Thanks for all your comments. I have read and fully considered every one, and will continue to do so as this process evolves. This is your website. While we have to to make a buck, I don’t want to screw it up. I won’t make any changes without running them by you first. And with your help, my thinking has moved from oh shit to well maybe… I don’t have much time to create a game plan that will suit us all. But I will do my level best. Keeping in mind that I am open to debate on any and all points, here are some thoughts:
* Paid comments – Many of you have suggested charging readers to access the comments section, or the ability to make comments. I’m not feeling it. The Best and Brightest ARE TTAC. I don’t want to discourage readers who want to add to our collective knowledge. By the same token, charging people for providing TTAC with content doesn’t make sense to me.
* Payment process – Must be unobtrusive, fair (no automatic roll-over) and fast. Who’d want it any other way? Donations are great, but I need reliable income.
* TTAC ‘Tude Merchandise – I’m well into this, mate. I’m going to launch some products even before we sort the rest of this NSFW out.
Two-Tier TTAC – I agree completely with all of you who’ve warned me that hiding all—or even most—of TTAC behind a wall would be suicide. As one of our commentators said, you got to give ’em a taste. The big question, perhaps the only question: what’s free and what’s pay? This is the big Kahuna. What do we do that’s worth cash money? Let’s go ahead and jump. Jump!
Free
Blogs – have become our meat and potatoes. But let’s face it: they’re nothing more than stylish (I hope) regurgitation. The information itself is available on a number of free sites. Yes, we dig up the occasional gem, but real reporting is an expensive, time consuming business. We can’t afford it right now. Blogging has beefed-up our numbers and unleashed the B&B, but I reckon it’s simply not worth a premium.
Editorials – A lot of our editorials analyze current news. In other words, more regurgitation. While the Death Watch and other series have made a name for the site, I don’t think they’re sufficient unique to justify cold, hard cash. Again, small, fickle audience.
Snapshot reviews – A reasonably-sized free sample of our no-holds-barred automotive tests.
——————————————————————————–
Not Sure
Podcasts – Same rehash, but obviously a lot more fun for the audience. In other words, the entertainment value is significantly higher than blogs and editorials. So… not sure.
——————————————————————————–
Pay
Full Reviews – TTAC may not have access to the latest machines as they come hot off the presses, but we can say things about cars that no one else can. The Google rankings for our reviews regularly puts the big boys to shame. Beefing-up the reviews—more text, more stats, some unique tests, original photos—is not an insurmountable task. The fact that Consumer Reports is successful as a pay service is MOST encouraging. So… free taste, sub for the full monty, which gives you a year’s unfettered access to all new reviews.
Killer app – Garage. Facebook for your car, iPhone compatible. Yes, yes, many have tried. But all have failed. I’m not JUST talking about pics of your wheels and social interaction. TTAC will provide you with regular, truthful, car-specific info. Widgets for your car’s current worth, notices of safety recalls, heads-up on mechanical issues uncovered in forums, running cost calculator, wear item calculator, seasonal TTAC-approved products, news stories, social events, access to car-specific experts, etc.
Your thoughts?
the only site that I can think of that I have ever paid for a special subscriber only section is
ESPN with their “insider” service.
I canceled that however after 2 years, but it was worthwhile for a good amount of time.
They basically just have exclusive reports and stories.
While a lot of the news here may be regurgitated, it’s not always easy to find, and definitely not all together one one site like it is here. I like the “one source” nature of TTAC, and regardless of how many free sites I could go to, I’d rather pay you to do it for me so I don’t have to hunt for it. Besides, if you don’t know what the news is, how do you search for it? Your services are worth a few bucks a year (or 12 if you want) as long as the content level remains the same. I love what you do.
I like the idea of the killer app, and charging for the killer app would work.
However, changing something from free to paid is not a good idea.
I heavily enjoy the car reviews, and I don’t think I would want to pay to read them. The other drawback is that the new car reviews are a huge draw to the site for new readers, and charging for them would prevent new readers from getting as hooked on TTAC as the rest of us.
On the other hand, if the Killer app is good, can store high quality (read high megapixel shots) of my car, and show off stuff, I would pay for the killer app.
Just my 2 cents.
I don’t think you’ve got enough Review ‘cred to charge for them (a la CR). And if you wall off the review section, kiss their Google value that you praised goodbye.
The reviews aren’t my favorite part of the site anyways, but I’ll pay for them if it means keeping the lights on.
The killer app is intriguing, but to do it right will require a tremendous amount of development effort, which likely is beyond your means right now.
I know you don’t like paid comments, but it seems like the best way to keep the content free. How about keeping comments free like they are now, but giving paid B&B members extra recognition, such as badges for membership time or number of posts, avatars, or the ability to embed photos in comments.
I think some of the “Guest Editorials” could be limited to paying members (teased of course). Things like the GM Ch11 analysis series by the anonymous bankruptcy lawyer or the 4-part series on GM’s corporate culture that are pertinent to the news but unique content unavailable elsewhere.
Generally be cautious. Seems like you’re needing revenue to continue the site as-is, but generating content to justify subscriptions adds to present costs and requires even more revenue. You know having to charge is unpleasant; we know it, yet what must be done must be done. Divide the existing pie fairly without banking on new features to make a sell, but be able to add them if needed in the future.
I think getting branded products out and available sooner than later would dramatically help ease the revenue situation. I’m sure there’s pent-up demand for TTAC merchandise among the B&B (especially having been teased with two rounds of pick-the-logo).
Two points.
1. I’m thinking two tier reviews: snapshot for free, extended review for pay. Or at least I was about 30 minutes ago.
2. I’m liking that you’re liking the garage. I’ve always thought we could kick some serious ass in this department. If that’s the way, I will find the will– I mean programming.
Robert,
There was a great deal of “food for thought” in the original post and this response also has some well thought out approaches to the situation. My thoughts are that two key points to achieving success will be 1) keep the lines of communication open and 2) continue to let the “solution” evolve. If you openly communicate what is coming, what’s working, what didn’t work, etc. your audience will stick with you. If you try different approaches you’ll be able to see what is working and what isn’t. There will certainly be pain involved for everyone, but I have to believe that there is a workable solution out there. The Editorials, the blogs and the commentators make this site. I look forward to many more years of enjoying your work!
Best regards and good luck!
Tex
I enjoy some of the material posted on this site, but cannot find any reason to pay for it when I am able to form my own opinions for free. I would hate to see you go, but there is too much free information out there to pay for TTAC.
I just posted in the other thread, but wanted to throw another idea out here:
I will NEVER own an iphone due to the apple/att monopoly, but I WILL own a Blackberry (I have one from work and I love it).
A blackberry app would be fantastic (see Gmail app or google maps app or gtalk app as examples).
I’d pay $10 for a bb app that was customzied for bb.
You also know that if you start charging for the site, you will not be able to pilfer from other sites & publications right?
I say:
if you only need 60k for a year, ask for donations.
keep the entire site (as is) open to all surfers…
if you want to charge for something, it should be OVER and BEYOND what is currently available…
Its next to imposible to be everything to everybody.In order to get a buck a month out of folks TTAC needs to have a little of something for everyone.
I could care less about a review on a 60K Merc
but to others it invaluable.Give me a Steve Lang story,or a review on a 71 Caddy any day of the week.I might just cough 12 USD.
Don’t try and be Consumer Reports another poster pointed out,you won’t get car people.
Go back and read prthug somewhere around the 100 mark in your first piece.Good advice!
I get a buck a month worth of entertainment,and I’m thinking about it.Rollovers piss me off
so make that really clear to the boss.
TrueDelta started offering paid memberships a few months ago to those who don’t want to participate in the surveys.
I didn’t want to offer a recurring option. Others told me I’d be stupid not to. The compromise: we offer both, with non-recurring an extra dollar.
FWIW, no one has selected the recurring option, and I’m more than fine with that.
We use PayPal to handle payments. Seems to work well.
gamper :
March 11th, 2009 at 8:19 am
“Curious, does this mean a “TTAC Deathwatch” series will commence? It only seems fair.”
QFT
By Robert Farago
March 11, 2009
Killer app – Garage. Facebook for your car, iPhone compatible. Yes, yes, many have tried. But all have failed.
With all due respect Robert – his is simply not the case.
It doesnt compute with reality.
The opposite is correct – many do quite well.
Even a pretty low end US iPhone application (there must be a very special kind of refined humor over the Atlantic)- let a Iphone fart
http://ifartmobile.com/ifart-mobile-explodes-to-the-top-of-the-itunes-app-store-charts/
was reaching a place for weeks within the top sellers list on the Apple itunes store and made the inventor a instant slumdog millionaire.
If one can become rich on the iPhone by something as so finely elaborated and duly refined as a ®”The Hammer fart”- think what TTAC could do by a clever idea
Robert, couple of things that I don’t think have been said yet…
I originally discovered TTAC while looking for car reviews for something I was considering buying. You all weren’t doing nearly so much news blogging then. Since then, I’ve stuck around for the no-nonsense coverage of the auto industry and Detroit’s spectacular flameout. This site is definitely slanted, but it’s sorta necessary to compensate for all of the other sites that are slanted in favor of Detroit, and that’s what I find most valuable on the site now.
I agree with you about blogs not really being something that a lot of people would pay for.
However, I’m not sure that the reviews would be either. The reason that CR works as a pay site is that they are completely objective. It’s a source for a review you can rely on, where boring is a selling point. You simply can’t do that in an 800-word format, nor is most of your audience interested in a CR style “review.” The B&B are mostly car guys, and likely rate CR reviews up there with reading the encylopedia. Also, in depth (instrumented testing, lots of pictures, long-term tests, etc) is already well covered by “Road Car and Track Driver”, Edmunds, CR, etc), all of which are free on the web (except CR).
So that means that you have to go the route of having reviews that are mainly entertaining. Some of your reviews are mildly entertaining, but honestly, the only one that I’d pay for based on entertainment value is Lieberman’s RS4 review. If you wanted to charge for reviews, you’d have to up your game significantly, because what you often try to pass off as blisteringly honest just comes out as “I’m going out of my way to find fault with this car.”
Understand your need for regular income, but I think a donation option + swag would be a much better revenue stream, especially if people know that it’s the only way to preserve the current dynamic of the site. If that isn’t enough, put more banner ads on the site, and create a pay version with no ads. Given the fact that the biggest traffic generator to your site (as far as I can tell) is the blog stuff about Detroit, adding advertisements to that section would likely go a long way in improving your revenue stream.
That said, I will pay you $12 TOMORROW if you do just one thing- TURN OFF INTELLITXT!!
That is easily the single most annoying thing about this site.
The only subscription-based solution that works, is where everything is free, but where you have to pay to contribute. Only paying members will be able to write comments. You feel the need to state your opinion? Open your wallet…
That means, the site continues as is today, with the only difference that you have to pay when you sign up for membership.
Editorials like “Your complete car owning history” shows that a lot of people will sign up just for the specific need to contribute for a specific editorial.
However, subscriptions is a very very bad idea. Can’t TTAC at least try the donation way before subscriptions? And see how much money that turns up?
The aftermarket market is a sweet spot that isn’t well addressed. Those sites that exist for particular makers are dripping with fanboy bias.
The full reviews of used/vintage vehicle platforms are a clear differentiator. They are some of the better automotive reading I have done lately. Pointers I fwd to others on such are always appreciated. Ideally you could use each one to launch a “killer app” garage slot.
For more modern vehicles, the garage knowledge base, perhaps linked to Mr. Karesh’s true delta stats would be a practical and interesting resource.
I’m in. Do I simply send a paypal to the TTAC editor with “subscription” in the memo line? Or since this is The Truth About Cars perhaps I should enter “Macallan Speyside Fund” instead?
Please advise.
Ingvar :
March 11th, 2009 at 8:48 am
I agree fully!
Hmm..quite a pickle.
I’m in favor of the tiered approach. TTAC has cred as a “news aggregator” that is done with an editorial position. News blurbs – about the size of the RSS feed – would keep people informed and would keep your name out there. The great editorial content would come at a price.
Also, or alternately, I think there is a way to tap into the need of commenters to say things out loud in public. You ARE offering them/us a forum to get our opinions heard, and there is a legitimate cost for that. How about a micro-commerce approach? To participate, you set up an account and are charged something nominal – 1 cent to view the comment section for a particular topic, 5 cents per comment. If you don’t visit or post much, the cost is in the noise. If you are a vigorous and active participant, you are chipping in to keep the venue alive….
Seems to me like you average about 30-40 comments for 10 topics each day. That’s 20 bucks a day…?
RF – Short and Sweet
I would have no problem kicking in $12 to keep TTAC alive. Where do I send the check?
I understand how difficult it is or can be to make any money off something of this nature, an how unfortunate it is that you really have only several options, them being paid features or subscriptions, producing merchandise that may or may not sell, and getting your traffic way the hell up there so as to make ad placement more expensive.
I have no suggestions, but good luck!
This is an interesting problem, RF. And one we all have failed to solve before. I appreciate you coming back to the BB for additional thoughts.
Idea: Charge for premium membership
Details: members can create avatars; have some premium member designation next to their screen name; and…I think WordPress is the only limitation to this idea. Maybe a change in platforms is in the future. Non-subscribing members still get 100% of the content and ability to comment.
Why this will work: TTAC = Best & Brightest. The site is a place where people can develop a strong position and even a bit of an online personality. Non-contributing readers enjoy this and even seek it, although maybe not consciously. Having a strong personal identity associated with those ideas is something people would be willing to pay for. I mean, some TTAC commenters have already reached celebrity status. The best of them even get turned into contributors and editors. Fostering individual cult-of-personalities is a way to enhance the site and generate a revenue stream.
For examples of this see flickr and their “Pro” membership
PS: I’d pay (donate?) $12 for no additional benefits…TTAC is worth this de minimis cost.
If podcasts were daily, and had no artificial 10 minute time limit, I’d be interested. Nobody pays CR for their “reviews”. CR reviews are usually two paragraphs, with one sentence about how the car actually drives. People pay CR for the reliability ratings.
If the site continues as is, with sporadic podcasts that often never even make it to the podcasts section and are just buried in the news somewhere, I’m not paying.
Somethingawful.com has totally free content, but you pay a fee to get access to the forums.
Also, you guys recently tried to have those live blog things. I don’t think they are quite up to par to pay money for, but if you imposed a little more structure and maybe got some car related guest to come in to talk with that would be a neat feature that people wouldn’t balk at paying for since they weren’t getting it for free before.
put up a donate of $5/mo. inexpensive to those who like the site. pbs and twit.tv have both gotten about 1%-3% of their audience to donate and that should make your masters happy.
i 2nd turning off intellitxt even though i rarely experience it as i simply view the site with adblock and noscript on firefox, but when i come here with another browser/computer i am appalled at the amount of advertising. keep the advertising low-key and don’t pay by click-through but rather by page-view.
Random thoughts:
I believe that the Motley Fool started out letting people post on and read discussion boards for free, then started charging a membership fee to access the discussion boards, and then went back to providing free membership. Having the ability to post probably makes people feel “invested” in a site and more likely to pay for additional access.
The only web sites I have paid for are the Motley Fool (for a stock newsletter subscription) and rotoworld.com (for fantasy football). Both of them provide entertainment and, in theory, improved chances of making (winning) money. Even for people in the car business, I don’t see how TTAC is a money making tool.
Now that I’m hooked on TTAC, I’d pay a modest annual fee. You may be hard pressed to pick up subscribers from the pool of people who are not already familiar with the site.
So i get the blog and the editorials for free but have to pay for the reviews?
Fine. There are plenty of other reviews out there. The may not be as enjoyable as those offered here but at $0 a pop, they’re pretty good value.
You know, if you got 10 newspapers to republish your reviews weekly at $100 a pop you’d rake in 52k. Just sayin.
Non-subscribed readers should be able to post comments, but only as a guest account, without a name. (Your airtight moderation should prevent any issues with that.)
Given that, beef up the account settings for registered users — avatars and signatures are obvious, but would detract from the cleanliness of the site. I don’t know, use your imagination.
Give subscribers access to a “forum view” of the site, with last-post sorting of the articles, so that we can easily continue the comment discussions long after articles have left the front page.
Also, invest in some cameras and photography lessons for your crew. With things like fit and finish, this could contribute to the “truth” tone, and if nothing else gives you unique content.
I’d also say give the writers a few hundred more words of leeway, if you’re going to be charging for it. Also, tighten up your editing and site programming.
Pay section?
Two words. Swimsuit Edition.
And I’m not talking about Farago in a Speedo.
You want gearheads to pay? You have to have girls in the equation somewhere.
PaulieWalnut: RF started the site because the content he wanted to provide was far too blunt for newspapers.
In the spirit of rapid experimentation, I would put up a Donate Now button with a Paypal link straight away. TTAC could start collecting cash in minutes, and get a read on how willing people are to pay for TTAC. I wouldn’t write off a donations model without trying it.
There are lots of things I will do if someone asks me to (donation) that I will not do if someone demands it (required subscription). I don’t think I’m the only one. bobistheoilguy.com went through a cash crisis a few years ago and resolved it with a combination of donations and advertising, but they don’t appear to have a corporate parent to worry about.
BTW, national health care might unleash entrepreneurs to do their thing without the health insurance monster hanging over their heads.
ctoan
Those features should be here. And free.
I’m getting the message that the reviews aren’t special ’nuff neither. That garage is looking better all the time, especially as we’ve already done some development work.
Robert,
I’m firmly in the “no pay site” camp. As an alternative, might I suggest you keep the site as is, but once or twice a year put out some sort of hard-copy publication that could be shamelessly promoted on your site? Maybe a glossy, perfect-bound collection of editorials, an annual deathwatch report, Paul N.’s fantastic “auto biographies”…etc. This way you won’t jeopardize your web traffic and you could start building TTAC’s print brand as well.
This approach seemed to work pretty well for the guy who did http://www.wrestlecrap.com. He started his site as a place for snarky articles and over time transitioned himself into an author of many snarky books.
Robert – I don’t believe that you can begin to charge for the content that you’ve always distributed for free. This model has been proven disastrous over and over again (NYT, Slate, Salon etc.) and I think we’ve pretty much established that in the conversation about this issue.
Killer applications, the garage, open message boards, classifieds (Craig’s List generates revenue only on job and broker-listed apartment listings), expert industry analysis and all the rest are good incentives to keep coming back and will make your site even more sticky, but will they make TTAC more relevant?
I think the best chance you have is a direct appeal to the B&B to keep the lights on. Let’s do and experiment in community development in the same way public broadcasting does it. If one likes the service enough, here is the target we need to hit to keep the enterprise going. You may just have to test the limits of TTAC’s appeal in this way.
I already gave you my thoughts yesterday on this subject. But I just wanted to comment on the picture you are using at the top. I just happen to see that movie for the first time about two weeks ago on HDNet, what a perfect scene. I think that diner scene is one of the best scenes I have ever seen in a movie. It came out five years before I was born, but I still enjoyed the movie today. Now what I am trying to figure out is, do you represent the waitress or Jack’s character?
Keep up the great work.
The killer app for the most part would fail. I am not sure about the others but I have sites that give me most of those features for free. I know that the site makes its money from advertising so I don’t mind the giant AT&T ad but if I am paying just 1 USD then it would need to be gone. I hope this site does not start charging a premium because the two tier sites are annoying.
The reason I found this site is I was looking for a review of a car and this site came up on Google. If you made me pay to see it I would have never used this blog. I am happy that you are going to start selling some swag. As I said before, I would buy a book with all of the reviews for the year and all of the GM Death Watch series.
How about generating revenue by putting lots of ads on the site and have the site be ad-free for subscribers?
I have to agree with several people who have said that whatever has been free up to this point has to remain free. Several things can be added for a paid account though, such as the extra account jazz (like avatars), classifieds, the addition of forums, and extra stuff in reviews (videos perhaps?). There are of course the limitations of the current platform, but judging by the parking lot at my office there is enough computer geek/gear head crossover to get some development help (I for one would offer my 1337 QA analyst skills).
OK, hopefully this won’t be the MBA killing the golden goose…
Apps: I think the whole Iphone & Blackberry idea is excellent. Don’t know about the ‘how’ of it. But a lot of my friends who travel would gladly pay $1 a month (and then some) for the Auto-biography series and other related works.
Publishing / Syndication : Some of the stories and editorials could actually pass the mustard in the real world newspapers and bookshelves. It would also give TTAC an opportunity to be more heavily exposed in the mainstream media. I would strongly consider this.
Content: The one area where I have found TTAC to be in the ‘formative’ stage is with writers who have industry experience. I would try to frequent sites who have people that work regularly in the auto industry, but may or may not require anonymity in order to state their experiences. Picking up these folks from the comments section can also be a great help. I’m not talking about the ‘Why GM sucks’ variety, but more of ‘What actually takes place during a new car launch.’ There are a lot of peeled onions that TTAC has yet to touch.
Donations: Yes, donations do work extremely well. Really. I know of one site that’s loaded with a lot of piss poor people that has managed to receive between $8,000 and $25,000 in donations for every year of it’s existence. The idea of selling unique kitsch is also a very good one. A lot of non-profit media companies do very well with it.
Shareholders: During the first year you will more than likely have limited funds. I would argue that if these other balls begin rolling in the right direction you should open up to having columnists take small equity stakes in the enterprise over the years and share in the profits if things take off. I see that being a long-term possibility.
Overall, I would consider toning down the rhetoric and focusing more on the cerebral end of the car business. You want to get industry professionals and sponsors that will pay for the fact that you can offer content and a demographic that can be found nowhere else, and since GM/Chrysler are headed to reorganization, it is definitely time in my opinion to bury that hatchet. We should always trash a car for being a waste of steel and plastic. But the daily thrashing of specific companies and individuals lends this site towards fanboys/haters that will add virtually no funding and repel those who will.
You have a LOT of people who are willing to work for free. I think that says more about your chance for success than anything else. Don’t get down on the events du jour and focus more of your energies on improving the daily product.
If I need to make Hammer Time a daily, let me know.
Robert:
I don’t see TTAC as a typical car-site loaded with reviews and rabid fanboys. The in-depth analysis of marketing, product strategy and further comments of the B&B is unique. I currently pay for 2 of probably 30 links I visit regularly. TTAC would be #3 because of that content.
Try a monthly or 3-month subscription choice to make it easy, increase perceived value and lock up dollars longer.
Please don’t make Paypal the only option.
Tease the unique editorials and reviews. After the first paragraph or so, make it paid just like the Wall Street Journal.
PickupMan
Nooo!!! This is terrible news. Now the financiapocalypse has finally hit home.
I wouldn’t mind paying to keep TTAC going but I’d hate to see others go away. I say seek a bailout from Obama.
Justification:
TTAC is green. It allows people to read news without the production of paper and to discuss it without leaving their house.
TTAC is indirectly responsible for 2 million jobs. By analyzing those that supposedly are and providing great advice.
TTAC has the same chance of producing an all electric sedan for the masses as Tesla Motors.
I’d say a bridge loan of $400 million would be fair.
Seriously though, I think Ken_DFA has a good idea.
I definitely understand where you’re coming from in regards to paid comments, but I’d urge you to give it another thought from, as someone mentioned above, the “investment” angle. Paying an upfront, one-time fee really does, I think, make one feel more invested in the site, more likely to contribute good content, and more likely to keep coming back. I really think it’s a whole different beast than subscription comments.
In the meantime, a couple of other more immediate suggestions:
– Is there anyone at the home office we should be sending fan mail to? A decision-maker who might be swayed by a flood of “we love TTAC” email?
– Take another reader survey and use those demos to bolster your case.
I might be in a distinct minority but I enjoy 2 things most about the site.
1) Reviews
2) Podcasts
The reviews because they aren’t the puff pieces you read everywhere else. I would pay for them (after the free taste)
The podcasts are just as informative but more fun. Obviously the production quality, duration and frequency would all need to improve. Hey you could get Calacanis on to talk about his Tesla! :)
The podcasts could also increase the sense of community if you used talkshoe or something similar to allow audience participation at times
Thought about becoming a nonprofit? Then you could truly use the PBS/NPR model and allow deductibility of contributions.
After all, are you in here to get filthy rich, or are you here to get reasonable (nonprofit) compensation for pursuing your passion?
Only if you provide unique content can you survive with a pay model. Consumer Reports can charge because of the literally millions of dollars in testing they do every year; cars are only a small part of that. They also offer those $25 pricing reports; that might be a worthwhile consideration.
There might be some potential in the micro-payment approach. How about a voluntary payment/ranking system? At the end of each story, offer readers the choice of paying 1 cent, 5 cents, a dime, 25 cents and a dollar–they contribute what they think the story’s worth.
I like TTAC–a lot–but I would never pay to subscribe. I get about 60 print magazines a month, and I don’t even pay for those. TTAC will fail as a straight-up $12 subscription.
Tough situation. To quote Bart Simpson: “You’re damned if you do, and you’re damned if you don’t.”
If it’s subscription or death, then by all means, try the subscription model. But TBH, I’m not convinced that this would save the site.
I agree with trying the donation route and seeing what happens. It can’t hurt, can it? Wikipedia just raised a bunch of money that way. Try a give-what-you-can approach.
Michael Karesh: I’m aware of that. But money’s tight right now. I honestly don’t think enough people will pay the subscription to address the money shortfall. In the long run i think subscriptions will kill any advertising revenues it now gets due to a falloff in traffic.
Edit the newspaper reviews for tone and place them under a pseudonym if necessary. Robert may find it personally distasteful to dilute the truth but it might give TTAC the money it needs without taking a massive risk like introducing subscriptions.
Many of you have suggested charging readers to access the comments section, or the ability to make comments. I’m not feeling it. The Best and Brightest ARE TTAC.
Right, but not everyone who posts fits that description. Those who you consider “made” commenters should be comped, because they are indeed TTAC. Future bright lights can be comped at any time, adding a year of membership to whatever time they have already purchased.
Davekaybsc :
March 11th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Nobody pays CR for their “reviews”. CR reviews are usually two paragraphs, with one sentence about how the car actually drives. People pay CR for the reliability ratings.
This.
I get the feeling most of your page hits from the reviews are one-time users who Google the name of the car and the word review. Some of those folks become regulars, the vast majority don’t. Reviews are the last thing you want to put behind the subscription wall.
Can’t TTAC simply have an annual fund raising drive ala Public Radio, rather than a subscription service protected by a password? That way each person can give what they think TTAC has been worth to them the each year. And I bet donations will be bigger than you’ll be able to charge for a subscription service. Has a subscription service worked anywhere on the web?
Robert,
I’ve been reading this site EVERY day for the last few years and this is the first comment I’ve left as a member. I work as a Business Manager at a Saturn retailer in Ottawa, Canada. I often learn info about what’s going on with GM long before I hear anything from GM itself. If it takes $12 a year to keep this site active and informing/entertaining me, then I will GLADLY pay it. Let me know how, where and when to send the money and it’s on the way. Recession be damned, this site MUST NOT disappear.
Free Content:
1. News
2. Editorials
3. Car Reviews
4. Comments
5. Chat Dialog box (Watch but not post questions)
(These are your bread and butter. If you wall off these then forget about attracting new viewers or new subscribers for that matter.)
Paid Content
1. Bi-Weekly Pod-Cast
2. Pod Casts with Industry Reps and the like
3. Voting for Ten Best and Ten Worst
4. Ability to post questions in the chat dialog box that you have started using for interviews.
5. Killer App? (I don’t see that much excitement over setting up something like this but maybe it’s just me).
6. Maybe work out something with True Delta where for an additional amount we would be able to get access to information from his site, or vice versa.
Yeesh! So many people who won’t fork over a buck a month??! I would start donations immediately just to see, then maybe your two-tiered structure, with a subscription option for people like me who know we want to read this site. $12 a year, paid in advance, is what – coffee for a week? And you get all this entertainment!
Widgets for your car’s current worth, notices of safety recalls, heads-up on mechanical issues uncovered in forums, running cost calculator, wear item calculator
Should TTAC be the one-stop shop for everything? Would that stretch the all-important brand too far?
Would anyone go only to this site?
Robert:
1 – I hope that 60K insn’t representative of your hosting costs. I have it on pretty good authority that much bigger blogs manage to operate fr much less than that. Trust me on this.
2 – Perhaps it’s time to consider a new advertising source? Didn’t you once fall under the umbrella of FM?
Yeesh! So many people who won’t fork over a buck a month??! I would start donations immediately just to see, then maybe your two-tiered structure, with a subscription option for people like me who know we want to read this site. $12 a year, paid in advance, is what – coffee for a week? And you get all this entertainment!
I agree. I think the rub is what if they start subscriptions and don’t get the response they need. I think leap-of-faith voluntary “subscriptions” may be the way to go. I figure I’m paying for what I’ve already gotten, if nothing else. But at least give me an icon by my name for my trouble. Peer pressure is not always a bad thing.
I’m OK with future reviews being pay-only, but leave the legacy content free. Throw us a bone though and keep the podcasts free (they would be a useful teaser for the reviews anyway). Charge for live chat participation. Your killer ap has no appeal to me, but that’s just me.
Robert:
Change of heart here – start very small. Paid members = no ads (especially those damn Vibrant ads). Otherwise no other changes between paid and non-paid members. So it is almost like the donation model, with a small benefit for members.
Everything else I’ve seen mentioned is filled with risk, with lots of potential downside, and not much upside.
I agree with subscriptions. Have a yearly and a lifetime.
I frequent JeepForum.com and am a lifetime member there. Sure I don’t need to be to post on their forum, but we also get special recognition as paid members, plus added benefits that supports a community we value. I’m not saying TTAC needs to have a forum, as God knows there are enough already… but add in special features. Here is what JF offers for becoming either a yearly or lifetime member:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/announcement.php?f=6&a=5
At JF we can also buy others memberships, or contribute to their membership fund. We even have membership drives.
I also find value in TTAC and I’d join. :)
Why not try NPR style regular fund drives as a starter ? As I mentioned in the earlier article, I’d be happy to subscribe, but making the site a subscription only site bothers me a bit.
I’d buy a TTAC tote bag / T-shirt
RGS920’s comments make sense to me.
If car reviews fall under paid class, I’d suggest hiring specialists who can hook their measuring equipment to the tested car for truly objective measurements that become part of the review.
Enough of this. Time is money. I offer you two quick solutions:
1.)
Donation. Now. Or as fast as Namemedia can implement it ….
Everybody who donates more the $50 will become a lifetime member and will have access to everything should the site ever go PPV.
That’ll give you at least a year to tinker and come up with other solutions that may not even be necessary then …
2.) Come to China.
Same as I wrote in the other post:
This is a bad idea Robert. There just aren’t enough examples of sites making this work, I have a feeling you are headed down the wrong road. Their might be a few who say they are willing to pay up but the proof will be in the pudding when you start charging, I have a feeling you will see maybe 25% of those who said they would actually pay up. My self I don’t like the idea of paying for content, the internet is free everywhere and as much as I LOVE your site I don’t like the idea of paying to get into what I already get for free. I would gladly donate, maybe even more than you are asking but being forced doesn’t make me happy.
Here is a novel idea why don’t you just start accepting donations to keep the site going, like PBS except without the annoying beg-fest every month. The subscrition dollars you are trying to get aren’t much and I would bet anything that all of us that visit this site on a regular basis and even the new readers would gladly donate a few bucks to see the site move forward rather than have to pay for the content.
Let’s see you need 5000 people to pay $12 for a year, that is only $60,000. There are 330,000 regular readers of the site each month and almost a million unique readers a month. If just a small percentage of the regulars donated a single dollar that would get you well over the $60,000 you need. I have a lot of ideas on how you could make this work and work good and it wouldn’t feel like we were paying for some buff book, rather all owners of a site we all love.
And if people want to donate more give them a little something for it: donate $15 get a TTAC hat, $50 T-shirt, $100 key chain or something. You need to get some TTAC get togethers where we can start buying into the TTAC brand, something fun with a small charge at the door. I emailed you a while back the idea of having a bailout bash-a-thon where everyone pays for some time to smash the sh*t out of my Cadillac. There are tons of ways to make money while not relying on advertisers, just think outside the box. And charging people isn’t going to work or get your more readership.
Bertel Schmitt :
Im with Bertel 1.) proposal 100%
There are very few sites I would consider paying for, although this is one. I like RedBarchetta’s idea best so far. Rush fan Eh?
I agree with Redbarchetta‘s overpriced goodies idea. Besides Cafepress t-shirts and the ilk, perhaps one of the B&B has access to a CNC lathe, laser engraver, or something manufacturing-related to come up with custom goods.
To keep things fresh, you can combine this with the logo contest and issue products with a few design every month, so we can try to collect them all. Sort of like Scion xB special editions or Pokemons, just more desirable.
Well, since my first suggestion apparently flopped. Perhaps TTAC should begin lobbying for a government bailout.
Ok, after reading daily for a l o n g time, this topic forces me to finally join.
In no particular order:
1. $12-$20 is a fair price for the enjoyment.
2. Yes, I’d subscribe but…
3. I’d rather donate.
4. Before going sub, at least TRY the donation route. Specifically, a “2 WEEK SAVE TTAC” fundraiser. You may find that after the 2 weeks that you raised MORE than the sub target.
5. If not, go to sub on the condition that if initial goals aren’t met refunds will ensue. I’d hate to fork over the $12 only to have the doors shut after 2 months.
Other thoughts:
1. I come here every day because of the tone of independence that isn’t usually found in the traditional media.
2. I read EVERY review posted, even after buying my Genesis 3 months ago. It was the TTAC review that convinced me to give Hyundai a try.
Thank you!
I would gladly pay the $12 subscription fee, but put me in the camp that thinks you would do better with PayPal donations. As a hardcore Dan Carlin podcast subscriber, he asks for a $1/show donation and I send him about $50/year. For folks who truly value content, the guilt associated with being a free-loader is powerful. The free-loaders will never pay anyway.
I would gladly donate, maybe even more than you are asking but being forced doesn’t make me happy.
Voluntary vs. required payment is an important distinction.
I’m sure someone has brought this up, but I don’t have time to read 200+ comments on an idea on how to charge for something…
have the B&B record their own DIY jobs on their cars via videotape. Then have an upload page where people can pay for a quick video lesson on how to switch out a radiator, do your own brakes, etc. Video is crucial…text, and shitty photos (i.e. Haynes manual), doesn’t do enough to inspire the confidence needed. I’m sure there are videos out there on Youtube but if there was one place where people could reliably go to see quality instructional videos, they would. Also, if it’s “the truth”, then the B&B should feel free to include all the wrench throwing and creative wordplay in their videos during the work. I’ve never done anything mechanical without throwing an expletive tirade at some point or another, and that would add entertainment value!
hold the chicken…
Robert —
I don’t know what the right pay model is for TTAC, but there has got to be one. (Speaking only for myself, I’d gladly subscribe for the reviews.) As someone who works for a subscription-based website (PJTV.com), I know how difficult it is to get people to pay for web content — even quality content.
But the Everything Is Free on the Web model obviously can’t work forever, or even very much longer.
The one model I didn’t see you discuss is the one that one company has actually made work — the iTunes model. No subs required, but you pay a buck a pop for what you really want to hear. Or in this case, read. Asking someone to subscribe to something — even inexpensively and for a short term — is asking them to make a commitment. Charge’em a buck and give them something worth $1.25 in return, and they’ll come back for more.
At least, that’s what I keep telling my employer — so far to no avail.
Best of luck,
-S.
Ditto Bertel’s comment.
Donation drive ASAP to gauge the support and buy time.
Full subscription or walling off reviews is death.
Develop premium content. What will folks pay extra for? 99cents a pop for something special? Revenue sharing on premium content to attract more quality writers? killer apps, yes, if you have the time and money to risk on them.
Robert:
When you say “iPhone compatible,” do you mean some kind of application users can purchase, or were you simply referring to making TTAC look prettier on the iPhone’s browser? The latter is probably A Good Thing [TM], but if you’re talking about the former, I’ve been dorking around with Apple’s iPhone SDK for a couple months. If you need someone to do the grunt work of writing code, I might be able to contribute.
Someone above mentioned keeping the legacy content free, but I’d extend that idea a bit further.
After some pre-set time period — 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, whatever — make ALL content, even the paid stuff, free. Otherwise, your Google rankings will take a big hit, as their robots try and fail to track your stuff.
As items with lasting value, you could keep car reviews behind the subscription wall. But everything else should be eventually set free.
My comment to the first post supported a subscriber model. Given the range of comments, I now support trying a donation/tip-jar model first. At the least, it will buy time. If you move to a subscription model, you can give everyone who donated a pro-rated subscription.
Whatever you do, do not wall off the reviews. They drive traffic to the site. More in depth reviews, other content for premium — that’s fine. But walling off the reviews to premium subscribers only will be the death for this site.
What is the purpose of the expanded site? What is RF’s goal? There has to be a clearly stated objective. Before I retired as a B-school prof, one of the first readings I required of my students was “The Net: A Market Too Perfect for Profits” (Rubert Kuttner, Business Week, 22 May 1998, p. 20). It is going to be very difficult to establish a profitable information only website without some truly unique proposition. None of the ideas discussed above are unique with the exception of a killer app or a maybe a global car buff, networking site. Everything else being discussed is available on multiple sites and media. Oft mentioned CR has the advantage of deep pockets from the magazine which has always been paid subscription.
RF’s need for income notwithstanding, I have noticed the editorials, news items, and comments that first drew me to the site are what still draw me to the site. Maybe RF should consider doing a 180; cut TTAC back to its origins, go back to moderator status for reader provided inputs. All the content, reviews, and some editorial material could come from the B&B thus simplifying RF’s life. After some amount of time as a registered member, we could all be solicited for donations via the “shame” approach….you have been reading this site for a year and have not donated any money. I have been converted into a “paying” customer by two minor free utility programs I used in the past. They just politely asked for funds. I suspect a lot of us would pay up.
What is the objective?
“If you have no destination, any path will get your there.”
BTW, that Denny’s in the photo is still open (and unchanged) here in Eugene. And the weather looks just the same as today.
If the garage does half of what you said in the ‘Killer App’ section, just tell me where and how to send in my subscription money. Having something else look for recalls for my vehicles or known recurring issues, etc is worth that to me easily.
NOTE: IMO, the ‘Virtual Garage’ part sounded entirely uninspiring until I found out what was planned. You need a different name; there are plenty of other virtual garages out there. Sounds more like vehicular management to be honest. If this is an iPhone app, could you also set it up to do things like track mileage, service, etc and then calculate and add to the calendar dates to get the next service intervals done?
(NOTE: Sorry that I don’t have time to read all of the comments, for all I know this is all said and done and answered and rehashed above….)
As much as the click-ads (especially the popups) annoy me… maybe if we started clicking through to them more, we could generate more revenue.
Then again, what do I know about website marketing?
I think what makes this site different is the interection of hosts, the humor, competent writing and familiarity. I’d gladly pay versus seeing you guys go away and if economics is forcing you to do this than others will have to also, although they might chrge less. Of course they post less often. PayPal would my preferred payment option, unless you want a cool 70’s Vega “GT” driver’s seat for the first year and it reclines and swivels ( very custom ).
Donations the only way. Forums and editorial are that matter on TTAC. The rest of the “news” is available from numerous other sources. No way a paid sub model will work.
I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned yet, but I think you could even throw “Piston Slap” behind the premium content wall. It’s still young, so the exposure to the public is still minimal. Besides it wouldn’t be any different from paying for a mechanic’s advice and help. Certainly worth at least $1/month!
Instead of subscriber only comments, just provide subscribers with early access to posts — say 15-30 minutes advanced. This gives subscribers first shot at comments, but they are eventually open to all. (Slashdot does this)
Websites make money from ad revenue. Look at Winding Road. They started out as a monthly email with a cool magazine “look” and now are a full fledged website with lots of ads. Don’t know if they’re profitable but I assume they are. Your overhead is certainly so much lower.
Why don’t you repackage and sell ads. Continue the website in current (modified) form. Set up a free email subscription service and send out a monthly “e-zine”. The e-zine should be heavy on reviews. Used car reviews and your editorials on the domestic industry can be your “edge”. You’ll have 330k subscribers right off the bat which is a very marketable number for advertisers.
You should have money coming in fairly quickly. Package it with a link to spend a $1 for the app and you’re good to go.
2.) Come to China.
The Truth About Cars provides no-holds-barred, take-no-prisoners automotive reviews and industry-related editorials. Our writers call it like they see it, and pull no punches. We also provide a comments section for readers to voice their informed and passionate opinions in a atmosphere of mutual respect.
Yup, that sounds like something that Communist Party officials will just love to have streaming into the homes of their subjects. Right. We’ll see how long that would last.
I sympathize with your financial woes. But I dunno if pay per view will work as far as your expectations. (Increasing taxes doesn’t increase revenues, for example.)
I stay with TTAC and its B&B of the very high quality it presents.
When I’m waiting for my carry-outs at the finer beaneries I frequent I (very) often strike up conversations with other folks sitting up at the bar. More often than not we wind up talking long enough that my food is cold before I leave the joint. If it turns out they’re gear heads I always turn ‘em on to TTAC. And just to make sure I write your e-ddress on the bar/restaurant’s stationary (napkin) just so they don’t forget. If you go a-charging for content many first timers will blow it off—even if you “give ‘em a taste.”
Maybe you should consider some type of sales effort to market your lovely wares? Would after-market hot parts companies be a good link for example?
Or… I dunno… being an outta work technical writer (ex-GM)… I’m wondering… howz ‘bout some of the readers that grew up in ($$$)Ferraries and Rollers and such open their wallets with a little bail out action? Or selling shares? At least that would be bank rolling a potential profit center (unlike our tax dollars). Or maybe Robert F. should do a simple remortgage of Farago Manor?
It destroys my argument but I’d probably cough up the dough from my unemployment check.
Ken_DFA has an excellent idea with annual/bi-annual publication of TTAC’s best. I would certainly pay for each one, I would even pay an up-front subscription for them.
I would also pony up immediately for some TTAC gear (sweaters, windbreakers…just keep the badging subtle).
I originally backed the pay-to-comment idea but I have to admit you’re probably correct about that not being the right thing to do. You could gold-star those commenters that do donate for a year and count on (what could quickly become) significant social pressure among the commenters to ante up.
Again, video is the key. The reviews are good, but you don’t have the access or budget of the mags so they will always one-up you on photo quality and location pieces (I’m guessing you don’t have any swiss alps supercar shootouts planned…wild guess). TTAC has superior opinions and good author recognition, so getting these guys on camera, in the car being reviewed and sharing their thoughts is key. B&B comments about the pay-video content will drive just-readers crazy (“nice slide Baruth” or “wow, Toyota does make crap interiors, look at that” pushes all the right buttons) and could spur membership.
I agree starting a subscription now may kill the site.
However, if I could donate now I would, and if I can get something extra for say $50.00 I would do that too. Posters above are correct, get moving, no paralysis by analysis.
I also want to be able to do one Flame a week,(just kidding) hmm how much for one flame a week?
I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned yet, but I think you could even throw “Piston Slap” behind the premium content wall.
Great idea. People will think it’s a porn thing.
For $100, you get a flame icon next to your name and you can flame all you want.
I think you should reference another site that was a two tiered setup. Fark. Basically a weird news aggregator, but it gives the paying customers instant access higher levels of interactivity, notoriety for the paying customer handle. The fee is something cheap too. Whatever you decide, good luck to you.
Donations. For my donation, I want a logo next to my name in the comments section. Something that says “I put my money where my mouth is….for TTAC.”
And maybe offer different logos for different levels of support (donations). Gold, Silver, Bronze.
Either way, I agree that it should be kept voluntary, and I believe you will crush your $60k goal.
RGS920’s comments make sense to me also.
I’m already a paypal user so it would work for me.
I’ve donated more then the subscription asking price to keep sites I love alive.
MgoBLUE is right, I think.
No matter what, I’m in.
OK, if there’s a subscription level that gets me called a “Flying Vagina” I’ll pay.
More on the donations thing…
Also offer a monthly donation agreement for whatever amount people want to sign up for. Personally, I’d donate $5 bucks per month for the rest of my life before I would donate $100 today. Plus, as the managing director, I would think that you’d rather have the recurring monthly revenue than one big flash in the pan.
I pay Consumer Reports $5.95/mo. I haven’t looked at their site in months….nor have I ever considered cancelling the ‘subscription’, even though I can cancel at any time. That’s why I suggest this approach.
It’s painless for the B&B…and for those who can’t swing it right now, they’ll pony-up when they get back on their feet.
An annual fund raiser isn’t a bad idea, either. Hell, even make it an annual raffle. First prize gets an Aztek, or an ’05 Boxster, or something. I betcha Stephen Lang could find something RARE at auction…..on the cheap….then raffle it off. Five or ten bucks per ticket. I’d buy 2 every time.
I don’t think a subscription model is a good idea. Lots of sites have tried that in the past, good sites too, and it failed miserably. They either died trying or switched back to free.
I’ve been visiting TTAC for long time and find this site to be very addictive, and would pay some sort of fee to help keep it going. That being said how will new people coming to the site know if paying is worth it? It might be better to have me wade through a little more advertising or maybe more TTAC merchandise? Paying to comment could be more viable than you think, could
keep the trolling down a little as well. Hope it all works out.
I like Bertel Schmitt’s idea of donating a fee to be flame proof!
TTAC Deathwatch 1…..
This is funny.. How about “no bailouts!!” If you can’t make money as a site administrator through advertising, “Let ’em die”.
This is hardly the only site out there that allows people to post views on the auto industry.
Here’s the problem;
Take a look at this for free. How do they do it?
http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/
austinseven:
The whole thing read like one big advertising supplement, there were big glossy ads in it, plus they have a sister publication which probably provided most of the content…so they’re not a whole lot like TTAC.
holy shit! MGO Blue’s idea wins! Raffle off a strange & unique vehicle each week, purchased by Mr. Lang at auction. Suzuki X-90! Aztek! Vehicross! XR4Ti! $5 per ticket to the raffle. You can likely get the cars for under $5k each, so sell 1,000 tickets to break even. You’d probably sell 50,000 a week.
TTAC Deathwatch 1…..
This is funny.. How about “no bailouts!!” If you can’t make money as a site administrator through advertising, “Let ‘em die”.
This is hardly the only site out there that allows people to post views on the auto industry.
Are you sitting down? If it’s anything more than a juvenile bulletin board, they’re hurting for ad dollars, too, right now. Count on it.
I could live with it just as you’ve laid it out above – most everything I come here for would still be free.
The reviews would be for subscribers, which suits me, as I don’t read most of them anyway. I doubt though, that people are actually willing to pay for reviews -good as they are- when there are many free reviews available.
Paying for “killer aps” also won’t bother me, as I don’t need them.
I agree with those that have argued that a subscription model is a poor choice. I recommend a “donation” model that provides its donors with a little something extra.
I, like others, appreciate TTAC’s lack of trolls and flaming. I think that the site needs moderators that can take some of that load off of RF having to look at every comment (unless he wants to, of course). There will be a point in time as the site continues to grow that this will be required. Better to sort it out now than at the moment of overflow. Most forum moderators are volunteers that might get that “something extra” for free.
I like the TTAC frank and sometimes brutal truth about cars and the industry. The B&B are key to this. How about advancing the site to 1) Keep topics at the top based on popularity – gotta have a Digg-type mechanism. Too much great content and commentary get lost simply to make way for the next post which may not be near as interesting. 2) Provide a clickable link for the contributors so that it brings up an option to see past comments from them, search options, etc. As it is, there is no easy way for me to look at past posts from a particular contributor. This has to change in order for the site to be competitive.
The car reviews, as I have stated in a previous post months ago, have to lose that arbitrary length maximum. There needs to be more detail, photos that are worth clicking on, etc. Why there is no video, high def photos and real detail on the reviews is not clear to me. Even then, you won’t be able to charge for it. The revenue will come if the content of the reviews increases. I realize that there is a catch-22 at play here, but you have to invest in the bandwidth and site capabilities if you are to attract more numbers.
The B&B contributes mightily to the site’s value in the comments. They should also be contributing to the car reviews in some form. It is simply not possible for a TTAC official reviewer to cover it all about a specific model (even without that arbitrary limitation on word count). What is needed is the B&B contribution to those reviews. A great example is that recent post where contributors listed the cars they owned and, in most cases, provided some colorful info into that ownership experience. Some things aren’t apparent on the short stint that the TTAC staff has with a vehicle. They are only evident after some mileage and experience with the vehicle. That would add great value to the site. Still can’t charge for it. The money will come if the content expands. Let the contributors help out with that.
I’d be more than happy to detail a few things that aren’t well known about the 08 Accord, for example, simply because I’ve spent over a year with it. Some “Truth” that I wish I’d known before I purchased it includes things like the sedan receiving a 3-star rear crash rating, the intrusive active head restraint that only applies to the passenger seat, and just how much road noise there is on coarse highway pavement. This information is not always apparent from sites like Edmunds. It should be from TTAC and it should be easy to get to.
I’m getting off-topic, but I want to repeat that the subscription model should not be necessary if you can attract the right advertisers. You know, the “if you build it, they will come” thing. It won’t be GM or any of the other manufacturers who have had vehicles trashed – and rightfully so. There are plenty of others ready to step up to a hugely popular site.
RF,
The primary source of revenue should be advertising. Your job 1 should be to improve the advertising operation.
Anything that reduces advertising revenue, such as paid reviews, would be suicide. It goes like this: guy wants to buy car, has money in pocket, goes online and searches Google, finds his way to TTAC, and… finds relevant ads to spend that money on. Simple.
If you’re unhappy with your advertising revenue it doesn’t mean you should give up on advertising.
I postulate that you can be viable with advertising IF you organize your advertising operation better. Quite frankly, the ads and advertising part of your site are a bit underwhelming.
You need to reset your natural aversion against advertising, get over it and get on board with it. Of course without damaging editorial integrity, because editorial integrity and public trust are really the value of your site.
If you can’t do this yourself, you need to find a commercial person to help you with it. A two-person team of editor (that’s you) and commercial manager (the ‘dirty’ guy) would make a lot of sense. This, of course, requires spending MORE to survive, but we all know that the way out of trouble lies not in cutting spending, but in a viable business plan.
One form of advertising could be ‘sponsored by BMW’ or something like that: get a big corporation to sponsor your whole site for a year. You can and must still retain editorial integrity despite such sponsorships (and sponsors would want you to).
I’m willing to pledge a donation (public radio style) for your very own bailout by the public during this downturn.
By the way, I like the reviews of used cars. That is totally in tune with the times AND sorely lacking on the web. Reviews of 5 year old cars from a perspective of today’s tastes would be very useful.
Bertel wants to pay $100 to flame all he wants.
The rest of us would then have to pay up to be “flame proof.”
There, that’s the way to do it, two revenue sources in one, mob style.
How about holding a pledge drive like public radio? A big annoying ad in your face when you enter the site; “$10,000 to go this week; get a free TTAC mug at $50 pledge level”.
This will probably get the regulars to fork over some money.
It’s annoying, but better than death.
And how much would it cost me to be the “made” guy at TTAC, i.e. I may flame whomever I see fit and anybody who dares to touch me gets banned?
Seriously though RF, please get the donation button up there ASAP and watch the B&B’s faith shineth through.
Two heads are better than one. You guys seem to be friendly with Jalopnik perhaps there are others? Why not join up with them and create a “multi site pass?” say for 10.00 a month or whatever, I get full access to TTAC Jalop, autoextremist, whoever.
This way you leverage all your unique users, but it does mean you would all have to share. Easy enough to allocate by the click though…
As for TTAC as a pay site, I do enjoy you, but I am afraid hasta la vista would be my answer.
I like the idea that the fellow mentioned earlier – the somethingawful.com “pay to participate in the forums model”
They sweetened the (one-time $10 charge a while ago) deal by allowing home-made animated GIF avatars, which refected the personality of the posters, Though some avatars got old, (because they charged you $5 to change it), some posters changed back and forth on a surprisingly regular basis, as they were supporting the site (as anybody viewing would know).
Do the somethingawful.com thing – $10 to join the forum with an avatar that you can upload; $5 to change that avatar; so by keeping it ‘fresh’ you’re donating, too. No annual renewal, but if you get banned, $10 to get back in.
I think that the donation option has the best chance of working.
In addition, you might try a “For Sale” board in which the poster pays money. You have a readership unusually dedicated to automobiles and automobile performance. If I were, say, someone with the guts of 4 different Alfa Romeos laying around the garage, I might like to post what I have for sale in TTAC in preference to another board due to the high signal-to-noise ratio of interested parties. That’s hypothetical, of course; I don’t know anyone actually like that…
This idea is similar to what Joel Spolsky (of “Joel on Software” fame) did when he started an employment board because his readership tends to be the cream of the crop of software developers, so people pay for the privilege of targeting that readership.
A lot of people seem keen on the donation idea. They have me leaning in that direction too.
It’s an idea that could be tried easily for a while to test and see how things go. Little or no downside. PBS raises all types of money to help keep the channel going.
I don’t mind either way for payments – this is THE motoring website for me now, so donation/sub doesn’t matter to me. Only thing stopping me from donating was degree of difficulty.
Keep the reviews (at least full versions) behind the payment wall. To me that’s your bread and butter.
As for the stuff that’s free, I’d keep the news, but rotate the other content for teasers once in a while to get the freeloaders interested. Like a “podcasts preview” week or something.
Yikes, this is scary stuff. I would purchase a subscription for almost any amount, but things would never be the same.
@anonymous (no flame-intended):
“Those who you consider ‘made’ commenters should be comped, because they are indeed TTAC. Future bright lights can be comped at any time…”
This is exactly why TTAC must not make ANY changes to the current format. No subscriptions, period. For one thing, this suggestion that any commenters are more important than others smacks of an elitist undertone that would destroy this site.
TTAC is shoving its opinions up everyone’s ass more than ever already. You can’t turn around and say, “well we’re telling the truth,” and then discriminate against people who won’t pay to see all of it or participate in any dialogue.
Plus, you can’t delete any stupid comments when people pay to make them. I’ve had some of mine deleted, and I’ve always taken it is a challenge to step up my game.
I say change nothing!
The Killer app sounds great, and you could probably charge for it down the road. But right now you should keep what you have.
You need some people who will pony up because they believe in what you’re doing. So many of the “B&B” are so goddamn smart and have the automotive business all figured out. HELLO? YOUR ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION CHAMPION IS ROBERT FARAGO. You should be throwing your money at him to keep TTAC going.
Donate! Mr. Farago’s writing is what brings in all the other people for you to argue with.
I know it’s too late now, but the “Best and the Brightest” moniker is just totally over the top IMO. In light of the hysterical, hyper-political tone lately I find it ironic, as well. The B&B are the namesake of Ivy League intellectuals and academics from the Kennedy administration? To paraphrase Sen. Bentsen, the TTAC B&B are no JFK B&B.
This site has to stay just the way it is. Forget about all of this subscription nonsense, and “I want a star and an avatar next to my name,” or “I want 15% off TTAC beach towels.” Times are tough, but without TTAC they would be much worse. At least ONE thing we all care about must not lose all of its integrity and subsequently turn to shit. People here who can afford to better pony up ASAP.
Rant over…cocktail flag now officially flying…cold bottle of Carlsberg opening in 3…2…1…
First of all, i think you guys might have taken my idea on that killer app… YES!
Second of all…
“In addition, you might try a “For Sale” board in which the poster pays money”
renkeyes had an incredible suggestion. people who read this site are evidently people who love their cars. and they probably want to sell their cars to people who are just as obsessed as they are.
and just to add: maybe a poster can choose either to pay for the post, or, if its a classic car, LET YOU GUYS REVIEW IT. I’m telling you, win win for both sides: a free posting and a complete review of the classic car, which will in turn generate a TON of interest for the car, which then might sell for a higher price.
DO IT.
Two-Tier TTAC – The big question, perhaps the only question: what’s free and what’s pay?
News articles: free [free everywhere else]
editorials: paid subscription.
Giving a taste? – Do it as financial times does it. You give a person access to a limited number of articles, after some 4 editorials you got to shell out for more. That way people who want to keep up with the editorials can. There are always the snapshot articles, give the first paragraph and then pay for the rest.
Reviews are a little hard to hard to justify to me because I can go to youtube and get a video review for free and even negative reviews. I don’t even have to read! On the other hand as I said in the initial post and as mentioned here, google.com ranks this highly when searching for reviews. In fact I found the site initially because of the reviews and stuck around after finally seeing a car review site not so biased.
Consumer reports does so well because their reviews cover everything. You guys want to kick off membership create a top 10 best bang for buck with true analysis. I read MotorTrend and saw that the Forrester had value not because it had a big engine or whatever, but because it didn’t cut corners. The struts were gas unlike Toyota and Honda for example. Those kind of articles make sense. Then again MotorTrend has free articles as well. I think the only niche is the negative spin from the news and editorials about what is really going on in this economy…. that and the reviews which do not pull punches.
[crap. Got disconnected, lost my earlier, long post. Trying to recreate.]
RF,
I’ll add my point of view.
Your reasoning in this post is not too far off from what I imagine will be the final outcome. Your rationale for what’s pay and what’s not holds.
One adjustment we will need is about charging for the reviews. I have to agree with many replies that there will be too many downsides to walling off the reviews offsetting any revenue upside; the two big ones being
– Switching something that was free to pay
– Loosing the Google rankings
I also think that reviews are the gateway to TTAC for new readers / subscribers. The rest of TTAC is actually much more original in concept, even if technically it is regurgitation. You come in for the reviews — a familiar concept from elsewhere — you stay for the rest of TTAC.
Even a teaser summary / pay-for-full review model would have the same downsides as above.
However, here is a realistic way to monetize the reviews.
Context:
– On any given day, most of us read a revew out of interest, as we’re usually actually buying a car every 3-5 years. So it’s a steeper step to pay for entertainment.
– When someone is buying a vehicle, and is about to spend $30,000, $40,000, $70,000… a handful of dollars to avoid a costly mistake — or to make the best decision — pale by comparison.
Thus, we offer the active buyer “packages” for the category of vehicle they are seeking, or a specific number of vehicles.
These packages consist of the full relevant TTAC reviews, formatted and downloadable as a PDF. Such a package can cost, say, 20$ for all vehicle from a certain category (e.g. mid-size, mainstream SUVs), or an a-la-carte price for those cross-shopping vehicles accross categories: $3 per car review, minimum of $12.
1. An example of the former:
Person shopping for a 4-cyl family sedan requests that category, gets a PDF with all TTAC reviews of the Altima, Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu, Sebring [dry-heave ‘scuse me], Mazda6, Legacy et. al. $20, click here to download the PDF.
2. An example of the latter:
Person is actively shopping for a sporty drive, less then $35K, wants four seats but doesn’t need them, and is down to a variety of rides: BMW 128i, TSX, 370Z, RDX and the WRX. Click-click-click on the checkoxes, 5 cars x 3$ per = $15, click to download your PDF.
I’ll leave it at that for now, will get into the killer app idea later. I will say that I think it is good, it is unique, a value-add and is suited to its medium.
— Mark.
This is exactly why TTAC must not make ANY changes to the current format. No subscriptions, period. For one thing, this suggestion that any commenters are more important than others smacks of an elitist undertone that would destroy this site. This is exactly why TTAC must not make ANY changes to the current format. No subscriptions, period. For one thing, this suggestion that any commenters are more important than others smacks of an elitist undertone that would destroy this site.
Dramatic much? How much content do you think the most prolific 100 commenters provide? Way over half, I can assure you. They provide the glue that would keep things going in the comments section. They are important only because they provide gross content, not because they are better than the lurkers or the occasional commenters. Elitism has nothing to do with it. You would never know who got comped. All you would know is whether you got comped or not.
RF, here’s another idea: look for new ‘owners’.
Charge for blogs on a pay-per-download basis… and maybe consider adding video car reviews as the something to which people would subscribe to.
Robert,
I currently pay for Pandora – it’s a great free service, but I want to see it thrive, so I pay.
I would do the same for TTAC. I would definitely pay for reviews – so long as the reviews are honest. If a car is crap, say so.
Garage? I’d probably dabble with it to try it out and then forget about it. A 3 year old and a newborn consume most of my free time.
-ted
I GOT AN IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Editorials and car reviews all which are full-length are free. This used to be TTAC, I believe. One big-ass article every day or so. This is open to the public so everyone can read and engage in conversation/debate just like they do now.
News items could be sub only. They don’t get you on the Google search engine by searching for news, people don’t comment on these alot because they’re cycled through pretty quickly, and it’s appropriate because only the HXC TTAC fans or enthusiasts are really going to read all of these articles in detail. And only the HXC TTAC fans and enthusiasts would be happy to pay the fee.
There you have it. Free TTAC circa 2005 or whatever, when it was just a few articles a day. Pay TTAC = fun newsblogs and short articles and the amazing Hammer Time by Stephen Lang. :D
-TTAC reader/devotee since 2006!
@Strippo
“Dramatic much?”
Well, you know what happens when you allow the hoi polloi into the comments section.
“How much content do you think the most prolific 100 commenters provide? Way over half, I can assure you. They provide the glue that would keep things going in the comments section.”
I agree that there is some great commentary on this site. What I still don’t get is why someone would pay to be allowed to make comments along with the big boys, or “B&B.”
The comments section here can devolve into mutual grabass just as fast as it can anywhere else. The careful moderation here makes a huge difference.
Why erect any barriers at all to participation in the site? If it drives people away, aren’t you betraying your mission? This is The TRUTH About Cars. It’s working very well already. Changes to the site could compromise its integrity.
TTAC needs money. Paying to be allowed to compete with snobs holding court in the comments section is not nearly as compelling as it may sound. I vote for a “capital call” from the B&B, and I’ll be the first to pay up. No “comp” will be necessary.
TTAC needs money. Paying to be allowed to compete with snobs holding court in the comments section is not nearly as compelling as it may sound.
It’s not the Porsches being comped. It’s several fleets of Crown Vics one can purchase for the price of a Porsche. But you are determined to twist the idea, so twist away. We’re a literate bunch, mostly, so you’re wasting your time attacking an elitist stance no one is actually taking. Hell, I’ll attack it with you. Die, straw man! Die!
We’re fans of the site, and users who discover TTAC through our site (http://MotorMouths.com) seem to think highly of it. So here are some thoughts, aimed at keeping you solvent.
1. Get your burn rate down. Cut anything and everything you can. Is there a TTAC office? Close it. Outsource any development and design tasks. Are there full-time employees? Make them part-time employees. Are you helping subsidize NameMedia’s backoffice, and their other properties? Cut your ties to them, and buy back your creation.
2. Incorporate video. Don’t spend money on fancy video reviews. Get your writers and contributors in front of iSight cameras, and let them share the same insights and opinions that bring people to the site. Set up a YouTube or Hulu channel. And look at Current TV and BloggingHeads.tv as your models.
3. Forget about the “Garage” and killer app notion. It’s not your salvation. It’s entirely too tough to pull off without money, and you don’t have any. Well-financed players like DriversSide.com and MyRide.com and RepairPal and CarSpace are already claiming most of the territory.
4. Go B2B. Essentially, TTAC is a community for automotive business junkies. It seems as if most of your contributors and commenters either aspire to be in the auto biz, just left the auto biz, love the auto biz, or love to hate the auto biz because they know too much about it. So take advantage of that, and turn the site — or at least a large portion of it — into the equivalent of a trade publication. Become a knowledge base and focus group for industry manufacturers, marketers, dealers, and so on. And charge those people for access to your community.
Whatever happens, we’ve enjoyed the site. And good luck!
@Strippo
“But you are determined to twist the idea, so twist away. We’re a literate bunch, mostly, so you’re wasting your time attacking an elitist stance no one is actually taking. Hell, I’ll attack it with you. Die, straw man! Die!”
Between the Crown Vics and the Porsches, I don’t even understand what your point is anymore. But I do know when I am being browbeaten.
My point is that I am willing to donate money so nothing has to change at TTAC, including the integrity of the site and its authors. That is what I think is the best solution.
A lot more people than I thought have already taken the time to say “see you later, I’m out of here.” They aren’t going to pay to come back, and the site certainly won’t make any money off of charging them to make comments if they did stay. Why get rid of readers you already have?
I don’t even understand what your point is
Exactly. So quit misrepresenting it.
@Strippo
“Exactly. So quit misrepresenting it.”
I enjoy the brisk repartee, but I honestly don’t know how I am misrepresenting your point. I know that your point has, IMO, become so esoteric as to make it practically unintelligible.
If this exchange is an indication, I don’t see why anyone will spend money to be able to experience or participate in a dynamic such as this on a future version of TTAC.
Maybe someone would pay just so they could tell us to shut-up.
In any case, that minimal level of income is not a viable way to support the site. I don’t care how smart the B&B are, they are a supporting cast that exists at the whim of those in charge.
I say everyone gets to read everything, and everyone gets to comment according to the rules. You earn your status as a member of the B&B the old-fashioned way. I can remember when I knew almost every commentator on this site. But it has grown, and despite some mixed emotions I think it is better for having grown so much.
That growth is important. Now is not the time to reinvent the wheel. It is time to pump some cash into TTAC, so it can continue to fulfill its mission unfettered rather than turn itself into a glorified penny candy machine.
i think your “killer app” should come in the form of a downloadable pdf ala “winding road” minus the asinine ads, for subscribers.
that said, i think the subscription or any paid model will kill this site. i think you should sell out to new owners, or jump ship and regroup. this isn’t the end of the world and life will go on for everyone.
I enjoy the brisk repartee, but I honestly don’t know how I am misrepresenting your point.
Of course you do. You’re just being obtuse so that you can make your point over and over again with ever-increasing word counts. And all I’m saying is you’re just the kind commenter who should be comped if TTAC went pay to play. I’m an “elitist” because I think you should be comped even though you’re extremely repetitive. Isn’t it ironic?
Heh. I remember having this discussion about TTAC several years ago. Here’s my two cents:
I pay for only one site – totalfark.com. I like their model – they have plenty of content (and forum access) for all non-paying members, then access to all forum content for paying members.
I think a model like this would work well – leave the standard blog section the way it is, and allow users to comment on them for free. For a reasonable fee, users would have access to a forums section where they could have the ability to post content (blogs, questions, whatever) that only other paying members could see and comment on. If somebody posts something really good, it could be moved to the all-users portion of the site.
By implementing this model, you strengthen the community of your best and brightest, you encourage discussion of topics that the TTAC staff might not have thought of, and you get the potential for free editorial content.
AWD-03 :
March 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I think you should reference another site that was a two tiered setup. Fark. Basically a weird news aggregator, but it gives the paying customers instant access higher levels of interactivity, notoriety for the paying customer handle.
Agreed. I’d pay $25/yr for a “B&B” logo next to my name, plus B&B subscribers get to see articles a few hours (or days?) earlier than non-subscribers. That way, you still get the google links on older articles, but I can get up-to-the minute news.