TTAC’s own David Holzman writes:
I was struck when I did my old Beetle review by how much worse the steering and handling felt than I remembered. The ’67 Imperial also seemed a lot floaty-boatier than I would have expected. Thus, I found very interesting your implication [in the Piston Slap question about the Explorer] that ride could deteriorate badly in less than a decade. Are old car reviews doomed to vastly underrate the cars relative to how they drove when new—unless they’ve recently been overhauled?
Sajeev Replies:
Yes. Because getting old sucks. Even for cars.
After publishing the Explorer question on Piston Slap, I guess I shoulda asked for it’s mileage: shocks are wear items. When it comes to older or high mileage cars, the oil/gas in shocks either turns into maple syrup, or leaks out. Parts and labor are not cheap, and not essential to keep an older vehicle on the road. I talked owner of the 1996 Explorer I reviewed, mentioning the correlation between a terrible ride and 13 year old shocks. He’s less than thrilled with the idea, even though he hates the ride. So who in their right mind proactively replaces shocks on an old car?
Then there’s the metal. Springs become more ductile over time/mileage and begin to sag. Sway bars do the same, especially the hollow units on modern cars traveling salty roads. I’ve seen vacuum lines and gaskets go bad after 5 years of heat cycling. And rubber is the worst: it will dry out, crack, or get a (delicious) glazed coating with Father Time’s assistance and exposure to Mother Nature. And nothing kills a test drive easier than hard, dry rotted, or glazed tires that are several years old.
Tolerances in engines, transmissions, steering systems, etc. get sloppy with every passing year. A worn engine may perform better, but nobody likes extra play in their pinions, ball joints, or tie-rod ends. Point is, we must not judge a car’s historical impact by the condition of the used car we drove. In a perfect world, used cars offered as TTAC testers need to be fully reconditioned. Recently. And with a binder full of receipts for repair jobs.
And forget about testing a car that’s been restomoded with aftermarket upgrades, unless its a tuner car like a Lingenfelter Corvette ZR-1. Then it’s okay to cheat. Sort of.
The flip side is how much you can improve the ride and handling of a 10 or more year old vehicle with new shocks, bushings and replacement of any worn ball-joints and tie-rods! For a DIY person like myself, these typically are not very expensive repairs.
Personally, I do replace things on a regular basis, struts, springs, hoses, fluids, etc. My 11 year old S70 T5 looks and drives like new. That doesn’t mean it’s up to modern car standards, but the better you keep your car, the more likely you are to like it for the long haul. Is it a pain in the ass to replace your springs and struts? You betcha. Is it expensive to replace all your hoses & flush that coolant with distilled water when you refill? Sure, but if you plan on keeping that car past 250,000 (I’m at 260K now) then I think it will make the experience enjoyable rather than a sentence.
Mmmmmmm…maple syrup….(drool)
–Homer J.
Speaking of loose steering, If the car has a steering gearbox, the lash is adjustable. This can really firm up the steering, all by adjusting a simple set screw that is locked into place with a jam nut.
Nobody should tolerate loose tie-rods. It is not just a thing of the steering being sloppy, but a serious safety concern. If one breaks, you will loose all control of the car, and the car can go any which direction it chooses. Always replace your tie-rods. Sure it may cost you a couple hundred dollars to do, but is your life, and the life of your passengers not worth that?
My ranger’s rear end would hop in any which way because of the bad rear shock near the exhaust. It would pull into the other lane on occasion. The hole set of 4 shocks cost me $100, and it took about an hour to put them all in. Was it worth it on a worthless truck, yes. It made i stable and safe.
While I agree that timely replacement of worn parts is a good idea, I also think that nostalgia is blind — we tend to remember cars of the past as better than they really were. (This doesn’t apply to infamous lemon cars like the Vega.)
Ride, handling, safety, performance, braking, reliability, and fuel economy have all advanced so much in recent decades, which is why I bristle when today’s Camry is belittled when it would run rings around the ’67 Chevy Bel Air 6 in which I learned to drive.
It’s funny how many people forget that everything on a car wears out, be it by age or mileage. I have had multiple customers replace/rebuild an engine or transmission and then make comments to the effect of “it’s like brand new now”, when that simply isn’t the case. For one, everything made of plastic or rubber is going to deteriorate and need to be replaced. From suspension or body bushings to engine seals to hoses, it all gets dry and cracks at some point. Some of these can cause a check engine light, some can create worse problems. Then of course all of the things nobody thinks of wearing, like the shocks, springs, steering gear, engine mounts, and so on. People think changing the oil and maybe a “tune-up” is all that’s needed, and they never realize that every part on the car wears out. Great points, Sajeev.
David, absolutely ride, handling and related dynamic aspects deteriorate with age. I actually meant to point that out in your Beetle review. As MBella above said, the steering box on VW’s has to be adjusted regularly. When I owned Beetles, it was a routine job, and made a substantial difference.
Back then, folks replaced shocks more regularly, as they seemed to wear out faster than today. My old ’66 Ford pickup, which I use to haul stuff, shows all the signs of advanced age, and rides much worse than it did when I got it twenty years ago. And it was twenty years old then.
It is a fundamental problem with trying to review vintage cars. Very few will ever be in anything like new condition; even if some parts have been replaced, others, like suspension bushings, etc. may not have. I think anyone trying to “review” an older car has to put this aspect very much into consideration. And on top of that, who is going to really wring out an old car? So a gentle drive doesn’t really tell one much. Better to get out an old car magazine review and read that.
Call me crazy (wait, you already did), but I proactively replaced shocks on my last BMW. The day before my car was killed by an SUV, I literally had called Koni to ask about rebuild info for the shocks I had put on when the OEMs wore out. I’m glad I hadn’t just replaced the shocks. I would have been even more furious.
We had a ’92 Corolla for a few years (hand-me-down from my in-laws)… a passionless, soulless car but reliable. The struts were terrible. We replaced them all with somewhat firmer Monroe aftermarket struts; the difference in performance was amazing.
Still soulless, mind. But hugely better.
I don’t think you’ll very often see an older car in good enough condition that you can really consider it to be like a new car of its ilk would be like. There are just too many things to wear.
(Incidentally, we might still have the Corolla if it had had a manual gearbox. The automatics of the day were not good, and the 3-speed slushbox in this particular car was dreadful.)
No car is perfect, but some are much better than others. I research my buying choices and alternatives in Consumer Reports. It is authoritative and trustworthy. My experience corroborates CR’s red and black dot reliability index.
The average life of my cars has been around 8-years or 150,000-miles. Some well-built ones have gone twice that with only scheduled motor oil and coolant changes and wear item replacements. I have never had a transmission repair, preferring OEM fluid renewal at 25,000-mile intervals. Comprehensive factory corrosion protection keeps bodies rust-free longer. Air conditioners, electronics and silly things like window lifts and door locks are weak points.
The cars are serviced by a genuine mechanic at an independent shop. While the oil is draining it gets a quick check over, catching small cheap problems before they become big, ugly, expensive and perhaps dangerous. Regular customers do not incur an extra cost for this invaluable service.
One thing worth mentioning is that age alone can wear things out… it isn’t all a function of mileage.
Mrs. Lokki loves her 98 328i …. which she’s had since new… and which she’s driven 52K miles. She doesn’t ever want to give it up she says… and she doesn’t like my ‘ugly’ 2008 328i
She drives it every day but gently, and (obviously) not very far. She also has garage parking both at home and at work.
However, I’ve had to(well, perhaps not “had to” ) give it belts, hoses, tires, bushings, and shock mounts, change the brake fluid every two years, change the coolant every two years, flush the transmission, and change the shocks and struts.
Note: I was reproached on another site for suggesting that BMW’s might need shocks and struts around 75K miles. I was indignantly told that BMW shocks and struts are good for 100K miles. Okaaaaay….. But I sure noticed a difference when I replaced her 10 year old ones that only had about 50K on them.
I call her car ‘The Immaculata’ – it doesn’t even have any stone chips in the paint! But even with all this ‘preventative’ maintenance, I really wouldn’t say that the car is as good as new or handles as well.
FWIW, my first ’68 912 had 255,000 miles on it when I sold it three years go, and it drove and looked like it was nearly from the factory. The key was absolutely faithful 3,000 mile services, including valve adjustments, and prompt attention paid to wearing parts before they gave up: bushings, tie rods, ball joints, couplings, etc., were always tight, shocks/clutch/master cylinder were replaced when necessary, and the car was always garaged, although I would hasten to add that the car was also not babied, and was certainly not a garage queen. It was a real driver, my daily driver for years, and got driven hard.
Also, I should add that while skilled DIY is great, there are times when you really are just too busy with work and family, and it’s then that a really good, independent, trustworthy mechanic who knows your car type is gold. They’re out there–the ones who CAN be trusted to do your oil change correctly, and WILL know how to correctly fix whatever is wrong with your car.
Sure, but how does that explain the numb, floaty, loose steering on the brand new 2000 Ford Explorer I was given as a rental car that year?
–chuck
After market electronic ignition, new shocks and radials made my 63 Valiant a vastly better car: instant start up,a better ride than many cars far more modern and a really solid grip on the road.
Otherwise it’s basic and primitive, a driver from the 30’s could have been teleported to 1963 and known how to drive it.
chuckgoolsbee : Sure, but how does that explain the numb, floaty, loose steering on the brand new 2000 Ford Explorer I was given as a rental car that year?
I think that’s an easy answer: rental cars get abused, and many of us TTAC folks think the latest steering systems on pickups are terrible…forget about a 2000 Explorer sitting on 75 series tires.
It sure would be interesting to see how much handling improvement comes from modern tires. DweezilSFV’s 63 Valiant on Michelin Pilots versus Farago’s Boxster on 78 series bias belted tires….
Sajeev’s analysis is spot on but in the case of the Explorer no explanation is necessary. So much in fact that I have to wonder why we are looking for a reason to explain why we find mid nineties Explores substandard. Here is a hint: It sucked back in 1996 and then continued on sucking for every single day of its working life. Maybe the relative suckage factor increased with age but that’s a mostly academic question considering the staggering magnitude of mediocrity involved.
It’s funny that this is a topic on TTAC today. As I was driving my 105,000 mile 2003 Chevy Silverado this morning, I was thinking how it did not drive nearly as nicely as it did when it was new. I was thinking it is time for new shocks. Years of use and towing has taken its toll on the old bucket.
Regarding the issue of the influence of memory and nostalgia, memory does tend to make the past look better than it seemed at the time. This has been shown scientifically. And I can vouch for the fact that I was very homesick during most of 7th grade, the year we spent in France, and yet, when I conjure up specific memories of that year, they are almost always good to magical. I can smell the new car smell of the Peugeot, hear the healthy transmission whine, feel the cobblestones of Paris beneath the Michelins, and see the cafes and patisseries go by. Nonetheless, although the whole family loved it when we had it, and in family lore thereafter, my recollection of the ’57 Chevy 210 wagon, bought new one chilly fall evening that fall, is that it was a POS. Bad pickup (a six), bad handling, and began going geriatric probably around 75,000 miles.
Obviously, in future Old Car reviews, allowances must be made when critiquing driving dynamics; and much less emphasis should be placed on dynamics–unless a car has recently been rebuilt.
I sell parts for a living. In a good economy shocks are a tough sell. Now fugedaboutit. I see cars all day long dribbling their tires down the freeway. I replace shocks every 50k max. When I put KYB monomax on my 96 explorer 5.0 and lowered it 1.5″ it was FUN to get sideways in…
OK, yes, parts deteriorate with age. But there is another reason that the Imperial seemed more floaty-boaty than expected. The reason is that the car is in fact more floaty-boaty than anything you’ve driven in the last 15 or more years.
I can remember driving my parent’s cars in the ’70s. At that time “good handling” for the average driver meant not being able to feel anything. The concept of “road feel” was, well, not conceivable to most people.
My Mom’s new Impala would feel like a serious sports car if it were transported back to say 1965.
…the Imperial seemed more floaty-boaty than expected. The reason is that the car is in fact more floaty-boaty than anything you’ve driven in the last 15 or more years.
Uhm, well sir, five of my friends and I recently rented a Mercury Marquis to make a trip to Austin.
Two of the five got pretty seasick on the trip. To be fair, there was a lot of crosswind that day, but wow!
Steering that thing was like steering an old video game at a midway arcade…..
Very bad!
Dynamic88,
Admittedly, I have not driven anything comparable in the last 15 years. In fact, I think It was 1970 when I drove Lynnwood Dunn’s (he was either the Dunn who did the special effects for Mad Mad World and many others, or the one who got the Beatles on Capitol Records, but I digress to name drop) Lincoln Continental, as well as the Kays’ (neighbors) ’62 Caddy. I remember especially that the Continental (can’t remember the year, probably mid-’60s) had a lot of feel. That is, I could feel the tires straining when I turned the steering wheel. And I don’t remember anything like the floatiness of the now 42 year old Imperial.
But, yeah, it’s a different age, and I’m sure My ’99 Accord (shocks still great after 167k) wouild feel quite sporty compared to anything of that era.
As long as the reviewer accounts for age and condition of the vehicle he’s testing, I don’t think this is a problem.
So who in their right mind proactively replaces shocks on an old car?…
Put me in the insane category, too. Back in the car commuting days, I put Monroe struts and shocks on my car, and made sure I kept the receipts. Konis they are not, but they came with a lifetime warranty and were readily available. Every 60K miles, I got new, free replacements. Yeah, it was some work, but I hate worn struts. And if you stay on top of stuff like this, you would surprised just how well the old iron will perform. Poorly maintained cars annoy me.
It is amazing the difference routine maintenance and care will make in a car. I just drove a 357,000 mile GMC Sierra back from auction to a friend’s lot.
The truck runs and drives great and the only issues are cosmetic. The head mechanic at the car lot is convinced the truck is running with the origional engine.
I agree, with you Golden, a properly maintained old car will surprise you. I have a 1995 Explorer with 250,000 miles on it that looks, smells and drives like a brand new 2nd gen Explorer. A coworker had a 96 Explorer that felt like it was going to die at any minute and he had 1/2 the mileage I have. He was always asking me if I really had that many miles on mine or did I jimmy the odometer.
Several people have always commented that my cars seem to look like they are new cars, despite the newest one being 9 years old.
I always strive for maximum mechanical reliability, while doing what I can to maintain the appearance. I had a 1986 Pontiac 6000-STE for a bit in 2000 that my friends thought was a ’96 despite it’s very ’80s looks.