Yesterday Mr. Leikanger wrote about his frustrating experiences with KitchenAid’s Espresso Pro. The compressed natural-gas powered (CNG) Honda Civic GX also has the option of quenching its thirst with a home appliance. The Phill is an electrically powered, mechanically complex, high pressure (up to 3600psi) pump. The Phill can be a pain to get serviced when it breaks down, and refurbished units are available for purchase. Oops, make that, were available. Honda of America, Fuelmaker’s sole owner, declared Fuelmaker’s bankruptcy last week and fired all of its employees. HoMoCo is liquidating the company’s assets. Huh? The maker of “America’s Greenest Car of 2008,” shooting itself in the foot?
Honda hasn’t commented so far on the apparent demise of Fuelmaker, which also made CNG fueling pumps. There’s no official press release on Honda’s site, nor have changes been made so far to Fuelmaker, Phill, or Civic GX web pages.
Honda bought into Fuelmaker some years back and was in talks to sell it to T. Boone Pickens’ Clean Energy Fuels but was called off. Conventional wisdom with the current economic climate would suggest that Fuelmaker is going the way of Honda’s Formula 1 team and the stillborn 2nd generation NSX. Edwin Black, who previously claimed that Honda is out to box the Civic GX while milking its good publicity, claims it’s a conspiracy.
The Phill ended up costing $4000, twice as much originally planned. Mandatory installation by a certified dealer added at least another $1000, on top of the Civic GX’s MSRP of $25K. Most CNG drivers fuel up in minutes at high-pressure pumps, either at public or corporate stations, rather than wait overnight with Phill.
In the meantime, consumer interest in the GX dropped with gas prices last fall, never mind the benefit of being able to use HOV lanes. Previously flying out the showrooms at thousands above MSRP, they’re now waiting for absent buyers.
Recession + new Insight -> no more GX
Even assuming natural gas was free, at the $5K more than a hybrid civic, + $5K for the Phill installed… that is a life time of gas money. Well, maybe 8 years of gas for a hybrid Civic. + service cost for the Phill and of course some cost for natural gas… so, anyone who is mathematically challenged would buy one of those?
and then still would need to drive a fugly Civc? Well, taste is subjective, but Captn Kirk’s cockpit would annoy me. I’d like an Insight though. There the futuristic cockpit at least makes sense.
and how much electricity does it need to compress natural gas all night? couldn’t I just charge car batteries and save the natural gas? At least you save money on gasoline, the $400 electric and natural gas bill we won’t talk about :-)
The beauty of hybrids is that they integrate directly into the existing infrastructure.
Many computer architectures are superior to the patchwork called x86, but they have all fallen by the wayside for desktop, laptop and many server uses. Compatibility and volume scale are big deals. Heck, even Macs and most Sun Micro products use x86 now. MIPS, Sparc, PowerPC, Alpha and the other challengers have all left the game. Heck, even Intel’s attempt to replace its architecture with the “Itanium” was pretty much a flop.
There is a big lesson in the power of compatibility. Natural gas powered individual vehicles are very unlikely to ever be a significant entrant in the US market. For specialized fleets with their own refueling stations, sure … but not for the masses. Phill was an interesting idea, but way too expensive. The Civic GX is also too expensive. Honda has realized this and is moving on.
Haha, where’s Jack Baruth at?
Honda’s realizing they should focus on one solution, instead of blowing money on 3 different solutions to effectively the same problem (hybrid, CNG, diesel). It’s that or they’re running out of money to play the technology game.
I was expecting CVCC Part Deux from Honda on the 2.2 diesel, but you can thank California NOx requirements for its death. =-(
Another way to look at it is that the US is their primary sales market, and the worst place to sell a passenger diesel.
That’s a lot of investment into exhaust after-treatment (time, money, packaging, cost, weight, etc.) for a market hardly receptive to said powertrain. How many diesels would they have to sell to earn back the investment?
Same question goes to the GX; how many people buy those things?
Given those two arguements, I think that makes a pretty good case to say that both are a waste of money. Neither can financially sustain themselves.
Yes the economics are weak relative to a regular or even Hybrid Civic. What most buyers are really paying for is the privilege of flying solo in the carpool lane on a clogged urban freeway like the 405 or I66. There are plenty of people who are happy to pay $10k to spend 4-6 hours less in traffic every week.
Hwanung:
I think since Honda has very efficient gasoline and gasoline-hybrids they create their own competition for potential diesel/Natural Gas versions.
For VW it makes sense to offer a diesel with 50 mpg since their gasoline cars only get 22 mpg. for Honda that has gasoline civics with 30-45 mpg (hybrid) and Insight coming it would not make sense to have a 50 mpg diesel. Especially since the diesel with all proper exhaust treatment costs $ 2.5K more…. I don’t even think they sell diesel civics in Europe. they have diesel Accords. I don’t even think their diesels are competitive to VW/MB/Fiat diesels like they are superior to their gasoline motors.
You don’t have to be everything, just be the best in the few things you do. They should invest more in full-hybrids, not just the ones they have. The Prius can drive on all-electric and run the AC on electric, Honda can’t. That will be an emerging technology on the way to electric cars with gasoline backup only (like the Volt, but Toyota actually will be the first company to built a good “Volt” that sells…).
If natural gas ever becomes a vehicle fuel, it will be very easy to build NG cars. One can even retrofit almost any car to drive on NG. On the other hand, you can’t just built good hybrids or electric cars over night. That takes years of experience. Experience they waste while playing with NG.
RedStapler: that carpool lane privilege, does that apply to hybrids too, or just NG? biodiesel?
RedStapler :
Yes the economics are weak relative to a regular or even Hybrid Civic. What most buyers are really paying for is the privilege of flying solo in the carpool lane on a clogged urban freeway like the 405 or I66. There are plenty of people who are happy to pay $10k to spend 4-6 hours less in traffic every week.
If you make more than $346,000 per year (about $166.6 per hour), then it’s even financially worthwhile to pay the $10,000 to save 6 hours of drive time every week.
But that doesn’t account for the following intangibles:
1. The corollary that where there are fewer drivers (like, for instance, in the HOV lane), there are by nature fewer incompetent, inattentive, or just plain asshole drivers.
2. Your blood pressure may be lower.
3. Your risk of being killed in an accident are significantly lower when you avoid stop/go/comb hair/put on makeup/shave face/shave legs/eat cereal/read newspaper/do email traffic. Seriously! Have you ever seen somebody eating cereal while driving? They’re out there!
4. You might not hate humanity so much when you get to your destination.
Any or all of these things might make it worth $10,000.
Someone remind me again why the US doesn’t have an LPG infrastructure (which is infinitely cheaper, lighter in vehicles, and safer to use) instead of CNG?
I see the relevance to the KA-editorial. And these units would get heavy use, hours of work several times per week, while my little espresso maker worked for a couple of minutes per day.
Maintenance probably killed PHIL.
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As for natural gas for cars, as USA Today asks: who even knows they exist?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-05-08-natural-gas-usat_N.htm
I do – I have a hybrid gasoline/LPG solution for my Cherokee Jeep. Works a beaut.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/282702/
There can be no solution to our oil based automotive structure without comprehensive upgrades to our infrastructure. The question above as to why we do not have an LPG infrastructure is a good one. Parts of the US are very well suited to Natural Gas Powered cars. At present, the cost of a “gallon” of natural gas is approximately $1.70, a price that inspires lots of grumbling at the Clean Technology chain of LPG pumps that T Boone Pickens has installed at various points around the US, predominantly for fleet vehicles. Last week I spent some time at one of these stations talking to the customers and they all complained about the artificially high cost of natural gas. With regular gas two blocks away priced at $2.20 per gallon, their point is well taken. The Hydrogen Highway in California is being dismounted also, with leaves us with oil based hybrids as our technology of choice for automotive manufacture going forward. The oil company’s resistance to installing diesel pumps is itense, and they are charging around a 25% premium over regular gas. Where may I ask is this electricity going to come from for our nation driving hybrid-electric cars? When I ask the engineers how you charge their particular hybrid product, the canned answer is to plug it into your garage wall. Well, a large part of America does not have garages. It snows; it rains. What are you supposed to do? Run a drop cord out the window sealing the wind leak with duct tape? Get real.
ZoomZoom :
April 9th, 2009 at 12:45 am
If you make more than $346,000 per year (about $166.6 per hour), then it’s even financially worthwhile to pay the $10,000 to save 6 hours of drive time every week.
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$10,000/($166.6 per hour wage) = 60 hours.
So, you are assuming the GX would blow up after saving you 60 hours of time? Where does that come from?
More realistically, if I keep the car for 5 years, drive it 40 weeks per year, save 5 hours per week, that would be 1000 hours saved.
$10,000/(1000 hour) = $10/hour
So you need to earn more than $10/hour after tax to be financially viable. Plus, for many, they would rather spend that time with their family than to work.
Hwanung,
It really sucks that Honda shitcanned diesels for North America, as it would have lent a whole hell of a lot of credibility to modern diesel technology.
Oh well. Roll on, hybrid monopoly.
Wow, LPG is almost as much as gas there? You guys have it bad.
Our LPG is still pegged at about half-the-price of gasoline. There was a point where it got to about 60-70%, due to an artificial shortage brought about by hoarding (when gas prices went down), but now it’s back down to an acceptable level.
Except for CNG retailers like Clean Energy, Pinnacle, etc. that charge a healthy margin, CNG has continued to be cheap. In many places it is half the price or even less at public stations.
I personally have a Phill in my garage. In Austin, the economics make good sense. In addition to the $2,000 federal tax credit, out local gas utility provides an additional $1,500 rebate. With my fuel cost at about $1 a gallon equivalent, it won’t take long to pay for the Phill.
BTW, FuelMaker (the maker of Phill) has been acquired by Fuel Systems Solutions and they are back in business without Honda.