Most folks don’t know a Pontiac Torrent from a Joe Torre. Those of you immersed in the labyrinth of automobilia know that the former is a glorified shitbox. But everybody else? Not so much. By the same token, there are some excellent cars that don’t appear on the new car buyer’s radar. Terrific vehicles that get lost in the shuffle of pointless new names and missing marketing campaigns. As Buickman will tell you (and tell you and tell you), there are an awful lot of excellent cars that don’t get the attention they deserve and therefore don’t sell. And when they do sell, they depreciate alarmingly. Even when the chips are down, or especially when the chips are down, used car buyers are far more conservative than their new car counterparts. Unfamiliarity breeds contempt.
Worries about the cost and availability of parts and service hang over the industry’s lost toys like the cloud of dust over Pigpen. Which makes them stonking used car bargains—if you’re willing to trade risk for reward. Until recently, the Suzuki SX4 was my favorite of these overlooked oddballs. Now? The Jaguar XF. In supercharged mode it’s wonderful. But who knows? Public awareness—or lack thereof—puts the XF on a slippery slope to . . . your driveway? Would you adopt an unloved model?
If you do, make sure the car is thoroughly inspected by an independent expert and check the forums for known problems. And remember: loving neglected models often leads to another passion: car collecting. But that’s a story for another day.
I love this XF, but this is hardly surprising.
Jaguar is having the same trouble pushing their good cars as GM is for the same reason: Because they spent decades building rubbish.
Got invited to a Jaguar XFR and XKR road coarse today. I will write back with my experience. Not sure what will be allowed with a professional driver in the passenger seat but just one lap with the traction control turned off would be a hoot!!!!!
I think with the economy in the shape it’s in, it’ll be hard to tell what a success some cars will be. I’ve seen a few XFs on the road, and they’re beautiful. I think people will eventually catch on, especially when things stabilize a bit and the people that can afford a Jag start to come off of their money a little bit more. This car will catch on, I have no doubt. I can’t wait to see the new XJ.
I love unloved models! I’ve also made a commitment to only buying stick shifts, so that kind of goes hand-in-hand. And I love station wagons.
My current favorite unloved models: the IS300 Sportcross and Jaguar X-type wagon (sorry RF!).
I really loved the Toyota Cressida too. Especially once it was completely overshadowed by the introduction of Lexus and then killed for the Avalon. And now it’s been dead so long that hardly any non-car people have even heard of the nameplate.
Now I realize the above two are automatic only, so I’m not sure what I’ll do when push comes to shove and I have to replace my 05 Mazda6 wagon (5MT of course).
I’n not very worried about parts availability in general b/c I’d never touch a Daewoo or other make that’s no longer sold in America.
Hey, I’d buy a Torrent in a minute. Twin to Chevy Equinox. No known problems. “Glorifies shitbox”? I don’t think so. Right now, Chrysler products are wholesaling at ridiculous levels. Market over reaction here. If you are confident in one of them, now might be as good a time as ever to pick one up. Back in the day (1980’s), I was buying Audi 5000’s for a song and retailing for big profits. Traders were happy to unload them while buyers couldn’t resist a “bargain”. Too bad they ended up being junk.
Had a friend looking at an XF and decided on a Lexus IS-F instead. Lexus has such great build quality and lower depreciation which sealed the deal. It must be hard to be a Jag sales person.
Love the XF but right now I think the deal is a low milage XJR. Going for around $10k. Not nearly as unreliable as their reputation and they are great cars.
I also figure I should be able to pick up an almost new Mitsubishi Raider (rebadged Dakota) for almost nothing by mid summer. All Mitsubishi’s depreciate like a rock so imagine what one made by an ex-auto company will be worth – they may have to pay you to take one away. While not a great truck, I expect to see these at prices below a beater Ranger.
I wanted an IS Sportcross, but there weren’t any within 200 miles of me when I was shopping. Kind of a shame, as it is such a cool car.
Yes I would.
In fact I did already. I own 2 Isuzu Impulses… one FWD and the other the Turbo AWD version.
And here, where they were NEVER officially imported.
There, it would be a piece of cake.
Rare cars?… ummm gimme a 3dr Saab 900 or 9-3 Viggen. One of the firsts developed on the GM platform.
Or a Volvo 850 T5R (not sure on the letters) wagon. Yellow please.
One of the new Impala SS, a similar Buick (I think it’s the LaCrosse) in any case with FE2-3 suspension. Pontiac G8 GXP
Second gen Taurus SHO, HHR SS, Cobalt SS (don’t know if these last 2 are rare) turbo version please.
I’m a fan of the unloved car as well.
It all started when my aunt and uncle came back from Europe with a Citroen DS and promptly gave it to my mother. Little did we know about hydropneumatic suspensions, semi-automatic, column shifted transmissions and, mushroom-shaped brake pedal buttons, etc.
Back on subject, Jags are unlike any other car, which is great but also a curse. They have an uphill battle to fight in their market segment. Too much baggage from the bad old days, I suppose.
Just driving one off the lot and into one’s driveway will probably have decreased the value of the car by a stunning amount – a shame.
Here’s to the Jag and other misunderstood cars. They deserve better.
I’m seriously considering a two year old 9-3 Convertible. Always wanted a convertible, and 9-3 is the only one I fit in. Certified used models with 20K miles are listed in the low 20s. I think the list on those was over 40K…..
The late 90’s and early 200’s Jags are so cheap now, its a crime.
FWIW, XF owners continue to report a high repair frequency in TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey. Lots of minor electrical. A few bought back.
Then again, my favorite unloved great car is the Mazda RX-8. Which people avoid because they fear the rotary will self-destruct. The best-handling car in the world with a usable rear seat, dedicated platform and powertrain, cheap.
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php
I can think of several “unloved” cars that are great. And cheap. But why would I tell you jokers?
Someday, I’m going to have to drive one of the new Jaguars.
Sammy B, gossard267: I feel your pain. Of course I’m not even sure why I like the damn sportcross… but I do. And they are impossible to find.
“FWIW, XF owners continue to report a high repair frequency in TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey. Lots of minor electrical. A few bought back.”
Audi owners might be familiar with the “minor electrical” issues. Ask my sister-in-law about her A4 dead – smack in the middle of the George Washington Bridge.
Plenty to like about the RX-8, but it also has the abysmal gas mileage thing to battle.
A used Jag, especially off warranty? Be serious. Talk about a suckers bet.
Sammy B: Don’t get rid of that Mazda 6 Wagon !! They’re not that common. And one of the most beautiful wagons ever. Looks better than the sedan version which is unusual for most brands.
10 years from now it will still look good. No offense to anyone but I like the looks of it better than the RX8
Mr Lang: what other than the Jaguar pictured would you choose ?
yea pretty sad how they depreciate. found this xf out here in so cal in marina del ray for 39995. 09 too. http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=260843085&dealer_id=6556661&car_year=2009&rdm=1241794575614&model=XF&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=used&distance=75&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=JAG&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceASC&seller_type=d&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceASC&address=91761&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=48&standard=false&rdpage=thumb
A used Jag has always been a great used car value IMO as long as you have some cash reserves for repairs. When I lived in Detroit one of our salesmen (tooling company) would buy one used XJ after another and drive them into the ground.
If the XF has a decent lease rate next year I would consider one.
I always wanted a SportCross too!
Stingray:
Word has it that the SS HHR and Cobalt models are kaput for the 2010 model year. So they may not be getting any less rare.
Captain Tungsten:
Lotta 9-3 ragtops I saw at the dealer yesterday. Even the new ones are $12k off, meaning that you can get one for about $30k. Even better deals for the late model CPOs.
I like the damn Sportcross enough to wish it had been offered, as the sedan was, with a stick. But, as already noted, it wasn’t.
I think the XF is very known and loved. People just think that all Jags are unreliable “crap”
The SX4 is hardly overlooked either, see a bunch on the roads here.
I own a car that is not just unloved, but HATED by critics, a Saturn ION, and I would easily buy a Jeep Compass. Plus I think the Sebring and Avenger are the best looking of the mid size class cars.
The killer with bargain Jags is the cost of keeping them going.
Despite being a current caretaker of a 1965 E-type Jaguar, I’m not really a “Jaguar Person” and have never even looked at their other models. I am a member of the Jaguar Clubs of North America, specifically so I can participate in competition driving events in my old Jag. Part of that membership includes a monthly magazine, and in a recent issue they talked about a slightly modified Jaguar XF which ran well over 220 MPH at Bonneville, making it the fastest (non-racing) Jaguar EVER. That caused me to take a second look at the car since that put the sedan in the same league (at least in terms of performance) with iconic XJ220.
I’ve only seen one XF in the flesh, and it was on a rainy I-5 in Skagit County, WA. Approaching it from behind it caught my eye from a fair distance. Very striking. I’m still ambivalent about the front-end styling, but at least I give them credit for breaking with traditions that have been holding them back for decades.
Jaguar was Sir William Lyon, and his semi-retirement and subsequent Leylandization/Fordification of Jaguar starting in 1968 slowly destroyed them. It is a true shame how a once proud and legendary marque has been sullied thusly. As such I don’t know how any model, even as apparently good as the XF, can bring them back from the dead. The market seems to have agreed with me on that.
–chuck
“Plus I think the Sebring and Avenger are the best looking of the mid size class cars.”
Goes to show ya – there’s a seat for every butt.
I suspect that my automotive tastes must be too mainstream; I find that cars that are cheap because of lack of demand are ones that I don’t want either. For quite a few years when I was younger I was in the habit of buying cars that were not old enough to be collectible, but old enough that parts were starting to be hard to get.
We drive a 2006 Ford Freestyle Limited. Never saw a Ford ad for it, never loved by the dealers, but has a cult following amongst owners. It is a great family car. And….I got it for a song.
davey49:
“…and I would easily buy a Jeep Compass. Plus I think the Sebring and Avenger are the best looking of the mid size class cars.”
If you are serious about a Compass get one of the more recent models. The interior is much improved. You will know right away if it is by looking inside. As for the “best looking of the mid-size class cars” uh, I don’t think so, but I will say the Avenger isn’t that bad looking (actually it’s definately better looking than a Camry). It just gets tossed in with the Sebring as far as looks are concerned.
Volvo C30 – Hatchback + Turbo + minimalist interior = win in my book. Too bad they are overpriced by about 10K. I think I’ve seen two on the road so far, the other two are at the local Volvo dealer collecting dust.
Honda S2000 – flies under the radar as well, sure it has its fan base, but outside of that I doubt many people even know Honda makes such a car.
Someone I work with has a Jag XF, so I see one sitting in the parking lot every day. Very sweet looking ride.
windswords- I’ve noticed the improved interior on the small Jeeps as well.
I’ve always liked the look of the Sebring, I think because it isn’t an egg shaped 90s-esque design. I like the hood strakes, makes it look more “American”
My least favorite mid size look is the Malibu and Camry.
It must be where I live (Vermont).
I’m in the market for a auto to replace my Pathfinder. Looking to try and keep it under $15k. I went to the local Ford dealer and tried to buy an 09 Fusion SE with a manual. They took list ($22k+), minus $3500 from Ford, took another $500 off and said theres your car, take it or leave it. I left it.
Tried going on-line, First of all, didjyall know that apparently many cars that you find on-line are no longer availble when you try to buy them?
And then I found a 2005 Pathfinder on line at a nearby Nissan dealer advertised at $15,888. Went there, tried to buy, got the whole dealership experience, tried to get me to go 6 years on the loan to get my payments where they needed to be. Found out he was trying to sell it to me for $17,900. Nice. Left it.
Help! It seems that every used car here is listed abouve NADA clean retail price. Where’s the deals?!?
I’m definitely in the market for a new (probably low mileage used) car, but the dealers around here want to treat me like a sucker the minute I walk in the door – whipping out the four squares and all that.
I keep hearing about deals, but I’m not seeing them, and I don’t think price guides like Edmunds are keeping up in real time with what the market is doing.
Is there anywhere that someone like me (who isn’t part of the business) can get a feel for what the real wholesale going prices on cars are?
I already have an overlooked truck, bought my Isuzu at 5yr50k for the same price as a 10yr100k+ Toyota. Repairs have been minimal and parts are easy to find.
Our Corolla wagon must die at some time point, due to the laws of physics if nothing. They claim there is no such a thing as a perpetual motion machine but that thing comes close.
When the time comes to replace it I will be keeping my eyes open for that cross dressing Corolla wagon, know as Pontiac Vibe.
Ralph SS
Have you tried Craig’s List? Many cars offered by individuals (not just dealers). You definitely need to do your homework, and vet not just the vehicle but also the owners, i.e. are these the kind of people who do all the maintenance?
Good Luck.
One of the best deals going these days is a 2005 Jaguar VDP. Nice clean low mileage cars for about $25,000 ($85,000+ new).
Twotone
This car over a Pontiac GT G8 GXP…. $55k vs. $35-40k…. not likely. The pontiac gxp even comes with a tremec 6 speed manual. Sure the Jag has swagger and a better interior, but not $25k better interior or swagger…
Considering the differences in acceleration and mileage a regular GT G8 at 26k after rebates is even a better deal. “Restructuring” (aka something resembling bankruptcy) aside the parts for this car are still going to around.
@davey49 we’re kindred spirits then: 05 ION 1 here and also think there’s nothing wrong with the looks of the Sebring. Or the Compass. I like the flash of the Sebring. And the Avenger is handsome.
I guess that makes two fans. Maybe there’s a “contrarian element” out there that doesn’t sign in to TTAC much. Or what used to be called the “lunatic finge”, perhaps … like Borgward and Studebaker owners….
Someone else made a comment about “strange cars” like the ION and people who love or find them appealing in another thread here on TTAC. What a perfect description
I have an 05 ION 1 as well. I’ll admit to liking the Cobalt a bit better but Cobalts in the config I wanted (cheap, manual trans) were impossible to find.
Throw in the Kia Spectra as an “unloved” car I like as well. It’s a bargain, sporty looking and drives well.
I also love the Honda Element and Scion xB so I’m definitely a “strange car” fan
Was behind a car on the autobahn the other day, was going so slow, I had to pass it in my Smart ForTwo (it’s a Brabus model, so don’t hack on me or it …) and I was wondering “What is that white car with the bashed-in trunk lid”… then I realized it was not bashed-in, but was designed that way, and then realized it was the Jag…
davey49: same. Couldn’t find a basic Cobalt when they came out. They were all overloaded and never very many in stock.Months into the 05 model year.
I liked the Suzuki Aerio too in both 4 and 5 doors.
If they imported the Hindustan Ambassador I’d probably jump on it.
Yes, certified “strange car” fan as well.
Well, after a lap around the course in an XKR and XFR, I can say that I am truly impressed with the performance of both 2010 models. To really appreciate their performance, Roberto Gurrerro took me for a lap after I drove and it was incredible. He knows how to drive and he knew the track. The Jaguar is every bit the drivers car with an interior to match. Some of the controls were not as intuitive as I would have liked but a few hours with the car would probably change that. A little stiffer for everyday driving than the MB but incredibly capable around the race track. Not often you get to drive around a race track in someone elses car and it was a blast. Only wish I could have spent more seat time getting familiar with the car.
Stingray,
I’m with you on the Saab thing. A nice Viggen is a lot of car for not a lot of dough, as is a 9-5 Aero. I bought my 9000 Aero (5spd) for $7K. Its sticker was something north of $40K. It had 44K miles on it. Now it’s at 106K and has been a great ride. Lovely car with some of the best seats I’ve ever sat in. Suzuki SX4s still cost more than I paid for mine over 5 years ago. I also regularly get 500 miles from my 17 gallon tank when on highway trips.
In other news, those e36 M3s are getting to be reasonably priced…
~P
I’m still holding out for a “too low to resist” price on Pontiac G8…new or slightly used.
The XF is EVERYWHERE here.
They’re beautiful, too. I want one.
The XF is a beauty, stands out from the herd of Bimmers and Mercs. If I had a use for a sedan I would have one. I’ve got an ’05 XK8 that has been trouble free and a pleasure to drive and own.
I can afford to buy them new, but never do, always buy a low mileage creampuff a year or two old. Let someone else take that big first and second year hit of depreciation.
IIRC in spite of being brand spanking new, the XF came 87th out of 100 in reliability reports in a recent Auto Express survey in the UK. They again invested a lot of effort into making it drive beautifully, which very clearly shows through. On the other hand the design is too Lexus GS – the concept was striking, the real thing simply has a startled look from the front and is not particularly memorable generally. The interior has improved on previous Jags, though – now even the seats look like they will not require a chiropractor as additional equipment ;)