TTAC reader Chris writes:
Regarding my 2007 Sonata 2.4L, 5-speed: can I use 0W-20 in place of 5W-20 and keep the warranty intact?
Sajeev responds:
Why? Most engines can handle a small step up/down in viscosity without catastrophic failure, but doing this does not compute. 5W-20 is already lightweight stuff. If fuel economy is your concern, switch to synthetic: its molecules are smaller than dino oil and offer more protection to boot.
Odds are a cost-engineered Hyundai mill doesn’t have the tolerances and lubrication needs (at 7500 rpm) of exotic engines that demand 0-grade oil. And if you live in warmer climates, you are likely to cause more engine wear for no good reason, causing problems after that 100,000 mile warranty runs out.
Don’t do it. Unless our B&B has something to the contrary for Hyundais in particular, of course.
JG writes:
Remember those E46 M3 BMW tachometers that had a variable redline that moved up as the engine and oil came up to temperature? Those were cool. I think when you first started the car, the maximum suggested revolutions were around 5000.
For people who don’t have this sort of feature, we can look in our owner’s manual and find no information whatsoever with regards to how long to let the engine run before we can really boot the long pedal through the carpet.
I always let the engine idle for a few moments after a cold start before moving off, and then drive gently, even keeping the revs below 2500-3000, until the needle on my temperature gauge indicates the coolant is fully warmed. I believe the engine oil takes longer to warm up than the coolant; before I realized this I would give ’er nails as soon as the temp needle entered the bottom end of the normal range. At this time I also consider the temperature of the gearbox and even the heavy grease in the diff.
Question is, does any of this matter? Should I just be running it hard only a minute or so after start up? Maybe getting the engine up to temperature quickly by loading it more heavily is the best idea.
Sajeev responds:
Oh, yes! BMW really nailed it: too bad all the wannabes (they know who they are) chose Bangle styling and i-drive dysfunctionalism over the intelligent tachometer. But I digress . . .
To answer your first question: does it really matter? With the advent of man-made additives called “Viscosity Index Improvers,” today’s oils are great at minimizing wear at start up. So minimize idle time and hit the road, JG! Unless it’s cold enough to freeze the balls off a polar bear (and you roll sans engine block heater) do not sit and idle! The oil’s additives mean you can quickly drive in a conservative, heat-generating manner.
There is nothing worse than circulating cold oil under no load. The active ingredient to building heat is keeping the engine under load. A mild load, that is. Staying below 3000 rpm is a fair measuring stick for (gasoline powered) passenger cars. You are on the right track: oil takes longer to reach operating temperature than coolant, so don’t go messin’ around just because your temp gauge says it’s cool (so to speak). But don’t sit around lollygagging either.
Piston Slap bonus thought:
Let’s give a round of applause for synthetic oils and high quality oil filters. Synthetic’s viscosity at start up is superior to conventional oils, and has a modest(?) advantage over today’s synthetic blend oils. Most OEM-spec filters have an anti-drainback valve that keeps oil in the filter media and fills the filter body quicker at startup. Never cheap out on oil filters and never accept the off brand junk at many oil change shops. When in doubt, bring your own filter to the shop.
On the drainback valve, nearly every filter I’ve ever seen, even the cheap ones, have the drainback prevention feature. Also, depending on the filter installation, this may be completely irrelevent. If the filter hangs the way it’s supposed to, with the opening at the top, the dirty oil will always stay where it belongs. Oil can’t drain up.
0w20 vs 5w20 in a modern car? This kind of question might be where a specialist site really contrasts with TTAC.
Well OK, TTAC is a specialist site.
But if you want to get comprehensive knowledge about car oil find bobistheoilguy and peruse Chevy S-10 and Neon driving newbies interacting with hardcore DIYers and older petroleum engineers and smart Ferrarri collectors. Vast endless continuing wealth of information and ongoing debates and photo chronicles.
Its dangerous to start a debate about motor oil among the retail public, but I didnt start it, so I continue it below, most respectfully.
The difference between 0w-20 and 5w-20 is that there is no difference above cold temperatures.
Note that both end in -20. Same performance hot, both are rated 20 wt hot. Thats how you read that number code thing on the bottle. The first number indicates viscosity cold, the second hot. They use the w after the first number to indicate formal acceptability for winter use.
…so much for 0w-20 protecting less in the desert rallies in an air cooled motor, errr, doodling along in traffic in a modern Hyundai under warranty.
…whereas in the cold the 0w flows better than 5w. So on startup the 0w flows faster and starts lubricating faster than 5w.
So, 0w-20 has an advantage over 5w-20 and 5w-20 has no advantage over 0w-20.
Well, except that 5w-20 is more commonly available, so thats seemingly why some owners manuals in USA say to use it instead of 0w-20.
Mine asks for use of oils on the list of factory approved oils. Last time I looked virtually all were starting with 0w.
There are apparently unknowable-to-the-consumer differences in viscosity between brands; the viscosity ratings are imprecise and I believe industry is self regulated anyway in this matter, i.e. not regulated. This is why to stay with the classics like Mobil 1 or Castrol green etc.
Except if you just change the darn stuff on time, it almost doesn’t matter what you use in any practical sense as long as its a multiweight and you don’t have a turbo in which case you really should use synthetic.
Once up to heat, a 0w20 oil isn’t thinner than a 5w20 oil… well… it is thinner, in a way, but not really in a way that counts…
But being much thinner cold might have adverse effects on your warranty… whether or not there’s less protection then… but then, there really isn’t any benefit to changing…
Changing to a straight 0w, though…
But being much thinner cold might have adverse effects on your warranty…
Bzzzt, no it doesn’t.
Depends on the warranty, I guess… if the manual says you can use 0w20, then you can use it… if not…
If warranty weren’t affected by oil viscosity and grade, I could get a free engine every three years by pouring peanut butter in my sump.
Reasoning by analogy often leads to wrong conclusions.
In order to deny a warranty claim because of the oil used, the manufacturer has to prove that your use of the “wrong” lubricant caused the damage in question. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 made it so. Proving that peanut butter destroyed an engine is easy. Proving that using 0W-20 instead of 5W-20 destroyed an engine is impossible.
For the Sonata oil guy, here’s what I know from my powertrain engineering days at one of the Big 3. At the time, the push was on for thinner oils in the interest of fuel economy. This was several years ago, when most engines were swtiching from 5W30 to 5W20. Anyway, the 5W20 was basically borderline on valvetrain component wear at the time, particularly the OHC finger follower design. The 0W20 oils necessitated a redesign because the valvetrain components would not pass testing in several different engines. In particular the finger follower rollers and valve seating surfaces had minimal wear with the slightly thicker oil, but massive pitting with the 0W20. Before seeing these results, I assumed that a seemingly slightly thinner oil would not make much difference in terms of durability.
Keep that in mind. If 0W20 is not the recommended oil, you might affect the long term durability of your engine.
I can’t comment on how the thinner oil will affect your cam phasers.
If you must change, switch to a synthetic instead of going thinner.
Also, I think the general rule is that the larger the difference between the cold viscosity and the hot viscosity, the more VI additives the oil manufacturer had to use, and therefore less oil base stock. IIRC, several years ago it was said that Mobil 1 10W-30 required no VI additives to achieve the 20 weight spread.
I’m not sure of the actual formulation of, say Mobil 1 0W-20 vs Mobil 1 5W-20, but I would expect that the 5W-20 has more slippery stuff in it and less additives than the 0W-20.
0W-20 is not thinner than 5W-20. The 0W simply means that the extreme cold weather pumpability of the oil is better than its 5W counterpart.
If you are concerned about viscosity, you want to look at the viscosity (thickness) at operating temperatures. Ideally, you would look at HTHS specifications, but they can be harder to find. Easily found numbers include the viscosity (in centistokes cSt) at 100ºC.
For example, Mobil 5000 5W-20 is a typical conventional 5W-20 oil:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Clean_5000.asp
cSt at 100°C = 8.5
0W-20 oils are always synthetics, so look at Mobil-1 0W-20:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-20_Advanced_Fuel_Economy.asp
cSt @ 100ºC = 8.6
At full on high temperatures the 0W-20 is actually a touch thicker in this case.
Mobil advertises its Mobil-1 0W-20 oil as a fuel economy improver primarily because during the warm up phase it is thinner than most 5W-20 oils. That is a good thing! Thinner when cold means easier starting and less drag on the engine while things are warming up. For people with relatively short commutes, that slightly thinner during initial cold operation is a good thing. Friction is reduced. 0W-20 oil isn’t, on the other hand, going to be a fuel economy improver on long runs. Hybrids often spec 0W-20 in part because their ICE engines start and stop often in city driving and thus take a long time to get up to full operating temperature.
Sajeev, you have this one completely wrong. Any engine which is specified for 5W-20 will run, and wear, as well or better on a quality 0W-20 oil as it would on 5W-20. Warranties are likewise not effected. Car guys and gals get this wrong more often than they get it right.
Guys, don’t guess. Look up the product data sheets.
Thanks Sajeev!
I should have mentioned, I have one of those newfangled Ford 4.6 3V engines in a Bullitt Mustang… I run a 250W stick on pan heater as well as the factory block heater; we’ve had the coldest winter in over 1/4 century here. The pan heater comes out of left field and I naturally don’t use in the summer, so I left it out of the original question. I recommend them to anyone in a cold climate though, the oil on the dipstick is warm to the touch before I start the car in the morning, and some days enough heat comes up through the block/etc. to melt the frost off a spot on the hood!
My oil choice? Amsoil 0W30. The spec is 5W20… on this topic, my detroit engineering buddies don’t like 20 weight oils in mod motor variants, and some don’t like 0W anything, but with the temperatures here I figured I’d expiriment. No issues so far, and I don’t feel bad running the heck out of the car in the summer with the last number on the fat side.
I guess I’ll be the off-topic person to say that I think a 5-speed 2007 Sonata sounds pretty cool.
Yeah – sounds like a fun combination!
On the drainback valve, nearly every filter I’ve ever seen, even the cheap ones, have the drainback prevention feature.
Yes, but the top grade filters, like Pureone, have silicone instead of rubber. Rubber will get stiff in cold temps while silicone will stay soft and pliable. To see this, buy filters of each type and put in your freezer. After a couple of hours, take them out and quickly (before they have a chance to warm up) test the flexibility of the two materials.
oil takes longer to reach operating temperature than coolant
Assuming your vehicle has an oil pressure gauge, watch this (at a constant rpm) as the water temp rises and reaches operating temp, and then beyond. The oil pressure will fall at some point well after the water temp stabilizes. This confirms that oil takes longer to come up to operating temp.
Nice comment about quality oil and filters. It’s mind boggling how people can pay a lot of money for a nice vehicle, but they cheap out when it comes to preventative maintenance like oil changes. I’ve been using either Rotella T 5W40 synthetic, or Mobil’s Turbo diesel truck 5W40 in my VW TDIs. (depends on what’s available at the time at Wal-smart). The synthetic oil combined with a good German filter at the recommended OCI should get me 300K out of the engine before it requires a rebuild. Follow what the manufacturer recommends, or exceed what it recommends, but never do less than what it recommends when it comes to oil and filters.
Never driven one, but I’ve heard them called “Hoonatas” on Jalopnik…
Topics like this always interest me. Let me give you the condensed version.
1) For daily driving use what the manufacturer recommends.
2) Your driving habits determine about 95+% of your fuel economy. Unless we’re talking about extremes in oil weight (20W50 vs. 5W20) the oil used does not make much of a difference.
3) A change every 5000 miles and/or once a year (whichever comes first) is absolutely fine for most vehicles.
OK, and here’s where I will do battle with some of the TTAC faithful.
So long as the oil can pass the American Petroleum Institute Standards, it really doesn’t matter what brand it is. The one exception I would make to this would be the ‘recycled oils’ such as the ones that certain retailers sell under their own name. Popular opinion among mechanics in my side of the business is that those simply are not up to snuff in the long run.
I actually use synthetics in certain vehicles that have an enduring value to me and I want to hopefully see on the road 20 years from now(Mercedes S-Class, Lexus SC400 until recently). I change the oil on those every 7000 to 8000 miles and have no regrets doing it. But I also used the cheapest oil and AC Delco filters on a Camry I kept for 240k and usually use a similar formula for everything else.
Investing in top quality aftermarket parts (including oil filters) has a far greater impact on a vehicle than the type of oil you use.
“The one exception I would make to this would be the ‘recycled oils’ such as the ones that certain retailers sell under their own name. Popular opinion among mechanics in my side of the business is that those simply are not up to snuff in the long run.”
Old myths die hard.
Getting back to the original question, the “W” in SAE J-300 is one of the most misunderstood specifications in the automotive world. Look at this, http://www.infineum.com/information/viscosity.html
I run 0W30 synthetic on all my cars, even during the summer. No issues with oil consumption. Mind you, synthetics are no guarantee of zero engine wear, as my dad’s 1991 Mercury Sable has been filled with Mobil1 5W30 since day one, and it’s just starting to smoke. Still, it took 18 years to get to that state.
Here in Edmonton, Canada, I store my engine oil in an outdoor storage shed. At -35C, the difference in viscocity between 0W30 and 5W30 is sort of like comparing room temperature liquid laundry detergent with maple syrup, it’s not a small difference.
I don’t see the curiosity about the 0W-20. Do you live in a very cold area? Stick with the manufacturer recommendation unless you live somewhere like International Falls, MN and park the car outside.
You can drive the car no problem after starting. Keep the revs under control until they car warms up. Yes the oil might not get up to it’s temperature as fast as the coolant, but it’s warm enough when the coolant is in the operating range.
I love oil change controversy. This one stirred up a hornet’s nest, and challenged a lot of assumptions:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/peek-oil/
I think BMW’s engineers were thinking more about thermal expansion of engine components than oil temperatures. BMW delays the party while parts get comfortable within their tolerances. I’m not so sure that immediately stressing a cold engine could be beneficial just to increase oil temperature quicker.
There’s a difference between recycled oil and re-refined oil. The former has merely been centrifuged and had its additives reinforced. It usually sells for less than $1.50 a litre (quart).
Re-refined oil has been put back through the whole process of refinement, somewhat similar to what happens to crude oil. Re-refined oil is OK for older cars that are starting to use lots of oil provided it is changed every 3000 miles or so. Recycled oil is, for me, a big no-no.
To JG: I would say continue doing what you’re doing. Oil doesn’t lubricate properly until it gets up to temperature, not just the engine oil, but also the transmission and differential oil. The wear on those parts is greater before the oil gets up to temp, so it is not a bad idea to be gentle until it does. While how much benefit you get from letting it warm up before running it hard is debatable, it certainly won’t hurt.
My car, a 91 300zx, has an oil pressure gauge. It reads high until the oil gets warmed up. This takes a couple minutes longer than it takes for the temp gauge to get to normal, so after the temp gauge reads normal, the engine oil is still cold, and that’s why the pressure is higher, because it takes more pressure to push the cold oil through the system. I always drive gentle until the oil pressure goes to normal. You can feel it in the gear changes (it’s a manual) as well.
As for putting 0W-20 in your Sonata. Why? You won’t see any difference in performance and it might not hurt, but it won’t help with anything either.
“There’s a difference between recycled oil and re-refined oil.”
Indeed. If a re-refined oil meets current “SM” certification requirements it is as good to go as any other conventional oil.
Again off topic … I’ve spent plenty of time in a 2008 5-speed Sonata (which are easier to find than you might think). Great car, but definitely not hoonage material. Not even close. The transmission doesn’t change the fact that it’s still big and floaty.
On that note, it’s hard to imagine driving this car in a manner that requires anything but factory spec.
scrubnick : On the drainback valve, nearly every filter I’ve ever seen, even the cheap ones, have the drainback prevention feature. Also, depending on the filter installation, this may be completely irrelevent. If the filter hangs the way it’s supposed to, with the opening at the top, the dirty oil will always stay where it belongs. Oil can’t drain up.
Interesting! I’ve noticed that even the cheaper filters (haven’t looked at an Orange Can of Death in a while) have a puny valve, which is probably good enough. The number of pleats inside (i.e how much media is crammed in there) is also a good measuring stick. Before installation, you can pour a lot of oil into a M1 filter because of all the pleats to soak it up.
John Horner :
For example, Mobil 5000 5W-20 is a typical conventional 5W-20 oil:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_Clean_5000.asp
cSt at 100°C = 8.5
0W-20 oils are always synthetics, so look at Mobil-1 0W-20:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-20_Advanced_Fuel_Economy.asp
cSt @ 100ºC = 8.6
Something I didn’t realize is that there are no dino-oils in 0w-20. So make both of them be synthetic.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-30.asp
cSt @ 100º C 11.3
John, isn’t M1 5w-20 a better oil in terms of viscosity when the motor warms up? Because if that’s true, it makes sense to switch from dino 5w-20 to Mobil 1.
johnny ro is 100% right. 0w20 would be a better choice than 5w20 if available. It will not harm your warranty in any way.
The 0w20 will provide you with better protection than the 5w20 in severe cold. However, both weights are proven oils.
Some 5w20’s are thicker than others. A 5w20 from Pennzoil may not be the same viscosity as a 5w20 from Castrol.
5w30, the most common grade these days typically shears down to a 5w20 in a short period of time anyway….viscosities are typically overrated, but sticking close to what the manuf. specs is the safest bet.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com –> learn everything you could imagine about motor oil.
BTW, oil does not get worn out….oil never wears out per say. Its additives, detergents, VIs, TBN deplete not to mention the contaminants and wear metals. The whole reason to change the oil is because when its add-packs are used up it fails to protect well and can become abrasive, acidic and turn to sludge or deposits in the engine. This is why changing oil too early is wasteful. The oil does not protect any better or worse during its useful application. It lubricates just as well new as it does after 2000 miles on it.
The oil change monitors on GM cars do just this….they use algorithms which use engine temperature, cold starts, engine RPMs etc to calculate when a standard API rated oil would have its additives depleted and tell you when to change it with a margin of safety before the oil would fail to do its job properly.
And for the record, dirty looking oil does not mean it is used up. It means it is doing its job of holding all the post-combustion junk in suspension. However, it does not make the oil any less effective. When you drain your oil, all that black oil is holding what you don’t want clinging to the inside of your engine.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-30.asp
cSt @ 100º C 11.3
John, isn’t M1 5w-20 a better oil in terms of viscosity when the motor warms up? Because if that’s true, it makes sense to switch from dino 5w-20 to Mobil 1.
You picked up the 5W-30 Mobil-1 datasheet. The Mobil-1 5W-20 spec is 8.8 cSt @ 100º C, a touch higher than Mobil-1 0W-20, but both are well within the specified range for an xx-20 oil.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_5W-20.asp
“BTW, oil does not get worn out….oil never wears out per say.”
Not exactly right. Base oils do shear and oxidize in use. Additives which are an integral part of motor oil do indeed get depleted. VI improvers break down.
Sajeev:
“The number of pleats inside (i.e how much media is crammed in there) is also a good measuring stick. Before installation, you can pour a lot of oil into a M1 filter because of all the pleats to soak it up.”
Sajeev: So according to your First Testament logic, the filter media has in effect a negative density? Or did you want to try a different way of wording what you meant?
The only conclusion I can draw about the number of pleats inside is how many linear feet of media there is, not anything about its quality.
Tosh: you are running with my brief, not-comprehensive comment in a bewildering direction. First Testament logic? Seriously???
Obviously the quality of the filter media is important, but I neglected to mention it. If you want to go down that path, Google will hook you up.
I normally would, but I can’t find the website where someone reverse engineered each major oil filter and showed the quality of paper and number of pleats (i.e. overall amount of media) in each filter. That site was so good Fram tried to sue him…and IIRC, they failed.
brettc: Make sure your truck diesel synthetic conforms to VW’s standards. Just because it’s a diesel synthetic doesn’t necessarily make it good for a TDI.
Why do you recommend Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy as an alternative to 5W-20 when my car manufacturer recommends 5W-20?
Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy exceeds many new car warranty requirements where SAE 0W-20 or 5W-20 oil is recommended. Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy provides the high temperature protection of 5W-20 oils while offering improved fuel economy. As a result, many consumers can benefit from improved fuel economy while also obtaining outstanding engine protection for their vehicle. Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy only be used in vehicles designed to operate on either 0W-20 or 5W-20 oil.
Back to top
If the manufacturer of my car recommends a 5W-20 motor oil, will I void my warranty if I use Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy instead?
If your car manufacturer recommends a SAE 5W-20 ILSAC oil (starburst), we recommend either Mobil 1 5W-20 or Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy. You will not void your warranty. Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy can provide better fuel economy and better low temperature performance.
Back to top
Thanks, Sajeev. Thank you, John Horner. Big thanks, BITOG.
cheaper filters (haven’t looked at an Orange Can of Death in a while) …
Why the hate on Fram? Are they really a poor choice? I have put serious miles on numerous cars without oil related failures of any kind.
Regarding filter quality, havalook at:
http://www.corolland.com/oil-filters.html
http://ls1tech.com/forums/general-maintenance-repairs/47836-why-fram-oil-filter-so-bad.html
http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html
VerbalKint : http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html
There it is!
A great read about filter design…and the aforementioned knowledge on filter pleats/media differences.
The only conclusion I can draw about the number of pleats inside is how many linear feet of media there is, not anything about its quality.
Filters are constructed with the outer circumference being the can we see and an inner ‘tube’ in the center, with the pleated media between the can and the tube in an accordian-like pattern. What counts is the total surface area of media, and while it might seem that more surface area could be had with a large differential between the can and tube. What I’ve found is that at least some filters with a larger diameter inner tube have a larger surface area than filters with a smaller inner tube. The tubes with smaller diameters mean the media would get crammed in the middle, so fewer pleats are used to avoid this. The only way to know for sure is to cut the thing apart and spread the media. Messy but interesting.
John Horner: You picked up the 5W-30 Mobil-1 datasheet. The Mobil-1 5W-20 spec is 8.8 cSt @ 100º C, a touch higher than Mobil-1 0W-20, but both are well within the specified range for an xx-20 oil.
Crap. In that case, 0w-20 is just fine…in just about any climate!
At least I got the other question right!
I open the filter and inspect each time I change.Its amazing how much metal can be in the filter on a new car ( first change). Another thing I have noticed is two AC filters with the same part # having very different size pleats. Maybe one was a fake AC? WAFTABLE on your 91 sable you may just have valve stem seals that have become brittle which will usualy cause more smoke than worn rings.
Sajeev, my BMW 130i has an oil temperature gauge (display) on the instrument panel (beneath the rev counter). It is true that oil takes considerably longer than coolant to get to optimal operating temperatures.
It takes about another 10 km of driving (under 3000 RPM) after exiting the surburb to get to the stable oiltemperature.
Sure, an API SM/ILSAC GF-4 0W-20 meets all the same specifications and passes all the same tests as an API SM/ILSAC GF-4 5W-20. But that doesn’t mean the guy at the dealership knows that and won’t give you any hassles. Unless you see temperatures approaching -35C – the minimum that 5W is suitable for – you’re probably just as well off using 5W-20 during the warranty period. Since we do see temps below -35C where I am, I have used M1 and Honda 0W-20 during the warranty period on my Mazda3 and was prepared to fight them if anything happened to my engine. Nothing did. If I were more concerned, I would have bought some extra 5W-20 each time for the receipts. I use it in the summer anyway, so it would eventually get used up.
I like to go easy on my engine during warm-up to promote even thermal expansion. Once the coolant is up to operating temperature, I call it good.
@John Horner: What I mean is: if the manual specifically prohibits that weight of oil, then it can’t be covered under warranty or the M-M Act if it causes damage.
M-M will prevent a manufacturer from claiming that the oil you put into the car caused engine damage if the oil meets the standards required and is within the proper weight, even if it isn’t a brand they particularly like or the oil change wasn’t done at the dealership.
It won’t protect you if you put in said peanut butter… or maybe straight 60 oil in a modern car that requires 20. While I agree that 0w20 should provide absolutely no wear disadvantages compared to 5w20 (and indeed, should be much better in cold conditions), it really does pay to check the manual before changing , if you actually care about keeping warranty on everything.
In this case, not being familiar with this particular vehicle’s owner manual, I’m pretty sure that 0w20 is allowed within the range specified (manuals usually state allowable oil viscosities in wide ranges).
Sajeev: “Before installation, you can pour a lot of oil into a M1 filter because of all the pleats to soak it up.”
Think of it this way: Wouldn’t the same filter cannister without ANY media be able to actually contain more oil? More media inside = less room for oil. Thus the breakdown in your logic…
Tosh:
I think Sajeev means that when you “prime” an oil filter, the oil level initially drops as the filter media soaks it up – some filters seem to soak up more than others, so I believe that’s a “rule of thumb” metric.
Apparently I have a failure to communicate. Thanks for the help, shaker!
I’ve used ‘orange cans of death’ to service my 1998 neon sport for 12 years/180,000 miles.
no death yet:)
I have found that even horizontal filters can be pre filled to a certain extent(3/4 full?) with out much spillage. The pleats hold most of the oil in there.
Shaker: Thanks for trying to help, but you’re actually contributing to Sajeev’s misinterpretation of an observation he made that is irrelevant to filtration. Perhaps an analogy could be made to squeezing a roll of toilet paper to ‘determine’ how soft it is, when all you’ve really determined is how loosely it’s wound.
Why am I going on about this? Because Sajeev, from a position of influence, has in effect endorsed M1 filters based on fallacy and irrelevancy, adding to the pile of myths and anecdotes surrounding oil filters. Draw logical conclusions or don’t make any conclusions, but certainly recognize bad conclusions.
And for the record, based on that Knize survey (which, by the way, is also littered with odd conclusions based on purely visual observations) which I read about 5 years ago when I first started reading BITOG, I seek out WIX- and Purolator- manufactured oil filters.
Tosh : Why am I going on about this? Because Sajeev, from a position of influence, has in effect endorsed M1 filters based on fallacy and irrelevancy, adding to the pile of myths and anecdotes surrounding oil filters. Draw logical conclusions or don’t make any conclusions, but certainly recognize bad conclusions.
In effect endorsed M1 filters? Please.
For the record, I do seek out WIX filters just like you, but I spend the extra money for M1s on some of my cars. Yes, I choose both brands because of the Kinze survey, love it or hate it. But NONE of this is an iron-clad recommendation of M1 filters. Of which I mentioned in passing.
Once.
I didn’t even mention M1 filters in the original blog posting. If I really thought they were the NSFW, don’t you think I’d mention it up top…since I am coming from a position of influence?
“…I spend the extra money for M1s on some of my cars.”
That is also an endorsement. (An ‘endorsement’ doesn’t need to be “an iron-clad recommendation”: Depending on who you are, it can be as simple as ‘I use X,’ or ‘My friend heard something nice about X,’ or ‘X doesn’t melt in my hand.’) And since you haven’t given a specific technical, filter performance-related reason (except mention the Knize survey, which summarizes M1 filters: “However, as with all Mobil 1 products, expect to pay 2 – 3 times as much for this filter. I have seen this filter sold at Auto Zone and K-mart and used them a few times, but I feel they are not worth the money in the end.”), my conclusion based on everything said here by you so far is that you can be tricked into spending 2-3 times more than you need to based on a parlor trick (that being the oil disappearing into the multitude of filter pleats). My conclusion might be silly, but it IS logical, based on what you’ve said. I’m not trying to be a troll (No, really!), just asking you to follow reason and recognize a hollow endorsement.
Well, since you mentioned it, I do think your conclusion is silly. Because by your logic I “recommend” these filters far, far more often than the M1:
1. WIX
2. Purolator Pure One
3. Motorcraft (which are supposedly re-skinned Purolators)
I’ve used all of these for longer than I have the M1. I mention them most any time there’s a detailed discussion on filters (not a passing discussion originally presented here) so endlessly harping on my love of M1s makes absolutely no sense to me.
And now everyone knows what oil filters are in my garage and therefore indirectly recommend to everyone given my position of influence. :-)