A TTAC reader writes:
So I’m down to considering three cars for my next purchase. As my soon-to-be commute is something like 7 minutes, I’m not overly concerned with putting an ape-load of miles on whatever I buy. My heart is focusing in on three cars: 1) pre-2006 Mazda Miata, 2) 2005 or so MINI (although I’m slightly considering a lease of a new one, just because I don’t intend on driving the wheels off of one), and 3) a 2006 Civic Si. I’ve driven three Miatas and while I desperately want to love this car, each test drive (two Mazdaspeeds and one LS) has left me disappointed. They are so very jittery and nervous. I have driven two MINI Cooper S and am head over heals as to how they felt driving them, but I’m truly concerned regarding reported reliability. The Civic Si would seem the best compromise in terms of performance and reliability. Head says Civic Si, heart is leading towards MINI (I have yet to drive the “base” Cooper. I don’t really need 168 HP for a five minute commute). What say the B&B?
How about another candidate? The Mazda3. Or MazdaSpeed3 for maximum performance. If that’s not on the table, my choice would be the Miata. I loved our 2001 LS as a commuter, and it was dead reliable. The Mini would worry me a bit as well, regarding reliability, and the Civic is just a real yawner for me. All the power is near redline, and who drives like that? On top of that, the interior is, IMO, hideous, and I don’t think the ride/handling compromise works out all too well.
Miata, it’s always enjoyable and it’s a convertible, can’t beat either of those!
Second would be the Civic Si, if only because MINI’s are expensive as all hell to fix if not under warranty. May as well buy a used BMW if your going to go along with pricey repair costs.
Unless you plan on modding the SI, don’t bother. The SI is the wet noodle of the fun car party.
My perspective:
Miata is my choice, but 1999 and up. A gold-standard shifter/clutch/tranny by which all others are judged. Bulletproof engine. Telepathic steering. Convertible.
The Mini is actually one of the few over-two-seaters I’d consider at the moment (actually the Fit as well). Looks that have held up incredibly well, and not gotten tired, great handling, fun, great gas mileage, but some reliability issues.
Civic – love the looks, but THE WORST visibility if talking coupé. My bro has one. Too-raked hood and horribly wide c-pillar make it a terrible parallel parker. Goofy steering wheel too.
7 minutes commute? The ideal distance to take a bike. I know I know, this kind of advice is unwanted. But I got to say it: people who love cars don’t use them for distances so short the oil doesn’t even get hot.
If utility is not a concern, I would say Miata. RWD, convertible, light, and it is simply awesome on the track. Pay it off now, and then when you need a more practical vehicle you will have an incredible toy.
The outgoing Mazdaspeed3 has been advertised at $20K locally – is that within your budget?
What Martin said. Get whatever you want to drive on the weekends and use something else (bike, skateboard, roller blades, whatever) to get to work. Your fitness level will love you for it, and you won’t kill your car with short drives.
I love the MINI, too. Of the three you’ve listed that would be my choice, but reliability issues scare me as well.
The Mini. Obviously it is the one that puts a grin on your face. Nothing is better than enjoying getting into your car, even if only for a seven mile commute. Obviously the Miata doesn’t do it for you, and it is really a better second car than it is an only car. The Civic might be a smart choice, but do you really want to regret and resent it every time you hop in?
If the 2nd-gen Miata is too nervous for you, try the new one. I have a 2002 Miata and if you don’t like it on a short test drive, you’ll hate it on anything more than 30 minutes long. It’s noisy and jittery and nervous, which is good by me (except the noise) but not for everyone.
The nervousness can be changed with toe-in, and the jitteriness is probably just because Miata shocks are blown by 50,000 miles. But I still think you wouldn’t like one with new shocks and toe-in. It’s definitely a compromised vehicle.
You already like the MINI… if you buy anything else you’ll just wonder why you didn’t buy a MINI when you had the chance.
Miata. Miata. Miata.
(OK, I may be biased by the ’97 sitting in my garage…)
If the Miatas feel “jittery and nervous,” I’d check the tire pressures. Dealers routinely overinflate them. 28-30 psi is ideal. But the Miata handles like no other car out there.
Really, though, for a 7-minute commute, Martin is right – a bicycle is probably a better idea.
I’m with the biking crowd…I do it quite often and am not in the best physical shape either (relatively speaking). We have a Mazda3 wagon and a 760, the Volvo hardly gets used for the reason that I don’t drive to work often and it would be hard on the vehicle.
Also, biking to work can sometimes offset a less fuel-efficient vehicle if your heart so desires. I’ve considered a basic Xterra (after several rentals going where Hertz doesn’t want me to…for work) because it would be great in the backcountry of Idaho and the Rockies, and not driving everyday would keep costs down.
7 minutes commute? The ideal distance to take a bike. I know I know, this kind of advice is unwanted. But I got to say it: people who love cars don’t use them for distances so short the oil doesn’t even get hot.
I can’t speak for the reader in question, but I have a 8-10 minute commute and there is NO WAY I would attempt it on a bike. Mine is all highway and 2-lane farm road with 55 mph speed limit and there is a total of one traffic light. Even if I don’t consider the traffic dangers on the 2-lane, 55 mph farm road, the bike ride would probably take close to an hour.
Maybe the reader has a similar commute and a bike isn’t feasible. My oil gets plenty hot by the time I reach work.
If it’s your only car, go with the MINI, more utility, more all-wheather fun then the miata, and the base model with the stick will be less jittery then a miata, but I have an 06 S, and long road trips are no problem.
The current generation is overburdened with electro-doohickies though, so I would stick with 05ish.
I immediately thought Mazda 3 as well. You didn’t mention a budget, but the cars are in a big range. You can get a 2001-2 miata around here for about $6k, 2007 for $10k. Recent Civic Si, even used will run about $12-$15k. Mini about the same, but as mentioned the mini will end up costing much, much more. What about other possibilities, do you work on cars? You could make it pretty interesting if so. Even if not, you can buy something for $6-$8k and then spend another $5k having a good shop bring it to perfection. WRX, BMW, I’ve seen late 90s M3s for $6-$9k depending on condition. Old American Muscle, maybe a Chevelle. A 7 minute commute is nothing, so you probably aren’t that concerned about gas mileage.
You do have a dilemma. What you need is to find a reliable car that floats your boat. Used 3-series? Used S-2000? WRX?
Interestingly enough, according to the 2008 annual auto issue of Consumer Reports, the Mini reliability, owner satisfaction, and owner cost are all tops, so that may be your answer (I’ve displaced the 2009 AAI of CR, much to my chagrin). Good luck. And give us an update.
Miata every time – it’s a real sports car the other are not.
I commute 3 hours a day with my 2002 Miata, and I would second the tire pressure comment. I also to road trips in excess of 7 hours a day in it on a regular basis. Every time I get it back from the dealer, I have to let 5-7 lbs. out of each tire. It goes from being nervous (bad) to simply being uber-responsive (good). Sure, the suspension is stiff (it’s a sports car, duh), but with 28-30 psi in the tires, even the 16″ rims are comfortable.
The Miata is a sports car first, commuter second, which works for me. The other two are just compact commuter cars that have been tarted up a bit.
The Miata is RWD, has wishbones at all 4 corners, is light and perfectly wighted, and has the 5 second top down option. All things that the other two cannot offer.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan of the Mini (which I’ve driven several times), and of the older Civics (I owned a CRX Si). They are a lot of fun to drive, but the Miata is in a whole different league. I’ve also driven the newer Civics, which are not nearly as good as the older ones from a fun to drive perspective.
The bottom line is, do you want a real sports car? If the answer is yes, then go for the Miata. It’s also bulletproof reliable and good on gas.
Theodore is right about overinflated Miata tires. When I drove home my ’08 Miata from the dealer it was very bouncy. I checked the pressures the next day and all the tires were overinflated by at least 10 psi. It made a huge difference. When the dealer called and asked how I like the car I told him about it and he’s answer was basically “what do you want me to do?”. Idiot.
Anyway, I love the Miata but it’s definitely more of a second car than primary. Maybe you should check out an NC Miata, they are a little larger and more substantial feeling.
I had a 91 miata. Didn’t find it jittery, though obviously the steering is fairly direct if you are used a Detroit land yacht.
I wouldn’t touch a used Mini out of warranty. Google Mini transmission failure. Loads of horror stories with ultra expensive transmission repairs and there seems to be an assumption that it will fail just outside warranty. If you go Mini, go with the lease on a new one.
No advice the choice though. Kind of apples and oranges here.
Miata.
Had this decision in Feb – factors that sold me on the civic: 1) lower insurance 2) wider availability and generally lower cost of parts (miata and cooper both relatively low volume)3) more service options 4) back seat.
Of course, you’re right, I made this decision with my head – but 4 months later, after the newness of every car wears off, still pretty pleased with myself.
How many gay jokes a day do you want to be the butt of?
If it’s “zero”, get the Si.
If you’re okay with a small number, but nothing excessive, Mini.
If you think they’re smashing and simply fabulous, Miata.
For those of you commenting on the 7 minute commute….
If he lives in a rural area, this may be 7 minutes @ 70mph.
If he lives in an urban area it may be 7 minutes @ 5mph.
7 minutes @ 70mph = 8 miles which would suck if it was snowing or raining on a bicycle.
With that being said, I haven’t driven any of the three but I’d probably pick miata, si, mini in that order.
Also: riding a bicycle on my “20-30” minute commute in Chicago is asking to be killed.
Really? Gay jokes? It’s hard to claim masculinity as the driving force behind selecting any compact car. Besides, most of the gays I know covet the Wrangler…
Whatever you do, don’t buy a Miata. I’m stuck with the one I’ve owned since 1994 since there’s nothing out there I would like better. It’s too much driver involvement combined with the joy of not giving a second thought to parking it anywhere (because, after all, it’s just a Miata). I’m ruined for just about anything else out there right now. Don’t let this happen to you.
As a side note, the 1999-2005 Miatas are considerably more stable than the 1990-1997s, which were arguably more fun but also more “darty”. They all like to change direction very quickly and easily, it’s part of their charm. Having owned a 1990 as well, the 2002 seems positively glued down in comparison.
It’s not unsafe, it’s just a car that is very willing to change direction with minimal input. It’s part of why they are considered so “telepathic”. You get used to it very quickly, and come to love and appreciate it.
I would also consider looking at the 2006+ Miatas, since they redesigned the suspension (it’s now multi-link in the rear), and it feels even more glued, and less darty, without loosing that telepathic feel.
@ Strippo:
LOL!!! My sentiments exactly.
Once you own a Miata, there’s nothing on the road quite like it.
@ PeregrineFalcon:
How many ricer jokes do you want to be the butt of?
I’m sorry to hear your ego is so fragile. You’re missing out on a simply fabulous driving experience. :)
My experience has been that girls really like the Miata, which is great for me. Since I’m not interested in dating men, I’m not actually trying to impress any of the ignorant, homophobic, pinheads who make “gay Miata” jokes.
As someone who has owned both cars recently, let me give you my view.
I had a Civic SI, 2007. Nice car. Looks like literally every third car on the street. Keep it in high RPM’s and it’s very nice. Stereo was OK, seats kinda sucked, not that comfortable. Handling was meh–after they got rid of the true independent rear suspension it just lost…a lot. The car feels really big, but it’s small. It does sound awesome when the VTEC kicks in, and it gets you just flat MOVING when that happens. Nicely balanced, no torque steer.
I had a Mini, 2003 Cooper S. It is the finest car I’ve ever had. Handles like a dream. Since I’m married with no kids, it’s an extremely practical car, and can carry a whole lot of stuff (costco trip? no problem. 6U rack mount database server? No problem.). Easy to load and unload. Heated seats (which are completely full of WIN in the midwest). Huge sunroof. Comfortable seats for long trips. The MINI is a small car that feels like a small car. It’s a go-cart and it never let me down.
The Civic has a usable back seat. The MINI does not. I’m 6’4″. The Civic felt cramped all the time. The MINI was comfortable.
The brakes…The MINI’s brakes could stop you, as Jeremy Clarkson put it once, so hard you wish you’d hit the tree instead. The Civic’s brakes are comparatively LAME. Let me put it this way: I parked my MINI in the office parking lot next to a Chevy Silverado with the SS “High Performance” package. This is a big, half ton pickup, probably 340 hp and gobs of torque, capable of towing a boat the size of my house.
My brake disks were bigger.
The MINI is *way* more fun to drive. Not even in the same category. Less power than the Civic, but you can carry a LOT more through turns. And unless you’re going for a land speed record, turns are where the fun is anyway. The MINI is way more practical if you don’t need a back seat, the Civic’s trunk kinda sucks for loading things. I couldn’t fit nearly as many (or as big) things as I did in the MINI. The MINI also comes with MINI service. Honda service isn’t bad, but MINI service is just legendary. The Civic felt HUGE, the MINI felt like a go-cart.
The MINI got turned in at the end of lease, and I was genuinely sorry to see it go. The Civic was traded in for something else because it was…meh. Nice car, but totally bland.
For such distance – get yourself a bicycle.
@lawmonkey – It’s not so much about it being the driving force as the fact that jokes will be made at his expense.
Of course once you outdrive the joker in question, you can then declare them “your bitch.”
@kgurnsey – Please order fresh batteries for your sarcasm detector. And most girls love all convertibles – it’s the ones that shun the Sebrings and go for the Miata that are the keepers.
All three have points in their favor, but I would go with the one that makes you feel good every time you drive it, the Mini. But if you’re really that concerned about the reliability, then the opposite of that is the Civic. Then again if you really want a sports car, get the Miata. (Sorry I couldn’t help.);-]
@ PeregrineFalcon:
While I’m out, I’ll pick up a couple for your facetious-detector, it seems a bit low too.
I’m just saying, no matter what you drive, someone will make fun of your choice for one reason or another. So drive what you like, and to hell with everyone else.
By the way, I totally second the keepers comment. That’s a good call, and has been my experience as well.
Depends on who you are.
The Miata is a chick car.
Minis are driven by aging ex-yuppies like my stockbroker who is 64 and has a beard.
Civic Si is for ricers.
Good lawd, man! A SEVEN minute commute??
Buy a $1000 beater and a new IPOD.
But if you must…
Get a 1st gen Miata, Monster Miatarize it with a Cobra V8 and turn that 7 minutes into 3 1/2.
Damn, now I want a Miata.
Last I checked, insurance wasn’t bad at all, probably lower than a Civic SI. They’re not typically driven by young males.
It all depends on the climate of where you live.
If you can have the top down 50% of the time or more, get the Miata.
If you live in a colder climate, like the midwest or northeast, then it comes down to distance to the MINI dealer.
If the MINI dealer is within 15-20 minute drive, get the MINI.
If the MINI dealer is a long schlep, get the Honda.
There, that was easy.
@kgurnsey – Let’s not get all anal over wordplay here, I’m sure if we took a long, hard look at the situation we’d both come to the same conclusion.
;)
@ PeregrineFalcon:
Agreed. Truce.
@ Robert Shwartz:
Is your personality defining the car, or does the car define your personality? Hmmm…
If you cannot handle a Miata, then the Civic is the way to go. Coopers are cute but plagued with problems.
I own a Civic Si and am ambivalent: It’s noisy, cramped and uncomfortable as a commuter, and it hasn’t been particularly reliable. But it’s turned out to be a particularly fun autocross car — if weekend abuse is the point, it seems to thrive on cruelty. For weekend trips I’d grab a Miata in a heartbeat.
If you’re after reliability, only one car comes to mind. I bought my Civic, because my friend had one for 378100 miles before the engine gave out. A lady I know has a son who has one with 250000 miles and it’s just getting broken in. Just remember to change the timing belt every 120000 miles or so.
I own a 2006 Scion xA for my five minute commute.
/it was eight minutes
//but then I bought a house even closer to work than my old apartment
///I paid $150k for the house
////the last guy paid $400k for it
Forgot to add – my 2002 Miata has been fraught with minor problems. It’s not a quality car, especially with the 6-speed manual (get the 5).
I can’t make a serious recommendation out of these three because I’m not interested in any of them nor have expertise about them. However I will say, from the start what doesn’t make sense to me is that they all reflect greatly different total costs of ownership.
Short commutes are great but I don’t think it’s wise to buy a car based upon your current commute. It should suit your needs (cost, performance, space, winter utility) because after that it shouldn’t matter if you have a 5 or 50 mile drive to take.
Leasing seems like a terrible idea in this market. New cars are cheap and used depreciation, especially on luxury/niche vehicles is huge. Steals everywhere except for the 5-10k used car market.
If you aren’t close to a Mini dealer I would knock that off the list immediately.
I just bought a WRX and I think it’s a great combination of speed and everyday usefulness. I wish I had driven a Mazdaspeed3 – you should look at both these cars.
But from your choices… I’d go Civic Si, but that’s just me. The others, while great, are too “cute.”
I went through a similar conundrum (I was buying new, and we don’t have a MINI dealer in town, so that was out), and it came down to the Civic Si and the Mazdaspeed3. The Si was just a good car. I own an 06 Civic EX coupe already, and basically love the car, even with the quirks. The bi-level dash is great for 99% of the driving we do, there is more road noise than I’d like but it’s not bad even on long trips. I found the seats comfortable (6’3″ 210 or less), but headroom is lacking in comparison to everything except my Miata. Anyhow, the Si was good…it was hard to really love anything about it other than the shifter, which was quite good. The engine is great, but it feels overwhelmed compared to the Civic/Integra glory days, both by the weight of the car and by the modern turbo/supercharged competition. Compared to my EX, it never felt like a harder, less manageable car. The ride was slightly firmer with a noticeable improvement in stability and handling, and the engine was very docile until called upon (for better or for worse). I went in expecting the Si to be my preferred car, but the Speed3 was better in every way except the shifter and ride plushness. If you can afford the Speed3, it makes the Si feel positively dull, and the hatch can come in handy :)
On the Miata (99, 5 speed) front, after owning it for 5 years I just have never 100% fallen for it. Mine has had a few things replaced, and needs a few more, but unless I have the top down and I’m driving an enjoyable road, I just get out of the car feeling stressed out. I think the high-strung nature of the car (high freeway revs, a bit nervous, 65mph shimmy) add up to just grind on my nerves after a while. Oh, and 1 gay joke in 5 years, by a frathole, so it wasn’t entirely unexpected. Anyone who makes a gay joke about a car usually knows as much about cars as they do about tact (read: nothing).
A coworker had a Cooper S for a while, along with 2 Miatas, so I guess he’d make a good example for you :) His 03 Cooper S was his daily driver (~45 minute commute), but coming from his 97 Miata, he said it was more relaxed, but still fun when it needed to be. I liked it the few times I rode in it, but he and the other MINI owner I know have complained about not having a service center locally – something to look at pretty thoroughly before really considering them.
GTIs are pretty cool, but I wouldn’t touch one with a 10′ pole due to the dealers here – and buying used is dicier than with the Japanese competitors. I’m hoping VW really turned a corner starting with the MkV Jetta/Rabbit, as the data seems to point in a good direction for them. I still hear bad stories about dealers (not just locally, but on various forums) with much higher frequency than the Subaru, Mazda, and Honda forums I browse.
Another option is to track down a 1st gen TSX – I think it’s a really well-rounded car, but the used market really loves the 6spd models (read: a bit on the expensive side). Also, an S2000 would be worth a look to see if a clean one would fit in your price range.
As a current MINI Cooper S owner (2003 model with Sport Package) I’d offer a few tidbits from my onwership experience.
Since you are looking at used vehicles, I assume dolars are finite. The Cooper S has run flat tires, low profile, on 17″ wheels. They are not cheap. Some people have replaced them with standard tires, however the local BMW dealer in Pgh will not do this, nor will NTB, for any car that has RFT as standard equipment. My Contipro Contact SSR’s were about $250 a piece, plus mounting. The OEM Dunlops are about $100 more per tire.
The car drives great, but living in Pittsburgh, our highways are generally terrible, so you don’t just feel every blemish in the road, you EXPERIENCE them.
I bought this vehicle as a lease turn-in and bought an extended warranty. I am glad I did. In the 26 months I have owned this car, I have had the driver’s window motor replaced twice, new bearings put in the rear, new bushings put in the front, and several phantom rattle sounds addressed.
I have started traveling to rural areas of PA for work, and am not crazy about having RFT’s for the trips. I have AAA, but I don’t know that AAA would be able to replace a relatively rare RFT. It’s true that punctures are not problem for a RFT, but damage the sidewall and they are done.
I’ll be ISO a new vehicle in the near future, and I’m not considering a MINI, thought that has as much to do with space issues as it does maintanance costs.
7 minutes…who cares? You won’t be in the car long enough to warm up the seats in the winter.
Or a bike. Any bike will work for ~3 miles.
Heck, why not walk?
Honda S2000?
MUCH more reliable than the MINI, just as nimble as the Miata, and not as boring as the Civic.
Just try one.
i love my MK5 GTI. its been dead reliable for 33k miles. has a better interior then the civic or the mini. more room the for people and stuff. handles great and has plenty of power. AND on the highway i get over 30mpg regularly.
with that said. i would get the miata. everything is better topless…even going to work
What is the best price you can get on a new Civic Si vs. the best price you can get on a used one?
From what I’ve heard due to their low depreciation, Civics don’t really make that much sense to buy used – at least at the 3 year mark.
You can get 3.9% for 60 months plus $1000 cash back that puts the price of a new Si at $19,166.
Used you’re looking at 14 to 15k.
If you assume a Civic is going to last 15 year and go 220k miles, then your used civic has used up 20% of it’s useful life.
80% of 19,166 = 15,332.
So, at most you’re saving about $1000 buying used vs. buying new.
Doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, Mini’s have the highest resale value of any car and aren’t all that reliable. That’s a bad combo!
I would go with leasing a Mini for 3 years on a 12K mile lease. There are some good lease deals from BMW if your credit is reasonably good. It’ll be pretty cheap. As with BMW’s they’re wonderful cars to own when the warranty is new. Even if you choose to buy instead of lease, plan to sell it shortly before the warranty expires. Get the Cooper S. It’s not much more money but a lot more enjoyable. Mini’s hold their resale value very well – a good point both in buying or leasing.
The Miata isn’t right for a 7 minute drive… you’ll never put the top down because it’s not worth it for the short drive, just to put it up again when you park the car.
The SI won’t be fun either, because in 7 minutes, you’re not going to get to play with that VTEC…. you’re going end up staying in the lower revs where it’s gutless.
Now, if you had a 20 minute mountain drive, my answer would be different.
I’d look at this.
If you plan on using it for spirited driving and going to the track at times – then I’d put the Miata higher on my list. They are an absolute blast. However they handle pretty evenly so not sure why yours was twitchy.
With your comments I’d honestly steer towards FWD cars – easier to drive all year round and have safer understeer.
The Mini’s are fun but the base is a dog compared to the S model. However you’ll pay much higher price to get one but it’ll also hold resale better. They are pretty reliable as have several friends with them.
I typically sway towards Honda as the Si has a lower price, great resale value, is fun to drive and fast when a good driver is behind the wheel, and reliable. Plus as much as the company is not perfect – they do stand behind their cars and often go above and beyond if you run into issues.
About that Miata dartiness: I don’t experience it, but I own a base model with manual steering. It’s allegedly bad for autocross because of the compromised steering ratio, but it’s great for road feel day to day. I highly recommend a from-the-factory manual rack (not merely “de-powered”) if you don’t plan to be a weekend warrior.
Honda S2000?
MartinS- especially a recumbent, sure you might feel like you’re going to be killed at every turn but you can go really fast.
Peregrine Falcon- where do VW or Audi convertibles fit in that list?
I’d go with a Civic Si sedan, because just a few times you may want passengers.
I think the claims of MINI unreliability are the typical “It’s European so it must fall apart” comments. CR says average to better.
Go with the SI. Its fun to drive.
I race an 08 Sedan competitively in the stock class and consistently kick the crap out of more powerful sport compacts AND rwd sports cars – good tires do a lot for the car.
And when you open it up to modifications, nobody has an aftermarket like Honda.
Not to mention – FUEL ECONOMY! RESALE VALUE! RELIABILITY! CHEAP REPAIRS!
Yes, its awesome.
I have an even shorter commute to work every day, even when school is in and I drop my daughter off in the morning. It’s a 2 minute, 4 when I drop her off. I think I would get killed if I did it on a bike, people do not know how to drive around here, they rarely see me when I’m on my motorcycle.
I felt the same way about the Miata, just wasn’t my cup of tea compared to my Alfa Spider. Maybe the newer generation has gotten better but it doesnt look like it from what you said.
I would be all for the Civic Si if you could still get it in a hatch back. The was a fun car with a lot of practical room in the back and decent visibility out back. I loved the engine but only when I was caning it.
I would get the regular MINI, I really enjoyed driving it, I didnt even need the added power of the S. Lots of fun in turns. Lease don’t buy.
Another option would be a 2005-07 Subaru WRX, blast to drive, power and practical space. I often try and turn my 2 minutes commute into a minute or less when I’m leaving the office late at night in our Legacy GT. I just wish their were a few more “S” curves
I also vote Miata. It’s a great car, and will tolerate short drives (many of which will spontaneously morph into long drives) quite nicely. It’s not overly expensive to maintain, and the easy top-down feature is hard to beat.
It’s not in the car’s nature to be “jittery”. If you have a jittery Miata, then there’s something else at work here. Therefore I second the motion about checking the suspension and the tire pressures. Or maybe the tires need to be balanced or just plain replaced.
It’s also possible that the car you drove was in an accident. Check! Don’t rule them all out just because of the behavior of one specimen.
=====================
Something here that bothers me; comments made by one or more other posters, in this thread, as well as in prior Miata-related articles. It doesn’t happen often, but this is not the first time.
I owned a Miata for 10 years. Never ONCE was I the subject of any jokes, gay or otherwise. For the record, I am a straight male, confident of my masculinity. I’m friends with just about everybody I know, regardless of their own choices and/or orientation.
The only gay-related comments I’ve EVER heard associated with the Miata were guess where?
Here, on TTAC, by the occasional ignorant or judgemental commenter, or possibly by somebody who wants to shut down conversation or disagreement. Never once have I heard of this so-called stereotype anywhere else; only here on TTAC, and only by commenters not associated with the editorial board.
I’m savvy, and I know some of the cultural signs that people display. And I drive a lot, so I see a lot of cars. That’s a lot of window stickers, bumper stickers, drivers, passengers, license plates, and so forth.
In all my driving, I do not see “telltale” window or bumper stickers (signifying membership or a sentiment of support) on any one type of vehicle more often than on others. I do not see any other cultural “telltales” on one type of vehicle more than on others, either.
So I want to know the TRUTH from those who posit that “Miata=gay”. There appears to be no evidence to your theory, so why keep pushing this? What gives? Have you really got it in for the Miata, or just for people who like to drive the Miata?
Actually, that’s a rhetorical question; I don’t really expect an answer.
Someday, I may own another Miata. To me, there’s no stigma of any kind associated with such a great car!
get a bike or walk. then your criteria for a vehicle might change. Mine did.
Of these, i’d get the Mini, but a convertable. A little more storage and people room then the miata. base car for me.
MikeyDee:
I would argue that the car on the list with perhaps a better reliability record than the Civic is the Miata. I’ve owned both, and had fewer problems with the Miata. Miatas (or Miatae, depending on who you talk to) are very well known for being bulletproof. My 2002 has 120,000 miles and runs like new.
I know a guy who autocrossed his Miata every weekend in the summer for 60,000 miles straight, took the engine apart to rebuild it, and just threw it back together because there was no need to rebuild it.
There are multiple stories of Miatas with 200, 300, 400 thousand miles that are still going strong with minimal repairs.
Lokkii:
When the top goes up or down in fewer than 5 seconds, you’ll end up putting it down for a zip around the block. A 7 min commute is more than enough time.
sean362880 and moospot:
The S2000 is a brilliant car, but compared to a Miata it’s not as light, not as nimble, more expensive, and has a much peakier power band. If you’re spending more money to get a less nimble, more comfortable convertible that is at home on the highway or the daily grind, I’d lean more towards an SLK, TT, or a Z4. They have more usable power, and are more stable and comfortable on the highway. Personally, I find the S2000 to be the worst possible compromise between a light sports car and a good drop top highway stormer.
Another thing that might be worth noting, considering that the person asking is doing so on an internet forum, is that he Miata has the best online community out there, full stop.
Never regretted my Miata in the 12 years I have had it.
On a side note-if anyone needs a vehicle to shore up a weak machismo they probably should hold their cash for some therapy.
Buy what you like, for your reasons, there will always be someone who thinks you were wrong.
Three great cars, my only caution would be that if reliability is important the earlier MINIs were pretty shaky.
CRs data indicates in the last year or two they have really improved. Personally I would skip the older ones.
You will have a great ride which ever way you go.
Please let us know what you get.
Enjoy!
Bunter
jerseydevil:
The 1999+ Miatae have just as much usable trunk space as the Mini, if not more. The back seats really aren’t suitable for anyone with legs anyway, though they do add some additional storage when used as a parcel shelf.
Bicycle, bicycle, bicycle.
This from a guy who commutes 21 miles each way, normally uses a motorcycle or scooter, but bicycles every Saturday (shorter work day). And it takes 1-1/2 hours on my bagged touring bike, about 1-1/4 if I do one of the racing bikes.
And I’m 59 . . . . if I can do it, you can do 7 miles.
As to the car: I’ll go Miata first, as I’m looking for one for myself as we speak. Mini second. The Civic is too bloody common. If you’re looking that route, go Mazda3. We have one, and it’s been wonderful, even if it is an automatic for the wife.
Man, get the Miata! It is the most fun, it is very reliable, and the trunk is big enough for light carrying. Plus, it’s a convertible which is a blast.
I own a 90 myself and it is the most fun car I’ve ever had. Haven’t regretted it a day. And I don’t know what to make of it being jittery, I have not experienced this.
Dependable, good resale, good fuel economy and convertible fun: go with the Miata!
PS: And don’t let anyone tell you its a “gay” car, that’s a load. If I hear someone say that, then it’s my opportunity to educate them.
The Cooper S has run flat tires, low profile, on 17″ wheels. They are not cheap. Some people have replaced them with standard tires, however the local BMW dealer in Pgh will not do this, nor will NTB, for any car that has RFT as standard equipment. My Contipro Contact SSR’s were about $250 a piece, plus mounting. The OEM Dunlops are about $100 more per tire.
Ever heard of Tirerack.com? I couldn’t wait to get the runflats off my MINI. It gave me an excuse to learn the car’s handling limits, which I still have not found. Most MINI enthusiasts ditch the runflats as soon as possible and go with better handling, cheaper non-runflats.
I’m getting the impression that one person’s “jittery” is another person’s “responsive”. A Miata should not be skitish, changing direction at random, but it should be very willing to change direction when asked. In the hands of an inattentive driver, or someone used to a lot of dead space in the steering wheel, then it might feel “jittery” at first. There is virtually no dead space on centre, and every little input produces a response from the front wheels. Unless there is something wrong with the particular car you drove, you are likely just providing inputs that have an effect on the Miata’s direction of travel, without realising it. You will get used to it, and likely come to appreciate the subtlety with which you can guide the Miata from bend to bend. Then you start to wonder why all other cars are so mushy, then it’s just all downhill from there. Pretty soon you aren’t willing to drive anything else.
Interestingly, the Mini is the only other car I have ever driven that is almost as willing to transition as the Miata. Almost. The Miata is still balanced much better, with a better suspension, but it’s impressive for a glorified FWD hatch.
The 1990-2005 Miatas do exhibit some cowl shake, or shimmy, which may invoke a feeling of being “jittery” over bumps. The later cars are better than the earlier ones, due to chassis tweaks over the years, but only to a point. They all use the same basic chassis from 1990, and although it is still a great chassis that has aged very well, the tweaks only do so much. They all twist a bit over bumps, but that’s simply indicative of the comprimise between cutting the top off and keeping the cost and weight low. Convertibles that feel more solid, like the S2000, SLK, and Z4, are also much heavier, less responsive, and more expensive. The 2006+ Miatas are a clean sheet redesign, and thus are much more solid due to advances in chassis design, computer modelling, and materials, for roughly the same cost and weight as the previous generation.
Drive what you enjoy the most. Reviews and others opinions are good when you start to look around and narrow your field of choice, but at the end of the day you need to pick what gives you the biggest grins. The consensus here seems to be the Miata, but if you just don’t feel “it” with the car, look elsewhere.
Lease a new MINI with either a 10K or 12K option. This keeps you safe under warranty (other than the hassle of keeping it in the shop)and since they have some of the highest resale value you should be able to get a good rate.
Quit with the bicycle people, seriously. If this person wanted a bicycle, I’d think that he or she would have asked Trek or Cannondale (or whatever). They clearly want/need a car. Stop with your damned agendas, it’s boring to read.
Quit with the bicycle people, seriously. If this person wanted a bicycle, I’d think that he or she would have asked Trek or Cannondale (or whatever). They clearly want/need a car. Stop with your damned agendas, it’s boring to read.
One person’s “damned agenda” is another person’s interest or helpful hint. The audience was asked for its input and a diversity of voices responded. I’m sure whoever asked the question is capable of filtering out what they want.
For your sitaution, I’d probably get the MINI. When I walk out every morning for my 25 mile commute, I see my 2003 S and can’t wait.
That being said, I am just about to turn 100k on the odometer, and have put approx $3k of my own money into it, once the warranty ran out; you’d never convince me that Lucas had nothing to do with the eletrical system. While in warranty, I did have to take it in a few times for service, and a few of those minor problems still persist. Electrical.
I will be test driving a Miata for my replacement.
But hold that thought…I will be leaving work in a few minutes and will fall in love all over again when I see my MINI out in the parking lot. Oh for the ride home!
S-
Having just bought a used 2006 S2000 (as a CPO with extended warantee) for less than the price of a new Civic SI…
Definatly look at the S2000. Its such an amazingly “tight” feeling ride.
Other than that, I’d get the Miata. You can’t beat the feeling of a 2-seat convertible.
“kgurnsey: “@ Robert Schwartz: Is your personality defining the car, or does the car define your personality? Hmmm…”
Depends. It is called expressive identification. Some folks want to have it and some don’t.
Makes for horse races.
long126mike :
June 5th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Quit with the bicycle people, seriously. If this person wanted a bicycle, I’d think that he or she would have asked Trek or Cannondale (or whatever). They clearly want/need a car. Stop with your damned agendas, it’s boring to read.
One person’s “damned agenda” is another person’s interest or helpful hint. The audience was asked for its input and a diversity of voices responded. I’m sure whoever asked the question is capable of filtering out what they want.
Yeah, but if somebody asks if they should get steak or chicken, telling them they better just go vegetarian is just rude.
Besides, one usually needs a car for more than commuting back and forth to work.
I haven’t driven a new Si so I really can’t comment on that.
The new MINI S (you were looking at a lease I believe) is ferocious though, completely unlike the older MINI I drove a few years ago. The car is flat through turns and you should try not to sneeze while driving on narrow roads, I loved it. FWD could be a dealbreaker though depending on your roads, if you have any loose surfaces then you’ll want the rear wheels driven instead. In a truly urban environment I wouldn’t say that FWD is a drawback though.
The Miata might be my favorite car ever, it’s softer than the MINI and not quite “right now” (although still far beyond most other cars). However, not having a back seat means no pet/girlfriend combos are in your future. That might very well be a dealbreaker, it was for me.
Yeah, but if somebody asks if they should get steak or chicken, telling them they better just go vegetarian is just rude. Besides, one usually needs a car for more than commuting back and forth to work.
I don’t think that analogy holds too well in this case. Perhaps I am not reading others’ suggestions correctly, but the ones that mention bicycles or walking don’t seem to be suggesting going without owning a car. I believe their point is that a 7 minute commute is extremely short, so it’s possible that using an automobile for the commute might actually be suboptimal. Most of those suggestions also seem to point out that if one were to take the commuting constraint out of the equation, it might open up thoughts about the proper vehicle for the times when the person wants or needs to drive.
For example, someone might have posed a question about which hybrid to buy, since they have a commute in heavy stop-and-go traffic. If they found a non-car solution to the commute, perhaps they wouldn’t feel the need to have a hybrid and instead opt for a Shelby Mustang.
No harm in helping someone brainstorm a problem.
I’ve been through that already. In fact, in my office, there are examples of all three cars in the parking lot. We trade wheels from time to time. Along with the three you mentioned, I also looked at the Subaru Imprezza WRX, Mazda3 GT, VW Golf/Rabbit GTI.
I picked the car I enjoyed driving the most. I spend at least 15% of my awake hours driving every day. The Miata did not fit my body frame very well. The Civic Si, though a fine car, did not make me want to drive more. The MINI had me smitten on the first test drive. It was way fun and enjoyable. A couple of 2500 mile road trips have also confirmed long distance comfort levels since owning the car.
Then there’s customer service and dealer service. I am totally in awe on how well I have been treated by MINI. When I have an issue with my car, they fix it and make sure I don’t have that problem again. The dealer treats me like a person and respect my time. Even before the warranty expired, they went through my whole car and checked on anything they thought there might be issues with. My particular MINI has had a few issues fixed under warranty. So far, I have not had to fix anything outside of routine maintenance since the warranty expired. So I think reliability issues may be slightly exaggerated. Those who have chimed in and mention how atrociously unreliable MINIs are have me scratching my head a bit. I haven’t had those problems.
Choose the car you enjoy driving the most.
To all that have commented (so far)…thanks for your insight. I figured the polling would lean towards the Miata. I know it has a stellar reputation for reliability and fun. Problem is, I’ve driven three separate Miatas (all NB…one “base” 2003, one LS 2004 and one 2005 Mazdaspeed). While I fully expected cowl shake and laser-quick steering, all three were very bounce-happy and never felt “settled.” I wanted to really love these cars, as the thought of dropping the top on my way to and from work (my addition of the seven-minute commute didn’t help the discussion any…sorry.).just flat sounded marvelous. As I live in the south, I’d have ample opportunity to enjoy the convertible life. But, like I said, all three just seemed so edgy and nervous, I would imagine that anything more than a seven minute commute would just flat wear me out. Perhaps I need to continue to test them until I find one that is properly set up. Meanwhile, both MINI I’ve driven (both S models so far) have left me smiling and wanting more…until I research the reliability of these wee beasties. I suppose commenting on my short commute had more to do with my hope (false as it might be!) that driving it so little would minimize my need to worry about the substantial upkeep. And I’m not a huge fan of leasing, but a three-year lease on a nicely equipped base (with pano roof) would run very close to a payment on a four or five year old used Miata/MINI. The Civic was fun, but yes…you need to rev the holey-wheeeee out of it to get any real power. The Honda had a decent balance of performance, usability and reliability. So…I’m probably really no closer to deciding! Maybe if I find a Miata that I can drive and not feel beat up after three minutes I’ll swing back towards the Miata…
And I’d consider biking, but my drive (short as it will be) is on a MAJOR road that runs parallel to an interstate. No thanks! I don’t need a practical car (already have one of those)…so I’m really looking at something a bit more frivolous…and these three have captured the lead in my choice.
Any other input would truly be appreciated. Meanwhile, sorry for the long response..but I guess the fun part is, I get to continue test driving until I find the one that fits!
Fair enough. If you like a planted feel, the Miata is definitely not for you. I like feeling like I’m about to fly off the road =]. Part of the Miata philosophy is that the engineers didn’t give it as much grip as it could handle – on purpose, so you can reach its limits without going all that fast. Unfortunately, in the 2006+ Miata that means it comes with a softer suspension than it needs, but maybe that’ll make it feel better to you. It’s a big change from the older models so try it out.
The Mini does better at having a Germanic planted+fun feel. I haven’t driven an Si, but the newest Civic is very nice inside and I expect it drives well too.
In any case, you have a short list of three cars. Once you get down to three, just try them out. And don’t worry about reliability… that’s more important to long-distance drivers.
threeer,
That really sounds like a tire issue to me. You will feel more bumps in a Miata than in most cars – it is a sports car, after all – but it shouldn’t feel unsettled. Maybe you could hook up with your local Miata club and get a ride/drive in one that’s properly sorted? Miata.net is the place to go for that.
Not knowing your auto-biography, might it be a matter of getting used to RWD? I’ve never owned an FWD car, so I don’t really know if going from FWD to RWD is an issue, but I never do like getting into an FWD car for the first time in a while.
This is rank heresy from a Miata owner, but you might also go look at the Solstice/Sky twins.
FWIW – the “atrocious” reliability accusations that people have been hurling at the MINI (look, you hurt its feelings, awwww) should be taken in context. The automatic CVT transmissions, particularly on older 1st gen MINIs, are prone to fail and this is a very expensive repair because it will need to be completely replaced. This transmission is what most people are talking about when they warn against the MINIs transmission being an issue. However, the manual transmission on the 6-speed “S” model has always been the reliable Getrag gearbox, and I believe that in ’05 in the 5-speed gearbox (found in the non-“S” Just-a-Cooper) became a Getrag also, an upgrade from the not-so-loved (and also less reliable) 5-speed Midlands gearbox.
Lesson: don’t buy an automatic MINI (why would you, anyway?)
To be fair, the MINI’s clutch supposedly is another weak spot for durability, but this is a much cheaper thing to replace than the whole transmission, and there are many folks out there who are racking up 6-figure miles, including track days and autocrossing, on the original clutch.
I love my MINI to death. It makes me want to drive for absolutely no reason. Buy the car that will make you feel the same way, because at the end of the day none of them are free.
I first heard about this on a news show here (Canada). Caught the tail end of a story of one seriously pissed of lady. I think she bought a used Mini from a dealer and not long after transmission failure. $10000 CDN !!! There was no resolution she had left the car (dead) with the dealer at the end of the segment.
I searched the net for the exact story but couldn’t find it. But I did find a horror show of transmission failures. Primarly the CVT, but also the earlier manuals.
Which is why I would say if you are thinking of a used Mini. Seriously research which models have transmission issues.
Contrary to my previous post, for the 2009 CR annual auto issue, the Mini Cooper reliability has dropped to Average–which is still quite respectable in the grand scheme–but the customer satisfaction is still tops, and running costs are still cheap, which should be an indicator that you’ll likely be ok on repairs. Given how much you seem to like this car relative to the other two, I’d guess it’s a pretty safe bet you’d be happiest with it. Happy driving!
@ puppyknuckles
My car is emphatically not a MINI, but I feel exactly the same way about it as you do about yours. If financially possible, using the criterion “It makes me want to drive for absolutely no reason.” is *exactly* the factor that should make you decide on one particular make and model.
You can’t really go wrong with any of these cars, so drive all of them. During the test-drives, pretend you’re commuting, and then kick it up a notch like you would on a weekend along some curvy roads. Then, drive home with the one you like the most. Easy… I think.
I test drove both a miata and rx7. I chose the rx7.
I don’t need a practical car (already have one of those)…so I’m really looking at something a bit more frivolous…and these three have captured the lead in my choice. Any other input would truly be appreciated. Meanwhile, sorry for the long response..but I guess the fun part is, I get to continue test driving until I find the one that fits!
Ever tried an MR2 Spyder?
I’m talking stock NB here. The NC is softer, yes, but I would take that as a starting point any day of the week over the NB. Mazda nailed the Speed3 and RX8 so squarely that I don’t know why the Miata can’t get a decent setup out of the box!
It’s like this: when you take a bump, go over uneven pavement, or cruise over 65mph, it doesn’t give you that reassuring firm damping that a properly tuned suspension does, but it also doesn’t give you a floaty/bouncy feeling of a boat, either. There’s just this strange feeling of long travel while still being harsh on the NBs (I didn’t drive a MS Miata, but I’ve been in a spectrum from stock to wild). You can grow to trust the car, but I still haven’t shaken the unsettled feeling after 5 years of driving mine for commuting, road trips, around town, and just for fun. On anything where you’re going balls-out, you forget all about it though :)
I think it was a suspension tuning compromise that got botched somewhere along the line because a properly set-up Miata (whether with just upgraded dampers or going all the way to coilovers – I’ve driven the spectrum) feels absolutely incredible – planted, confident, yet still very light and agile. I know exactly where threeer is coming from, and if that’s a concern about it now, I was there and said “Oh, I’ll get used to it” yet never did. If you put aside some cash for upgrades, you can take it to an absolutely magical place where you get better handling and a better ride, but that’s a whole can of worms on its own.
Also, I concur with the comments about the Miata community being among the best on the net. I think because it keeps the idiots/jerks/bigots out due to the gay stigma, you end up with people who have the cars for their purpose: driving. Helpful folks, good aftermarket support, lots of good local groups, and best of all, tons and tons of documentation on everything about every nut, bolt, and wire in the vehicle.
If I was standing where you are (I was only a few feet away :P), threeer, I’d see this as a complicated choice as between the 3 as well – so I think the S2000 is really the answer. A bit heavier than the Miata, just as reliable, faster than all 3 in a straight line, and likely keeps up in all but the tightest autoX courses with the MINI and Miata, outruns the Si on a road course, and still manages to be rather efficient overall. Plus that engine! It has its quirks, but it’s truly a magnificent car, and if Mazda doesn’t do a new Mazdaspeed Miata, I may just be forced to get one :)
I owned a stock NA, I had it up to a hundred MPH and it didn’t feel out of sorts or darty to me on good pavement.
But if I hit bad pavement, it would get crashy and unsettling. This isn’t a carved from granite, two ton Mercedes with solid roof.
This is an ultra light weight ( ~2100 lbs) open top car, chassis flex is VERY evident. I don’t think any amount of suspension tuning will make this car fun on bad roads. The NB is essentially the same car under this skin.
If you need a solid feeling chassis in a Miata, you would have to go with at least an NC (2006+). You might also try an S2000 or Solstice/Sky. These 3 all have much stiffer suspensions and more solid feel.
If I had a garage and money for a second car, I would get a newer Miata with the RHT.
Well, as I said, it’s great at full blast, but I’m not even going as far as bad pavement, just the sorts of things that are encountered in any city: bumps, uneven pavement, seams in the road, expansion joints, a single but not insignificant crack in pavement, whatever it may be. If it’s less than optimal, the stock suspension doesn’t soak it up confidently while still letting your butt know what’s going on. The technology and knowledge to do that has existed for a long time – and it’s not expensive (see: contemporary BMW 3 series, which sold for not much more in base forms in some markets around the world), nor out of place for the Miata. For example, on a car with Bilstein PSS9 coilovers, I felt everything, the ride was not any more stiff, but it was much, much, much, MUCH preferable to the stock ride in terms of confidence, predictability, and general stability. Yeah, they cost some coin, but they’re the bottom of the line when it comes to coilovers, and replacing stock with a fixed setup wouldn’t have cost Mazda that much. I’m not sure where the trade-off when the stock configuration was landed upon – they could have used more aggressive dampers with slightly stiffer springs, and the ride would have actually been better both objectively and subjectively, even in terms of comfort. I’ve ridden in Miatas with Konis under stock springs, stiffer springs over Bilstein non-adjustables, and preferred it as a passenger even. There is plenty of travel, but I just think they toned down the dampers way, way too far, and the springs weren’t tuned to work with them.
And don’t get me wrong (I believe most of the folks with Miata qualms will agree with me here) – I think a car SHOULD demand attention. It shouldn’t lie to you about what’s under the tires, either. And yes, there were plenty of cars that had setups that were far worse than the Miata – I just didn’t expect it from the Miata to the degree I get it in stock form. The chassis is so good that twice the power and a crazy suspension is easily managed by the geometry and stiffness of the stock chassis. You can go plenty fast in it, but I just think selling it as a great daily driver is going a little too far. It’s fine, but if it feels unsettled to you now, it will continue to do so. If it doesn’t feel unsettled to you, more power to you, but after driving one for 5 years, having seasoned friends go test drive them new and used, and driving several on my own in various levels of modification, there’s something about the stock NB that grates on certain people. It might be the same with the NA, but I don’t have equivalent experience with it.
Just picked up my 2002 LS Miata a few weeks back. I wish I could have found a standard-suspension car with the ABS I needed. The sport suspension and 16-inch wheels are great when I can open the taps and enjoy driving.
However it’s IMPOSSIBLE to drive softly. When riding with the wife, who is still adjusting to the sports car ride, I keep trying to reduce the crashing and jerking, but cannot.
So the car actually drives better when driven hard. The ride smooths out when you push it.