George writes:
I own a 1999 Honda Accord EX V6 Coupe with 103k miles. Should I sell it now or keep it?
The Positives:
1) Purchased new with 9 miles on the odometer.
2) Used Mobil 1 synthetic oil changed at 5k intervals.
3) Stays in a garage at night.
4) Reliable with only Delphi alternator failure outside of warranty.
5) Still looks good.
The Negatives:
1) Design defects in automatic transmission.
2) Only drained and replaced transmission fluid at 90k miles per manual instructions. Should have replaced earlier.
3) Due for expensive timing belt replacement.
Normally a fairly well maintained used car is worth more to its original owner than to someone else, but the 1999 Accord has an unusual combination of a high resale value combined with significant transmission problems. Looks like a case where I should sell it now before I have to spend more money on the car. Any thoughts?
Sajeev answers:
I’m a big softie for that vintage Accord coupe, so let’s discuss your concerns and see if a little more digging makes it more personally desirable for you.
Concern #1: If you stay within the confines of OEM parts, you are screwed. Honda has a voluntary recall on 2000 and newer models, so you probably feel like a valued customer right about now! I can’t find the actual problem with this transaxle. From a Honda press release, the problem is “insufficient lubrication of the transmission’s secondary shaft second gear that can occur under certain driving conditions. Prolonged operation under these conditions can lead to heat build-up and under certain circumstances may eventually result in chipped or broken gear teeth or breakage of the gear.”
That (in the world of performance modifications) by itself is no deal breaker. First, install the biggest transmission cooler possible—it should be about $250 including labor. Run it in series with the stock cooler for double cooling: the stock one first, than the new one. That will reduce heat buildup and maintain the lubrication qualities of the fluid. Second, talk to rebuilders like Jasper or those catering to the Honda community to see what other internal improvements can remedy the problem. It might be nothing more than drilling a valve body to get more fluid into that secondary shaft. And that’s pretty easy for the right person.
Concern#2: Not the end of the world, but I’d flush the tranny every 50k miles from now on. Again, install a big-ass transmission cooler.
Concern #3: Timing belts are expensive, but they include preventative maintenance. Items like your serpentine belt, coolant, water pump and other accessories are examined/replaced at this time to avoid impending failure. If you have the belt service done at a reputable, non-franchise shop the bill won’t be very bad, even with the cramped engine bay of the V6 models.
Is this worth the effort? I think this vintage Accord coupe is absolutely beautiful to look at and drive, worth every penny. But it’s up to the B&B to set the record straight.
[send your technical queries to mehta@ttac.com]
There is a reason resale values are relatively good on your car … it has a long, long way to go still!
The absolute worst case would be that at some point you need a new transmission for a few thousand dollars. The difference between the cost of a new vehicle and that worst case repair would still be huge.
Definitely hang on to this car and do the suggested maintenance. Timing belt replacement should be in range of $400-$700 because it’s a long procedure. JMHO.
I had a 2000 2dr EX also never had a problem in 100,000 miles. That model was one of the best looking Hondas in my opinion. Change the timing belt and keep it.
It sounds like you really want to buy something new. If that’s the case, just say you want to buy something new. But I really don’t see a reason to get rid of the Accord. With the right maintenance, it should last nearly forever. The problematic transmissions affected the TL and CL much more than the Accord, which if I remember right got the new 5-speed a model year or two later than the Acuras.
I really do like the design that model of the Accord coupe with its NSX-derived taillights. The following model was a boring jellybean, though the current coupe is really quite nice too.
KEEP IT!!! Even if you have to put a few grand into it, what do you think another car with equal virtues would cost you? $6,000 or so? You’ll spend less on the car you have, and at 100,000 miles, it’s just getting started. My mother-in-law’s ’98 went nearly 150,000 before the tranny decided it was no longer happy in this world, and that was a car that NEVER got its proper maintenance. An Accord is a good thing, and having had yours since new makes it a great one to keep. Any car over 100k requires work, feel good in the fact that your Honda will require less work than most.
Keep it and fix it, until the hassle factor or actual cost equals a new car payment.
I doubt you’ll be putting $500+/month into it for the next 5 years. That’s why I actually got rid of a new car and bought an old one – I couldn’t stand the payments.
Then put a “Don’t laugh; it’s paid for” bumper sticker on it.
Do you need to be confident in this car to keep it?
I’d sell it now. It’s worth probably $4k-$5k to someone else as is, and hey you’ve gotten 10 years and 100,000 miles out of it. As you say, it probably needs $1k in maintenance soon, why not have someone else pay it?
Buy something else new, and drive it for your next 100,000 miles.
A new tranny and timing belt replacement is going to set you back a big chunk of change. Honda and Toyota automatic transmissions are expensive to buy new so a good used one may be the answer if you can find one and I know from experience that Honda automatic trannys of this time frame can fail unexpectedly. The next consideration is all of the other things that may go wrong. Electrical issues, window motors and regulators, radios, suspension components. All of these things will start to wear out and go bad when the mileage creeps upwards of 150K on these cars. Because it wears a big H on the front doesn’t make it exempt for normal high mileage wear items. I would treat this car like any other and forget who manufactured it. Price out a tranny and timing belt just to see. Get a KBB book value on your car. Take a look at a new or gently used one year old model of your choice and see how much a month you will be spending versus the repair tag on your car to get it back in reliable shape. If you can get the repairs done reasonably then you may want to keep your ride and just deal with the other smaller things along the way as they come. Or maybe your just sick of your current ride and want something more modern with more features and a nice new car warranty to boot.
“Electrical issues, window motors and regulators, radios, suspension components. All of these things will start to wear out and go bad when the mileage creeps upwards of 150K on these cars. Because it wears a big H on the front doesn’t make it exempt for normal high mileage wear items.”
My experience with GM cars at that mileage is that they start eating you alive with the kind of problems you talk about, but Hondas don’t hit nearly as high of a PITA accessory bits failure rate.
Is the picture a car of the owner in this article?
Go here…
http://www.car-part.com
Add maybe $500 to installation of a tranny when it comes time.
Then again, fluid is far cheaper than a tranny. I would just change the fluid once a year and consider synthetic if you do a lot of highway driving. Otherwise, you’re fine. Sajeev’s consideration of a tranny cooler is a good one.
FWIW thw 2nd gear lubrication issue applys to ’03 model Accords/Odys/Pilots with 5speed auto not the ’99.
’99 V6 cars have a 4 speed auto that suffers mostly from clutch pack wear and the resulting plugging of internal filter screens, which eventually causes the line pressure to drop.
Honda has been known to assist with A/T repairs even on fairly high mileage cars. Worth asking if/when the trans fails.
Engine mounts also fail commonly on these cars. They’re somewhat pricey, but easy/cheap labor to replace if the trans is already out.
…and the chances of finding a used trans that doesn’t have the same problem is slim/none IMHO.
What does a new Accord run? $25-30k or thereabouts. You can do a lot of service to your ’99 and still come out way ahead…even if you end up doing a tranny rebuild. But as has been noted your model doesn’t have the problem prone V6 tranny. Even if it did, Honda has fixed that problem. Timing belts, even new struts and coils are relatively cheap things compared to the cost of a new vehicle. I would guess less than $5k could keep this thing running another 100k miles. Money in the bank!
You say it still looks good; I presume the interior is also good. So, what you have is a very attractive car, probably with pretty good performance and decent highway fuel economy, that otherwise meets your needs.
If I were you, I’d keep it. I don’t see how you’d get a nicer car for the price of a timing belt and, worst case, a new transmission. The sales tax on a new car would easily equal the timing belt job in many states. The bump on your insurance would take another chunk of change.
Resolve to change your transmission fluid more often. If you don’t drive the car too hard, you may have no problem at all.
I have to wonder, too, is this the same transmission Honda used in the Odyssey? If so, the Odyssey weighs 35-40% more than your Accord. Your vehicle is putting far less stress on the transmission.
Good car. I say sell. Get something more tosable and involving. When I drove one, it did not feel all that involving. It was kinda light on its feet, but it wanted very little to be tossed around, imo. A Clk320, E39 BMW, or something like that, are probably not much more expensive. Although repairs are um…
Sell it. I had a Acura V6 with the same tranny issue, and it will fail and it will cost a bunch to replace it.. Take advantage of the depressed market now to pick up something at a good discount.
Thanks for all the feedback.
# Shogun :
May 19th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Is the picture a car of the owner in this article?
No. The car I own is a stock dark green EX V6 Coupe without the extra plastic hanging off the bottom. It has a few minor door dings and scratches, but the paint shines up when washed and waxed. Interior is in excellent shape.
I live in the suburbs of Dallas so this car has never experienced road salt. Sun oxidation of paint is what reduces a car to beater status around here and so far the paint looks nice. My commute to work is 7 miles of flat suburban streets so the transmission doesn’t work too hard. Transmission has a second delay shifting from reverse to drive.
Resolve to change your transmission fluid more often. If you don’t drive the car too hard, you may have no problem at all.
Amen! If I had known how easy it was to drain transmission fluid and replace, I would have done it every couple years. Can’t replace filters in a Honda automatic without disassembly, so fluid change is a reasonable DIY task. Has anyone used an external filter with a Honda automatic?
I had a 1999 Odyssey purchased new. More frequent tranny fluid changes than what the “severe” maintenance schedule calls for and careful driving did not keep the tranny from ultimately failing at 125,000 miles. Honda treated me very well, however, and gave me a new one for free (just paid the dealer labor). At this late date, it’s not likely you’ll be so lucky. Yes, the timing belt/water pump service service will run you $700-800 (but last you another 105,000 miles). If you like the car just be prepared to shell out about $4,000 for a new tranny installed by a competent shop along with several hundred dollars for the other typical Accord issues: CV joints, front axles, and A/C components (depending on the part of the country you live in).
Hey. How about trading it for another comparable example with a manual trannie? That is what I would have gotten in the first place. I mean, it’s a coupe, right? More driver than family oriented.
Keep it. The new ones are pigs, heavy and over-sized. I had a 2002 sedan (same platform as yours) and a 2003. I needed to sell one to buy my wife a new whip. I sold the 2003, and the 2009s are bigger, heavier, and more loaded with useless geegawas. I am very happy with the 2002 and planning to keep it.
If you think maintenance is a big thing check out depreciation, even on new Hondas. A car like yours is a thing of economic beauty. You will get another ten years out of this one, and when you are ready to buy a new car, you will find that the only things available are keijidosha. At that point you will sell the Accord to a rebuilder, who will rebuild it and sell it for $40,000.
As has been stated before, the obvious answer to your question is to keep it, therefore the fact that you’re asking at all means you want to get something new. So that’s what you should do. There’s nothing to be ashamed of in wanting to replace a 10 year old car even in this economy. 10 years is highly respectable. Provided you can afford it go buy something new that you like.
Keep it – but make a resolution to make a car payment to yourself. The first month, your car payment goes for the timing belt change. The second month on, the car payment goes to a separate account. This account is to cover maintenance on the car and a downpayment on the replacement. After you have accumulated 3-4k into the account, you can raid the account and use the money as a slush fund if you want to, but you’ll at least be aware that your increased lifestyle flexibility is being paid for by your willingness to drive an older, paid-up car. If you can’t regularly make the $500/month payments, you’ll know that whatever your replacement car will be, it better be inexpensive.
Hmm! I’m surprised nobody’s commenting on my idea for an external Transmission Cooler. That’s one of the easiest and most effective upgrades for any autobox.
How much will it cost you to trade-in, purchase, finance & insure a new similar car + new car depreciation as soon as it touches the dealership curb – how much it will cost you to perform the regular maintenance your car requires now = how much money you are going to say bye-bye to in order not to worry about some potential transmission problem. Or paint fade. I’ll risk to say the difference will be worth at least four to five Honda transmissions and 80 cases of Turtle Wax.
If you feel the urge to sell a car that has served you well for over a decade because it will, one day, perhaps, maybe, need to have some non-regular maintenance work performed according to the Internet Honda Transmission Replacement Schedule, you are better off selling it now and leasing a new model @ 48 month cycle.
Leasing will, at a cost, liberate you from your worries about long-term reliability and performance and the Great Internet Database of Car Worries will be just that, someone else’ problem.
That freedom from ownership worries theory applies to boats, planes and girlfriends …you know what they say about things that float fly and f#$%…
Crack Head… no, what do they say?
Anytime a car guy asks a bunch of other car guys if he should keep his old car, (1) he is invariably looking for an excuse to sell it, and (2) the other car guys will invariably tell him to keep it.
Here’s the way I look at it. If you want a new car, now is a great time to sell the Accord. It has given you ten good years, and somewhere out there is a dumb teenager who believes that all Hondas run forever and will therefore pay big money. Let him do it. It is a financial lesson that will benefit him for the rest of his life.
On the other hand, if you really don’t want a new car, keep the Honda because John Horner guarantees its repair costs will always be cheaper than the alternative :)
Get a Pontiac G8 if you’ve got the money.
Fix your Honda if you don’t
The infamous Honda automatic transmission problem also affected this generation. I had the exact same car, model year 2001. The transmission died at just under 150K miles. I am not sure that a cooler would have helped. The problem was, as stated, lack of lubrication, although I believe it was 3rd AND 4th gear. When it fails, you lose 4th, quickly followed by 3rd.
Ironically, the AT is the only major component in that car that was Made In Japan. All other major components were made in Ohio.
WildBill :
Crack Head… no, what do they say?
Well, I’D say the two happiest days you have with them are the first, and the last.
Hmm! I’m surprised nobody’s commenting on my idea for an external Transmission Cooler. That’s one of the easiest and most effective upgrades for any autobox.
That’s good advice Sajeev. But I think he needs a big blower coming out of the hood. Lots of STP decals and curb feelers all around, too. Just my opinion.
I’d install the aux tranny cooler and keep it. Start saving $250 per month for a future tranny rebuild and timing belt/water pump replacement (less than a new car payment). You may not need to rebuild the trans. If not, you can spring for Recaro seats, exotic rims and tires, a monstro exhaust tube, and a big wing. (sorry) Then you are good to go for another 150,000 miles or so, driving a car you love. If you sell it, you may not like your new car as much as this one.
This car is a keeper, considering condition, mileage and location. If the driving experience needs improvement, that is easily rectified. Just expect some repairs; not big deal. Especially if you are inclined to do some work yourself.
If you want a new car and can easily afford one by paying cash, now’s a good time to deal. However, the style of your coupe still looks current. Change the timing belt, shocks and brakes and keep it for another two years. Get it professionally polished and detailed for $500 and you’ll be amazed at how new it will look and will be a lot more excited about keeping it.
In the past couple of years I’ve put all new belts, new muffler, new rear shocks, new tires, and had the brakes done on my cherry 91 Accord EXR. They will pry it from my cold dead fingers.
…and the chances of finding a used trans that doesn’t have the same problem is slim/none IMHO.
Werd.
I’ve never driven a secondhand Accord of that generation with what I’d consider a heatlhy automatic… and nearly every one has required a transmission rebuild after spending a few years in city traffic.
That said: If you really, really, REALLY love that car, cough up the money for a new transmission or a rebuild, add Sajeev’s extra cooler, and drive it for another ten years.
Personally, I’d just trade it for a manual.
If I understand you, you have yet to experience any transmission issues, just a sense that it MIGHT fail because lots of others have. Yes, it might; Honda doesn’t make the best auto transmissions out there. I’ve never owned an automatic Honda–all mine have been manuals–but a number of family members and girlfriends have had them and I got to do the maintenance. No trans failures with some high-mile cars, including known trouble prone models (Legend and Odyssey). There are three keys to Honda auto trans longevity:
1) Even the severe service maintenance cycle is insufficient. Drain and fill every other oil change.
2) Use only ATF-Z1 Honda fluid. No equivalents.
3) Contrary to Sajeev’s advice, do NOT flush the transmission. Never do this on a Honda. Drain out what you can, fill with fresh. If you feel the need to make up for past neglect, do three drain/fills a week apart. You should use a little less than three quarts each cycle. It’s the equivalent of a complete flush.
6G Accords are great cars, and I think you’d be making a mistake to turn it loose with so much service life left in it. I think the 6Gs were the last ones that reflected Honda’s original vision and values. Subsequent Accords have chased the competition rather than set the benchmark. Now they’re heavy, overpowered and overly complex.
That generation of Accord coupes are definitely beautiful cars. The timing belt replacement is a preventative measure on pretty much every car out there so I say keep it while looking into Sajeev’s advice regarding the installation of that transmission cooler. Apart from that, there’s really nothing wrong with the car.
How about selling it private/trading it in and getting a 1 or 2 year old car? The new car will still feel “new” but the payments will be way lower. Let someone else take the depreciation hit.
rocketrodeo:
Your advice on Honda transmissions sounds exactly like what others have said about Chrysler transmissions, especially the part about using the recommended fluid.
I had the exact same car: ’99, emerald green, EX V6. My first and only car, bought it straight out of college brand new. Maintained it perfectly, but…
What a giant piece of crap. I sold it in ’05 for chump change.
The aforementioned trans problems really hit me, most likely because most of my miles were hard city driving. Honda was nice enough to replace it at 50k (shifting into second felt like getting rear-ended.) The problem started again at 90k.
Not only that, the car had a lot of minor electrical problems. I was stranded a few times due to dead alternators, headlights constantly burned out, radio died.
The leather was atrocious. Seams teared in the seats, and the leather on the wheel constantly came off on my hands. Oh, and a weld broke in my driver’s seat frame so I had a rocking chair for a while until I went to a junkyard and got a new seat. I’m not a big guy, either- 5’11, 180 or so.
The exhaust started rusting very early in the car’s life as well, but there’s a lot of salt on the roads around here so I don’t know if I can really blame Honda for that.
It’s a shame, because (in my opinion) that was the last good generation styling-wise. The next model after that looked bloated, and the new one is a weird mishmash of angles that doesn’t really work at all.