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Ruwen Hess writes in:
What’s been going through my head is 2 trade-offs: Cayman S with or without PDK (with Chrono Plus either way) and BMW M3 Coupe with or without DKG. Beyond the obvious (cost but better 0-60 for PDK/DKG vs. more driving experience on a stick…), what are folks taking into consideration when making that trade-off? Would love to hear people opinions…
Commentator stephada picked PDK when he recently bought a Carrera, but our man Shoemaker was disappointed by the system. Twice. Lack of consensus? Whatever shall we do? More importantly, what say y’all?
64 Comments on “Ask the Best and Brightest: Dual Clutch or Stick?...”
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I never saw anything wrong with the old Powerglide…
@ Commando1 – I’m rather fond of the Ford C6 in my ’67 Thunderbird.
My ’06 Jetta TDI has VW’s DSG dual-clutch transmission. This is a slick piece of hardware with seamless shifts and uninterupted power flow. Scheduled maintenance on the DSG is pricey, but if you can afford a Cayman S or M3 this should not be an issue.
I love my ’08 GTI with the DSG transmission. It puts a smile on my face every time I drive it.
Since we are only a two car family, I had to buy the DSG so my wife could drive the car. It really has not disappointed.
-ted
I drove an 02 3-series with a DSG, and hated it. I don’t see the need to shave a few 10ths second off of 0-60. I love the details of shifting–just the right pressure on the lever to get it into the next gear smoothly, without overworking the synchros, the feel of the clutch, etc. I do think we tend to prefer what we know and what we grew up with, which is probably why I have no interest in owning a hybrid or a battery electric, assuming they ever get a decent compromise between weight and energy storage capacity, as well as something that charges quickly enough to fillerup at least almost as quickly as petrol, And I expect kids coming up on hybrids and EVs will probably look back at ICE as quaint rube goldberg devices. I think of them as the most refined machines on rthe planet.
Ruwen, are you an early-adopting technology embracer? Or are you an olde school traditionalist?
Will you be using the car as your daily driver? And does that consist of a lot of stop and go city and freeway/rush hour commutage?
Are Driver Education or other Track Days in your future with your new Porsche or BMW? If so, are you new at such events? Or have you had any performance or racing training in your past?
And have you test driven an example of both transmissions in both cars, either at the dealer, or better, with more enthusiasm using a friend’s car?
I guess I’d need more information about Ruwan, and his intentions, before anything I’d offer is even remotely useful to him.
Look, if he’s a heel-toe’er with talent and experience, no question he might still be faster with a computer shifting for him. But he may not be having near as much fun.
Conversely, if he’s got to row up and down the gears three times for every mile he covers on his daily commute, the option of putting the car in D and forgetting about it would be most welcome.
So…a little more backfill, please Mr Niedermeyer.
@David Holzman
I drove an 02 3-series with a DSG
No you didn’t. That was BMW’s herky-jerky SMG. DSG is a whole different ballgame.
A3 2.0T with DSG: like sex without the mess.
Domestic Hearse: That’s all I got. We’ll have to see if Mr. Hess shows up to take questions.
I do agree with Holzman though, about the mechanical “connectedness” of an old-school manual. I’ll cop to being a knee-jerk traditionalist in that regard.
Here’s something (unrelated) to toss into the mix, if you aren’t buying new from dealer: I’ve been looking at Cayman vs. built e39 M5 (I know, 2 different cars…) and the engine problems on the Cayman scare me. And I’m the kind of guy who would look at a WELL used BLOWN M5.
Just saying.
I’ve actually had the great pleasure of driving two Porsche Caymans, one with the plain old 6-speed manual and man pedal, the other with the über-auto.
Which one is better? It really depends how you define “better”.
If “better” means faster 0-60 times, or a wee bit of unfair advantage lap-time wise on the track. Or if it means never having to move your left foot except to the beat of what’s on the audio system, then get the PDK-equipped machine. It is smarter and faster than a two-footed human can ever be,
If however your definition of “better” is finding great joy in the perfect shift. That moment when man and machine actually work together and mesh. Seeking out situations that make you use every limb in every way possible in a car. If that joy is more important to you than .0001th of a second, or raw speed at any expense, then by all means buy the clutch pedal.
I fall into the latter camp. I know I will never be Schumacher or Fangio. But once in a blue moon, for a short moment in time I can feel better than them when for that tiny slice of history I came close. It wasn’t some engineer in Stuttgart at his CAD/CAM console that got me there either. It was my brain, my eye, my right hand, both my feet, and a little slice of heaven on earth. Those moments are worth every penny, and every other less-than-perfect shift it took to get there.
–chuck
It depends. Ultimately it comes down to this – what do you REALLY want? If you want to drive, then you buy a stick. If you want to ride, then you buy any variation of an automatic.
There are exceptions; a hardcore time attack car would obviously benefit from the latest and greatest in automated shifting tech. If you view driving as a chore, and cars as appliances, then you buy whatever automatic is the cheapest. Certain, very purpose built vehicles only come with advanced manumatics (the 430 Scuderia comes to mind). But again, those are really focused track vehicles that are still streetable. Other vehicles were made for the individual who enjoys a high level of performance including paper performance and mindless-cruising factor (Bugatti Veyron).
But if you daily drive, but want to feel connected, then you buy a stick. Obviously, DSG is a fascinating technology with superior numbers. However, numbers don’t create enjoyment by themselves. Roller coasters are fun, but piloting a F16 is a whole different experience.
With that said, I would personally take the third pedal. DSGs and other similar dual-clutch tech is good (and has been said, BMW’s SMG is just a head-bob fest, but I’m sure it works well enough on the track, if that’s your thing), but will always ultimately still be an automatic. Also, flipping a paddle or hitting a switch that tells the computer to tell the transmission to switch gears does not approximate a manual; it doesn’t even come close. There is no substitute for rowing your own gears and manipulating your own clutch pedal. All fast automated trannies are fun at first, but lose their novelty eventually. Then you will miss the stick again – if you truly loved it to begin with. Otherwise, you won’t miss it.
In other words, Forza or Project Gotham may be great fun, but still isn’t like driving the real deal. Having a computer drive for you by way of electronic controls is ultimately just like a video game (except, of course, there’s no starting the level over if you mess up badly).
So ultimately, its back to the fundamental question; do you really like stick, or do you really want an automatic? Remember what I said; its about the driving experience in a daily driver/part time spirited driving toy, not shaving a few milliseconds off shift time.
@David Holzman
I drove an 02 3-series with a DSG
No you didn’t. That was BMW’s herky-jerky SMG. DSG is a whole different ballgame.
Ah. Herky-jerky is an understatement.
I guess I need to try the DSG then. But I suspect I’ll still take the clutch. Simple and elegant, and graceful when I’m behind the wheel.
I bought my ’07 GTi with DSG for no other reason than so my wife could drive it too. It is enjoyable to drive, and makes peak hour commuting much more bearable than it would be with a manual gearbox. The sports mode is quite entertaining.
That said, I can’t wait for weekends so I can swap over to one of my 1960s Sunbeams.
I have a 2008 GTI with DSG. I will NEVER get another DSG / Auto.
Yeah, its lightning fast when you want it to be. The rest of the time, I’m not impressed. I’ve driven nothing but manuals since I started driving 15 years ago. I didn’t like the super long clutch pedal travel in VW’s manual, and DSG hooked me on the test drive. I’ve had the car 8 months, and I’ve since decided I made a mistake.
Its clunky at slow speeds, and not responsive around town. Mushy is how I’d describe it. It also makes funny feelings when downshifting into first gear. I had to have the mechatronics replaced due to clunky shifts and surging at low speeds. Apparently this is a thousand plus dollar part and it has been failing fairly regularly on these cars. I just can’t deal with the starting in 2nd gear unless at an absolute dead stop and thuds into first gear. And it up shifts too fast.
If you’re racing, fine. But in everyday use, a manual would be way more fun, and a conventional automatic is smoother. There’s about 0.000000001% of the time driving that the DSG advantages of rapid-fire shifts are desired. The rest of the time, it just sucks. Autos in BMW’s, Cadillacs, Infinitis, etc are basically just as good, but way smoother. That extra 0.5s really doesn’t make up for the DSG shortcomings.
Get a manual. I will never get another automatic / DSG in my life.
If you are a driver of a car and not a passenger behind the wheel you will get a manual. No matter what they call it or what the technology behind it if it isn’t a manual with a clutch pedal and a gearshift lever then it is an automatic. You have to decide who you are. A suburban mall-goer in your suburban wanna-be appliance or a driver.
@ zerofoo
I also bought my ’06 Jetta TFSI DSG for the same reason, and I live in the metro area of a large city. Totally makes sense.
I love that I don’t lose any performance compared to a manual and that it is a no brainer in traffic. It also has it’s moments like the amusing little pops between gearshifts that remind me of a quickshifter on superbike. And launch function is amusing if ultimately slow.
Even though you have significantly more control over it’s operation than an auto…it’s no manual as pointed out.
I loath that if I am making a quick 3 point turn I have to wait for DSG command to work out which direction? how much clutch? confusion over what I am doing with the throttle? – Has anyone seen what the anti-stall on an F1 car does when it is in conflict with the drivers intentions?
And that’s at the heart of the matter here I believe, do you want a NAND gates having all the fun. Do you buy a Cayman or M3 just for transport, unlikely.
With a manual – YOU are the decider.
@Jerome10
Sounds like you may have a bad DSG. The clutches in my ’08 GTI’s DSG only feel “grabby” in really cold weather, and it goes away fairly quickly once the transmission heats up (usually within 5 minutes of leaving my house).
Beyond that, the shifts are quick and smooth.
How many miles are on your GTI? I have 9,200 miles on my car.
-ted
Got to agree with those who said all that matters is personal preference. The difference in performance between all transmission types with some kind of manual element is vastly overrated, even on a track IMHO. (a) Very few of us actually drive our whips on any kind of track, and (b) when we do there are probably 100 factors that will affect our performance significantly more than the speed of our shifts. This finally hit me recently when I took a Skip Barber high performance driving class at Lime Rock. I never left 2nd gear on the autocross or 4th gear on the track once I was at speed, and I could probably drive both courses dozens more times before I nail the lines and braking timing well enough to start even worrying about downshifting.
I think my next car will be a manual, but now I know it will only be because I enjoy driving a stick, not because it makes a bit of difference over even a regular old automatic with paddle shifters.
Domestic Hearse: I’d put myself somewhere in the middle: some car clinics, but no serious track training yet (though scheduled for end of the month – and I foresee many more in my future). If the next car has a stick shift, I’ll definitely be working on learning heel-toe shifting etc.
I’m not afraid of technology (I actually like the iDrive, believe it or not) – but I also like being immersed/involved in the driving (yes that clearly speaks for the stick shift).
The car will have to be a daily driver, but I’m willing to go through quite a bit of hassle (current car is a stick shift, and I’ve been in 4 hr traffic jams without regret – that’s a price I know and am willing to pay).
The wife being able to drive it is a plus, but not a must.
I’ve driven the cars in both editions each, but always at dealers and never hard enough to say anything.
One of the areas I wanted to hear about from people that own any of these cars or have had significant exposures are any ‘gotchas’… the sport modes on both cars change shift patterns and engine response etc., does any of that change with PDK/DKG? I’ve heard that some cars get more aggressive on automatic cause they can rely on it not messing up a shift… In that respect my questions aren’t about dual clutches in general, but these two very specific cars (e92 M3 with the new DKG, Porsche Cayman S with PDK and CS…)
As always, thanks for all the replies and insight…much appreciated.
I drove a DSG A3 and immediately after drove the stick version to do this very comparison. The DSG does exactly as advertised – it’s a VERY fast shifting auto, but it’s still an auto. The experience of driving a stick was not there. Maybe it’s just perception, but the control I feel I have with a manual transmission just isn’t there with the autos no matter how fast they can shift.
I don’t see how a ‘civilian’ could shift faster than a DSG, but it just wasn’t as much fun.
08 EVO X MR. I love my DSG. Occasionally I miss a stick. But that all goes away, on a spirited drive through some canyons, where I’d rather have both hands on the wheel at all times, just in case I mess up. I leave it in sport. It’s already aggressive enough for me, and the car is set up to be a little tail happy.
On my daily drive to work, I let it do it’s thing, until a freeway on ramp comes, and I move the stick left. Push it up a couple of times, to get into boost range. Go in hot, brake hard and deep in a turn, turn and mash the pedal, taking it to red line everything single shift.
On Saturday or Friday nights, which inevitably leads me to sometimes be stuck in traffic. I get to relax in the most awesome Recaro’s ever made, and use the creep function of the DSG occasionally.
Go back to a manual…? Occasionally. But never for a daily driver. Maybe a FD3S or a NA Miata or the new AE86.
Minor correction:
Shoemaker called the Porsche PDK coupled with the Sport Chrono package and set into Sport mode… “Heavenly.”
I ride a motorcycle daily and so when it came time to get a new car for my wife and myself, with her as the primary driver, I wanted something fun yet at least slightly practical. Since she was the daily driver a manual was out.
I went with a 2007 4-door GTI with the DSG, based in no small part from reviews on this very site. Other than the fact the transmission had to be replaced at 24k miles (it is a leas, never ever buy a VW) it is by far the best automatic tranny I have ever used. However their claim to be faster than a manual I dispute.
Swapping gears with the wheel mounted paddles or even the gear shift lever can be fun, but it is not as great as a stick for driver involvement. The D mode is a very yawn inducing automatic around town, 6th gear at 35mph, while the S mode will hold that gear all the way to redline and won’t shift up on you.
However the car takes a second to realize you want to start moving from a dead stop unless you use the launch control which is just obnoxious. Holding 3k RPM at every red light is not the best way to make friends with the LEO’s.
While sometimes the shifts are lightning quick, other times they aren’t. And no matter how fast the car can shift the gears for you, it can’t anticipate exactly when you want to shift.
So in theory, as others have said a great compromise care if you share with your wife. But if you enjoy the sensation of controlling the changing of gears yourself you will probably regret the DSG.
DCTs are a beautiful thing, but remember they are computer controlled.
The 250 HP Euro TT/R32 variants from Audi/VW were programmed for enthusiasts, while the current VW offerings in the US are clearly biased for fuel economy. When done properly, they pwn both manuals and automatics (SMG or not).
The other day I was driving behind a new Lambo, is very impressive. But not sure if that can say to her driver. From the rev I can hear it kind of stumble dropped. Could it be the gremlins in these wonderful SMG trans?
It doesnt appear to me as he’s total thumbs when driving the Lambo. Once or twice i can hear something is not what he had intended to do. Revs dropped suddenly.
It sounds like an ill-tuned car that when step on the gas heavily it kind of stall. Too much gas got dumped on.
But these new V10 or 12 has fuel injection so the carb issues can totally ruled out.
Anybody had similar situation or knew what its doing?
I hope is an isolated incident, or else his 300 grand is all show & no go.
This morning I went to work a little late, as I’d already put in a lot of hours this week. As such, there was very little traffic on the road.
Seeing that there was no one on my exit ramp, I sped up as I approached the right sweeper, cresting 80, taking the turn late to set up the perfect apex. As I approached the entrance I heal toe-ed, strong on the brakes, the throttle blipped, that sweet I6 music blaring, I downshifted and mashed the gas pedal. I was almost carrying too much speed when the road swept back to the left, now tighter. Again, I heel toe-ed, this time to third, perfectly executed, finally, the car took off smoothly when I got on the gas, the outside tires starting to protest, but I kept on it until I exited the turn and could see the end of the ramp. I slowed down, my heart racing, and headed in to work with a big smile on my face.
Also, what chuckgoolsbee said.
David Holzman :
May 15th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
I drove an 02 3-series with a DSG, and hated it.
BMW didn’t go Dual Clutch until this year with the M-DCT in the M3. All of their manually shiftable autos were either single clutch (SMGII in the M3 and M5) or conventional autos. They did sell a few non-M 02-05 3-series with a primitive version of the SMGII transmission that was slow and awkward, which might have been what you were driving.
@guyincognito
Sounds like you had an awesome morning. That’s me going home. Minus the heel toes, add left foot braking… which I haven’t totally mastered either. Sigh. I’m glad I kept my day job.
I have a stick but my next car will be dual clutch. I like using the stick, but a dual clutch has about 90% of the driver involvement and a lot less of the hassle.
I have an 08 GTI with DSG and love it. I do a steady mix of highway and city on the daily commute and often sit in heavy traffic on the way home.
I love having the option of running the gears myself or just letting the DSG run the show in the stop and go mess. It is very fuel efficient and does hit 6th at just over 30 MPH in regular “D” mode which is fine if you are driving for MPGs.
I do not enjoy it off a cold start in the winter, as it does take a good 5-10 minutes to get loose. Now that the weather has warmed up it feels so responsive and smooth. Add a ECU tune and it feels even smoother (I went APR stage 1). I am at 11,500 miles and have had zero issues.
Manual. Period. End of question. Somebody said “driving without the hassle” or something like that. If you’re referring to commuting, I think you mean hassle without the driving. No clutch= no driving. Unless you mean that driving = steering.
I wouldn’t want to own a dual clutch transmission out of warranty. If you are planning on buying not leasing, get the stick.
Sticks.
I very much like a straight-up old-school manual transmission. There’s something wonderful about having to employ each of your appendages to move the car forward. When you’re engaging the clutch your left foot, raising your right foot, pushing/pulling the car into gear with your right hand and holding the wheel with your left, it’s this incredible process where one is so connected with the machine. It’s like you’re in the middle of it all and only you can make it work right and it’s just so cool.
DSG is neat, but I don’t trust electromechanical bits. It seems like there’s so much more to go wrong there. Tapping paddles has got nothin’ on a proper stick. And also you can’t replace the paddles with skulls that have light-up eyes, whereas you can replace a shift knob with just such an item. That right there makes the decision for me.
I’d also like to say one more thing. I reject the “heavy traffic” clause (or should we call it an excuse? You decide). There is no additional difficulty to driving a stick in heavy traffic. In fact, it actually discourages some of the stop-and-go bad habits often formed by auto-only drivers (nearly floor throttle and then slam the brakes – just to move two inches closer to a car that isn’t even moving anyway).
Basically, so long as you haven’t somehow picked up bad habits with a stick, or adjusted your environment so that you’re uncomfortable and not in full control of steering, pedals, and shifter, then you should have no problems in traffic. I actually prefer a stick in heavy traffic, especially when the heavy traffic is on a flat road. No need to constantly stand on the brake.
Anybody around that actually owns/frequently drives one an M3/Cayman S with a dual clutch that would like to chime in? (I suppose a 911 would work too :) )
From what I’ve heard, the different dual clutch implementations seem to behave quite differently.
In my book, there is no tradeoff. It’s manual, and a DSG/SMT/etc is to be considered if and only if you have one foot.
If you can pull it off, have two cars all your own. The pure fun car is a stick, period. The commuter/traffic/multipurpose car gets the DSG
For anything save supercars (and by that I mean Ferrari and Bugatti, not Ms, AMGs, SVT, V-specs, F-Lex and what not) a stick will do nicely, thank you.
I propose a new name for these things, the monkeymission. The DSG is dumbing down the driving talent pool. As if we need any more of that! I see no merit to a transmission a monkey could operate other than to make the less talented feel better about themselves. I suppose it gives them more time to talk on the phone, which is actually quite challenging at times with a manual tranny, but is that really a good thing?
there is an easy solution to the wife issue… Convnce her to love the stick… That’s what I did…
I drove an a3 manual not long ago. It was ok for a manual but not great.
Stick. Easy. Cheaper. Basically as fast. Much simpler mechanically. A manual will always be easy to maintain and fix; I fear that the DSG automatics are so complex that they could be very expensive at some point.
And driving a stick is fun. No automatic gearbox, anyway, is going to shift when I want it to. Only I know what I want to do, so I might as well do it.
I am always surprised when a discussion like this comes up. I see many people claiming that a DSG or SMG or whatever the flavor of the month is gives them 90% of the thrill of a manual. Really? Moving that little stick back and forth is 90% of the enjoyment? Why even spring for an expensive DSG, then, when so many automatics have “manual” sport modes?
No, 90% of the fun of driving a manual is in manipulating the clutch and throttle to get the driving experience you want. Moving that little stick back and forth to pick a gear is maybe 5%, and turning the steering wheel to aim around obstacles is another 5%.
If you want to go FAST, get a DSG. Many people get hung up on speed, though, and seem to think that’s what makes a car fun. I think that driver involvement is what makes a car fun, whether it’s using a clutch pedal or getting good feedback through the steering wheel. I’m not in a competition, so if I have to extend my commute/lap by a few seconds to get more involvement, I think I’m coming out ahead.
i would take the manual or a proper automatic. i just dont see the point in DSG and you’ll never get the proper experience from a DSG that a manual gives. flicking a paddles is not more engaging than having a clutch and a manual shift lever and if i didn’t want to change my own gears i’d rather than smoothness of a normal auto
First of all, I don’t think the question is ever DSG or stick, but simply automatic or stick.
I don’t know who mentioned DSG offering 90% of the fun of a manual, but no it’s not even 30%. If you chose to go automatic then the question is whether the DSG premium is worth it and there I would say yes. It is that much better than traditional autos.
BMW’s SMG – horrible – doesn’t even resemble the dual clutch transmissions I’ve tried from Audi/VW or Mitsubishi.
Discourages the stop and go bad habits of auto trans – Maybe, but no NSFWing way I want to be behind one in Chicago and NY. It just leads to the bad habit of leaving 10 plus car lengths and slowly rolling while the cars in other lanes fill in the gap. You will literally go backwards through the flow of traffic behind these guys.
While commuting, running errands I’m glad I got the DSG. At night when the roads are open I want to swap in a manual.
You will never use the DSG, except on the test drive and maybe to convince yourself its as much fun as a manual.
I had a car with an automatic once. It went out. Guy told me it would be $1500 to replace.
I asked him how much to yank it out and replace it with a clutch & a stick. He said $800.
I haven’t had an automatic car since.
I think it depends on what you will use the car for. For commuting or city driving, any auto will be better than any stick. Especially in Europe. I was an advocate of stick shifts for a very long time, until I finally drove an auto for personal use. The problem is the work of using a stick shift in rush hour, or congested city areas. And the sheer pleasure of not have to bother when using an auto. From that day on, I decided that any car I will have as a daily driver will be an auto. Stick shifts, on the other hand, is better when driving for fun, as so many already have been in to.
Putting it very simply, automatics and their variations represent the couch potato approach to driving. If you want to interact with and enjoy your car, get a traditional manual.
Other issues: manual is more reliable, requires less maintenance, manual equipped cars often have a $800-$1,000 lower purchase price.
bleach :
May 16th, 2009 at 4:07 am
BMW’s SMG – horrible – doesn’t even resemble the dual clutch transmissions I’ve tried from Audi/VW or Mitsubishi.
————————–
It’s been mentioned above. SMG is NOT the same as a DCT. BMW does have a DCT offered on the M3 and rumor is it will be on the 2010 3 series. SMG stands for sequential manual gearbox. I’m not a mechanical expert on that system, but it was essentially an automatic manual. No second clutch system. It did have lots of issues.
Alright, this has to be said,
Why do spouses get a free pass on saying, “I can’t drive stick, you can’t buy one”. It’s not like only a few people are born with the grace and control to drive a stick shift car. In two weeks of driving anyone should be good enough to get from A to B (parallel parking in San Fran, etc., notwithstanding).
When we bought our first car together my wife could drive stick and I couldn’t. Know what we did? She testdrove it, we bought it, and I learned to drive it. It was the 3rd time I’d tried to learn to drive a manual, I’ll grant you, but it was the first time I’d had my own car to practice with. Now, I can’t imagine buying another car that wasn’t stick.
Something else is going on when someone refuses to buy a stick just because they can’t drive it today. Either they’re too lazy to learn, you’re too lazy to teach them, or they’ve never been adequately introduced to motoring. The first time I really got the shifts right; second, hoooold, quick into third, up up up the tack, tap the clutch and into fourth, no pause.
That’s just too much fun to not want. Of course, I don’t have a 45 minute commute in stop and go traffic, so there you are.
SMG was the closest you could get to a racing car in a road-car. It was herky-jerky in traffic (in fact, downright uncomfortable, if you got it in an M5), expensive and sometimes clumsy… but damn, is it great for going fast.
These newer dual clutch gearboxes are something else. Yes, they can sometimes get confused if you want more than one downshift, they’re heavy and they’re fiendishly complex, but they’re downright telepathic when you’re pushing hard.
The last DCT I tried was Ford’s, in the new Ford Focus. Shifts were seamless, clunk was limited to cold-running at low speeds, and power transmission is much better than comparable CVTs or torque-converter automatics. For 99% of driving situations, it’s vastly superior to anything else.
Yes, it’s not as involving as a clutch-and-stick, but then, my definition of “real driving” involves being a wheelman, not doing Scotty’s job for him (I cannae give no more, cap’n!). There’s a good reason most racing series use dogboxes with paddle-shifters or sequential shifters… a manual clutch (though they still have them for starts) just gets in the way. Given the proper paddle set-up, you can be faster 99% of the time.
That said… I would still get a stick… simply because I drive hard enough to break things, and a clutch or a shredded synchro is inifinitely cheaper to replace than broken PDK or DCT parts… and I’m one of those masochists unwilling to accept my shortcomings when it comes to heel-and-toe… but if you don’t plan to drag-race from stoplight-to-stoplight or put in about 1000 miles a year on the racetrack, then, by all means, get the DCT.
So far, none of the comments posted has mentioned the subject of weight. . . The PDK in the Porsches weigh something like 20 lbs. (or did they say kilos?) more than the manual box. That kind of weight might be an issue on a car that competes seriously on a track. Not a serious issue on a road car. . .
EXCEPT on a 911, because all of that additional weight is behind the rear axle.
So I say PDK on both your Cayman as well as M3. I’ve driven both versions of both cars (friends’ cars at the track, not dealer ’round the block test).
NOT on a 911.
Here’s the math
Stick>DCT>Auto>CVT, because we all know CVT=0!
Oh, and BTW, don’t FIA Rally cars and F1 cars use something similar to DCT’s?? Some of you “stick only” people need to get a grip. I’ll bet 90% of you haven’t even tried a DCT yet. They are great, especially if same car is required to be used for commuting and hoonery. I prefer a stick until I get stuck in traffic. Fortunately, I have both flavors and pick accordingly.
energetik9 :
BMW does have a DCT offered on the M3 and rumor is it will be on the 2010 3 series.
It has already replaced the slushbox in the 335i.
WRC cars use a weird combination of a traditional manual transmission and a sequential transmission with dog gears.
Weight is not such an issue on the M3, though it might be more noticeable in the Cayman. 20 kilos really isn’t that much… possibly the difference between a full tank and a nearly empty one. It’s noticeable if you don’t have much power or grip, but neither car lacks for either of these attributes.
Race-cars, WRC included, only keep the manual clutch so you can launch the car without breaking things… after the stage launch, the driver never touches the clutch again, and just uses the sequential box.
It really depends on the application and the execution. I really enjoyed DSG in my VW GTI as well as in the Jetta diesel. I hated the single clutch automated transmission in the Audi R8 and abosolutely adored the manual. I love the 7 Speed DCT in the 2008 and newer M3 but hated the SMG abortion that came before it. Lastly, if you outfit your 2009 Porsche properly, PDK can be pleasing- you must order it in conjunction with Sport Chrono Package to be able to adjust the shift times and programs. You still have to deal with the unfortunate choice of unintuitive buttons rather than paddles.
Cars have 3 pedals. This is not negotiable!
I’d put a built hydraulic automatic with a manual valve body and lockup torque convertor up against any of the best Dual Clutch. Once a computer is doing the shifting, there isn’t much difference, and the hydraulic auto is a much stronger and simpler device. I had a Grand National more than a decade ago that could shift as fast as any modern automanual.
The traditional gearbox isn’t really set up for automatic operation like a planetary gearset is. But damn if the Dual clutch hasn’t addressed most of those issues.
Myself I still can’t get over some other entity shifting for me. It is still an automatic, doesn’t matter what technology is under the covers. What I don’t get is the big deal about the DSG etc. Just because you “know” in your mind that it uses sort-of-exotic technology to do what a simple automatic can do that makes it somehow exciting.
Personally I prefer 3 pedals and 5-6 speeds. Not the double-clutch transmissions don’t have a thrill all their own. But after driving a DSG-equipped ’06 GTI off an on, I pretty much just left it in D most of the time. The convenience is there, but the driving experience became hollow (the GTI’s responsiveness sorta made up for it).
PDK is the best dual clutch gizmo i have ever encountered. although a lot of people speak highly of the M3 DKG i have yet to see if it’s better.
with respect to the Stick, as fun as it can be, i’m an auto generation driver, and i prefer to handle the car and flick through the gears rather than shift it. i have found that driving fast with a stick is deeply rewarding but to the determent of my smoothness in driving (fast). and then when you slow down and get stuck in traffic, there’s nothing like a PDK or DCT to give you the comfort.
I would go for a Cayman S with PDK with Chronosport package…
Repair for manual transmission – change the clutch. $500-$1000.
Repair for DSG transmission – remove the entire system, scrap it, and purchase an entire brand new system. $3000-$20,000.
/end argument.
Driving stick is simply too much fun. Even in horrendous traffic it is better than any sort of auto. Especially on a hill, when you have to constantly engage and release the handbrake, take care not to stall on launches, especially if the disk is getting hot and starting to chatter, etc.
Plus, you don’t have to pay a premium for the privilege.
If you think otherwise it’s probably because you’re not very good at it.