Toyota’s third-generation Prius hybrid launches in Japan on Monday, with a European rollout scheduled for July, and already they firm has amassed 75k pre-orders worldwide. Of course, Toyota won’t confirm the number, which originated in a Nikkei report printed in Automotive News [sub]. Honda’s Insight has already become Japan’s top-selling car, the first hybrid to hold such a title. And all this despite oil and gas prices that are significantly weaker than a year ago. But, as GM is currently proving, pre-orders can sometimes be more trouble than they’re worth.
GM had about 15,000 pre-orders for its new Camaro, which was not a huge surprise considering the rabid fanbase, long absence of a comparable model, and two years of relentless GM hype. The only problem is that pre-ordering turned out to be little more than a GM exploitation of the fanboys for a little free marketing (and cashflow). Angry pre-order customers have flooded the “Tour Of The New Camaro” thread at GM Fastlane, complaining that despite having made hefty deposits, their pony cars have yet to arrive.
Faced with a comment-thread revolt, Camaro Marketing Manager John Fitzpatrick tried to respond. “As much as we would like to accomplish the challenges provided in these posts, we must honor the dealer agreements and state laws that are in place that govern allocating products to dealers,” he wrote. “To build just orders with ‘R6P’ [pre-order] for the next two months (or for however long it would take) would put us in violation of these agreements and laws. Please be assured that does not mean we are ignoring these orders or not trying to build as many as we can.”
But hell hath no fury like a Camaro fan scorned, and several questioned what the point of a pre-order program was, if not to deliver the first cars to enthusiasts who put down over $1K for a car based on a prototype or magazine picture. “We wanted to determine demand,” admits Fitzpatrick. “We wanted to provide a realistic expectation of when vehicles would be produced.” But the Camaro kids weren’t mollified. “Look at these comments and think about what you have done to your most ‘Die Hard Camaro Fans’…. You treated us like lab rats. We as die hard fans lined up to support GM and give you our money for nothing to show for it,” wrote one. “’Priority 1’ has become the new version of ‘check is in the mail,’” fumed another.
Where does GM turn for friends when even the Camaro fanatics have had enough?
Well, I honestly hope all this interest and competition in hybrids produce common, cheap, reliable vehicles. That’s all I ask for in a daily driver.
Franchise laws are generally awful. GM can scream that from the rooftops all they like now that they aren’t dependent on anyone except Uncle Sam.
Still, I feel sorry for the people who laid down money for the privilege of nothing. GM could at least sugar coat it and attempt to make an apology. Some pat answer about “determining demand” just makes people feel taken advantage of and angry.
So, who has the Camaro pre-order money – The dealer or GM? If the latter, the Camaro fans are going to be angrier because they will join a long list of unsecured creditors when GM files the big B. If dealers have the money, then it won’t be so bad.
Another “things NOT to do” lesson for GM-G&S (GM-Government & Successors). Write it down.
It does say something though that Toyota got 75K preorders for the Prius, when GM only got 15K for the Camaro.
What are the projected annual sales for the Camaro, and what percent of production would 15K be – ?
And yet over 30k people plunked down some cash on their smart fortwo preorders, and got their cars in roughly sequential order without any of that dealer allocation guff.
I suspect time will show Toyota has made a tactical mistake in making the new Prius too costly … especially in light of the Honda Insight and lower oil prices. Which by the way, oil is clearly overpriced again and due for another fall (none of you noticed last year when I’d claim that…)
Another big launch botched by GM. Same old company same old screw ups.
Redbarchetta :
May 15th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Another big launch botched by GM. Same old company same old screw ups.
Yep, pretty much!
Does ANYONE think post-bailout, post-C11 Gov. Motors is going to be any better? Unbelievable incompetence and waste of my tax $$.
Was it the actual Camaro cars that were delayed, or did GM have trouble with the gold chains and Italian horns they were providing free with every one? Or maybe the Bad Boy club sticker plant was shut down for awhile.
Toyota makes a forward looking state of the art hybrid and gets 75k pre-orders.
GM makes a backward looking fake antique and gets 15k pre-orders from nostalgic baby boomers wanting to relive their youth.
Then the orders do not get filled as advertised and the down payment disappears in bankruptcy.
The losses never stop even when they have a “winner”.
Read recently that Chevy has a 181-or-some-odd day supply of Camaros. So, WTFO?
h82w8 has a good point, just look at the picture. Are they sitting on these cars until they get some rust before they deliver them. Aren’t they making like 1000 a week. I have yet to see one on the road, and I think our local Chevy dealer get their first one this weekend, they keep yapping about the giant showing they are going to have tomorrow. Maybe I will drop by for some free food and to see it upclose if I can get past the mullets and gold chain gang. mikey610 that was funny.
If dealers have the money, then it won’t be so bad.
What if it’s a dealer that is to be trimmed soon? I suppose the customer would get their money back, but they may not be a Camaro customer anymore.
mikey610 :
Was it the actual Camaro cars that were delayed, or did GM have trouble with the gold chains and Italian horns they were providing free with every one? Or maybe the Bad Boy club sticker plant was shut down for awhile.
Hahahaha, thanks for that!
Camaro preorders must have attracted those who don’t watch/listen/read the news to see that GM is in the shitter. I guess it must have been worth the gamble.
And in 6 months they’ll be offering $3K incentives to push ’em out the door.
Sunrise, Sunset, The world turns and GM burns.
Karma is a biatch.
I call a 10 on the B.S. meter on this one. Wasn’t this the same company talking about build-to-order programs 10 years ago and how they wanted to get customers to order cars rather than stack them up like cordwood?
If there is a customer waiting for a black Camaro SS with a stick in Oklahoma why not send the first black SS built there instead of Ohio? I thinks they simply have layed off too many people and there is nobody left to deal with the accounting.
A company unable to deliver products to waiting customers rather than adding to an inventory backlog should declare bankruptcy immediately after getting a swift knock upside the head by the CEO’s old Harvard business school professor.
I bet they still have Camaro orders scheduled to deliver to dealers getting termination letters this afternoon.
Damn it, I am still waiting for mine (pre-order # 001PMS-MKYMSE), but I don’t care. This weekend I went to Pep-Boys and ordered the chrome Z-28 mud-guards, traction bar kit, plastic Hurst shifter, trans oil cooler kit and the big tach with shift light to go on the dash. The side pipes are on back-order.
Unless Ken Elias wants to trade in his new G-8 GT investment with me, I am sticking with my pre-order and renting at AVIS until I can get my car.
This type of customer treatment is why GM is where they are today.
I thought the Camaro was out? There’s a silver one whoring itself out around town where I live. The car is huge.
“Another big launch botched by GM. Same old company same old screw ups.”
Die, GM. Die! Once and for all, before you $%#@ up yet again.
Production is well over a thousand a week now.As most of my buddies are now retired info is scarce.
I know they got Saturdays scheduled for the summer and the first week of shutdown the flex plant runs.
I did see 2 car carrier’s loaded with Camaro’s heading west.It’s odd cause usually the car carriers have mixed loads.Anything going long distance such as the US south west would be done by rail.
BTW redbarchetta so far the launch has gone well.
Srewed up launches is more Toyota’a style.How about that Tundra launch,they pushed them out the door a little fast eh?I guess they didn’t want them sitting around too long.Woudn’t want to see the frames rot,before the tailgate fell off.
I find it hard to believe that there are 75,000 pre-orders for the 3rd gen Prius. Unless that is a world-wide number.
Toyota dealers can barely give away the current Prius. The largest Toyota dealer in the world (Longo) had about 60 in stock last month, compared to over 120+ that they normally carried. When I asked, they had 130 people on the waiting list (of course, that was 6 weeks ago so it might be more now)
Sure, there probably is some pent-up demand for current Prius who want to upgrade, but I find it hard to believe that there is 75,000 in the U.S.
Say what? We want to build the car you put down a deposit on, but franchise agreements don’t let us. This from the same company which lit a match to over 1000 franchise contracts today. BS for sure.
Die, GM. Die! Once and for all, before you $%#@ up yet again.
Don’t hold back, Commando1. What are you really trying to say? Heh! I swear, you get the gov’t in this mix and it’s gonna be hosed. totally.
One assembly factor not mentioned is that the pre-orders are likely the V-8 and six speed manuals, probably optioned up significantly.
In assembly operations there is a prescribed mix of model styles and options that is meant to use the machinery and robotics in an optimal way. In other words the plant risks deteriorating quality of fit and finish, paint, etc., and perhaps even breakdown if they just pounded out 19K V-8 SS six speed manual models in red or black in one go.
The real world of assembly doesn’t work as the fans, among others, think. The dealers are the ones getting the “Berlinettas” in beige with a V-6 auto.
Mikey, although I value your inside scoop on this site, and wish you well, the malibu launch didnt go well in New Jersey. I saw my first commercial for it watching college football the first week of sept. 08 right before the lease on my TL was up. after 6 visits to various dealers I finally found 1 – in 2009! Not to mention the ads everywhere. I asked my dealer at Christmas (classic chevy in moorestown) why the ads when there is no product. He shook his head. How many sales lost to toyota and honda over that blunder?
I don’t blame the Camaro fans. Wow.
I started reading, waiting to understand what the issue was. I never imagined it would be what was implied: Those who put deposits are NOT getting the first cars produced.
Irrespective of *any* so-called laws or dealer agreements, this does not make sense at all. With 15K orders, that should have meant that the first 15 thousands walk-ins are told “sorry, we’re sold out for xx months; the cars being delivered today are for people who placed an order 18 months ago.”
Instead, that walk-in can now walk out with a New Camaro, right past Joe Chump who is sitting waiting for his Camaro that he put a deposit on a year and a half ago.
In the annals of history, GM will be a treasure trove of the thousands of ways to trash your customers, and trash your company.
They (GM) may be waiting to replace all the battery cables and
add the wheel weights to the Brembo calipers…
http://www.camaroblog.com/image/1001…-brake-weights
LOL @ commando1
I was going to put in something along those lines, but soberly. I was going to say that Chapter 7 would be better than Ch. 11 at this point, to rid us of GM and its cultural inertia.
But “Die, GM! Die!” is a more succint way to put it, and just as accurate!
Of course Prius orders are piling up. Oil is having its dead-cat bounce, so why shouldn’t goofy golf carts do the same?
As for the Camaro, who cares? It will sell like hotcakes for about ten minutes, and then like all desperate retro-gimmicks it will roll over and die.
I’m with mikey… I’m seeing truckloads daily go by. No joke, at least one a day and sometimes 2 are on the 401 going west. They have to be going somewhere.
Perhaps there’s a particular option problem. Brake supplier? Manual tranny?
“GM makes a backward looking fake antique and gets 15k pre-orders from nostalgic baby boomers wanting to relive their youth. ”
You say that like it’s a bad thing. Try not to forget that that could be you, someday.
Camaro Marketing Manager Guy, maybe you should take a different tact when you reply on that GM forum. Tell those folks with deposits how lucky they are that they didn’t get the first Camaros, since there are recalls on them already…
Also, I call BS on the 75k preorders on the Prius like some of the other posters. No way. The old Prius stopped selling when gas fell below $3.
Anyone care to put their name on this pre-order list?
highrpm: “Also, I call BS on the 75k preorders on the Prius like some of the other posters. No way. The old Prius stopped selling when gas fell below $3.”One possible explanation for the large number of Prius ‘pre-orders’ is a program that Toyota used when the last new Prius was introduced. Toyota hired a marketing firm to contact all current Prius owners and ask them if they wanted to pre-order the next generation. The key is that no deposit was required and there was no obligation to purchase.
Consequently, it’s quite possible that Toyota is counting all of these special Prius ‘pre-orders’ against the 75k when they’re really nothing more than current owners saying ‘yes’ when asked if they’d like to order the new version with the caveat that the order can be cancelled with no penalty at any time.
My guess would be that a deposit (likely non-refundable) was required for the vast majority of the 15k Camaro pre-orders…
I find it hard to believe that there are 75,000 pre-orders for the 3rd gen Prius. Unless that is a world-wide number.
If you look at the article, the 75K clearly *is* a WORLDWIDE number, not U.S. (It’s an Automotive News Europe article quoting a Nikkei business piece from Japan with no mention of the U.S.). Obviously gas still costs far more than $3 a gallon equivalent in many markets.
Sorry, there seems to be a problem with the link I posted… Here is a good link…
http://www.camaroblog.com/image/100180528_camaro-ss-brake-weights
Kevin :
Obviously gas still costs far more than $3 a gallon equivalent in many markets.
Currently, it’s about US$3.40 per US gallon in Australia. (It varies a bit from place to place.)
Dealers hold the deposits. I wouldn’t buy a car from a dealer that demanded more than $500 deposit if the deal is at MSRP.
New malibu transacted for 5,000 more than the old malibu for the first year after it launched. Don’t know what its like since the Made-In-New York City-World-Credit-Implosion.
The recall on the Camaro is to tie down a loose battery cable. Botched launches are ones with awful J.D. Power initial quality ratings and cars piled up on Dealership lots. Successful launches are typified by people screaming to get their vehicles and shouting things like “do you know who I am ?”
State / Federal / Canadian regulations require that Manufacturers treat their Dealers in a fair and equitable manner. Dealer A sells 1000 cars and Dealer B sells 100 cars for the Factory. Unless there is something extemely different between the two markets then the manufacturer has to allocate product in a 10 to 1 ratio between the two. Otherwise people at the Zone Office end up having to explain to the Judge just why they did what they did.
Does it suck for the enthusiasists ? yes it does. But that is why there is a dialog between the Factory and the Dealership and people of integrity work out ways to get the Customer their vehicle in a reasonable amount of time. Which IMO is the first six months of production.
Maybe I am wrong about this, but I would never consider buying the very first production of a brand new model (prepaid or not) since management may be in a big hurry to move the metal, even with known problems. It has happened before, and car companies tend to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again.
Hey Kman:
In the annals of history, GM will be a treasure trove of the thousands of ways to trash your customers, and trash your company.
Years from now, folks will be thinking of GM as a genuine anal of history.
allegro
gmbuoy,
From the customer perspective, it’s pretty simple… If I put down money and I’m not the first in my neighborhood driving this hot vehicle, I’m going to be ripsh!t. And if they’re available at Avis? Double ripsh!t!
mikey: “Srewed up launches is more Toyota’a style.How about that Tundra launch,they pushed them out the door a little fast eh?I guess they didn’t want them sitting around too long.Woudn’t want to see the frames rot,before the tailgate fell off.”
As the current situation indicates, no, screwed up launches are also GM’s style. I’d rather take my chances with Toyota.
—
Are they building almost nothing but red and yellow Camaros? That’s almost all of what I can see in the picture. Our ’67 was “champagne gold” with a cream colored vinyl roof. It was attractive without being “look at me!” bright.
And that picture’s from March 7? Shouldn’t these things be all over the place? If they were building in early March, I’d think it would be no big deal to have pre-orders out of the way by now.
gmbuoy: “Does it suck for the enthusiasists ? yes it does. But that is why there is a dialog between the Factory and the Dealership and people of integrity work out ways to get the Customer their vehicle in a reasonable amount of time. Which IMO is the first six months of production.”Well put. Ordering a vehicle is always a trade-off. This is especially true when it’s a brand new model. While it’s great to get a vehicle that’s been built and tailored exactly to one’s own personal specifications, that luxury is paid for not only in money but in time, as well.
I once ordered a 1994 4th generation f-body. Because it was an extremely low-optioned version of the mid-level model, it took eight months to finally arrive at the dealership and was one of the last vehicles built for that particular model year.
That’s really the key. Manufacturers prepare build schedules in advance to ensure that they actually have all the parts and then build cars in batches since it’s a whole lot cheaper and efficient to do it that way. A particular set of options is entered into the computer and, if the customer is lucky, it’s a common combination and will be scheduled to be built in a relatively short period of time.
If, OTOH, someone wants some odd combination (like I did in 1994), well, it’s going to take a while before the manufacturer accumulates enough of those combinations to schedule the build.
The only real beef I could see coming from somone that had pre-ordered a brand new model and hadn’t yet received it is if they saw or heard of a vehicle arrive somewhere that had the exact same combination of color/options as they had ordered.
Does ANYONE think post-bailout, post-C11 Gov. Motors is going to be any better?
I think they would have a hard time doing worse…
Does any one at GM learn from the F’ups?
I think I have seen this movie before…
Last time I saw it, it was called “2004 GTO”
Jay Leno loves the new Camaro. Fits his demographic perfectly:
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=1100101
Old men love living in the past. Trouble is the world has changed and left them behind.
Also, I call BS on the 75k preorders on the Prius like some of the other posters. No way. The old Prius stopped selling when gas fell below $3.
This, class, is what we call a lie. Make note of it. From this article, with an appropriately gloomy headline:
With a new model coming very soon, ToMoCo was still able to move 8,385 units last month.
Camaro pre-order folks are anxious that their new car hasn’t yet arrived. And the story is…? As far as the Toyo hybrid stuff- that is most likely hogwash. I don’t see anyone clamoring for one right now.
“But “Die, GM! Die!” is a more succint way to put it, and just as accurate!”
Spoken like a true TTAC’er!
highrpm:
“Also, I call BS on the 75k preorders on the Prius like some of the other posters. No way. The old Prius stopped selling when gas fell below $3.”
rudiger replied:
One possible explanation for the large number of Prius ‘pre-orders’ is a program that Toyota used when the last new Prius was introduced. Toyota hired a marketing firm to contact all current Prius owners and ask them if they wanted to pre-order the next generation. The key is that no deposit was required and there was no obligation to purchase.
I haven’t been contacted. I ordered my ’04 Prius and still drive it. It just had its fifth birthday, and is running great. I plan to keep it another three years.
KixStart :
“If I’m not the first…”
Fair enough from that dealership you put your money down and you have the first buildable order. But the “I ordered one and can’t get it but there is one at the Walmart” comments are just not realistic. And you have to order from a dealer who actually has allocation. Which only the dealership can tell you
97escort: “Jay Leno loves the new Camaro. Fits his demographic perfectly”I recently checked out the new Camaro. It’s a nice car but, just like the last one, it’s a bitch to see out of. If I were in the market, for regular use, I’d rather have a new Mustang, or maybe even a Challenger (if Chrysler ever puts an appropriate, retro-styled steering wheel and dash in it).
Of course, with Chrysler a mere few seconds away from shuttering, it’s unlikely that any Chrysler products will be around much longer, period.
Gm’s Fitzpatrick didn’t by any chance graduate from Faber College in 1963, and belong to Delta house and have the frat name “Otter”, did he?
“You guys who plunked down deposits for new Camaros? You fucked up! You trusted us!”
“Was it the actual Camaro cars that were delayed, or did GM have trouble with the gold chains and Italian horns they were providing free with every one? ”
Similar to situation when new Honda Civic was introduced- Cement gel for spiked hair, non matching primer hood, under frame neon blue lights, asian gibberish windshield decals, fart can exhaust pieces all delayed.
2010 Camaro: Great car, horrible timing.
After the long delay from 2002, the hype machine had to start up early, lest there be no pre-orders to bitch about.
Be patient, fans, you’ll get your cars, but maybe not from the dealer where you placed the order :-(
gmbuoy,
“Matt” wrote this on FastLane: “You can add me to the list of frustrated R6P buyers. My car has been sitting in some lot 4B00 since April 2nd. Ordered in October. I sit back and watch as more and more of these fine cars show up on the streets and at the dealership while I have to field the daily question multiple times “Wheres your car?””
Other cars at the dealership?? This isn’t some “allocation” BS, this is sending unsold cars out for big dealer markups and putting the deposit cars on hold.
rudiger,
Newsflash for you… It’s not 1994 any more. Honda can build their entire product line on a single assembly line, if need be. If GM can’t build the same basic car to arbitrary option specs pretty quickly, it’s time to fold up the tents and go home.
gmbuoy,
“Duane” added this to FastLane: “I ordered my new Camaro on 11/28, which was the day after I found out that they were taking orders. Saturday I drove by my dealer and they have 4 new Camaro’s on the lot 4 sale. After ordering a car that I had not seen the finished product of and waiting for 5 months. I get to see others walk into the dealer and drive off with a car that they can test drive. Something about this just doesn’t sit well with me. What a great way to say thanks to the loyalists that could not wait to get their order in. Let those who could not make up their minds get them first…. Maybe I will have mine just in time to store for a Minnesota winter………………”
This problem has nothing to do with “allocations.”