Theodore writes:
Here’s one for you: what’s the best way to secure a parked manual transmission car? I leave mine with the parking brake on and the shifter in first. My cousin puts the brake on and the shifter in reverse. My brother-in-law puts the brake on and the shifter in neutral. So putting the brake on appears to be universal, but where should the shifter be? Is there any extra wear and tear from leaving the car in gear?
Sajeev answers:
Definitely park the vehicle, apply the parking brake and leave in gear. Engaging the clutch ensures the car won’t roll in the time between disengaging the parking brake and putting your foot on the brake pedal. Kinda makes sense when you think about it, no?
Leaving the car in gear won’t increase wear on the engine or clutch, unless you like to crank ‘er up without depressing the clutch pedal. Which assumes you hacked the system to allow the starter to crank without the clutch switch activated. If you went to all that trouble, perhaps you should find another hobby.
As far as your chosen gear, that’s irrelevant: all you care about getting the clutch connected to the engine. Since you mentioned it, I like second gear: it’ll slide in with a mere slap of a wrist from my billet short-shifter.
[Send your technical queries to mehta@ttac.com]
Being fond of the older car, on steep inclines I also like to turn the wheels so that they’re pointed at the curb. Just in case.
Which assumes you hacked the system to allow the starter to crank without the clutch switch activated.
Wut? There are cars that don’t let you start with the car in gear? Wow, I AM behind the times.
“Engaging the clutch ensures the car won’t roll in the time between disengaging the parking brake and putting your foot on the brake pedal. Kinda makes sense when you think about it, no?”
It’s entirely possible I’m being ignorant of something obvious here, but the way I was taught to do hill starts in drivers ed, you don’t need to use the brake pedal at all, just get it to about 1500rpm (this was in a 1.0 Vauxhall Corsa), find the bite point of the clutch, release the parking brake and set off as normal.
@gromit:
I once had an 89 4Runner, that had a switch on the dash that allowed one to start the truck with the clutch pedal out. I never could think of an application that would warrant using it for anything other than being lazy, however.
Happily, I never did try starting it in gear, so I can’t comment further.
Honestly, it depends on where you park and the country of origin of the car (its brand).
In a level parking lot or a level parallel parking situation, I leave the car in neutral. Don’t really need “Mrs. Smith’s” bumping me to and fro while docking her land yacht to be transmitted through the gearbox.
On an incline, brake, gearbox and wheels curbed (curbing is the law in states like California). Inclined parallel parking…if I can curb my wheels and the parking is tight, the box is left in neutral.
However…should the car be of Italian or English manufacture it should be left in gear in all non-level scenarios. Years (and years) ago, I had a friend whose 2-day old Fiat X1/9 paid no heed to its applied parking brake and rolled into the reservoir in a local park. And I bet Mr. Goolsby never parks the E with just the handbrake applied.
Chuck?
paul_y: I heard of a similar system years ago (in a Jeep I think) and what they told me was that the idea was if you are off-roading, and get stuck/stalled in a steep incline, you can turn the starter with the engine in gear and the vehicle will actually pull it’s self forward on the starter.
I’m not an off-road guy, so I never validated their story, but it made some sense at the time.
As for how to park, I was always told, if facing uphill, (where it would roll backwards) put the wheels turned out, with the shifter in 1st.
If facing downhill (where it would roll forwards) you put the wheels in and the shifter in reverse.
I use first or reverse, whichever gear is appropriate to travel downhill. If the car is nose up on the incline, I use reverse; nose down is first. This is on the idea that I don’t want the engine encouraged to turn backwards.
I use first as I always figured the idea was to get maximum engine braking… If the car does roll, I want it to do so as slowly and reluctantly as possible.
Yes, I also turn the wheels to the curb.
About 6-7 years ago I awoke one morning to find my neighbor’s Saturn backed solidly against a sizable tree in my back yard. Seems he had left it in neutral when the parking brake failed and it rolled down his driveway, across the street, up the curb, curved around my next-door neighbor’s block tree planter and aimed straight down my backyard and hit a 2 foot diameter tree dead center with the back bumper. Totalled the car. The stereo was on the rear seat.
My parking sequence is neutral, engine off, parking brake on, engage gear(1st on level or downhill, reverse on uphills).
Leave the vehicle in gear, no parking brake unless on an incline.
The habit of not using a parking brake stems from driving trucks, where the parking brake release is inconveniently located under the dash. Parking brakes also have a tendency to freeze in position during the winter months.
As far as your chosen gear, that’s irrelevant
Actually, that’s incorrect when parked on a hill (on a flat piece of land you can park it on a chew gum and it’s good enough). The reverse gear is the “strongest” gear, so it has the most power to hold your vehicle in place; then it’s the 1st gear. Say, if the parking brake fails, the reverse gear is the most likely to keep your car from rolling away.
Second here also. I think I read it in a manual for something I owned once, and that stuck.
Hold it guys. There is no universal rule for this.
Parking in Paris or in Rome, where they bump themselves into tight parking slots: out of courtesy, you park without a brake and you leave it in neutral. If the ground is not level, you just use the brake. Never put it in gear — other people’s rough parking habits are bad to your transmission.
Parking on a really steep hill, like in SF: turn your wheels against the curb, and use both brake and gear. If you want to be extra safe, then put the car in first if you’ve parked uphill and reverse if you’re pointing downhill.
Second is fine in most cases but not good enough for really steep locations.
In most places it’s good enough to use first and no brake, or brake and neutral.
Anyway, that’s how its taught in Europe, where everybody is accustomed to sticks.
Mine is first gear or reverse, depending on which way the car is facing, with the front tires pointed towards the curb, in the unlikely event that everything else fails.
Of course, on level ground, I usually just leave it in neutral. But the hire driver for our truck always puts it in gear… which often leads to spilled coffee first thing in the morning when I have to take the company service out…
All my cars are stick. I never put them in gear when parked unless there is a significant incline (in which case it would be irresponsible not to).
Even when leaving it in gear I put the parking brake on first, and then, after the car has loaded its suspension with the parking brake on, I put it into gear as a backup against the parking brake failing or slipping.
I’m in first on a nose facing incline and reverse on a decline – per no_slushbox, I also like to try to load as much weight onto the parking break before releasing the clutch as well, though in the Canadian winter, I don’t always use the parking brake, depending on conditions.
grommit/paul_y/Redshift – I believe it’s called a clutch interlock defeat (or some variation thereof, depending on the manufacturer). New Jeep Liberties that come in 6MT still have this feature, and it is designed for starting on off-road trails. The suggested usage is actually on a bouldering incline when you don’t want to move from brake to gas (ie, rolling backwards at all could cause damage to the vehicle) and presumably can’t use the hand brake due to traction issues.
For weird braking (at least for me), we recently acquired an LR3, which is automatic only in NA (our other cars are all stick), and it has an EPB – Electronic Parking Brake; that is a very strange sensation hearing/feeling it tighten the drum – however, it does a great job (unfortunately, I’ve heard that they sometimes break down and can be a pain to fix).
I’ve always wondered if parking in a certain gear everytime would cause damage. My gf has a 9-5, and her family has 2 more, all of which need to be in reverse for the key to come out of the ignition. These cars all have extremely balky shifts into reverse by now (the oldest is almost at 200k) and everyone swears they weren’t always that way. It’s bad enough that traffic has had to wait for me to be able to parallel park, and I hate that.
If it does cause damage I’d use 2nd or 1st only from now on (I use 1st now out of habit in my VW), as I could always get somewhere in an emergency without one or the other, that’s not necessarily true with reverse. I’d love to get an answer on this if there are any transmission gurus out there.
KixStart :
May 26th, 2009 at 7:03 am
“I use first as I always figured the idea was to get maximum engine braking… If the car does roll, I want it to do so as slowly and reluctantly as possible.”
I think you are confusing the engine braking that occurs while the engine is running and you are using the engine/transmission to slow down.
The maximum braking effect in a parked vehicle will occur when you use the highest gear ratio (largest drive gear mated to the smallest driven gear)
For proof of this have a couple of friends push your vehicle while you have the clutch engaged and the transmission in first gear…..now try it in the highest gear.
It has nothing to do with the direction you are facing. There is nothing that stops the engine from rotating backwards just as easily as it rotates forwards.
I live on a steep hill, and when I park my Ranger on my driveway, I use reverse. Last year it had low compression because of some incompetent engine work done by the previous owner. The only gear that would keep the car parked by itself was reverse, because of the way it multiplies torque, it also multiplies the engines ability to serve as a brake. Obviously I also use the parking brake. If you want to make sure the car won’t move if the parking brake fails only use 1st or Reverse.
When either my Ranger or Subaru are parked level, I usually only use the brake.
I’m in first on a nose facing incline and reverse on a decline – per no_slushbox, I also like to try to load as much weight onto the parking break before releasing the clutch as well
Ditto here. First gear offers more rolling resistance than second or third, as anyone who has ever flattened their nose trying to push-start a car will tell you.
Loading the parking brake before the tranny is another good idea IMO. It makes shifting out smoother and must be easier on the gears. Unfortunately for me marriage is spelled “PRNDL”, but I still follow this practice even with the slushbox.
@rtx
I’m not quite sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.
1st & reverse provide the greatest resistance to rolling. The rolling car has to turn the engine faster for a given speed of roll.
Me, I leave it in 1st, though typically reverse has a slightly higher gear ratio.
On hills i always use handbrake+gear. On level surfaces only in gear, usually reverse one for less possibility for handbrake to freeze in winters, and because i thought that reverse has larger ratio then 1st (requiring more engine rpms per wheel turn, seemingly being more resistant for rolling on steep hills), but recently i’ve heard, that it’s not always true, and for most cars 1st gear might be of bigger ratio.
From what i’ve heard – leaving in gear shouldn’t be done for diesel powered cars, as they are prone for engine selfstart from rolling without electrical ignition aplied.
Also i’ve heard that for automatics (never had one) no matter possible freezing of handbrake one should be used nevertheless because of car slow rolling on hills possible in ‘parking’ gear.
imho gear addition to handbrake is more essential for old cars (eg. remember TopGear episode with handbrake test result on hill for old .uk beater cars? :) ), even though working handbrake is required for car to pass yearly technical inspection, my guess is that old cars might have it “less braking” / more often failing.
As extra i’ve been taught in drivers ed. – on hills one should leave front wheels turned, and with direction depending on two factors – parking done on downhill or uphill, and for parking done near roadside/sidewalk having or not curbstone. With logic being – to prevent car going/turning into main road if selfrolling if there is no curbstone, but oposite direction, for front wheels to stop at curbstone if there is one.
Of course, i leave wheels straightened out when parked on level roads (during same driver ed. had been taught that turned wheel unneccessary widens space used for car parked by sticking out even more from car base width then eg. rear look sidemirror) – unpolite thing to do, especially parking on narrow roads.
And I bet Mr. Goolsby never parks the E with just the handbrake applied. Chuck?
Somebody call my name? (Two EE’s by the way, no Y)
Yes, I always leave the Jag in gear. What gear depends upon the angle of the incline. If the nose is downhill, leave it in reverse. If the nose is uphill, I leave it in second. Hand brake is always engaged when parked. It is not very strong however, as it is an odd cable & lever thing on the rear (inboard) discs. Hence the engine being used to hold the car with an opposite-to-gravity gear choice.
As for the “depress the clutch when starting” the Jag is just the opposite. The starting procedure for the old E-type is a tad complex (which is also a handy theft deterrent!):
1. Insert key in the dashboard, turn it to “on” which starts fuel pump.
2. Pull choke lever (to where depends on temperature.)
3. Put car in neutral.
4. DO NOT STEP ON THE CLUTCH
5. Wait for fuel pump noise to change pitch, indicating full pressure (usually a 4-8 second pause.)
6. Hit the starter button, and if cold… grumble a bit, try again.
7. Smile as the XK barks to life.
The old Jaguar clutch has a graphite throw-out bearing, which is best preserved by starting in neutral, no clutch pedal. My daily driver TDI Jetta of course will not start without the clutch fully depressed. So all sorts of mental recalibration required when changing mounts.
I gave my 15 year old son his first stick-shift driving lesson over the weekend. Having a Diesel car is a blessing in this scenario, let me tell you.
–chuck
never realized this is a matter of debate. if the idea is to keep the car from moving, you want the lowest gear; usually reverse is lower than first. forward or backwards doesn’t come into it.
if the idea is to keep other people’s bumping from damaging the car, then you don’t want to immobilize it at all, so it will roll.
damage to the clutch or transmission isn’t going to happen. if somebody bunts it hard enough to move it with the gear engaged, it’s the tires that will skid. even more so if the parking brake is on also.
parking brakes do freeze up in the winter; one way around this is not to apply it fully. usually you can break the ice by applying it further, then you can let it off.
tedward:
Have you and gf tried some other things before doing the actual shifting into R? Often putting the lever into a forward gear (3rd works well) then slipping out into the neutral gate before engaging the Reverse lockout collar will help.
I’ve gotten into the habit of just shutting the engine off and then shifting it into R. No grinding guaranteed [I engage the PB first, especially if on an incline].
If they haven’t done so, changing the gearbox lube doesn’t hurt. Our current 9-3 (currently 155k miles) and a 900 before that (240k miles) sometimes also got balky, but periodic fluid changes and doing some of the above kept the trannies going without ever opening them up (so far).
[BTW, that includes brake fluid changing on a regular basis, since the clutches are hydraulic.]
bill h
hmmm…I’m in the habit of 1st, 2nd then reverse with my car, but I haven’t tried 3rd or turning the car entirely off in the Saab to get reverse (the pb dosen’t work, I didn’t want to start fixing these things and get involved in another brand…sigh). Sounds like its worth a shot. Thanks for the advice.
On the maintenance end I really haven’t had much to do with the cars, except I know that they’ve been cared for “by the book”. I’m not entirely sure what that entails for fluid changes not being a Saab owner myself, but I’m sure I’ll find out once I finish moving in with her. It’s going to really suck keeping a 9-5 and a late 90’s VW on the road at all times…in Queens.
When I could afford to drive fun cars I would apply the P-brake and leave the G-box in Neutral. The reason being if the parked vehicle was punted (a not uncommon event in Dee-troit) that shock would not be transmitted through a locked-up drivetrain.
As far a steering wheel I leave it straight ahead. Again, if the car gets buggered it’ll will likely go straight ahead– not over the curb, mom and her stroller full tax deduction; and not into traffic taking out someone’s M3.
tedward:
Message received….as far as “by the book” maintenance, I have felt that sometimes means too little by half, especially if the car had “free maintenance” provided by the dealer during its early life…being a cost center (especially to GM’s beancounter mentality in the case of Saab), they would likely short some of the procedures that would really help longevity. The
So if they haven’t done any tranny fluid changes, that would be on my recommended list.
And as someone who isn’t far from the VW community either, I’m sure you can take advantage of the online resources for both VW and Saab to help you through your service needs for both cars. Good luck.
bill h
thanks, I’ll need it I think.
I’m actually going to go visit her family this week, I’ll ask to see the maintenance logs for all of them. This is going to be fun if they haven’t done the recomended fluids, the matriarch in that particular clan is a take no shit lawyer.
Tedward:
Chances are it is a matter of the shifter bushings being worn at this point (200K miles). No idea how hard to replace on a 9-5, but I had to do this on my NG900. Makes all the difference. 9-5s are pretty reliable cars really. Saab has certainly had enought time to get the kinks worked out!
I always use reverse and the handbrake.
-Kevin
’08 Saab 9-3SC
’92 Saab 900CVT
’69 SAAB Sonett V4
’74 Triumph Spitfire
ex ’95 NG900, ’00 9-5SE Wagon, ’85 900T
krhodes1
“Chances are it is a matter of the shifter bushings being worn at this point”
I hadn’t really thought of that (although of course now it seems like an obvious possibility). Thanks. I’ve only seen that job done once before, so I’ll probably be paying for it if that’s the case.
Did I say “I”? I meant “she”.
Like beeb said.
I didn’t think this was such a hard question. Handbrake on, always, and in the lowest gear the car has. Usually, that’s reverse, but some cars (like my Protege) have 1st gear lower than reverse.
The idea is to hold the car in position, either on a hill or if someone bumps it. I was surprised to observe recently that being in gear held a car without the handbrake even in a steep (about 30 degrees) driveway.
I always park with the transmission in neutral and the spring brakes on. Of course, I drive a Freightliner tractor, so it’s quite a bit different from a car. And also, I never park with my wheels turned, anywhere (either at work or in my personal car.) It wears out front suspension parts much too quickly, and in any case, I know my spring/emergency brakes work fine, because I test them every day.
By the way, the tractor I drive does not have a neutral safety switch (that is, you can start it with the clutch engaged), nor does any other heavy truck, as far as I know.
First gear (or whatever is the shortest gear), parking break on.
If it’s on a positive incline, I roll back while banking my wheels towards the street so the wheel rests on the curb. If the incline is negative, I bank the wheels towards the curb and let it roll until it rests on it.
If it’s going to go from above to below freezing and on flat ground, I’ll just leave it in gear. I learned this the hard way when I had to take my girlfriend to work and my parking break was literally frozen in place. I had to pump the lever up and down to break the ice.