I drove a Toyota Camry for 12 years and 239k miles. My two brothers also drove Camrys. My mother drove a Camry. Even my father drove a Lexus that was just a gussied-up Camry. All these Camrys were bought because there was a time when Toyota offered a car that truly few others could match. Quality, longevity, durability. They seemed to always be two clicks above the competition in virtually all respects. But now, it’s a very different story.
Most cars will last well over 200k miles these days. Issues? Sure there’s Chrysler- and the Daewoo-derived offerings. But Ford, Nissan, and even once lowly Hyundai now offer excellent quality with typically more features for a very fair price. Toyota has been on what can kindly be called a decontenting and blandification spree these days. The former is what everyone does to varying degrees, and Toyota was actually once the true expert at hiding automotive cheapness.
These days, most of the “nice” interiors in a given car class are simply not from a Toyota. A Fit and Versa have far nicer accommodations than a Yaris. Civics and Jettas . . . heck, even a Suzuki SX4 exudes more interior forethought than a Corolla. So where does this leave Toyota?
In my humble opinion, they’re headed nowhere fast. Scion has become a failed brand with cars that look a bit like pregnant lizards. The social equity that the first generation xB and tC have been replaced with overweight blobs that really don’t attract anyone but those few looking for a safe and pseudo-youthful Toyota. If Toyota doesn’t stop trying to inflate Japanese-styled cars for the American market, Scion will become a damaged brand.
The non-youthful Camry has effectively become a Buick. It’s a safe choice. A big car. But it doesn’t offer even a minute level of excitement and involvement that a Fusion, Altima, or Accord can offer. Ditto for the Corolla versus anything else out there that isn’t being made by a nearly bankrupt offering. SUVs and minivans? Toyota still has IT here. But those are niches where profits and volume are few and far between.
Finally, we have Lexus.
I’ll say it right now. If Hyundai ever learns how to market the Genesis, Lexus will be in trouble. If Mercedes ever gets their quality act together and starts winning awards, Lexus won’t have a prayer. The former has the means to undercut Toyota and will gladly do so in order to gain marketshare. Mercedes still has a stronger prestige pedigree in the states and their cars are finally re-integrating the driving experience that made their cars so successful until the mid-1990s. A Mercedes sedan now involves drivers (thank God). Coupes and convertibles? Lexus hasn’t offered a remotely competitive product for over a decade.
We may be coming to a point in the market where offering a “quality” reputation simply isn’t enough. If that’s the case, the Toyota recipe for success will be in desperate need of some extra ingredients.
But it doesn’t offer even a minute level of excitement and involvement that a Fusion, Altima, or Accord can offer.
There is a large percentage of the public that likes as little excitement and involvement as possible.
There is a chestnut about complacency that would be apropos. I just can’t think of it. I’ll just this:
SUPRA! CELICA!
That is all.
Behold the GM-ification of Toyota!
Where are all these cars that usually get 200K? Not here in the second reddest county in Misery, that’s for sure.
When we moved here in 96, we had the only SUV and foreeeen car around. Everybody else was in Big 2.8 pickemup trucks, minivans and seeeedans.
Over the last decade, that has changed. Lots of foreign badges now.
Why? More dealerships brought them close to here in East Bumpkinville and people here got tired of buying autos that were still routinely crapping out at 80K miles.
Of course considering that before the economy tanked, everybody here regularly traded in their car every three years for a new model, I don’t think they’d ever know *if* their car could get to 200K. Here, if you have a car that’s older than 6 years, you’re either a) old or b) outsider PWT (as opposed to the locally born and raised PWT).
Toyota is structured well (not too many dealers, no US union employee issues), but its products are horrible.
I live in Chicago, and I still haven’t seen one new Corolla on the street yet.
The Yaris is popular, but if it is not a good car (I’ve never driven one) then it is going to be turning buyers away from Toyota when they upsize to their next car.
New Camrys are very rare.
The Venzia seems popular, and the Yaris remains incredibly popular (because it is a cheap, well optioned car high quality (still made in Japan) car that basically comes with a free hybrid drivetrain that doubles the mileage, not because people want to have a certain image, many buyers are conservatives).
Right now the automotive industry is in standby mode. Nobody knows when the series hybrids will revolutionize the way that cars are designed or when the Chinese and Indians will make cars that can compete with the Japanese on safety, quality and performance, for thousands less.
The smartest thing that Toyota is doing is diversifying out of the auto industry; I read a while ago that it is buying up rice fields.
John R: May I add MR-2 to that list. Even the Corolla was sporty once, not tacked on body trim sporty either, enjoyable driving sporty.
Toyota has been on a slide for a while, there was a time when you would pay more for a Toyota over just about anything short of a Honda, but since the quality reputation is not as stand out as it used to be people don’t expect to pay that much more, and are even willing to take their chances with the a fine performing Hyundai or Kia since they cost less, offer more, and have a great warranty. So Toyota can’t charge a premium for quality anymore and have been steadily removing said quality. Mechanicals not so much, interiors and fit and finish, yes.
It’s about time someone pointed this out! Toyota is coasting, resting on their laurels, and has been for quite sometime. When it will finally bite them in the ass is anyone’s guess, but it’s a question of when not if.
Toyota is the new GM and Hyundai is the new Toyota.
no_slushbox: Maybe you haven’t seen any of the “new” Corolla’s because they look so much like the previous model. Lord knows I see enough new Corolla S models here in the Northeast. It’s a yawn on wheels, with tack on body spoilers and skirts.
In my above comment the second car I meant to refer to was the Prius, not the Yaris.
The only Toyota I’ve owned is the MR2 Spyder, it was a brilliantly designed, incredibly fun car.
Toyota put more thought into that niche sports car than it put into the new Corolla or Camry.
carguy622 :
The new one does look a lot like the old one, but I can tell the difference and I seriously haven’t seen one current generation Corolla on the road. I have seen a lot of 4-door Yarises; I think people get to the Toyota dealer and see no good reason to buy a Corolla when the Yaris sedan is cheaper and less ugly/bland.
Come to think of it, Toyota’s best product besides the Prius (if you’re into that kind of thing) is the Sienna. A minivan–how appropriate!
“There is a large percentage of the public that likes as little excitement and involvement as possible.”
While talking to a neighbor of mine the subject of cars came up and he commented that he doesn’t like the firm ride of his wife’s A6, which is why he drives an ES3??… a well dressed Camry. I didn’t bother telling him that the A6 with comfort suspension is a softly sprung car with mush for dampeners. If that is firm then his reaction to a genuinely firm suspension could be amusing. I didn’t pursue the point as I figured my words would be lost.
SO yeah, there are folks out there that want to forget how they got to point b once they step out of the car.
While it’s true a lot of cars make it to the 200k mile mark, very few can do it without lots of work along the way. One thing Toyota at least used to be good at (and Honda was better) was building cars that could get that kind of mileage even when neglected.
A lot of Toyota and Honda owners know their cars are built well, and think that because of that fact, all they ever have to do is change the oil and that’s all many of them do. Ever. Sure, there were the Toyota 3.0 V6s that had sludge issues, the Hondas with tranny problems, and other exceptions to the rule, but an awful lot of those cars proved their owners right, and went a couple hundred thousand or more miles without being cared for very well. That type of service out of a car tends to sway people toward buying another one, even if it is a bit boring.
Besides, not everyone wants a sporty sedan to drive to work, boring fits the bill just fine for A to B trips.
Tell me, when has Toyota EVER made exciting vechicles? The AE86 seems like an accident, done by rice-racer afficionados within the ranks, that management swept away faster than you can say Nürburgring. Toyota has ALWAYS been the safe choice, whatever they have been doing. And that’s what the buyers are counting on. Toyota could continue doing uninspired cars for decades on end, it wouldn’t matter, as long as people could rely on their appliance-like quality and reliability.
The main difference of course is that Toyota is not facing bankruptcy.
I think you’re missing the point, and definitely missing Toyota’s core strength: they make cars that most people want to buy.
The non-youthful Camry has effectively become a Buick. It’s a safe choice. A big car. But it doesn’t offer even a minute level of excitement and involvement that a Fusion, Altima, or Accord can offer.
I don’t think that matters. The Camry has comfortable seats, a lot of space, solid quality, great mileage and the best ergonomics in it’s class. And it’s gotten sportier in the last iteration, while the rest of the class has softened to the point where there’s no real difference.
Before I found my Minivan Religion, I looked at every midsizer on the market, and the Camry was the one that my wife and I both acclimatized to quickest. All the others were in some way fussy (ergonomically, the Accord, Malibu, Fusion and Legacy all had something “not right”), cramped (Malibu: rear seat head space; Fusion: chair puffiness, Sonata/Magentis: head and knee space) or far riskier (the Passat was lovely, but the risk is too great). In the good days, Toyota was selling head and shoulders over the competition because it’s what most people want.
Ditto for the Corolla versus anything else out there that isn’t being made by a nearly bankrupt offering.
Again, same thing. The Corolla has good space, great mileage, perfect ergonomics and a (earned and accurate) reputation as the most reliable car for most people’s needs. Anything else requires a compromise (Civic: cramped; Impreza: thirsty; Focus: old; Cobalt: 80% effort; Jetta: expensive).
I’ll give that the Yaris is more of a penalty-box than the Fit or Versa, but it’s not exactly the same class of car. And the Yaris does weigh less and get better mileage than those two, not to mention the Accent/Rio and Aveo. The Yaris has, by a large margin, the lowest TCO of any car you can buy new, and that matters to the reams of people who buy base Yaris hatchbacks and sedans.
SUV’s and minivans? Toyota still has IT here. But those are niches where profits and volume are few and far between.
Currently, yes. When things pick up again, not so much. Toyota has, arguably, the most complete lineup of any maker without as much poisonous overlap as any other full-line make.
If I were Toyota, I would be worried about Hyundai (if they ever fill out their lineup, especially at the upper end) and possibly Volkswagen (if they ever start taking quality seriously). The reason, though, is that Hyundai’s products and actions are very similar (the most, among the mass market makes) to Toyota’s, which, again, is not at all a bad thing if you want to sell a lot of vehicles to a lot of people.
Toyota is the new GM and Hyundai is the new Toyota.
Amen to that, in fact I have said it myself many times.
Don’t give too much credit to ROJI (Rest of Japan Inc.). Honda design has slipped into a coma in recent years, and both Honda and Nissan quality has declined as well. Hyundai is now their equal in many ways, and arguably superior in some.
It is difficult to credit Ford with “excellent” quality based on a few recent surveys, having heard that song many times before. But we’ll see. Maybe the demise of Chrysler and GM is just what Ford needed to change its thinking.
“The main difference of course is that Toyota is not facing bankruptcy.”
Neither was GM in 1971.
Don, I agree with Honda and Nissan. They’re kind of starting to go down, too. Also Mitsubishi should be taken out behind the barn and shot, at least in the North American market. Mazda still seems ok, though.
The ones to watch are Ford and Hyundai, for sure.
Hyundai also has a generational advantage–for people in their 20s, a Toyota or Honda is something your father drove, a tough stigma to overcome if you want the youth market. Toyota tried to fix this with Scion but that hasn’t worked out so well. Hyundai doesn’t have the “father’s car” stigma with Gen Y, and they’re also too young to remember Hyundai’s quality problems from the 80s and early 90s.
Tell me, when has Toyota EVER made exciting vechicles? The AE86 seems like an accident, done by rice-racer afficionados within the ranks, that management swept away faster than you can say Nürburgring. Toyota has ALWAYS been the safe choice, whatever they have been doing
Starting with the 2000GT and going forward:
* Celica (excluding the bugeyed 6th gen)
* Supra (any, bit notably the final iteration)
* MR2 (otherwise known as the cheap and reliable Porsche, or the car most likely to worry Miatas)
* The aforementioned AE85/86 Corolla
* The IS/Altezza (a more raw E46, or a four-door Supra)
* Every Land Cruiser except the last one
* Every RAV/4 except the last one
* The SC400 (aka, the Supra in a tux)
The point, though, is that none of the abovementioned vehicles made any money, and all sold better when they were softened for the mass-market. Toyota is very, very practical company, and is not going to keep a loser in it’s lineup for the sake of heritage or image because it knows it’s not Ferrari, Mercedes or even GM. The iconic Toyota is the Corolla.
Watching GM or VW, you get the impression that they’re not interested in making normal cars and would rather be a kind of mass-market Ferrari. Toyota gives a very different impression.
Toyota=Toaster on wheels
Their cars have become very bland and boring compared to just 10 years ago. I remember enjoying driving a rental Corolla(I had a lot of fun in that car) a friends Celica, or even my aunt’s ES300. Fun to drive, for what they are, quality cars. Now they want to put me to sleep. And the interiors have become as cheap looking as GM’s used to be.
Maybe this is all becasue of the worlds largest title.
The Honda Accord looks to be headed down this path also, what a big fat car.
As far as the older generation Camrys you’re referring to, my mom bought a new ’02 4cyl Camry at about the same time my brother bought a new 4cyl Accord, both with automatics. The Camry, while a reliable and well-built car could not compare to the Accord in driving dynamics, nor did it appear any better built. Both cars are still in my family and neither has proved any more reliable than the other. While I haven’t driven a new Camry, I would doubt that it drives any worse than the last generation. So, at least in my experience, I fail to see how Toyota offered a car that few others could touch.
8 year old trucks being fed to a shredder b/c of rotten frame’s.Now thats quality!
The longer folks keep thier car’s on the road,the faster the “foreign car quality myth”will be shattered.
“The Honda Accord looks to be headed down this path also, what a big fat car.”
Not to mention a loaded Accord is in base V6 Genesis territory.
Hyundai aint there yet. I recently test drove a Sonata as a possible replacement for my 1999 200,000 mile Camry. First, both local Hyundai stores are attached to Chevy dealers, strike one.
While the car had all the specs and content, including V-rated Michelin tires, the test drive was utter disappointment. That car is truly an Asian Buick. It swayed and wallowed even gently driven and the brakes werent there either, strikes two and three.
This company must use focus groups of Americans that want a “quiet ride”, whatever that is.
One thing Toyota at least used to be good at (and Honda was better) was building cars that could get that kind of mileage even when neglected.
That is an important point. A lot of enthusiasts will make recommendations based on theoretical reliability or ease of upkeep, forgetting that most people want ease of ownership and low TCO. Either that, or they forget that the average consumer gets pissed off about window regulators, rotor warping and pump failures on their otherwise-solid Volvo or Merc.
You can be nice to a Volvo 740 and have the engine last a long time. Conversely, you can be terribly cruel to a Corolla and it will probably do the same, and cost you less in the process.
Spot on Mr. Lang. Toyota has de-contented and cost reduced their cars to death. The present Camry is nowhere near to being a best-in-class effort. In fact, the only class leading vehicle in Toyota’s lineup might be the now ancient Tacoma, and it wins only because of a paucity of competitors.
On a global scale, VW is giving Toyota competitive fits. VW hasn’t been able to get its act together in the US, but in the rest of the world they are doing rather well. VW has a much better executed platform optimization strategy than Toyota, makes better handling cars by far, and generally puts a decent interior into the things.
All of the Japanese automakers face a bit of a crisis. Just as the rest of the industry has largely caught up to Volvo’s safety engineering, so to has the competitive landscape shifted visa-vis quality, reliability, and manufacturing productivity. The Japanese makers as a group no longer stand head and shoulder above all competitors by these measures. They are in deep trouble long term.
P.S. The current Honda styling team has driven completely over the cliff. From the comic book Ridgeline to the ergonomically horrible Civic (back seat and trunk) they are missing the boat.
John R :
May 5th, 2009 at 8:37 am
There is a chestnut about complacency that would be apropos. I just can’t think of it. I’ll just this:
SUPRA! CELICA!
That is all.
I will counter with:
LACK OF SALES! MONEY LOSERS!
Toyota could never figure out how to make profitable sporty cars. So they stopped trying instead of continuing to lose money hand over fist.
Let me add another wrinkle into this conversation (which is pretty damn good by the way).
A lot of folks used to purchase due to the brand’s reputation of quality… alone. It’s been a huge deal for most of the last 20 years. So much so, that I would argue it’s been the most decisive factor among all of the ones that consumers consider.
Now the game is changing. You have several brands that have garnered a reputation for quality, and the standards are getting higher as the cars are improving markedly as well.
I believe we’re entering a new realm in the automotive world where quality will largely be considered as a given. It won’t be enough for Toyota to simply stand on their quality reputation and be able to increase their marketshare and profitability.
At this point their fuel economy has been taking up most of that slack… but I see that changing as well. Other than the Prius, which is probably the best halo car ever created, Toyota really doesn’t have any model that stands out as a makret leader. In fact, their cars and SUV’s are gradually becoming less compeitive in today’s market vis-a-vis their peers.
What would happen if Honda and/or VW decided to offer a 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty? I think that would cause Toyota a lot of harm given what they’re selling today.
What if the upcoming Taurus and Mazda 6 became loved by the MSM? I see a LOT of people empathizing with Ford in particular given the current state of today’s industry. They’re almost becoming the ‘Rocky’ automotive brand and if they’re able to market themselves better than Toyota, they will be by far the greatest beneficiaries of GM and Chrysler’s troubles.
I call them as I see them. Right now I see Toyota losing it’s panache among ‘premium’ car buyers and value conscious consumers. The current sales totals are telling that tale in spades.
I am amazed how often I have this conversation with members of my extended family about buying a used car:
“I’m thinking about buying a used Corolla.”
“That’s fine. You will be paying about $1000 extra for the Toyota name. Is a brand name on a used car worth that much to you?”
“Well, it will be more reliable. Right?”
“Not $1000 more reliable. You could use that extra money to get a newer off-brand car with more life left in it.”
Then they get a Corolla anyway. I guess appearing smart is more important than being smart.
John Horner, is that because VW does so well in the Chinese market?
The longer folks keep thier car’s on the road,the faster the “foreign car quality myth”will be shattered.
Admittedly anecdotal, but for reference:
1986 Corolla: 520,000kms. My mother didn’t change the oil for two years after my parents split. Failed DriveClean.
1990 Toyota Van: 435,000kms. Died in a car accident.
1992 Toyota 4Runner: 620,000ks. Burned front headlights in it’s last 100k and eventually failed DriveClean. The 2000 F-150 my father bought to replace it has had three head gaskets already.
Even my old Mazda Protege, an otherwise reliable car, ate brake rotors prodigiously compared to by in-law’s Corolla of the same vintage. My Saab was a rolling nightmare (two head gaskets, transmission, AC, windows, lights, water pump, front suspension: the hits just kept coming).
I currently own a used Sienna with 100,000kms and nothing but routine maintenance in the service records. My grandparents, who live in Whitby and worked at GM have never had a car last that long without requiring something significant, notably their Malibu, which suffered from GM’s intake manifold fiasco.
I’ll give on the rust, but even living in St. Catharines it wasn’t an issue as long as you were a) smart about cleaning the undercarriage and not parking in a heated garage and b) got your car undercoated, which ought to be mandatory in the salt belt.
What would happen if Honda and/or VW decided to offer a 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty? I think that would cause Toyota a lot of harm given what they’re selling today.
That’s a good question, and one I’ve asked of GM. The problem is that GM and VW in their current state will never, ever do this. They level of corporate not-my-problem’ism (born of arrogance) is high, and neither company will ever admit or take ownership of their perception problem in the way that Hyundai did.
I’ve waited 20 years for the Europeans to catch up in reliability with Toyota and Honda, and I’m not holding my breath.
Being the owner of a 98 Camry, 02 ES300, and 02 LS430, I’m still waiting for something to break. They must have really screwed me over with their decontenting.
@psarhjinian:
“Starting with the 2000GT and going forward:
* Celica (excluding the bugeyed 6th gen)
* Supra (any, bit notably the final iteration)
* MR2 (otherwise known as the cheap and reliable Porsche, or the car most likely to worry Miatas)
* The aforementioned AE85/86 Corolla
* The IS/Altezza (a more raw E46, or a four-door Supra)
* Every Land Cruiser except the last one
* Every RAV/4 except the last one
* The SC400 (aka, the Supra in a tux)”
I would say that every choice on your list represents the safe choice in every category. Toyota may have done a million Celicas, or whatever. But it ain’t an Alfa Romeo. What sane people would have chosen a Supra over a 944 or Corvette in the mid 80’s? Sane people, yes. Motorheads, not so much. And you can’t convince me the RAV4 is the “exciting” choice in small crossovers? Come on…
No, Toyota has always done dull and boring cars. And the ones that aren’t are happy mistakes… Toyota has always represented the sane or safe choice, even in excitement. Sane people doesn’t buy Alfas. But Alfisti are seldom crosshopping Toyotas either, unless they want an appliance. And that’s what people are looking for when buying Toyotas. Appliances.
My parents best friends purchased a new 2007 Camry XLE with moonroof and NAV a few months after the car first came out. 3 transmissions, 4 sets of rotors, recalls, interior dash pieces falling off, bucket loads of time spent in the shop, too soft ride that grows unsettling on those long trips to Florida and now gas mileage that has inexplicably dropped off to no better than 22 on the open road has seriously changed there minds on another Toyota purchase. Yes there next new car in 2011 will be the new Fusion. I agree 100%. Toyota is the new GM and Hyundai is the new Toyota. Amazing how quickly things can change. In another 10-15 years it will be a China manufacturer that will be stealing the crown away from Hyundai.
Am I on TTAC? I had to make sure…Thank you for the dose of sanity.
Spot on Mr. Lang. Toyota has de-contented and cost reduced their cars to death. The present Camry is nowhere near to being a best-in-class effort.
From what I’ve read of reviews, I don’t think any car is ever going to be as good as their idealized ancestors. Part of it is that the competition has closed the gap, but the other is that modern cars are made differently. At some point, someone noted that no one really cared about soft-touch plastics in places where no one rests an elbow, or that no one who isn’t a reviewer or having bad sex notices the headliner in detail.
You’ll see the same thing in most consumer goods, for good or ill: no one needs solid metal knobs on oiled bearings, and certainly won’t pay for the feeling of quality if it comes at the expense of TCO. Mr Leikanger’s expose of Kitchen-Aid was an interesting take on this.
But Alfisti are seldom crosshopping Toyotas either, unless they want an appliance
Funny you mention that. I have relatives in Turin who bought their first Honda after years of FIATs and Alfas. They’re amazed at how much the Honda doesn’t flicker, stall, leak or smoke.
The 8C Competizione probably has nothing to worry about, but I’d be worried about Toyota, Honda and Hyundai if I were FIAT, Renault and VW. At some point, Europeans will realize that their storied marques have been pretty, nice-driving money-pits.
Camry = Old Ladies Car.
Sane people doesn’t buy Alfas.
Hey I have some sanity. I loved my Alfa and miss it to this day. You sound like my dad, man he hated that car, he just didn’t get it.
Toyota has always represented the sane or safe choice, even in excitement. Sane people don’t buy Alfas. But Alfisti are seldom crosshopping Toyotas either, unless they want an appliance. And that’s what people are looking for when buying Toyotas. Appliances.
This is why you need a Toyota and an Alfa to be truly contented! (Which leads us full circle back to the 700 cars per 1000 citizens debate.)
I’ve met perhaps 2 dozen Lexus owners in my life and each of them admits that Lexus is the most boring luxury car ever. Most of them regard boring as something Toyota ought to charge them for.
We’ve owned Mercedes, Infiniti, BMW. In terms of what my wife wants from a car, none compared to her Lexus coupe. She drove it for 8 years and it never once went into the shop for anything. The build quality was amazing. Not a single squeak or rattle or hum anywhere. Also amazing was the customer experience at the dealership when she brought the car in for oil changes.
My wife wants a nice car she doesn’t have to think about — ever. Everything on her Lexus worked the way it’s supposed to.
Not true with her Infiniti G35 coupe. It’s always in the shop getting this or that looked at. She’s not getting charged and the dealer is very accommodating. But each time there’s another problem, she sighs and wishes she hadn’t wrecked her Lexus because she’d rather be driving it.
Toyota knows what it’s doing. They’ve engineered the personality out of Lexus in precisely the way their customers want.
I wouldn’t count Toyota out. That the competition is catching up with their build quality is probably true. Yeah, their styling couldn’t be more bland. But Toyota will still have a lock on customers prepared to pay for boring, bland, consistent high quality.
I’ll agree with most of what you said, and our main car is a Toyota (’03 Matrix XR with a stick – it’s actually pretty fun). But even that has a lot of hard plastics and wear on the interior was visible pretty quickly. That said, I’d pick it again (a first-gen XR stick, not the current mess). We’re only at 92k miles, but not a thing has gone wrong with it.
But there’s not a lot that’s appealing in the Toyota line-up, unless you like appliances. But that’s the key. People who buy Toyotas are buying appliances. Just like they get a Maytag, they buy it because (they expect) it will last a long time and do what it’s supposed to do. For most people (my wife included), it’s not about point A to point B, it’s only about point B. Even if the quality and the interior aren’t what they used to be, the perception of Toyota being better in those areas is still high.
But now that safe appliances has resulted in a 40+% decline in sales last month, I’m guessing all bets are off. I expect Toyota will wake up and begin to reinvent themselves as much as possible while still trying to appeal to the masses. With their name and reputation, who knows.
Oh, and I like the manual Lexus IS 250. I consider that a competetive product. (Considering the competition, I expect the RX is competetive as well.)
I’ve always pictured Toyota as overpriced alternatives to Honda.
I’ve owned many Civics, and an Odyssey, which is where Honda screwed me – the transmission on the van.
Yeah, yeah, I hear they’ve fixed it now. I know a lot of people who drive Honda vans, But we had to go buy a Toyota Sienna.
Boring, but it’s a minivan. If I wanted to spice it up I’d put those big spinner hubcaps and paint flames on the side and maybe a big rear spoiler.
We’ve had issues with the sliding doors (not alone, lots of people really pissed at toyota over their doors), cheap trim in general, and worse still is the customer service manager at our local (and only) dealership. So this is our last Toyota.
Maybe I’ll buy a Fiat minivan next?
But now that safe appliances has resulted in a 40+% decline in sales last month, I’m guessing all bets are off
I don’t think this is a Toyota problem but rather an industry problem. Most marques are off 30-40%, and Toyota had much further to fall from LYTD than, say, Ford or GM.
Right now, with the exception of Hyundai (who are playing the value card in combination with their buyback program), everyone is more or less in lockstep decline.
psarhjinian:
From what I’ve read of reviews, I don’t think any car is ever going to be as good as their idealized ancestors.
Exactly. I’ve had seat time in the following Toyotas: 1991 Corolla, 1996 Camry (the vaunted 3rd gen), 2002 Camry (5th gen), 2004 Sienna, with the latter two in our stable. Interiors have improved over the years, although they’re not class leading. But appliances are what American consumers buy, and as Pch101 said not recently, the US is a hard place to be without a car and we’re very car dependent. Just getting routine maintenance on our cars is a PITA given our busy schedules, an unscheduled repair for us is a hardship.
Although a few Toyotas have gotten black marks for reliability, i.e. 2007 Camry V6, the vast majority are still very good appliances. In other words, the polar opposite of what the TTAC average commenter wants, or at least claims to.
“Toyota is very, very practical company, and is not going to keep a loser in it’s lineup for the sake of heritage or image because it knows it’s not Ferrari, Mercedes or even GM. The iconic Toyota is the Corolla.
psarhjinian: I agree.
We can bitch all we want about why Toyota doesn’t make any exciting models much anymore (I know I bitched quite a bit when they canned the last Celica without even so much as a replacement in sight) but when it all boils down to it, they know what they’re doing.
The Camry (and to an extent, the Corolla) is an example of this. The Camry exudes comfort, is smooth, spacious, reliable and powerful enough to suit most people’s needs – plus if people feel want to feel (or look) sporty, Toyota has a Camry to suit their needs as well. So in a sense, there’s a Camry for everyone, which is one of the main reasons why it sells so well.
Take the Honda Accord for example.It has always been a driver’s car (perhaps not as serious as say, a Mazda6) but from my experience beginning with an ’88 2 door (my dad had a J-Spec ’89 sport sedan) the Accord has always appealed to the driver who wants to feel what the front wheels are doing. In that respect, Honda doesn’t so much as make an outright sports sedan (there’s still some comfort in those springs) but tries to appeal to everyone using one basic suspension setting. Not many people want to go that route (especially since the dash has become so ergonomically challenged).
Hate Toyota for the single exciting model (FJ Cruiser anyone?) but in terms of business, they have that covered pretty well. They should however, be wary of Hyundai.
no_slushbox,
I live in Chicago, and I still haven’t seen one new Corolla on the street yet.
The Yaris is popular, but if it is not a good car (I’ve never driven one) then it is going to be turning buyers away from Toyota when they upsize to their next car.
New Camrys are very rare.
The Venzia seems popular
what part of Chicago do you live in where you dont see new Camrys or Corollas yet you see Venzas? I live in Chicago too and all I see are new Camrys and new Corollas and Ive seen maybe 2 Venzas.
We really liked our ’95 Toyota. It was an excellent car. We got top dollar for it two years ago. The purchaser still loves it.
An Infiniti replaced it. Why not another Toyota? They look like el strippos. Nice items are in profit-boosting option bundles forcing the buyer to pay through the nose for desirable features. Toyota’s reputation for quality and integrity has taken a shit kicking. Consumer Reports is unimpressed with the interior quality of its Venza, and will not recommend it without confirmed reliability information.
AG (above) nailed it. The GM-ification of Toyota.
@Psarhjinian: “I have relatives in Turin who bought their first Honda after years of FIATs and Alfas. They’re amazed at how much the Honda doesn’t flicker, stall, leak or smoke.”
I didn’t mention Honda, did I? Honda is the poor man’s BMW. They make appliances with a pulse. Exactly the kind of sane choice people who wants more than an appliance would buy. And that’s why they are selling…
But of course, this is all over-simplification. Since at least ten-fifteen years, there are no major quality differences between any major makers, sans the american domestic Ford, GM and Chrysler. Everybody else managed to raise the stakes to keep on par with Toyota. That’s why the Golf IV and euro Ford Focus leapfrogged their predecessors. For GM and Opel, it took until the latest gen Astra and Malibu to be on par. When Even Citroen/Peugeot/Fiat/Alfa has no more faults than the rest of the bunch, there isn’t much to say. Though both Volkswagen and Mercedes is in dire straits concerning the difference between their percieved and real quality.
@Redbarchetta: “Hey I have some sanity. I loved my Alfa and miss it to this day. You sound like my dad, man he hated that car, he just didn’t get it.”
Sane people are often very boring. Cars are bought with the heart, and people buying cars with the brain end up with Toyotas or Hyundais. I mean, I have a Citroen DS. How sane is that?
I would agree that Toyota’s legendary “quality” has definitely declined, but I would argue that their reputation is still much better than the competition’s. I also don’t think that quality is consistent across the board. I purchased a 2004 Ford Focus ZTW, which had apparently been significantly re-engineered, and had much higher quality than the initial Focus. Well, mine was in the shop 13 times by it’s second year for a variety of issues, from brakes, jammed sunroof, broken power lock motors, jammed cd player, cracked serpentine belt, windshield wipers that worked sporadically… it was a new problem every few weeks. I traded that car on what i thought would be a reliable Mazda5. This car has serious suspension issues, which Mazda is aware of, and has yet to come up with a fix for. I’ve had my front and rear bushings replaced 5 times now, as well as the front and rear control arms, and the right rear shock. I don’t think the chassis was designed to handle any real weight directly over the rear wheels, as anytime I take a road trip with any passengers back there, the camber on the rear wheels gets significantly knocked out of place. I’m not putting huge people back there either. The brakes and rotors are a joke as well, mine needed replacing at the 23,000km point… which is a little ridiculous. I’ve had a few other issues as well.
My point is, while Toyota’s quality may have slipped, they deal with their defects in a much more generous fashion than other makes. Weren’t they offering to buy back 8 year old tacoma’s because of rust forming on the frames, even if you were not the original owner? Has Mazda or Ford offered to buy back my cars for their defects? No. I think Toyota would really have to screw up their product line, and really degrade their customer service before they start loosing buyers in droves, which is what happened to GM.
I disagree with the Toyota fan defense that they are actually building what people want. What they are doing is providing the image that consumers want, an image that is entirely informed by the common knowledge that Toyota makes reliable, sensible cars. If you bought the Toyota you can tell yourself that you made a wise decision, and are a (visibly) better person for it.
So Toyota no longer makes very good cars (I’ll acknowledge there are decent exceptions)…how long did it take for that same message to get through to the GM faithful? For years everyone who knew about the competition (mostly people like us, only less so) was busy annoying dinner guests with tales of GM incompetence. It simply did not make much short-term difference. It’s gonna take a least a solid decade of noticeably inferior product for the same to happen to Toyota. Good thing then, that we’re already into that decade, with early warning signs cropping up everywhere that the company is fast losing respect.
For what it’s worth, I actually enjoy driving Honda product in general (SUV’s and trucks absolutely excluded from that praise) but I think that they’re equally at risk of losing their shine. What, exactly, is Honda’s famous R&D machine producing for the civic and accord buyer?
mikey: The longer folks keep thier car’s on the road,the faster the “foreign car quality myth”will be shattered.
Not as long as vehicles like my mother-in-law’s 2005 Malibu are still on the road.
One ride in her Malibu is enough to remind me of why I bought a Honda, even though my 2003 Honda Accord currently has 113,000 miles on the odometer, while her Malibu has only racked up 45,000 miles.
Ingvar: Since at least ten-fifteen years, there are no major quality differences between any major makers, sans the american domestic Ford, GM and Chrysler. Everybody else managed to raise the stakes to keep on par with Toyota.
VW isn’t on par with Ford in the U.S., let alone Toyota.
Ingvar: Though both Volkswagen and Mercedes is in dire straits concerning the difference between their percieved and real quality.
In the case of VW, the “real” quality is every bit as bad as people think that it is, and while Mercedes is improving, it is hardly out of the woods.
tedward: So Toyota no longer makes very good cars (I’ll acknowledge there are decent exceptions)…how long did it take for that same message to get through to the GM faithful?
Chevrolet began declining in the late 1960s, and the rest of GM followed in the mid-1970s. At that time, there wasn’t an internet, with sites such as this one or Edmunds.com, where angry, disgusted owners could vent or warn potential buyers away.
Unless the problem was a huge one – the defective motor mounts on 1965-69 Chevrolets with a V-8 engine, or the myriad problems afflicting the Vega – it was buried within the local paper, if it made the news at all. Not many people read Consumer Reports, and the results of its annual reliability survey were not plastered all over the media like they are today.
Bad news travels MUCH faster today. If Toyota quality does decline dramatically, it won’t take 30+ years before the company finds itself in real trouble.
The whole point is that of percieved and real quality. And that Toyota with its deliver-on-time revolutionized the industry in a way not seen since the days of the Ford Model-T. And every other maker had to adjust, some better, some for worse. Since the 80’s and until now, adjustments have been made throughout the industry. And what Toyota is facing is not that they make anything different, but that everybody else makes the same as they, and better. Except for Detroit. The whole Detroit meltdown can be seen as a failure to adjust. Their whole system of making cars have been rendered obsolete.
For Toyota to fall, it will have to have A LOT of epic failures. For them, it is enough to just be reliable with a few problems here or there.
Think about how loyal people were to Ford and GM for DECADES, even while being sold crap by crappy dealers who gave crappy service.
Well, multiply that loyalty by 5 and that’s how loyal people are to their Corolla or Camry (or Accord/Civic).
People don’t like change. Change is scary. People also want to be told what is best for them.
Toyota = reliability
Honda = reliability
Until either one of these folks REALLY screws the pooch, there is nothing else to discuss.
Ingvar: And what Toyota is facing is not that they make anything different, but that everybody else makes the same as they, and better. Except for Detroit.
No, everyone has not matched Toyota quality. VW certainly hasn’t, and neither have most of the Europeans, according to AMERICAN quality surveys.
The European surveys may provide different results, but that is because Europeans generally drive their vehicles less, are more willing to tolerate minor faults, and are more likely to receive their vehicle as a company perk (which means that they don’t have to pay for it, which means that repairs don’t concern them as much).
In the U.S., VW and most of the Europeans have not yet matched Toyota quality. A VW is less reliable than a Toyota, not to mention a Ford. That’s not perception; that’s a fact.
Great article, Mr. Lang. I’ve also noticed and have been saddened by the crapification of Toyota. I loved my parents’ old ’96 Camry, but despise their new ’09. However, I am still a fan of the Sienna (I’d have bought one but my wife couldn’t accept owning a minivan), but I worry what they’ll do to it when it’s redesigned.
I’d predict a fall from grace for Toyota very soon, but it’s not clear to me who is ready to take over their reputation for quality combined with mass-market appeal. I would say Honda, but their sales don’t seem to indicate a broad acceptance of the brand. I think Honda’s quality is there, though: I drove a ’96 Accord for 190K miles until it was totaled, and put 74K miles in 3 years on an ’02 Civic with hardly a hiccup. I now own an ’05 Pilot with 51K miles and zero problems, and it feels like it’s ready for the long haul.
Isn’t it Europe that has a higher standard than america? Aren’t cars made for Europe of better quality than the crap they ship to your shores? I’ve read somewhere about the japanese making three versions of everything, one for the japanese domestic market (cars are generally narrower there), one cheapened out and dumbed down version to sell on the cheap in the states, and one version with better safety and quality for the european market? I’ve read that there’s a big difference in how the cars are made, cars for Europe has almost double the welding spots, for safety reasons. Most of Nissans cars for Europe is made in Europe as well. There’s a big difference in the Corolla between the european and american versions. And so on…
I would say that the reality is the exact opposite: the europeans use their cars harder than the americans, and are less forgiving for quality problems. That’s why the american domestic cars are almost non-existent in Europe. The only american cars sold in any numbers are the ones that actually fills a niche, like Jeep or the Chrysler mini-vans…
It is fairly clear that in any endeavor, success is often followed by hubris. Toyota’s current success has become a hungry master that requires increasing profits to be satisfied. Like GM, the glory days of Toyota were driven by engineering; but now the accountants are in charge and the ethos of “continuous cost-cutting” is replacing “continuous improvement.”
Perhaps they can avoid the mistakes of the past.
We shall see…
It was just about 10 years ago that VW did offer a 10/100 powertrain warranty in the U.S.. On some 1995.5 and 2000 models, anyway.
I know this because it was under that warranty that VW of North America paid to have the entire motor in my 1999.5 New Jetta TDI replaced at 42,000 miles.
Offer all the warranty you want. To quote Chris Farley as the title character in Tommy Boy:
Tommy: Let’s think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I’m listening.
Tommy: Here’s the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box ’cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: ‘Course it does. Why shouldn’t it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?
[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing too]
Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What’s your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn’t a crazy glue sniffer? “Building model airplanes” says the little fairy; well, we’re not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that’s all it takes. The next thing you know, there’s money missing off the dresser, and your daughter’s knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.
Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That’s all it is, isn’t it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer’s sake, for your daughter’s sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
Now, with that said, I went on to buy as new (and still have) an ’03 GTI, and I am currently considering buying a leftover new ’08 R32.
I do, however, keep about $300 worth of tools and $200 worth of spare parts in the GTI’s hatch at all times. I never know when the next coil pack, switch, fuel filter or sensor will give up the ghost.
First off – people who defend a car company are not always “fans” or “fanboys”. It’s just an increasingly common way to strawman someone you disagree with.
As far as the actual debate, I have to say: Toyota’s approach to improvement and innovation is still unparalleled. Not only is their production system amazing, but they have bothered to teach it to their own competitors, who don’t even learn from the example because they’re too busy trying to suck their companies dry.
Hyundai may build cars that look Lexus-like, but that whole “relentless pursuit of perfection” Toyota embarked upon is a serious business to them, and they know how to execute. Read around online and it’s hard not to get the impression that the top-drawer Lexii kick the complete crap out of BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, and VW when it comes to cars that will even be reliable beaters with 200k miles. Look at the classifieds: once-proud $100 Mercs are worth less than the valve jobs it would take to keep them running.
All of a sudden it’s become fashionable to hate on Toyota. Hey, I wouldn’t buy any of their cars either, because I *like* driving. But a lot of people don’t like driving, or don’t live in areas where it makes one bit of difference whether or not you’ve got 500 horsepower because you can’t use it without going to the track. Why should those people want stiff enthusiast suspension in their people movers? And, since apparently the youth of today are more disinterested in automobiles than they have been since their invention, that may not be a bad strategy.
Toyota actually thinks long term, unlike GM, and good corporate citizenship is built into the company at a deep level. All of a sudden people hate on them, but I guarantee that if more companies were like Toyota, we wouldn’t have had this kind of economic downturn, fueled by short-term thinking and greed. I don’t want to sound like a fanboy – like I say, I would never spend money on any of Toyota’s current lineup – but all this attacking smacks of pent-up jealousy for the Japanese approach to quality. It’s a path that many Americans never quite understood, even while their Skylarks fell apart around them, and now they’re just gleeful to shout about the downfall of the brand that kicked American carmakers’ collective asses fair and square.
Ingvar: Isn’t it Europe that has a higher standard than america? Aren’t cars made for Europe of better quality than the crap they ship to your shores?
To cross-post from another thread. In short, I don’t believe for a second that Europeans supposedly keep the best stuff for themselves. The North American market is the largest on the planet, and deliberately shipping crap would be suicide.
Not that, say, VW couldn’t be that stupid. But I don’t think they’re deliberately sending us crap; I think they’re benefitting from Europeans’ lower standards for mechanical reliability.
“I mean, I have a Citroen DS. How sane is that?”
You do? Write a capsule road test and send it to Farago; I’ll bet he’d print it. I’m serious…I’ve always kinda wondered what they were like, but I never even see one, let alone get a chance to ride in or drive one. I may not be the only one who’s curious….
Ingvar: Isn’t it Europe that has a higher standard than america?
No, judging by reliability standards, they certainly don’t. Europe still buys lots of Renaults, Citroens and Fiats – all vehicles that failed here because of lousy quality.
Ingvar: Aren’t cars made for Europe of better quality than the crap they ship to your shores?
If that is the case, it explains why VW loses money in the U.S.
Ingvar: I’ve read somewhere about the japanese making three versions of everything, one for the japanese domestic market (cars are generally narrower there), one cheapened out and dumbed down version to sell on the cheap in the states, and one version with better safety and quality for the european market?
The Japanese cars sold in America tend to be bigger, more softly sprung and have different levels of equipment. (Manual transmissions aren’t critical to success in America, and Americans demand superior heating-air conditioning-defrosting systems). That doesn’t mean that the quality is lower.
Ingvar: I would say that the reality is the exact opposite: the europeans use their cars harder than the americans, and are less forgiving for quality problems.
Then please explain why, in every reputable quality survey conducted in America, European cars score at or near the BOTTOM, below many AMERICAN cars.
Ingvar: That’s why the american domestic cars are almost non-existent in Europe.
American cars are not imported to Europe because the two largest American companies – GM and Ford – have European subsidiaries that sell vehicles engineered, styled and built with Europeans in mind. Why should they compete with themselves?
Plus, the vehicles that they sell in the U.S. that do not have a counterpart in Europe are too big and use too much gas for most Europeans.
How many Europeans want to drive an F-150 through Paris? Or try to park a Tahoe in London, let alone pay for the gas to run it?
“.Hey, I wouldn’t buy any of their cars either, because I *like* driving. But a lot of people don’t like driving, or don’t live in areas where it makes one bit of difference whether or not you’ve got 500 horsepower because you can’t use it without going to the track.”
And those people are increasingly buying Hyundais.
It’s not 1986. Toyota isn’t just competing against Tempos, K-cars, and Excels anymore. And I still maintain Toyota (and to a lesser extent Honda) are going to have trouble with Generation Y due to the “Mom and Dad’s car” stigma. The same stigma that turned their Toyota-driving parents off to Oldsmobile and Buick.
I’ve always had the thought that Toyota was simply the Asian GM. Especially now with the plethora of nicheish products. The amount of SUV and Crossover’s they offer is a little extreme. The Rav4 has grown so large it negates the highlander. The Sequoia is bigger than the Land Cruiser but is $30k less than the Land Cruiser…. What? In between we have Ye olde 4 Runner. Now we have the Venza. I’m no product planner, but isn’t it all a bit much?
On the car front it clear that all their offerinigs are Ambien on wheels. Having just recently purchased a Jetta (for a great price) I was looking around at different cars in the class. I honestly couldn’t fathom having the Corolla in the same class as the Jetta price wise. The interior was penalty box bad, The Cobalt looked better. Besides the fact that it was beyond ugly, the only thing it had going for it over the Jetta was gas mileage. The interior space, quality, looks, features, all were better in the Jetta over the Corolla, and the price I paid put it squarelly in the mid level Corrola range. I’m willing to take the risk on reliability if that doesn’t mean that I have to deal with a toaster on wheels.
imag
“Toyota’s approach to improvement and innovation is still unparalleled. Not only is their production system amazing, but they have bothered to teach it to their own competitors, who don’t even learn from the example because they’re too busy trying to suck their companies dry.”
The entire point of the recent Toyota critiques is that they do not improve their products sufficiently and that they have not introduced innovative technologies to the bread and butter models (hybrid excepted). The Camry/Corolla criticism specifically is that neither is as good to drive as their competitors because of unimproved and poorly finished (dynamically) suspensions and steering units. They really just aren’t thoroughly developed in all the areas that count. Maybe they saved money and time in these areas and devoted it to reliability testing instead, I don’t know. Like you, I’m not buying one either way, but I despise Buick for all the same reasons (and they also have a good reliability rep) so I think the real double standard would be in letting Toyota off the hook.
Toyota definitely did revolutionize auto manufacturing, but like you yourself pointed out, the competitors have caught up (irrelevant if Toyota got their first if we’re evaluating their current product).
geeber
Excellent point about the internets. Hyundai’s meteoric rise could probably be considered exhibit A. Still, I don’t think an immediate turn-around in company fortunes is possible without a major freaking stimulus. Casual car shoppers don’t reach the comment/forum threads in their research (I don’t think).
2002 Camry LE owner here. Bought it to replace the 95 Probe GT station car.
1995 Probe GT – Original Clutch, rotors…only required fluid changes, brake pads and 02 sensors at 100K. Took 13 years, 130K before the car asked for anything else (sensor in the distributor started to bite the dust, chrome rim corroded and wouldn’t hold seal) I enjoyed driving that car right up to the very end.
The Camry? Completely forgetable. The dash design stinks. The “refined powertrain” is nothing but a buzzy four-banger that runs out of breath bout 5K rpm hiding behind motor mounts that do their best to hide the parkinsons syndrome patient under the hood. I happen to have a (rare for the US) manual transmission version. Speed shifts are out of the question as the revs climb 250-500rpm as soon as you shift. Handling SUCKS. I drive slower now. the car is so boring and softly sprung that you automatically do the speed limit where ever you are. It sucks the life out of driving. I go from the Camry to our Mazda6 wagon and the Mazda feels like a sports car.
why did I get it? I needed a station car that I wouldn’t have to worry about putting money into.
I rather put my money into my motorcycle than into a car that is going to sit in the train station parking lot.
Man, I like this Hammer Time series. Always well-written, informative and entertaining.
What I think is that Toyota will stop selling valium on wheels when the American market stops wanting it. There is no Camry sold in Europe — but there is a Avensis, which is an altogether nicer, non-boring car. Demand it, and you’ll get it.
Let me give you a practical exercise to put Toyota’s current situation into perspective. Head on over to the Toyota, Scion, and Lexus websites. Count all the models each brand sells, then add together the sum. Now do the same for Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, and whatever other comparable companies you want.
All done? Okay, hopefully you noticed something amiss. Nissan makes 21 cars in total; Honda makes 16 (that’s counting the Clarity, which you can’t actually buy, and the S2000, which is doomed); Hyundai/Kia make 20; Subaru makes four (counting the Legacy and Outback together). And Toyota?
Toyota makes twenty nine (29) models. That’s still lagging well behind GM (which makes FIFTY by my count), but it should give pause to interested onlookers. Toyota makes nearly twice as many models as Honda, and for the life of me I can’t figure out what for. Do they really need six SUVs under the Toyota marque alone? Were consumers really hankering for a Venza or an IS-F or an xD?
This bloat wouldn’t be so bad if they could juggle the expanding lineup without running into quality problems, but they obviously can’t. My dad’s new Camry (bought sight-unseen, based entirely on the Toyota reputation) is a mess. The interior is a sea of cheap, hard, nasty plastic with various rattles that show up at different speeds. The steering and driving feel are even more anesthetized than the previous model, to the point where it feels almost unsafe. It’s slower, the blind spots are bigger, and gas mileage never breaks 30. I don’t think even the fanboys can deny that at every level, this car is an embarrassment compared to the Camry of 10 years ago.
As Toyota cranks out more and more models, they seem to place less and less care into the ones that made loyalists out of their buyers in the first place. My dad, I know, is going to swear off Toyota for years to come, and he won’t be alone: consumers may learn slowly, but they do learn, and unless Toyota does some soul-searching very soon they will find themselves one-upped by a smaller, smarter, better company. They should know – they themselves used to be that company.
tedward: Still, I don’t think an immediate turn-around in company fortunes is possible without a major freaking stimulus. Casual car shoppers don’t reach the comment/forum threads in their research (I don’t think).
It’s true that casual car shoppers don’t visit sites such as this. But I’ve had friends and family ask my opinion on new-car purchases precisely because they know that I do frequent this site and others. That meant one less Grand Cherokee and two less VWs were sold. Not much in the great scheme of things, but I’m sure that others have had similar experiences.
And Consumer Reports is MUCH more influential today among the general public than it was when I was growing up in the 1970s.
I actually post to the Consumer Reports forums on occasion. It is depressing.
Consumer Reports will destroy motoring as we know it. All in the name of safety and reliability.
If the federal government doesn’t regulate the joy out of driving, consumer Reports will be sure to convince the demand side to not buy any vehicle that stirs a nerve…or poop for that matter
In Chronological order from 1975 to the present:
1. Civic – 10 years
2. Camry – 9 years
3. Camry(wagon)- 11 years
4. Camry – 10 years
5. Avalon – 3 years – lease
6. Jeep Cherokee – 3 years – lease + own
6. Subaru Forester – 2 years – lease
7. BMW 5 – 3 years – lease
8. BMW 3 – 3 years – lease
9. Acura TL – current
10. Jetta TDI – current
11. Civic – current
Once I would not even look at anything but a Toyota but for our last 3 purchases I did not even go to a Toyota dealer. The reasons are many, but mainly it was because – I admit it – that Toyota was no longer stylish/trendy at all.
“A lot of folks used to purchase due to the brand’s reputation of quality… alone. It’s been a huge deal for most of the last 20 years. So much so, that I would argue it’s been the most decisive factor among all of the ones that consumers consider.
Now the game is changing. You have several brands that have garnered a reputation for quality, “
Your dead right on why some people choose Toyota and Honda but is the game really changing? My experience is that many people buy based on their past experience good and bad. In other words they left a brand because of a bad experience and they stay with a brand based on their good past experience. For the game to really change its not enough for brand B to be as good as or even better than brand A as long as the people buying brand A don’t get burned by brand A. The market is Toyota’s to lose.
In my opinion most people buying Toyotas will stick with Toyota even if another brand is actually better, until they are actually burned and that’s the way it should be really. I’ve got a great plumber a great handyman and a great lawyer and I’m not switching even though others might be better. Is it the safe choice yep. Its also pretty logical and smart to me.
Toyota looks like they’re trying to figure out what to do with themselves right now though their engineering direction (the decontenting, etc) seems directed towards simplification. The Yaris almost IKEA-like in it’s overall simplicity. Unfortunately, it’s about as exciting as flat soda.
psarhjinian :
May 5th, 2009 at 10:02 am
…At some point, someone noted that no one really cared about soft-touch plastics in places where no one rests an elbow…no one needs solid metal knobs on oiled bearings, and certainly won’t pay for the feeling of quality if it comes at the expense of TCO….
Honda has been using hard plastic dashboards that don’t warp, crack or peel like ‘soft touch’ dashboards do in Toyotas and other vehicles, for several generations now.
People who aren’t enthusiasts can easily mistake superficial quality for substantive quality. Piech of VW AG once said, if the car has a well-finished glovebox, people assume the same attention is paid to the cylinder head. German cars often have beautiful well-finished interiors, tactile rubberized trim, upholstered a-pillars, metal trunk lip garnishes, chromed this-and-that, felt-lined gloveboxes with dampened action, etc. None of it’s any good when a bundle of wires in the trunk catches your car on fire, the engine harness biodegrades or an intermediate in your engine bends in half.
Not that, say, VW couldn’t be that stupid. But I don’t think they’re deliberately sending us crap; I think they’re benefitting from Europeans’ lower standards for mechanical reliability.
Europeans, like the Japanese, probably service their cars more often than Americans do which can head off any potential problems.
I much prefer Honda…I consider them better built than Toyotas and more entertaining to drive. They’re also more innovative and willing to experiment (sometimes a bit too much, with the new Civic).
fincar1 :
May 5th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
“I mean, I have a Citroen DS. How sane is that?”
You do? Write a capsule road test and send it to Farago; I’ll bet he’d print it. I’m serious…I’ve always kinda wondered what they were like, but I never even see one, let alone get a chance to ride in or drive one. I may not be the only one who’s curious….
You’re not. I’m curious too!
I love this comment thread. Some very thoughtful posts here.
I’m one of those people who really just need the utility of a car, any time I’ve owned something remotely “exciting” it just caused headaches.
But I don’t buy enough vehicles to have any sway on the market. In my driveway is a 91 civic and an ’04 Sienna. There was one other civic and an Odyssey that we’ve owned in the last 18 years as well.
I’m pretty sure Toyota will do fine. After all, there’s a reason why vanilla ice cream sells so well.
PS: I had my first ride ever in a Miata a couple weeks ago, and dang it was sweet. Not enough room for a family of 5. If I can ever get my kids to grow up and leave home I may have to get me one.
geeber
“That meant one less Grand Cherokee and two less VWs were sold. Not much in the great scheme of things, but I’m sure that others have had similar experiences.”
Haha, same here. I’ve read somewhere (maybe here) a criticism of the relevance of catering to the geeks (press cars for magazines etc…), but in my experience no one buys a car around me without asking for an opinion or at least a starting point first, and usually I get asked to perform escort duty for trips to the dealer. End result is I’ve gotten to test drive basically everything available so I really can’t complain. The stubborn, and not as well informed, brand loyalists that I know always end up regretting purchases and making mistakes (my buddies father with his Forester auto is a glaring example of that…told ya that MT award meant nothing).
My crowning acheivements were talking my buddy away from the (absolutely shit) Matrix (last gen) at a really pushy Toyota dealership and into a Mazda3 and getting my gf’s mom into a CooperS from her old Saab95. Neither one could be coaxed into a RWD car, despite my best efforts, but both have already spoken about option choices for their “next one” in front of me. It feels really really good to push people into the enthusiast camp. Next step, trackdays for the gf’s mom.
When people ask me about Toyotas I try not to be a dick, and probably fail. No one who’s ever asked me for advice has ever bought one.
We may be coming to a point in the market where offering a ‘quality’ reputation simply isn’t enough. If that’s the case, the Toyota recipe for success will be in desperate need of some extra ingredients.
I’ve said this several times here on TTAC going back at least a year. I think Honda is in trouble too – not because they’ve de-contented, they haven’t, but because reliability is no longer the rarity it once was.
As you mention, Ford and Hyundai both give good warranties, and good cars. Both Toyota and Honda will have to add something to their Brand identity. Of course, Ford will have to do likewise. Hyundai, for now, gets to be the value brand – until Mahindra starts selling cars here. The Koreans are not going to work as cheap as the Indians.
Toyota doesn’t need a car with a nice interior. They just need a car that doesn’t break.
Isn’t that all part of their branding? Unbreakable cars that take a licking and keep on ticking?
…well, maybe ‘ticking’ is a poor choice of words…
Isn’t that all part of their branding? Unbreakable cars that take a licking and keep on ticking?
That’s exactly what their brand is. But, when 3 other manufacturers, and in the future, more than 3, offer the same “unbreakability”, then they will have to modify their brand identity.
Reliability will soon be just the minimum requirement for market participation.
Dynamic88 :
The Koreans are not going to work as cheap as the Indians
I’m told countries with cheap labor often means lower productivity to the point where having a factory in a higher cost country still works out better.
Old Guy Ben :
May 5th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
PS: I had my first ride ever in a Miata a couple weeks ago, and dang it was sweet. Not enough room for a family of 5. If I can ever get my kids to grow up and leave home I may have to get me one.
If you think riding in one is fun, wait ’till you drive one. A 1st gen (“NA”) Miata would be perfect for weekends…you can find them in good shape and relatively low mileage for $2000-2500.
The Indians won’t make cars as nice as the Koreans at first, though. We’re going to see an Excel Redux as the first Chinese or Korean entry to the U.S. market, and it won’t be pretty.
The only Toyota I’ve owned is the MR2 Spyder, it was a brilliantly designed, incredibly fun car.
Toyota put more thought into that niche sports car than it put into the new Corolla or Camry.
Yo dat. Loved those cars.
But of course, this is all over-simplification. Since at least ten-fifteen years, there are no major quality differences between any major makers, sans the american domestic Ford, GM and Chrysler.…
That is off base on many levels. Even if you choose to ignore your closed minded bias against anything American (have looked at Ford reliability…lately) there is no way you can say any VW or Mercedes product is as reliable as the King of Maytags (Toyota). Toyota is still a highly reliable brand, and that appeals to many.
Sadly, the world is full of people that don’t give a damn about driver involvement; they care about repair avoidance. In that regard, Toyota still reigns supreme. However, there are cracks in that armor if you look, and they are growing bigger. Japanese, I mean Consumer Reports no longer give Toyota’s new models an automatic pass on reliability. Interior materials are becoming cheaper, and fit/finish on many models is a far cry from what it used to be. Japanese GM may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.
Many people automatically assume Toyota equals reliability, just the way Invgar seems to think “American” automatically means poor reliability. It will take a long time for that to change, but eventually the cat will be out of the bag. Keep in mind that what was legendary “Toyota reliability” 15 years ago would rate pretty poorly today. Yet that buyer still remembers his Toyota in a positive light.
FloorIt:
Camry = Old Ladies Car.
Yikes! My 40 y.o. sister just bought a base Camry 5 speed.
I’m not impressed with it. She seems to be – although she can’t seem to get a decent driving position.
I need to send her over to truedelta…
But it doesn’t offer even a minute level of excitement
That’s simply not true.
Try the V6 version. It’s fast and comfortable without being harsh and bumpy. Pretty much perfect I say and supremely superior to, for instance, a Honda Civic.
I have no problem outracing most people with my Camry V6.
I also have a Sienna AWD minivan. A fantastic vehicle, that I always call ‘the biggest sportscar in America’. Really. Try one in the snow.
(okay, it’s not a Porsche, but you can’t camp out with your children in a Porsche, can you?)
Sometimes I rent a 4Runner: another fantastic vehicle that I use for dirt road and desert adventures.
RAV4 V6 AWD: that’s pretty much a race monster.
Corolla: the perfect car for my mother-in-law, although I personally find them very boring. Just as lame as Honda Civics, by the way.
But of course those are budget cars compared to a Camry V6. You get what you pay for.
Yaris: I took one for a test drive the other day and I found it very spunky and enjoyable. Not boring!
So, I think the idea that Toyota offers no exciting vehicles is just a stereotype.
Even Lexus’ latest interiors flat out SUCK. Cheap gray vinyl everywhere. The S-class makes the LS460 look like a big Corolla.
““I mean, I have a Citroen DS. How sane is that?”
You do? Write a capsule road test and send it to Farago; I’ll bet he’d print it. I’m serious…I’ve always kinda wondered what they were like, but I never even see one, let alone get a chance to ride in or drive one. I may not be the only one who’s curious….
You’re not. I’m curious too!”
I wish I could, it’s not drivable for the moment. It’s a restoration project. Bought it two years ago for 5000 swedish kronor, about a thousand dollars or so. It’s a really late 1975 model, one of the last batch of a few hundred that year. It had been driven for ten years, then put in storage for about twenty years before I bought it. Though I could start it up and drive it around the block, there’s some leaking somewhere in the cooling ducts, leading to overheating. So, I dare not drive it around more than out in the yard and back, to air it now and then.
And the point of all that was to buy a cheap one I could have as a beater, and starter into the Citroen-world. The problem is that it is in such a bad shape, it’s not economically feasible to restore it. I could fix it up and run it until it turns to dust, which would be in a couple of years. Or I could use it for spares, the engine and hydraulics is in pretty good shape after all. Or I could restore it. In the meantime, waiting for money, it just sits there. It doesn’t cost me any money, and it will only be worth more than I payed for it with time. If I continue restoring it, it will be one of those oil-cap renovations. Lift the oil-cap, replace absolutely everything underneath, screw the oil-cap back again.
And if I do that, I have to rebuild the car from the ground up, because, frankly, French ingenuity and all that, but the car has built-in rust traps that would make the russians envy. If I do it, I know it will be done well. it would cost me some ten-fifteen thousand dollars, and the car would be a useful driver for another 30-40 years.
There’s a pretty well built up user network for Citroen-aficionados in Sweden, so parts is really not a problem. It’s all the work that has to be done. And I’m not a welder. Most of the work would have to be parted out. And there are people who can do that. There’s a place that can make a whole original interior, wholesale, for about 5000 dollars. As said, everything costs, we will se what will be done, and when.
But when something happens, I will tell you..
I have to chime in on this one as I have mixed feelings about Toyota. My first car was a Toyota and it was more reliable than anything since (granted it was a corolla with no options and there wasn’t much to go wrong). Looking around I fond most of their offerings lackluster. The only ones I have considered are the scion tc and first gen xb. I don’t know why Toyota doesn’t have steering feel similar to the tc in all it’s cars. Good for a sporty sedan, not a sports car though. The allure of toyota, at least for me, is not just the reliability, but the durability. I have looked at other cars and,while they are reliable, the issues that pop up on occaision are more significant. For basic,trouble-free transport they are great. As a fiscally responsible car nut, there are compromises to be made. The lure of trouble free motoring calls to me because the less money I dump into a Toyota, the more I have to buy something utterly stupid like a fiat x 1/9 or old rx7 for the weekends rather than the compromise of an RSX or something similar all the time.
Also, I have finally understood the call of a Camry suspension. Just drive the Bely Pkwy or BQE here in NYC and you will understand that all cars have their calling.
I genuinely believe that Hyundai is replacing Toyota as the best choice for the average consumer. My perception of Hyundai/Kia has drastically changed since my Mom bought an ’06 Spectra. It’s solidly built, has been completely reliable, can be very economical, I once got 45mpg out of it, good interior room, and basically drives like a Camry: relaxing, cosseting, but completely passionless. And I have driven a Camry, and it’s basically the same thing, only smaller: a quality-built, dependable, comfortable, but altogether boring appliance. The Hyundai wins because it is cheaper, and has plentiful incentives, because of its lousy reputation.
I don’t know about you folks, but I have to get to work, and so do most people. An unreliable car is a luxury. If the economy continues to do what it’s doing, I see reliability becoming more important than ever.