the money the govt is currently pouring into the D3… BUT, where does it end and will they end up as a viable business in the end? I don’t believe they will. Also as they go bankrupt and wages come down in response to an over abundance of workers chasing fewer and fewer jobs, it will lower the wages across the entire country and all industries.
We are setting ourselves up for a total economic meltdown with wage deflation and hyper cost inflation from the printing presses running OT for bailouts. As wages go down and people spend less money, the feds will collect much less revenue, to pay off a ridiculously high debt level.
I seriously don’t know the answer, but bankruptcy will exasperate the current situation. Current method of printing money isn’t going to fix it either.
I wonder what percentage of people here would agree with the proposition that funds supposedly destined for retirement use should be removed from the control of the companies. I’m talking about both annuity and medical funds to be paid to employees after they retire. As it stands now, this money, many billions in the case of the 2.8, goes into a private piggy bank controlled by the company execs. (Of course they see to it that their own retirement money is nowhere near the bucket used for the retirement of the unwashed.) It’s common to put a large percentage in the stock of the company in question. This is 180 out of sync with generally accepted advice to diversify one’s investments. Also, the adequacy of the retirement account is subject to interpretation and manipulation by company execs in their ‘estimates’ of rate of return. So in today’s circumstances where people are buying US bonds at slightly over 0% return, a retirement fund might be projecting an 8% return which would permit them to underfund the retirement account.
I think a lot of the fear felt by workers concerns their retirement. We could fix that by legislation, and who would object? The corporations would object since such a change would put an end to their dishonesty in this area.
I wonder what percentage of people here would agree with the proposition that funds supposedly destined for retirement use should be removed from the control of the companies. I’m talking about both annuity and medical funds to be paid to employees after they retire.
I think that those employees should receive Social Security and Medicare, just like countless others who have seen their 401(k)s “evaporate” because they were invested in the stock of their now-defunct employers.
The introduction to this article was nearly spot on: “it’s important for all of us to understand the fears, frustrations and general motivations of the workers at the sharp end.” That’s where the motivation for many in the UAW is coming from: fear and frustration – they may lose their jobs which means they may lose their ability to support loved ones, provide healthcare for them when they’re sick and lose their home. That sucks. They see corporations getting millions/billions/tens of billions of dollars and figure ‘why not us?’ It feels like their entire world is being turned upside down and all the years of hard work was for nothing. They have my sympathies.
That being said…
@Landcrusher, @MBella, @dwford – Well said.
Under capitalism, the weak fail and the strong survive and become healthier. What’s needed in the auto industry is for the weakest link to fail, in this case General Motors, take its capacity out of the market, and now everyone else is healthy.
Our UAW friend should keep well in mind that GM is on the verge of collapse. Only by doing whatever is necessary to save GM will the public support sending tens of billions of dollars to save a company that by all other measures should be dead. Unfortunately all we hear from the UAW is the me first attitude that got GM in trouble in the first place.
@Richard Chen
So, what about those of us who lived within our means? saving for the future while paying our conforming fixed-rate mortgages on time? who bought economical & affordable cars, without loose credit? and who thought that SUV’s were were but a fashion statement and refused to buy in?
Our reward is: bailout!
This just goes to show you ain’t Catholic. Catholics have a saying for just this situation: The just always pay for the sinners.
Cheers!
USLuxuryman can exonerate the domestic automakers if it makes him feel better, but rationalizations, excuses and wishful thinking do not alter the fact they have been losing market share for 50-years, long before SUVs and the latest financial meltdown.
Toyota and GM each sell about 4-million cars annually. GM loses $1,800 on every one, Toyota makes a $4,000 profit on each. Why?
Decades of inept management, rapacious unions, horrible products, and immoral business practices killed the Detroit-3. A steady stream of terrible vehicles that paled in terms of quality, reliability, durability, desirability, satisfaction, and value for money relative to Asian and German competitors squandered consumer goodwill. Embittered by appalling product quality and unforgivable customer relations tens of millions of potential buyers, an entire generation, permanently deleted domestic brands from consideration. They are not coming back any time soon!
@ RF,
And you can’t trust the deals from Humongous either.
Sorry. UAW workers have priced themselves out of jobs. It’s not just pay – it’s work rules, generous pensions, sick leave… Benefits unavailable to most US workers with far more skills.
A Toyota engine plant in Buffalo, West Virginia, pays about $20/hour for line workers and about 40 percent more for skilled trades. Their pension is a 401K. They have no “jobs bank”.
That’s a damn good wage for the area. That’s who the UAW is competing with.
I live in a UAW (Buffalo, NY) area. I work with ex-UAW workers who won’t go back BECAUSE of the idiotic work rules that make the workplace poisonous.
Of course, currently, the UAW has the gun of political power to take from the taxpayer. Just don’t lose that power.
@Brabski
Under capitalism, the weak fail and the strong survive and become healthier. What’s needed in the auto industry is for the weakest link to fail, in this case General Motors, take its capacity out of the market, and now everyone else is healthy.
Unfortunately Chrysler is far far weaker then GM. They are putting on a facade of sustainability.
ihatetrees: “I live in a UAW (Buffalo, NY) area. I work with ex-UAW workers who won’t go back BECAUSE of the idiotic work rules that make the workplace poisonous.”
My father used to work for Chrysler as a machinery repair man. He was working on a saw. When he got it going, it was wobbling around, because it didn’t have a good footing. He grabbed a piece of wood, took it to a band saw, and made a wedge. He shoved it under the wobbling saw and it settled down. The union rep went up to him, and said you can’t work on two machines at once. The broken saw was fully automatic mind you, and he was just servicing it. What the correct, UAW approved procedure would have been, was to stop the first machine, go cut the wood, then go back to the original, shove the wedge in there, and then turn it back on. The union rep also had an issue with him sweeping up his work area because he wasn’t a janitor.
Hey Mikey, don’t rank down your writing skills. You have a terse, straightforward way of writing that always gets your point across.
I may be wrong, but isn’t that a photo of a Chrysler Sebring going down the line.
Need anymore to be said about the future, when cars like that actually are approve for manufacture?
I suspect part of the problem here is one of union culture, not unions per se.
As I’ve said before, I’m a union member, under IATSE, Motion Picture Editors Guild, local 700. A very, very far cry from autobuilding I know.
Some thoughts:
There are those of us in Hollywood who are above the line, and those of us below the line. Editors, grips, electricians, gaffers, craft services, props, set builders, drivers, movers: these are below the line. Labor. Writers, directors, actors: these are above the line. And the differences in attitude and assumptions are telling. It’s almost always the above the line unions that strike, and subsequently hold the industry hostage, and put out of work all the overhead staff and below the line workers: witness recent WGA strikes, the threatened DGA strike, and still-possible SAG strike (not AFTRA however). These above the line strikes close productions, postpone or cancel whole seasons, and generally make life hard for people who rely on stable work in a perpetually unstable industry (sorry, you UAW people with your single jobs you can count in decades have NO IDEA what it’s like to have the axe of layoff hovering over you on a monthly basis–for your entire career. We don’t complain. You seem to feel you have the right to. I digress).
If the UAW were magically in Hollywood, the UAW would be below the line. Way below the line.
The problem is, the UAW acts like it’s above the line.
And that’s a cultural problem. A problem of assumptions and attitudes. You UAW guys act like you’re entitled. Like your employer owes you for more than just your labor value. You guys act like writers and directors and actors. You guys act like people who write TV shows who make millions of dollars are year. Who are–for better or worse–adding value to the economy and creating jobs. As much as a lot of writers and actors are terrible, insufferable jackasses who work under delusions of grandeur, they earn their money by contributing to the creation of economies and jobs. As a result, in the big picture, most below the line people don’t begrudge them their astronomical salaries and residuals.
You guys are hired labor, making cars. Like me, cutting movies. I’d suggest the UAW begin to act a little more in accordance with its station in life. Know where you are and live accordingly. In other words, culturally speaking, stop trying to live beyond your means.
Oh, and please: $28 an hour average industry-wide wage? In Michigan? Ohio? You’re doing well. I know a lot of people here in Los Angeles, where the cost of living dwarfs Lansing or Lima or whatever, who make less than $20. And they’ve got families too.
Sorry for the rant. From one “brother” to another, and sister, stop complaining, and be glad you’re working at all, because a lot of people I know are not (which, incidentally, includes friends on Hollywood Blvd, and friends on Wall Street, one of the latter of whom is staying with us right now since Citi laid him off).
I sympathize with you sir (or madam) on the possibility of losing your job. It sucks, I know.
That being said, it’s time you joined the real world like everyone else. If you’re incompetent at your job, you don’t deserve it.
My father worked for GM for 30+ years on the salaried/management side. For several of those years, he was in charge of UAW workers who were tenacious in their lack of good work ethic. Two guys were caught one summer clocking in and leaving to shop while having their buddies clock them out. They were fired for good reason. However, and I think you see this coming, they complained to their union rep and were given their jobs back.
That is why people, in general, don’t like the UAW and why I’m anti-union. Unions kowtow to the lowest common denominator and allow people who are incompetent/lazy/spiteful to have a job they don’t deserve. Get rid of the bad apples and get people in charge who don’t speak in absolutes and will work with management for the betterment of the company.
As BuzzDog said, it’s better to work with management rather than blindly do what they say. I’m a lowly intern at an engineering firm, yet I’m constantly engaged by people who only have the owner as a boss who ask me what they can do to make my job better.
This is all interesting. First, I believe the economic situation is completely the fault of two groups: the government (specifically the SEC that didn’t really exist the last 3 years) and the people (not all people – but the people who were stupid enough to actually get mortgages believing their house would always appreciate – that’s stupid. I don’t believe in predatory lending, just people stupid enough to fall for bad deals). I guess I should say it is far more complex than that – but there are two major sources…
But now to the point: the UAW is scared that everything they’ve worked for will be lost. And you know what, they should be.
They aren’t the only ones, mind you. There were 650,000 net separations in February alone. How do you think those people felt? Some of those people had worked at companies a long time – their skill set was tied to their work. They now will probably lose their houses, their own retirement hopes are in shambles thanks to a 55% decline in the market – and that retirement money was meant to cover both their income and health care.
There was a rant on the BlueOval board, and I’ve seen some comments on the GMInsiders board from UAW members justifying why they turned down contracts or why they would resist. The one on BOF I won’t repeat in its entirety, but it basically said: “we were ready to separate, but the amount of money and services you’re now offering us isn’t good enough.” You know – I can only hope that when my company lays me off I will get $25,000 and a new car out of it.
And I suppose we can talk contracts and promises, but the reality is a contract will have zero validity when GM liquidates (I think as RF was pointing out above). I’m not suggesting a course of action or harping on the UAW – just pointing out a fact of life.
It seems that while some parties within the auto industry are waking up to the reality that things are different now (UAW management…), others still haven’t realized that you can’t expect your livelihood to be spared when millions around you are losing everything they have too. Pragmatism or death. There really aren’t any other options at this point for the Big 3 or UAW. But I assure everyone it will be a mutually driven death.
The UAW can hold strong and vote against any more concessions. Back in 1989, a union was facing similar demands of concessions from their employer. But they held strong, refused the concession demands, went out on strike, stayed out on strike, and stood together.
Of course, their employer, Eastern Air Lines, went bankrupt and they all lost their jobs and pensions. But what they heck, they proved their point. Right?
I have to say I just don’t have much sympathy for these union guys.
When you have absurd, restrictive work rules that won’t let you move a guy from one part of the factory to another, that restricts the flexibility of the company to get things done, that does not make any sense.
When management can’t get rid of a guy who is a screw up, because the union won’t let you, that is just wrong, pure and simple.
And we all know what a joke the “jobs bank” is. How dare they even ask for such a ridiculous thing?
You know you union guys really should work on your image: you come across either as petulant whiners or as churlish lazy louts with a chip on your shoulder.
Yes you have the right to vote no on your new contract. And the rest of us have the right not to bail your butts out. If you wind up without a job that is your problem.
It is hard for me to feel any sympathy for you guys when you make so much more than I do. Welcome to the real world.
And BTW, I work at UPS and am a member of the Teamsters myself.
Frankly, I think the unions failing will be good for America, because they are a subsidiary of the democratic party, giving them millions of dollars. (In spite of the fact that 40% of the union members are republicans.) It really frosts me when I think of the union giving my money to democrats that I can’t stand. Putting a stop to that will help to elect a more conservative class of politicians.
I’ve got an idea, let’s take the billions we might send to GM and Chrysler and use them instead to fund a VEBA and pension fund for retirees. Then the big 3 can stand or fall on their own, and they will not have the excuse of having to pay legacy costs. Their current costs will be pretty similar to other US manufacturers. You know we’re going to wind up paying for the health care and pensions when they go bust anyway.
1169hp :
March 8th, 2009 at 3:10 am
Example:
I’m a recruiter for the state agency that I work for. Recently, on a recruiting mission, I went in to a nearby a UAW local headquaters, located across the street from a Ford plant. My intention was to educate the UAW membership about careers with the state, should they be displaced, um fired, which is entirely possible! Long story short, the Grand-Pubah wouldn’t see me and didn’t returm my call. It became clear to me that the UAW leadership at that location did not have his memberships best interests at heart.
1169hp, if your still reading this thread, how can someone find more about what your recruiting for?
I’m an unemployed engineer… if the UAW wont work for you, I will!
Hand me a shovel and point me to the hole.
U.S. assemblers will be replaced by Mexican assemblers.
Mexican assemblers will be replaced by Chinese assemblers.
Chinese assemblers will be replaced by robotic assemblers.
Robotic assemblers will be programmed by U.S. former assemblers, if they choose to re-tool themselves.
If not, see above.
New automated assembly lines will be able to react to changing vehicle demographics in 1 day.
The home-grown American automobile industry is on its death bed. The money that ChryCo & GM have gotten so far from Uncle Sam is kinda’ like that last drag on a cigarette given to a mortally wounded GI in an old propaganda film. It won’t do him any good, but you give it to him anyhow because how can you deny such a gesture to a dying man (at least to his face)? But now some senior Senate Republicans are saying out loud that it’s stick a fork in it time for GM. Chrysler is just a footnote by comparison. This unfortunate Chrysler worker is in the second of Kubler-Ross’ five stages of grief. He’s angry. But nothing any of us can think of or say is going to change the situation. How one or another union Local votes is irrelevant. It’s time to move on. Graves detail will be thru to bag the remains.
Fair enough, it’s a democratic process.
They can vote for whatever they want. We can vote for representatives that refuse bail outs and are for a CH11 BK, and vote the ones that support this out of office.
Never mind that the whole argument is a straw man. Obviously I don’t care if actors demand raises, because they are not paid with taxpayers money.
As long as the UAW negotiates with GM and there is zero taxpayer support, knock yourselves out.
We still vote though, in the case of the actors by watching second hand discs and in the case of the UAW by refusing to purchase 2.x cars.
The poster wants it both ways, he wants the freedom to vote whatever way he wants, but he wants to prevent the free vote of the people on the other side of the table. And he wants taxpayer handouts to stretch his protected status another day.
Quote: mel23 :
March 8th, 2009 at 11:02 am
“I wonder what percentage of people here would agree with the proposition that funds supposedly destined for retirement use should be removed from the control of the companies. I’m talking about both annuity and medical funds to be paid to employees after they retire. As it stands now, this money, many billions in the case of the 2.8, goes into a private piggy bank controlled by the company execs. (Of course they see to it that their own retirement money is nowhere near the bucket used for the retirement of the unwashed.) It’s common to put a large percentage in the stock of the company in question. This is 180 out of sync with generally accepted advice to diversify one’s investments. Also, the adequacy of the retirement account is subject to interpretation and manipulation by company execs in their ‘estimates’ of rate of return. So in today’s circumstances where people are buying US bonds at slightly over 0% return, a retirement fund might be projecting an 8% return which would permit them to underfund the retirement account.
I think a lot of the fear felt by workers concerns their retirement. We could fix that by legislation, and who would object? The corporations would object since such a change would put an end to their dishonesty in this area.”
Exactly right…if we had such rules in place 30+ years ago, the UAW wouldn’t be in such a perilous position, there wouldn’t be an un-funded VEBA, and the D3 would have had to come to grips with reality a long long time ago about wages, benefits and concessions and as such would hopefully not allowed all of this to come to head wherein no one is willing to blink on these issues…Everyone wants what was promised them and no one wants to give anything up…and I can’t blame them. I’m not a big fan of government controls on business practices, but when corporate officers and their respective union officers do not maintain an honest and forward-looking plan and accounting for retirement funds, some authority should have stepped in a long time ago to force organizations to honor their commitments and keep their promises. No I don’t want to pay taxes that go towards UAW benefits, but I also understand that we are talking about benefits the UAW rank and file have earned, been promised and should be honored. The right kind of legislation and authority as me123 discusses is right along the same lines of what I’d like to see too.
Similar to the Eastern Airlines story is the story of the union at RF’s favorite newspapers here in Detroit. The workers were getting good money for what they were doing. They wanted more, but the papers were not will to pay up. The union went on strike for a bit. Eventually they had to give up over half their pay, and some befits so that they could go back to work. The thing was most of the workers were happy with what they had, but their union leadership got greedy.
http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/labor-relations-labor-disputes/11567018-1.html
Stu said “if we had such rules in place 30+ years ago, the UAW wouldn’t be in such a perilous position, there wouldn’t be an un-funded VEBA, and the D3 would have had to come to grips with reality a long long time ago about wages, benefits and concessions and as such would hopefully not allowed all of this to come to head wherein no one is willing to blink on these issues…Everyone wants what was promised them and no one wants to give anything up…and I can’t blame them. I’m not a big fan of government controls on business practices, but when corporate officers and their respective union officers do not maintain an honest and forward-looking plan and accounting for retirement funds, some authority should have stepped in a long time ago to force organizations to honor their commitments and keep their promises.”
Interestingly, this DID happen after Studebaker closed in the US just before Christmas 1963. The Corporation had LEGALLY ‘borrowed’ monies from the promises made for retirement funds to the UAW and were ‘unable’ to pay them back, then closed down. Nobody went to jail.
This did change, though it took until about 1973 or so. Then the powerful powers-that-be slowly chipped away at these (quite fair and honorable) regulations until they were once again, useless.
They did, however, manage to stick the US taxpayers with the bill if / when unfunded pensions come about – or at least, some of it, I believe.
Fair play and honor work in all directions, as does the lack of same. The Detroit 2.8 and the UAW leadership deserve one another, as do some of the workforce. It’s the folks in the workforce who are relatively innocent who have my sympathy. I go to church with one such guy, who worked at a Tier 2 parts supplier. They’ve closed the plant. He essentially is about 50 years old and has virtually no prospects for a job now. His unemployment will run out, then what is he meant to do? He lives in Michigan.
What jobs are going to come in to make this state and nation productive again? Answer: they aren’t. Why not? One reason; this country, like California, is now so anti-business that no businessman in his or her right mind would want to do anything here. May as well just do what most of the others are doing; import stuff from cheap labor nations, sell to those folks in the US treating their houses like ATMs or to a government ‘conjuring’ money out of thin air, make obscene amounts of profits, rake it in, then just as the deck starts to get steep, grab the golden parachute, float down to the yacht and sail off to retirement in some hot tropical beach country. Well, isn’t that what’s been happening?
The idea that one owes one’s allegiance to other human beings, and one’s nation, is such a quaint little old idea, eh?
First, I think my new reaction to Godwin’s law will be to ignore the offender’s post, but to ignore the people who scream about it for good. Frankly, calling Godwin’s Law without supporting how the person using the word nazi or hitler is actually out of line is worse than the original offense.
In this case it was a GL violation because while a bail out is without a doubt a socialist move, it has nothing to do with nazism. Fascism perhaps, but not nazism. BTW, if you believe, like I do, that fascism is simply socialism hidden under a false venier of capitalism, then that is exactly what the present administration is going for. That is why they will not nationalize anything. They don’t want the blame for having to run it. They want to bleed it, bend it, regulate it, and force it, but they also want to be able to blame the evil capitalists for any failures.
As for the folks who claim that the soviet union wasn’t real marxism, they are correct. However, the result of trusting marxists to install real marxism is something akin to the soviet system everytime it’s tried.
Stu,
The union members were promised, but if the corporation and the union can’t pay, then what? This is simply the same as a bank giving a million dollar mortgage to a hamburger flipper to buy a half million dollar home. We shouldn’t make the bank whole, or the union member, or the people who send money to Nigerian princes hoping to quadruple their investment.
The government’s place is to throw the scoundrels who took the money into jail for longer than a year or two. It’s also government’s job to enforce civil judgements against those responsible. Government does poorly on both accounts.
Sutures:
“1169hp, if your still reading this thread, how can someone find more about what your recruiting for?
I’m an unemployed engineer… if the UAW wont work for you, I will!
Hand me a shovel and point me to the hole.”
Career change perhaps? Recruiting # 1-800-796-7000.
Leave your shovel at home and bring your driving gloves instead.
Fourteen paragraphs, thirteen of which end in an exlamation point.
To sum up his point (without the exlamation point), each voting member has the RIGHT to vote how they see fit. It’s called freedom of choice.
And I agree with him.
But where is my freedom of choice to donate (and that’s what it is, a donation. We’ll never see these LOANS repaid) see my hard earned dollars go to the “good cause” of saving any of the bigish 3?
Where is my obligation in the US Constitution to save a mis-managed company, no matter how many Americans incomes will be hurt by my inaction?
Same for those non-Americans. Where is their obligation? Where do they OWE an American business?
These companies since the beginning have had orgies in the profits. It is not the ants obligation to feed this grasshopper through the winter.
!
1169hp :
March 8th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Career change perhaps? Recruiting # 1-800-796-7000.
Leave your shovel at home and bring your driving gloves instead.
Ahh… Google is such a wonderful thing.
First, I stopped looking for a career a few years, I’d be happy with a job.
Second, unfortunately, even though I have no problems with the current opening shown (I like working with and helping people) on the website or the salary (anything would be better than unemployment), I doubt at that level there is any relocation provided… so I’m stuck in Michigan.
Thanks and good luck. I’ll keep that page for reference.
Sutures:
“Ahh… Google is such a wonderful thing.
First, I stopped looking for a career a few years, I’d be happy with a job.
Second, unfortunately, even though I have no problems with the current opening shown (I like working with and helping people) on the website or the salary (anything would be better than unemployment), I doubt at that level there is any relocation provided… so I’m stuck in Michigan.
Thanks and good luck. I’ll keep that page for reference.”
10-4. Hope you find something.
DT