Chris writes:
Hi, Sajeev. I’ve got a Piston Slap question for you. I have a 2003 Jetta with a 1.8 L turbo engine. Recently, the water pump failed (at about 68k miles). My imminently competent and trustworthy local independent garage replaced the water pump and told me that they heard a tapping sound coming from the engine. They changed the oil and the sound seems to have gone away, but I was advised by them to trade the car in right away if the sound comes back. Do you have any intelligence on 1.8T VW’s and what their longevity is after overheating?
Sajeev answers:
Thanks to the Internet we all know about the 1.8T’s mad sludging skills. And what you said about your Jetta isn’t exactly confidence inspiring.
Regarding longevity: there are too many variables to say for sure. For example, how long the motor overheated, did coolant leak into the oiling system, the quality and frequency of oil changes, condition of the PCV system and your driving style all play an important role.
And if you’ve (no offense) been bad about oil changes, you’re asking for a sludge problem. After all, this is a small displacement, turbocharged engine with a marginal oiling system that’s pulling a 3300lb Jetta. Luckily, your car is eligible for VW’s engine sludge recall, so talk to your mechanic to see if the work needed (or will need) falls under the warranty:
“After listening to you, our valued customers, Volkswagen is implementing an extended warranty for oil sludge related repairs for 1998–2004 model year Volkswagen Passat equipped with the 1.8L Turbo engines to 8 years from the vehicle’s original in-service date without a mileage limitation. This extended warranty is fully transferable to any subsequent owner. This extended warranty does not affect—and is in addition to—any other applicable warranty covering your vehicle.”
Valued customers, indeed. So good luck with your quandary.
[email your technical queries to mehta@ttac.com]
Use synthetic oil and change it every 5,000 miles.
Leave it somewhere with the keys in it.
The sludge problem was only with the Passat 1.8 turbos (and maybe A4’s), not Jettas/Golfs/New Beetles/TT’s.
The Passat implementation of the 1.8T has a crankcase that stores 1 quart of oil less than the above mentioned models and it has a decidedly higher failure rate due to this design defect.
This Jetta is not eligible for the recall.
I’ve used synthetic since the first oil change and have had it done between 3000 and 5000 miles without fail.
The car is driven pretty moderately, with occasional blasts down a back road or an interstate.
I limped the car about 7 miles from where it broke down to the garage – stopping frequently to let it cool.
That warranty extension for sludge might be a Passat only thing. My recollection is that the Passat used an extra small oil pan due to clearance problems. An already sludge prone engine with a diminished oil capacity is a bad thing.
Also, VW publishes a very short list of approved synthetic oils, again to help deal with a sludge prone engine design.
Yup, that’s my bad…it’s a Passat recall only.
Even more reason to sell, unless you really love the car. I love that body style, but the long term parts/repair costs (I’ve seen two Jettas need multiple MAFs and window regulators, and it wasn’t cheap) and their market value make it a tough sell for me. Wait, I mean easy sell.
Things would be different if it was a dirt cheap Toyota, Nissan, GM, Ford, etc…and there’s another Piston Slap this week that’ll prove the point.
If you have a turbo, it is hot. HOT… hot and bothered. Pressure, strain, heat. That means oil changes all the freaking time. However, if you change the oil all the freaking time, a (especially direct injection) turbo system can be smooth and beautiful.
I’m starting to really like my naturally aspirated Rabbit. ;)
A general note on the 1.8T.
Despite the manual saying it is OK to allow the timing belt to go to 105K on ’03 1.8Ts, the general wisdom is to replace it before 60K to avoid problems like this. Belts have been known to break in the low 60K’s, and a lost belt on this engine can destroy the entire engine. (Enough interference for an GM press release.)
Along with the timing belt the belt tensioner, pulley, waterpump, thermostat and a few stretch bolts are all typically replaced at the same times since they are all in the same locale as the timing belt.
Another note on the water pump.
VW cheaped out on the OEM water pump and outfitted it with a plastic impeller to save a few cents. Better aftermarket water pumps for the VW 1.8T are available with metal impellers for just a few dollars more at retail pricing. (This isn’t just a VW problem, BMW also has used some plastic impeller water pumps with less than optimal lifetimes.)
Things like these are why I tell every non-enthusiast I know to not buy a VW.
As above:
1) frequent oil changes with synthetic
2) start the car first and then futz around with the seatbelt, coffee, music – at the other end futz around first and then stop the engine last – gives the turbo bearings time to get oiled while not under load
3) religiously change the timing belt at 70K miles – do the water pump and tensioners, etc at the same time
at least this is working for two 1.8T A4s with a combined 220+ Kmiles
but they also don’t do stop and go and they aren’t exposed to extremely hot ambient conditions save for a few weeks each summer
ps – 1&2 didn’t work so well for my A6 2.7T biturbo, but I’m an optimist…..
@ The Comedian
We did the timing belt while we were in there.
@ Sajeev Mehta
Even more reason to sell, unless you really love the car. I love that body style, but the long term parts/repair costs (I’ve seen two Jettas need multiple MAFs and window regulators, and it wasn’t cheap) and their market value make it a tough sell for me. Wait, I mean easy sell.
I do still like the car. The market value for six year old VW’s is leading me towards keeping it “until the wheels fall off.” I’ve got an extended warranty that picked up the cost of the repair. The warranty is good for a few more years – maybe keep it until the warranty expires?
chris: I’d look at the price of the Jetta after the warranty runs out, just look at the asking prices of an older model to guess what yours will be worth when the warranty expires. Then look at the market price now, and see how much money you’ll get back if you pro-rate the warranty.
Either way, you can’t lose. Just look at the full picture before you decide.
Chris:
Better yet, do what I did with my 1999.5 New Jetta TDI and retail it yourself with 6 months left on the extended warranty. Nothing makes a buyer open their wallet more than the assurance that:
1) They will be covered if any repairs are needed.
and
2) You haven’t had any needed repairs not done because you couldn’t afford to take care of the car.
The details/gossip ratio really makes/breaks an automotive maintenance and repair blog.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=27
Get the simpler belt tensioner as it fails less. Multivalve interference vws are famous for snapping belts after 50k.
Don’t know if it’s in your budget, but a ~10 row Setrab engine oil cooler helps. http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_oilcooling.htm
Sajeev: “I’ve seen two Jettas need multiple MAFs and window regulators, and it wasn’t cheap”
I don’t know if that’s true with the gassers, but I just swapped the MAF on my TDI and it was a 3-minute 2-tool job, done in my driveway. The part was $128 at my local VW breaker-yard. Not dirt cheap, but certainly not expensive.
–chuck
I saw just recently that even the current 2.0 turbo in all sorts of VWs and Audis has ridiculous oil requirements.
Even the mainstream “hydrocracked” synthetic oils, like the current edition of Mobil 1, won’t do. VW won’t honor the warranty unless you change often with their own oil, or a hard-to-get true synthetic like Amsoil. I think there’s one specific oil in a name brand that also qualifies, sold in one discount chain, but I can’t remember what it is. It has “European car blend” or something in the name, I half-recall.
If you’ve ever owned a VW (I claim victim status), you know the dealer service department is even more prompt and trustworthy than most. And if you don’t do all this, apparently the oil eventually bakes itself into carbon breakfast flakes that clog the oil journals and make the engine perform like an older VW.
OK, one I think I can help with!
I had a 2000 Golf 1.8T with the AWD engine code motor.
I went 130,000 miles without any sludging problems – I used Mobil 1 exclusively in that car.
The MK4 cars had a litany of problems – one if which was an aluminum oil pan that frequently cracked due to road debris strikes, or had its oil plug stripped out due to overaggressive tightening.
If your aluminum pan was replaced, it may have been replaced with a “hybrid” pan – top half where it meets the engine block is aluminum, and the bottom half (that is exposed and contains the oil plug) is steel. If the pan was replaced, the oil pickup tube should have also been replaced. If not, the engine will be starved for oil due to the different shape of the new hybrid oil pan.
I’ve seen some techs replace the oil pan and the turbo oil return line, but NOT replace the oil pickup tube – they just bend the old one out of the way of the new pan.
THIS IS BAD. If you have a hybrid oil pan, take the bottom of the pan off, and look at the oil pickup tube. You may want to verify with your VW parts counter that you have the correct pickup tube.
Good luck.
-ted
Mechanical reliability shall have no bearing on your level of happiness, unless your life depends on it: If this was 1944 and you were a FW 109 pilot flying low above Soviet lines with a couple of P-51’s on your tail and had been told earlier by your mechanic that he had “heard a knocking sound” on your Daimler-Benz DB-605, you would have reasons to be worried about hitting that water-methanol injection for the 20th time this week.
BUT, this being a car on the ground, you living a few keystrokes away from capable mechanics with plenty of spare parts around, I find it difficult to hit the Dringlichkeit button to detonate a perfectly nice little car in a pool of devaluation, then turn around and burn several thousand dollars more just to jump into a another “reliable” car that will – sooner or later – also require maintenance.
Water pumps, belts, turbos, head gaskets, valve guides and seats etc have been around for at least a hundred years. This stuff isn’t really cutting-edge anymore and when needing attention are no reason to sell a car that is structurally sound.
I saw just recently that even the current 2.0 turbo in all sorts of VWs and Audis has ridiculous oil requirements.
Easy lubrication requirements were one thing I loved about the Garrett 14B turbocharger in the ’90-’94 Talon/Eclipse/Laser triplet.
You could get a case of basic Quaker State or Valvoline and hammer the 14B on an oil change cycle that sometimes stretched to 5 or 6,000 miles.
On that suboptimal maintenance schedule I managed to get 141,000 miles out of the stock turbo until the bearing seized…paid $50 for a stock replacement…bolted it on…away I went…awesome
Any ideas on the old trick of changing oil substituting 1 qt of trans fluid, run (idle) for 15 minutes, drain, refill with 100% oil? A mechanic that I trust (known a long time and races SCCA) told me this would remove sludge in an older engine without damage. The trans fluid has cleaning agents that break down the sludge. I know people here will probably howl about this but it seemed to work for me on a 120K mile car, the drained mix was very dirty and subsequent oil changes seemed cleaner after that. I drove it another 25K miles before selling it for other reasons, seemed to have not been harmed.
Chris,
Is your extended warranty from VW or a third party? I am in the market for a Boxster, but I am afraid of the RMS/IMS problems so I am trying to find a reputable 3rd party warranty company but as far as I can tell they don’t exist.
Thanks.
@rodster205: I have done the same in a NA engine. Don’t know if I’d try it in a turbo motor.
I think the ATF just has Massive amounts of detergents in it compared to those in standard oil.
I’ve also run 25%, 50% and 100% Kerosene through my engine for a very short while; obviously, you’d want to be insanely careful about that, though.
I may have also subbed Diesel for the K1 at one time.
@chuckR
I’ve made a practice of letting it warm up and cool down – do you recall Ford’s 4 cyl turbos from the 80’s and what happened to them? I do.
It sounds like your 1.8’s are doing fine. Good luck.
@ Sajeev and @ The Comedian
Keeping the car until the warranty runs out or selling it privately with the warranty are both good ideas to explore, but cRacK hEaD aLLeY has a good point:
BUT, this being a car on the ground, you living a few keystrokes away from capable mechanics with plenty of spare parts around, I find it difficult to hit the Dringlichkeit button to detonate a perfectly nice little car in a pool of devaluation, then turn around and burn several thousand dollars more just to jump into a another “reliable” car that will – sooner or later – also require maintenance.
We’re getting into one in the hand, two in the bush territory here. It is a nice little car – I just hope it does not go out a ball of burned out turbo and oil starved engines.
@ tonycd
I’ve seen murmurs about the new 2.0’s on the VW Vortex – it seems like these engines are worse than the 2.0’s. I agree with you about the dealers, which is why I don’t go to one anymore.
@ zerofoo
I have not had the oil pan changed (but I know other VW owner’s who have bashed their way through multiples of them).
@ Detroit-Iron
It is a 3rd party company with VW credit set me up with – Century Warranty Services. They were very good about this claim.
@ tonycd
I’ve seen murmurs about the new 2.0’s on the VW Vortex – it seems like these engines are worse than the 2.0’s. I agree with you about the dealers, which is why I don’t go to one anymore.
Edit: new 2.0’s more troublesome than the old 1.8’s?
So much problems didn’t happen to Chrysler 2.4 Turbo engines, they just run beautifully :P
I’ll put it to you this way. The number of VW’s that are traded into Carmax with fewer than 100k outweigh those traded in with over 150k by a 15:1 ratio.
Only Kia, Suzuki, and Saab have worse records.
The 1.8L is a money pit that requires far more money to maintain than virtually any other engine from that era. Parts are extremely expensive and other than the Chrysler 2.7L, I can’t think of a worse engine from that time period.
You should sell it. Your overheating is not what caused the oil sludge, but the two combined usually yield some nasty results. I’ve seen blown head gaskets, blown turbos, and completely trashed cats come from the point where VW’s accumulate engine sludge.
rodster 205, Modern oil has more detergents in than ATF. Mebbe it was true 40 rs ago with SA grade oils, but no longer. If you want a gentle engine cleaner, try Auto RX. The guys over on BITOG rave about its cleaning abilities.
tonycd:
“Even the mainstream “hydrocracked” synthetic oils, like the current edition of Mobil 1, won’t do. VW won’t honor the warranty unless you change often with their own oil, or a hard-to-get true synthetic like Amsoil. I think there’s one specific oil in a name brand that also qualifies, sold in one discount chain, but I can’t remember what it is. It has “European car blend” or something in the name, I half-recall.”
If this is true, VW is in blatant violation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. If VW REQUIRES you to use a certain brand of oil, or anything else, so as not to void the warranty, they must give you those items for FREE.
1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))
This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker’s brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law’s protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part:
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name… (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)).
As for sludge, there’s not much you can do once the engine is sludged up. Mechanics in a bottle will not work, or make the damage even worse. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. All my driving life, my cars have gotten the same treatment: Oil changes every 3,000 miles using dinosaur oil and a pint of this stuff, http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php/site/mmo/ I’ve never had a car with an engine sludge problem, nor have I ever had a car with an internal engine failure that was oil related — blown head gaskets are the worst I’ve experienced.
Oil requirements aren’t as severe as tonycd is making it out to be (IMO). Plenty of readily available synthetic (yes even group 3) oils out there fit the VW specs, like Castrol Syntec 5w40. Dealerships should be able to give you a list of the approved oils. I believe your generation of 1.8T takes the 502.00 spec.
If you’re looking at trying some “special sauce”, skip the auto tranny fluid trick (or the diesel fuel in the crankcase trick for that matter). Instead may I suggest Auto-RX, which is not as harsh and just works with your usual oil changes.
Properly maintained the 1.8T can go forever, and I’ve found them to be well worth the hassle. The pitfalls are sludging (non-issue with proper maintenace) and coilpacks (cheap, easy fix). VW’s real problem is tiptronic trannies, and I predict that will be the reason why I eventually sell my A4.
So you buy a diesel car to save on gas (and perhaps save Mother Earth) and end up having to change the oil every 3000 miles with high dollar synthetic?
Seems like no one thought through the total cost of ownership on this one.
The 1.8T is a gas engine. The TDI engines are a completely different animal.
Sorry, my mistake!
@ Steven Lang
I’ll put it to you this way. The number of VW’s that are traded into Carmax with fewer than 100k outweigh those traded in with over 150k by a 15:1 ratio.
That is pretty compelling information. I do have a question for you about how the auction market works. Is it truly representational of the cars available in the used market? Meaning: are significant numbers of “better” cars kept and re-sold by dealers and the rest sent to auction or are most cars sent to an auction once traded?
@ marcj
I’ve got a Tiptronic as well – so far so good.
Thanks to everyone who has commented on my question. I’m appreciative of your opinions and glad we have a forum like this to engender such a conversation. You’ve all given me much to think about.
VWs are still garbage.
‘Still garbage, after all…these years.’