I drive a Prius regularly. It’s time to correct a few myths about hybrids:
1. A hybrid’s drivetrain is the most important part of the car
Sometimes a drivetrain is just a drivetrain. The hybrid gets all of its fuel from gasoline, so it’s just a way to drive a bigger car with a smaller engine and save gas. The hype from those who haven’t driven them much is about saving the planet, and using less gas is certainly an environmental benefit. But, really, the Prius is just a well-built practical car with good economics (100k miles, great maintenance record, cheap fuel cost, paid off, etc)—with enough cachet that you don’t look poor when you drive it. If you really want to save the planet, ride a bicycle (which I do, several days a week), walk, or make your own fuel somehow.
2. The Prius is a lousy car
Jay Shoemaker’s recent review of the 2010 Prius totally missed the point of the car. He essentially claims it is a weird car and wasn’t fun to drive. He’s entitled to his opinion, and it’s clear that he shouldn’t own a Prius (Jay should stick with the sports cars and performance sedans that he likes so much). However, for the rest of us, the Prius is an A to B car. It’s a grocery cart. It’s a household transportation appliance.
The Toyota Prius isn’t the car for everyone, but it is a nice little practical car, if that’s what you need. Green-evangelists and automotive pundits miss this entirely, though for drastically different reasons. Boring A to B cars for boring people like myself; they should probably be evaluated by different standard than a fun car that happens to be able to carry people and cargo. The volume and shape of the cargo area is more important than the 0 – 60 time.
3. Hybrids are just like any other car
Like switching from a manual to an automatic, switching to a hybrid drivetrain takes some getting used to. Toyota went to extraordinary lengths to hide this fact, but the fundamentals shine through. My girlfriend, who has driven the Prius for most of it’s 100k miles, is weirded out by the jerks and the abrupt RPM changes that happen when a automatic transmission shifts. It sounds like it’s CVTs and hybrids for us for the “family” cars from here on out. Personally, I’m most comfortable in a manual or a hybrid, since that’s what I’ve driven for most of my miles. No wonder the guy who panned the 2010 Prius didn’t like it.
4. Hybrids are the only “real” way to save gas
In addition to driving the Prius, I’ve owned a VW Jetta TDI. It was a wonderful car (except for the accursed 01M 4-speed automatic transmission), and its mileage approached that of the Prius. My 500cc Kawasaki Vulcan regularly exceeded 50mpg, and it only cost $4500 brand new off of the showroom floor. Also, I hear that a Geo Metro can exceed 50mpg. The easiest way to save gas is just to make the vehicle smaller and lighter.
The term “Hybrid” isn’t code for “saving the world.” Hybrid is code for a smooth efficient drivetrain that some people don’t like because it’s not “fun”, whatever that means. “Hybrid” does mean “I get to drive a bigger on the same amount of scary foreign oil”. Fortunately, the Prius and the Volkswagen TDI series are both small cars — so, if you were going to be driving a Ford Explorer, they do translate to real-world savings.
Volvo deserves its What Car? Green Car award. Saving gas the conventional way is just as valid. “Hybrid” isn’t magic anything, though it does help to save a little gas. The Prius would be a grocery cart with any engine.
I bought my Prius 4 years ago. Not because I love the environment (just another protection racket in my book), I just want to have the latest technology at the time. And it’s served me wonderfully the past 4 years.
The environment is “just another protection racket” ? It Is english, it’s spelled correctly, and it seems to be some form of knee-jerk cynicism but what does it mean?
Luke, thank you for an informed and rational post. I think your perspective on the Prius describes the car for exactly what it is: it’s an A2B appliance that runs on less fuel than conventional cars the same size, and it’s a reliable and dependable “grocery cart” for the 90% of people who are looking for exactly that.
It’s high time we set the hype and excitement aside; this is the “Truth About Cars”, isnt it? That they are an appliance for the vast majority of drivers. That’s all that most of them want, a reliable and dependable car that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg to purchase or maintain, and won’t leave them stranded.
The easiest way to save gas is just to make the vehicle smaller and lighter.
This is the key, right here, that so many vehicles are missing. Every little gadget added to a car adds weight, not to mention complexity and cost. An econobox used to be had on the cheap, and due to its lack of content was a true fuel miser because of the low weight that came with it. For every window motor, every power door lock actuator, every extra speaker, there is a weight penalty. For every pound added, there is a sacrifice in fuel mileage. We could all have more efficient vehicles for way less money if we’d actually buy “strippers” (and I don’t mean the ones at the gentlemen’s club). A return to the basics could save everyone some serious dough.
The Toyota Prius isn’t the car for for everyone, but it is a nice little practical car, if that’s what you need. Green-evangelists and automotive pundits miss this entirely, though for drastically different reasons. Boring A to B cars for boring people like myself; they should probably be evaluated by different standard than a fun car that happens to be able to carry people and cargo.
Right, but there are any number of other economy cars that get almost as good mileage, or in some cases the same or better (Jetta Diesel), without all the associated smug, tree-hugger-ness, or presumes cynicism. It is a lousy economy car when compared to a car like the Honda Fit. There’s nothing wrong with owning a Prius–the problem is, as South Park pointed out, their hype, and their owners (or at least some of their owners–you may not run on Smug, I don’t know.)
Agreed if your regular car is a BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Porsche or Mercedes the Prius or the Camry or Cobalt or Impala are going to suck but for the rest of us who buy 4 door family sedans or regular cars the Prius is just fine.
“Also, I hear that a Geo Metro can exceed 50mpg.”Now that’s the car Shoemaker should have reviewed if he really wanted a miserable, single-purpose car where the only area it truly excels is fuel mileage. The Prius is a frigging Rolls-Royce in comparison.
tigeraid :
June 9th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
There’s nothing wrong with owning a Prius–the problem is, as South Park pointed out, their hype, and their owners (or at least some of their owners–you may not run on Smug, I don’t know.)
———————————————-
You are stereotyping people. One Prius owner may be of the hype type. But that doesn’t make the car a bad choice.
It’s just like (at least) one American soldier raped and killed an Iraqi girl, could you stereotype all Americans are killers?
I’m not a Prius owner, nor likely to be.
However I have observed that while it’s detractors try to paint the owners as being predominantly “green freaks” trying to get some street cred for their cause the only ones I ever meet, in TTAC or real life, seem to be like Luke42.
Normal folks who want to get great mileage in a normal car.
I always wonder what is really bothering the Prius detractors. Seem pretty insecure.
When does it pay-off? Funny, nobody ever does a cost analysis when you “put a Hemi in it”. For some reason “intangible” reasons are OK in that case. Hmmm….
When I look at the Prius I see a very reliable mid-size car (interior size is what counts in my book), at a midsize price that gets 80-100% better mileage. How is this bad?
Come to think of it, the tests I have seen of the Touring package have been pretty happy with the handling…maybe I will concider one.
Pay off time? Day one.
Don’t like it, fine, there are plenty of other choices.
The owner surveys I have seen show one of the most satisfied groups out there…can’t be all bad.
Enjoy your Prii guys!
Bunter
I have driven a prius many times as my in-laws own one. I agree that is is fine transportation if that is all you want. I had always viewed it as a novelty so I didnt really hold it to the same standards I would a traditional car. My biggest gripes is the interior quality, which is adequate, but thats all. Then there is the death trap rear field of vision. They might as well remove the rear window and used the money saved on glass for a rear view camera. Perhaps the poor rear vision has a functional purpose so you cannot see the stack of cars piled up behind you when hypermiling.
It is not pretty to look at, but it is not really hideous either. Really, a good car for people who dont like cars.
Right, but there are any number of other economy cars that get almost as good mileage, or in some cases the same or better (Jetta Diesel),
This one never dies, does it?
The highest fuel economy in a non-hybrid gasoline vehicle in the US is a Yaris, which gets 32. The ’10 Prius gets 50. That’s not even remotely “almost as good.”
As for the Jetta, it gets 33. How 33 can be “better” than 50 is a math class I apparently neglected to take.
Sorry tigeraid, but subcompacts that get 35mpg are not the equivalent of a midsize that gets 45-50mpg.
Just sayin’ buddy.
And the Jetta is a compact and you are free to compare it’s reliability to the Prius.
This is a great car for normal folks.
We enthusiasts seem to forget that we are the oddities.
Cheerio,
Bunter
I don’t see why fuel efficient inexpensive cars have to be boring as well. Also, I don’t see why cars with truly sporty aspirations have to be fuel inefficient and expensive.
1. The drivetrain is the most important thing about this car…without it the Prius dosen’t get the famous milage, but most importantly, nothing else about the car (except maybe packaging) is notable enough to deserve mention. If the hatchback design was unique I’d fully support that point as the most important, but it’s not.
2. It’s a lousy car if you care to apply a reasonable standard of “all around capability” to the vehicle (it obviously excels at one or two things, but ultimately aims to be normal). If you positively hate the steering feel provided by the Mazda6, Accord, Altima, Jetta, Passat, etc… and prefer the Prius’ then I retract my statement (seriously, it’s a preference thing). Note that no one I know actually does though, and those cars are most emphatically not of the sports variety. The Prius, really Toyota, sets the low bar for no good reason here.
3. It is just a car, just like any other. Just as the 4-speed auto has unwelcome jerks and thumps, the hybrid powertrain enjoys its own little quirks. This isn’t driving with a joystick and hand throttle (now that would be a different experience), there’s still a set of pedals and steering wheel.
4. Totally agree with you. 100%
It sucks to have someone talk trash about your car, I know b/c it’s certainly happened to me enough, but sometimes it’s deserved.
enthusiasts always get stuck in the mindest of thinking everyone else is a motoring enthusiast, when in reality most people would be happier with a 4cyl camry then a 500hp RWD monster. most people have no idea what understeer and oversteer are and don’t go fast enough to invoke them anyway, nor do they care about the weighting of the steering or excellent rebound capabilities of a car’s suspension.
the vast majority of auto buyers want something that is reliable, affordable, reasonably comfortable and at least somewhat stylish. this is why cars like the corolla outsell even affordable sports cars such as the miata.
that being said, there’s no reason why someone couldn’t make a hybrid sports car.
Show of hands — who actually *gets* 50 mpg in a Prius? (Particularly in primarily highway driving, in which a hybrid is just a waste of mass.) My impression was that, in real-world driving, the difference is negligible.
(Full disclosure: I don’t own a hybrid, but the last time I Zipcar’d a Prius, I got 8 mpg.)
50 is not that much better than 32…
12000/32 = 375 gallons
12000/50 = 240 gallons
135 gallons saved. at $3/gallon that is $405/year.
That is a lot of payback time for the premium of a stripper prius over a stripper yaris.
It’s not good enough to make an investment in.
That is a lot of payback time for the premium of a stripper prius over a stripper yaris.
By that logic, there’s no sense in buying a Porsche, either. Think what you can get a stripper Yaris for. Heck, we should all go buy 1985 LTDs for $50. That’s the only rational car purchase.
I’m hungry. Could you pass me the orange? No wait, I’ll take the apple in your other hand.
while the prius isn’t bad at what it’s intended to do, i would agree that toyota would be wise to make a smaller, cheaper hybrid.
long126mike : As for the Jetta, it gets 33. How 33 can be “better” than 50 is a math class I apparently neglected to take
TDI Mike, TDI. The EPA rating on my 2002 TDI with a 5spd manual is 42/49 MPG. Here are my last 3 fillups.
The fact that I can make my own fuel on a Sunday afternoon for about $1 a gallon is just icing on the 50 MPG cake.
–chuck
yes, and your jetta is also horrifyingly overpriced and has serious questions with regards to reliability.
long126mike>
Nobody buys a porsche for fuel savings, they buy it for speed & handling.
If you buy a prius for saving fuel, it’s not that great a deal compared to a standard $12k gas car.
@Robstar:
Which is why I bought an 05 xB @ 31 mpg for $15k vs. the $20k 05 Prius @ 45 mpg four years ago. I get much more passenger room, normal maintenance, normal driving experience, cult-car status, and I don’t have to wait 12 years for the payback.
It made no sense to spend an extra $5000 to save $400 per year.
The President won’t convince me to buy such a car until it makes economic sense.
@long126mike: Well, you are technically correct. It often makes no sense to purchase a new car, but 10 million people do it annually anyway. Some do it to avoid the hassle factor of used/worn cars, some do it to impress themselves or their neighbors, some do it because they can’t control their wallet. So in fact, I once did get rid of an 05 Honda Odyssey in favor of a 98 Dodge Caravan, because I couldn’t afford the newer car.
Everyone should do a microeconomic analysis of their auto purchase, but few do. In some cases, the 85 LTD might make sense, if they don’t mind driving and fixing horrible cars.
Another often overlooked benefit of the prius – which it shares with a number of other hybrid and i think a few non-hybrid cars – is that the engine shuts down at rest (a stop light, for example). Also most of them can run to 20 or so miles per hour on electric only.
This directly benefits car exhaust fumes in crouided cities like where I live. Makes the air more breathable, I’m all for that. It would be nice to occasionally smell the flowers.
TDI Mike, TDI. The EPA rating on my 2002 TDI with a 5spd manual is 42/49 MPG.
New fuel economy standards, Chuck. New fuel economy standards.
2002 Jetta TDI with an automatic (remember, Chuck – apples and apples) is rated at… 33 mpg. Just like the 2009 Jetta TDI, whose numbers I gave. A gasoline Jetta (using premium) gets 25 mpg.
YMMV.
The fact that I can make my own fuel on a Sunday afternoon for about $1 a gallon is just icing on the 50 MPG cake.
Yeah, right. Only if you ignore the original cost of the grease, the cost of all the equipment to process the grease, the cost of the vehicle required to get the grease, and the cost of your labor — yeah, it’s $1/gallon.
You sure do like apples and oranges.
I could care less about the Prius as a car. It doesn’t fit my needs at all. I don’t criticize it’s buyers, and I don’t care why they buy them or if they like them. As an engineer I’m interested in the technology and the balances in the final product, and I must admit I find the sacrifices people are willing to take with this product somewhat amazing. But it’s their business.
Now if I could just get the Prius driving zealot equivalent to stay out of my business, then I’d be happy.
Let’s start with Cali. If Cali thinks 50mpg cars are great enough to try and force every American into them, then I’d like to see them put their money where their mouth is and prevent the sale of or use anything but 50mpg shitboxes for commuters and let’s see how that goes. I must be becoming a bit of a bitter old man, because I would give almost ANYTHING to see that happen.
You want to tax the daylights out of gas? OK, whatever. Just stop thinking it’s ok to tell me how to live and spend my own earned money.
Seriously, that’s all I ask.
Nobody buys a porsche for fuel savings, they buy it for speed & handling. If you buy a prius for saving fuel, it’s not that great a deal compared to a standard $12k gas car.
Still comparing apples to oranges, I see. By that logic, we should all ride bicycles, because that’s the lowest energy consumption per distance traveled.
In the real world, lots of people want a midsize, safe hatchback made by a reliable manufacturer that gets great mileage and has very low tailpipe emissions.
It’s your prejudice that the only reason buy a Prius is for the gas mileage. Like with any car, there’s a multitude of reasons.
I kind of wish Toyota would take the Prius drivetrain and drop it into something interesting. If they made something along the lines of a hybrid MR2 with it, I’d be interested. I’m sure it could be done and might even be a hoot to drive. If they placed the drivetrain in the middle it could be rear wheel drive too.
Sadly it seems that while Toyota can make some great appliances, they don’t care much for making anything fun.
compare:
“I don’t criticize it’s buyers”
and contrast:
“Prius driving zealot”
@gslippy:
The xB1 is probably the most sensible weird car ever built. I love my 04. It can hold 56×42 pallets! Plus, in a year and a half of ownership, I’ve averaged almost 34mpg. In warm weather, on the highway, I can crack 40mpg (aftermarket cruise control is a godsend).
On the other hand, I do appreciate the Prius– it’s a wacky gadget. To me, that’s the appeal. I would not mind owning one, if I had the cash.
Any car that takes more than 6 seconds to get to 60mph is derided by the automotive press as “slow” these days. Nobody drives at WOT, upshifting at redline in real life. Sorry.
Again, most people are happy with bland appliances, for better or worse. That’s just life. There’s a large segment of people that respond with the color when you ask them what kind of car they drive, and if you’re lucky, they precede the make and model with “I think it’s a…”
I thought the main design goal of the Prius was to lower pollution. In that it does very well, but there are now diesels that put out fewer carbons.
One thing to also consider is the amount you drive. We drive around 450 miles per month / 5,400 miles per year. Our family considered a Prius and we actually drove several rentals from Hertz. But in the end, we got a slightly used MB E500 4-Matic for $22k. It’s much more comfortable, cheaper, and has more cache than the Prius. The fuel savings over our limited driving will be negligible, even if the Prius gets more than double the fuel economy.
Until we are taxed on carbon emissions here in the US, there is no real incentive for us to get away from big inefficient cars.
But in the end, we got a slightly used MB E500 4-Matic for $22k. It’s much more comfortable, cheaper
The base MSRP of a ’10 Prius is $22K as well.
Until we are taxed on carbon emissions here in the US, there is no real incentive for us to get away from big inefficient cars.
Or until we let the oil markets go nuts again when the global economy bounces back and we’re paying $4-5 per gallon straight to the likes of Saudi again.
When I had Prius, I put a set of low profile 17″ Scion wheels on it. Did wonders for the handling…
Well when gas goes past $15 a gallon by 2018 I’ll drive an electric car with NiMH batteries since it will be off patent and those batteries nearly last forever if not fully discharged….
Prius seems just a car for the interim as a way to lower pollution. However pollution from 15 cargo ships = 750 million cars, not exactly going to make a dent in reality lowering car pollution. Thus it’s all image. Mileage is good but as others point out a 4 cylinder yaris is 10-15K cheaper and unless gas goes to 500 a barrel, a prius isn’t saving money in the mileage department compared to other small cars.
I’m more interested in a hydraulic hybrid for a pickup or full-size sedan, only some $400-500 for the hybrid parts, not 2-4K, no transmission needed and 30-40% improvement in mileage, no batteries necessary. Just nitrogen tanks taking up trunk space…
A downside of a Prius, car insurance is supposedly higher than other small cars.
The base MSRP of a ‘10 Prius is $22K as well.
But the Prius doesn’t come with leather seats, navigation, heated seats, Xenon headlamps, AWD, 300+hp, 339 lb-ft of torque, adaptive cruise control (distronic), panorama sunroof, and of course the brand at that price.
A maxed out Prius is $32,520, though in this market I’m sure they are discounted. That price is still over $10k more than the E and IMO still not as nice.
Even if gas price doubled the $10k price difference would take 15 years to recover.
If I understand the Prius fans correctly, they are indicating that there is an intangible benefit to saving fuel beyond the economic aspect of it.
In other words, a Prius may never “pay for itself” but these people are happy to pay more now to consume less fossil fuel later, in the same way that some people pay more for “fair traded coffee” because they like the idea of their money going to benefit certain individuals or groups.
And, for those people, that intangible benefit of “consuming less” is as real and valuable as the speed/power benefits of a Porsche or Pontiac G8.
Is that about right?
I test drove a Prius and found it to be less enjoyable to drive than a rental Cobalt. Maybe Toyota could make a “Prius Sport” model where they put a little effort into the feel of the electric power steering and suspension. I understand that it’s a driving appliance, but most driving appliances come with less automotive novacaine.
I did like the torque of the Prius electric motor and the ability to move forward in a traffic jam using electric power only.
I also test drove a Jetta TDI and a Civic. The Jetta TDI would be my first choice in the fuel economy vs. driving experience tradeoff. Black plastic seats were unacceptable, but otherwise it was ok. The Civic was a step down in interior materials, but I guess it was ok for its price. The Cobalt was an additional big step down in interior quality, but it would be more enjoyable than riding the bus.
The only reason to even begin to consider a hybrid is the unique drivetrain and fuel economy, and even then, depending on the number of miles driven, it isn’t the most economical choice.
A base Prius at 22K vs. a Ford Focus, Honda Civic, or Mazda3 is still at a minimum $4K more, which buys a lot of gas. Yes, technically the Prius is a midsize, but that is bullshit. Compare the dimensions of the Prius to the cars mentioned, and it comes to within a fraction of an inch in all measurements, both exterior and interior room. The only thing the Prius has going for it over the others is a little more cargo capacity. The Prius is a midsize in the same way the Routan is German engineered – i.e. entirely through marketing.
Not all hybrids are necessarily bad, in fact, the Ford Fusion Hybrid, and the Lexus LS600hl are both pretty damn good cars in their own right. The Prius doesn’t suck because its a hybrid, it sucks because the seats are uncomfortable, the driving dynamics could have been made better easily but weren’t, the gauges and displays are weird for no good reason, and it isn’t a superior economic choice for most people vs. similar sized and all around better to drive cars unless you drive at least 20K miles per year.
Come on, people. Cars are tools. You take them out of the toolbox, use em, and put em back in. What’s the point of criticizing somebody who wants to use a more slender hammer? I, among people I know, am the number one car bore. I can talk for hours about the relative merits of various headlight designs. Give me a chance and I’ll try to convert you to the Church of Citroen. But I see absolutely no sense in dissing somebody’s choice of wheels — unless there are unpaid externalities, as in the case of SUVs. I agree with Bunter, all that cheap talk about Prius owners being smug, it just sounds insecure.
Good article, Luke. But you should have added a blurb to explode the two battery myths; the famous “batteries in the landfill” verse and the “expensive battery replacement costs” chorus.
Here’s this:
gamper :
Really, a good car for people who dont like cars.
Come on, not fair. I drive a Prius AND I like cars, particularly fast ones with manual transmissions. So do a lot of others.
Stop putting all of us in your pigeonhole, can’t you see we don’t fit?
darkwing :
Show of hands — who actually *gets* 50 mpg in a Prius? (Particularly in primarily highway driving, in which a hybrid is just a waste of mass.) My impression was that, in real-world driving, the difference is negligible.
Your impression is wrong. I got 50 MPG a few times after I had bought my car. Once, I got 54 MPG and went nearly 600 miles before I filled up just out of nervousness.
Since then, two things happened: More ethanol in the fuel (almost all fuel has it now, wheras it was much easier to find gasoline sans corn in 2004 when my car was new), and I bought bad tires. I’ll go back to the Michelin Hydroedges when it’s time to replace these tires.
Bunter1 :
I’m not a Prius owner, nor likely to be.
However I have observed that while it’s detractors try to paint the owners as being predominantly “green freaks” trying to get some street cred for their cause the only ones I ever meet, in TTAC or real life, seem to be like Luke42.
Thank you. I’m really getting sick of baseless stereotypes; first the Miata/gay thing, and now the Prius/green thing. I think I’ll go fire up my charcoal grill and cook a monster sized steak made from corn-fed stock. With any luck, I’ll open up a small ozone hole of my own right over my house. That’ll show ’em!
I feel like we’re re-hashing the same arguments over and over. For once I agree with Baruth.
Actually, the fancy hybrid components of the Prius remains the most important part of the what makes the Prius marketable and desirable. From a pragmatic standpoint it doesn’t do very much. But from a customer demand viewpoint it contributes greatly.
I won’t go into some long winded explanation about potential energy, but I think we all agree that a non-plugin-hybrid is really just another means at which to convert the energy stored in the gas tank into a means to travel some distance.
As a result, the Prius actually does hundreds of very small things well at extracting more useful driving distance out of the same volume of gasoline when compared to a “conventional car.” But very few customers want to pay a stiff premium for the little small things that Toyota did on the Prius.
Customers could have purchased an extremely fuel efficient and versatile car in the Honda Civic HX. These cars were stripped out Civics with some interesting changes to make them fuel efficient versus the regular DX model Civic. Customers were in effect paying more to use less gas… but with no tangible “wow” factor in technology. Thus, the HX bombed.
Customers don’t pay much extra for low rolling resistance tires, lightweight valve springs, lightweight seats, LED brake lights, and low-resistance power steering pumps. But the Prius is a marvel in itself at how efficient that booger really is. If you don’t believe me, find a guy that is willing to take his conventional Prius and strip out every bit of dual-mode/electric-motor-mode tech and just run it as a regular car with all that extra weight removed.
You’ll find the Prius does amazingly well. Even better than the HX Civic and better than most cars on the road today (it’ll still do worse in the city than a regular Prius).
Basically the only way the Prius eeks out a benefit above and beyond mere lightweight and efficient parts is with that regenerative braking system. By capturing some heat to store as energy to be used later, it makes the original gasoline that much more efficient at moving you around.
And people will pay for electronic wizz-do-dads-and a hybrid badge. So from a business standpoint the Hybrid component is the most important feature.
PS. I ride a bike to work as well.
If I understand the Prius fans correctly, they are indicating that there is an intangible benefit to saving fuel beyond the economic aspect of it.
In other words, a Prius may never “pay for itself” but these people are happy to pay more now to consume less fossil fuel later, in the same way that some people pay more for “fair traded coffee” because they like the idea of their money going to benefit certain individuals or groups.
And, for those people, that intangible benefit of “consuming less” is as real and valuable as the speed/power benefits of a Porsche or Pontiac G8.
Is that about right?
No, you don’t understand it correctly and it is not right.
1) A hybrid powertrain pays for itself. To say so otherwise is to perpetuate a baseless myth. The payback period may not be two weeks, but neither are most investments. Plus, that’s a silly framework to begin with, as I would like to know of ANY option on a vehicle (other than a hybrid powertrain) which “pays for itself.”
2) To then link it to things like fair trade coffee and use words like “intangible,” you are purposely leading yourself to your preconception that liberals are touchy-feely people who shouldn’t be trusted with money as they are not rational (like, for example, a buyer of a Lotus Elise /snark).
3) There are any number of other tangible benefits, if they need to be justified at all – very low tailpipe emissions of criteria toxins, very low CO2 emissions, greener production techniques in the manufacture and materials, HOV lane access, favorable or reduced fee parking, less stopping at gas stations (because time is money and some may prefer not to inhale gas fumes that much); or simply having a very spacious, safe, midsize, reliable vehicle with tons of legroom, futuristic gadgetry, and a look that is futuristic as well. In sum, it’s not just about the fuel economy. Heck – maybe people want the EV mode so they can slip away quietly at night to go visit their regular hooker.
If people just traffic in the tired old stereotypes and liberal bashing by proxy, then of course one’s attitude towards it will be predictable.
I can think of 10 dozen vehicles I wouldn’t care to own, and Prius is probably one of them, but that’s just my personal situation. I certainly don’t go out of my way to continually knock down a Mazda5 or a Kia Sedona just because they don’t appeal to me. How odd that so many people put so much time and energy into bashing one specific make and model of vehicle.
@ Tummy
So, to summarize, used cars are cheaper than new cars. Thanks for the update.
An ’05 MB E500 4-Matic goes for around $22K. I’ll assume that’s the MY you have.
I know that you don’t drive much, but it’s normal for people to clock 15K miles per year on a car that new. Edmunds estimates the 5 year ownership cost of it to be $53,706.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2005/mercedesbenz/eclass/100444952/cto.html
Compare that to a new, warrantied ’09 Prius which has a TMV of just over $22K. Five year ownership cost is $33,148 – or over $20,000 less than the Benz.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/toyota/prius/101042875/cto.html
Clearly if you drive fewer miles, that equation changes somewhat – less gas consumption difference, less use-based depreciation and wear and tear, etc.
But you’re not going to get any insurance benefit (or very little) by driving less, and you’ll eat time-based depreciation even if you don’t drive the car one inch.
So purchase price doesn’t tell the whole story, does it?
However pollution from 15 cargo ships = 750 million cars
That’s only regarding sulphur oxide pollution. It’s a bad thing, but it’s not on the top of anyone’s list for two reasons: a) it’s not a greenhouse gas, and b) acid rain was a big deal 20-30 years ago but we got together and got sulphur pollution under control (except for the shipping industry, obviously). It’s one reason why diesel was more restricted in the US (esp. CA) than in Europe; American diesel supplies have higher sulphur concentrations and were deemed unacceptable.
It’s pathetic that an article came out saying (correctly) that 15 ships emit as much sulphur oxides as 750 million cars, and a number of people have tried to pass it off as 15 ships emitting more pollution than 750 million cars.
Tummy: Priuses can be bought slightly used, too. But you make a good point about how much you drive being an important factor in car selection. I wouldn’t have purchased a small and noisy Miata if I had to drive 20,000 miles a year.
long126mike: A gasoline Jetta (using premium) gets 25 mpg.
Why would you use premium in a Jetta?
A downside of a Prius, car insurance is supposedly higher than other small cars.
Except for the facts that insurance is lower and that it’s a midsize car, you are correct.
A good write up on the Prius. I’d still lean towards getting MINI Cooper for the hoonage factor.
The base model MINI is 5 grand more than the Yaris basis model, but you get a much better build, a 6 speed manual, and better road manners.
You mention getting 50 mpg for a $600 mile stretch of highway. A MINI might pull 40 on that same stretch. With a light right foot, a MINI should have no difficulty attaining 36 or 37 mpg at legal highway speeds.
The downside: It’s even smaller than the Yaris and definitely more so than the Prius. The MINI’s control layout is quirky to say the least. The car is so small that you will feel ‘all’ of road when driving a MINI. It’s also a bit buzzy, but I’ll take buzzy with a 6 speed manual transmission over drive by wire sailing with periods silence.
A MINI fills a niche – environmentally friendly, but still fun to drive
Why would you use premium in a Jetta?
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=25261
Turbos use premium fuel.
Why would you use premium in a Jetta?
The Jetta “GLI” with the 2.0T gets 25MPG combined and takes premium fuel.
The vast majority of Jettas sold in the United States use the 2.5L I5 engine, which uses regular fuel and gets 23MPG combined.
I have a hard time calling a Prius an appliance as to me an appliance is something like a Camry of a Malibu – something that is conventional in every way. Something like Prius is as much of an engineering tour de force as a Enzo or a Veyron. But, in Toyota’s case instead of all the resources being dedicated to going fast – carbon fiber body, reinforced carbon carbon brakes, etc. the engineering resources went into making that car as fuel efficient as possible – regenerative braking, electric water pump, Cd of 0.25 etc.
I mean take this for exampe – “The 1.8-liter Prius engine is the first Toyota power plant that requires no belts under the hood for better fuel economy and less potential maintenance.”
Better fuel economy and less maintenance is a beautiful thing.
The Prius smugness is just the same typical crap as every other group.
Vette owners are middle-aged douchebags with balding patches Mustang owners could care less about actual driving and just like to show off. BMW drivers are douchebags period. SUV drivers are just guys who aren’t enough man to handle driving a minivan…
Whatever.
The Prius is a nice car, with tires that don’t give it great snow traction, it gets good mileage without needing to find a truck stop gas station for diesel, it has huge amounts of headroom.
I’d never buy one, but my dad who could care less about cars would love one except for the whole snow traction thing.
Not 50M MG, but with my 2009 Jetta DSG sedan I am averaging 39.7 MPG overall and 44 to 48 MPG on the highway and loving every minute of driving it. I have just over 4,000 miles on it and I understand that the mileage is likely to improve until it is semi-broken in, at 10,000 to 15,0000 miles, and then will level off.
I understand that the EPA estimates tend to underestimate mileage for diesels and for turbos and, as the TDI is both it does better than the EPA estimate.
As to “fun” I find the precision of the TDI’s steering and the way it tracks around corners wonderful and “fun”, even though I tend, now-a-days, to stay close to the speed limit. :)
I have compassion for those who don’t know what it is to have “fun” driving, as I do for someone who is tone deaf and can’t appreciate music.
As much as I agree with Luke42, the Prius drive-train was conceived with ONE goal in mind within Toyota; recover wasted braking energy and aide the highly wasteful ICE acceleration phase.
The fact they achieved that goal in a profitable, marketable and EFFECTIVE package is tribute to those product guys at Toyota. As a one-time Process Control Engineer myself, it’s the ultimate expression of the art to pull all the compromises they had to make together.
On top of that, aside from some insecure ignorants, Toyota have made it a completely acceptable solution with the general public. Market research suggests there is an enormous understanding with the buying public that they should not waste energy and that hybrid’s help.
The Toyota Hybrid implementation is elegant and it’s ready to roll into every vehicle they make, Yaris to Land Cruiser to Hino, the moment oil hits $75/barrel. They’ll be murdering the competition any minute……
Suck it up haters….
Show of hands — who actually *gets* 50 mpg in a Prius?
I’ve done it. It’s not hard to do – even at the speed limit and higher.
A MINI might pull 40 on that same stretch. With a light right foot, a MINI should have no difficulty attaining 36 or 37 mpg at legal highway speeds.
That’s true, I’ve done that in a MINI. The problem comes when the MINI and the 6-speed have to deal with several miles of stop and go traffic. That’s when the Prius sets itself apart from the non-hybrids. A 38 mpg MINI will drop to 19 to 23mpg if I remember correctly. Probably the same with a Fit or Yaris. A MINI D with a start/stop feature on the engine might be a viable alternative.
Come on, people. Cars are tools. You take them out of the toolbox, use em, and put em back in. What’s the point of criticizing somebody who wants to use a more slender hammer?
Thank you! Someone finally said it. I love my German cars on the back roads of New Hampshire. I love cars and driving. When the weekday rolls around along with the wonderful 7 mile stretch of stop and go traffic I drive every day (SB 128/95 in Boston between Rt. 3 and Winter St.) it’s time to break out the Prius. I’m not destroying my other cars in that environment.
Back in late 2003 I bought a Toyota Echo, 4 door with 5 speed stick. 125K miles later I am still getting a minimum of 33mpg mixed driving, best I got was 45mpg on the highway at 75mph. This compares favorably with the Prius, considering it was $12K out the door vs the $24K or so the dealers were getting for the Prius.
I got to save $12K and got near-equivalent mpg, but I was not part of the cool kids and never had a college girl offer to thank me in a special way for saving the planet.
Slumba,
33 /= 50.
Indeed 50 is 51.5% bigger than 33. A Prius get’s 50% better combined milage than an Echo despite being much bigger, faster and safer.
If people just traffic in the tired old stereotypes and liberal bashing by proxy, then of course one’s attitude towards it will be predictable.
Pot, meet kettle. You are both black.
People who do not like the Prius are not liberal bashers.
You do realize you just put people in a pigeonhole which you tell other people not to do, right?
got near-equivalent mpg
“getting a minimum of 33mpg”
Prius = 50 mpg
“Near equivalent”? I guess that means 100 hp and 150 hp are near equivalent as well.
Jack Baruth
I agree.
SherbornSean:
I agree.
I am getting tired of having my chain pulled by this Prius baiting.
If you want to buy the dammned Prius…get it.
If you want to ride a bike, do it.
Just stop all this Prius car/not a car crap because nobody wins.
Prius drivers feel good when they drive.
I feel even better driving past them in my MKS or the Mazda6
I wanna yell THANKS to them for leaving extra fuel for me.
Bless them.
People who do not like the Prius are not liberal bashers.
No, not at all. You’re very right. How could anyone ever get that impression? There’s absolutely no evidence to support that position. How terribly bigoted of them to think such things. They are all black kettles, black pots, and black labs.
Shame on them all. I demand a dozen prostrations from them.
Show of hands — who actually *gets* 50 mpg in a Prius?
Real-world databases all gravitate towards an average of 46-48 mpg for the gen 2 Prius. The new Prius bumps the EPA estimate from 45 up to 50 mpg, so 50 mpg is an unexceptional number for that car.
The new Insight can pull that rather easily as well.
I wanna yell THANKS to them for leaving extra fuel for me. Bless them.
Wow – someone gets it. Good to see.
The less people use fuel, the cheaper it is. Gearheads should rejoice when someone wants to lower demand for gasoline.
For those who couldn’t quite figure out that I said a “minimum” of 33mpg, meaning that was a worst-case scenario for my driving, here is some simple math:
Echo, worst case 33mpg, over 125K miles: gas used about 3800 gallons
Prius, best-case 50mpg over 125K miles: gas used 2500 gallons
Even assuming $4/gallon gas (average over the past 5 years has been much lower), the difference is only 1300 * 4 = $5200 in gas savings as against the extra $12K in purchase price.
Plus the warranty on the more expensive components of the Prius runs out by 100K miles – the Echo will have far lower repair costs if I decide to keep running it.
Meanwhile Prius owners will at some point have to shell out thousands to replace the battery pack.
It is up to each person whether to spend the extra money; I guess my point was that there are plenty of other vehicles out there that can deliver real-world economy without the extra pieces of hybrid technology.
@ slumba
You’re only talking about the entry cost, not the total cost of ownership including exit/change-over costs.
I don’t have handy figures, but our company expects the 4x Camry Hybrids we have in Chicago to perform better at resale time than any other vehicle in the fleet, and at not much more entry cost over the 4-cyl, PLUS we have had huge fuel savings all along the way. Those cars all miles ahead on operating costs/services compared to the 10x VW Golf TDi we have in Frankfurt and London too.
You might see a car purchase with fuel cost as the ONLY ownership cost, but that is not how the majority of car buyers operate vehicles. Now that people are thinking more about depreciation we’re seeing (thankfully) an exit from fuel thirsty vehicles, or at least they’re depreciating faster.
Nor do the majority pay cash, but they lease…..so your $12k saving argument is not occurring on “day one”.
When oil is $100/barrel again shortly, Prius will command very good prices as they did before. They’re holding up pretty well even now compared to non-hybrids.
Also, Toyota tell owners to expect the battery pack to last the lifetime of the car. It was warranted for at least 7 years in Australia. I’m not sure in other locales – Japan get’s 10 years I believe. There are very few reports of battery problems.
2005 Echo, true cost to own, 5 year period – $24,482
2005 Prius, true cost to own, 5 year period – $27,106
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2005/toyota/echo/100397165/cto.html
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2005/toyota/prius/100454051/cto.html
So, to save a whopping $1.44 per day, you get to drive stick instead of automatic, lose 3.4 inches of legroom in the back, 2.5 cubic feet of luggage space (and even more cargo space). You also get to have no A/C or automatic climate control system, no ABS, no power windows, no trip computer, no intermittent wipers, no traction control, no cruise control, no rear defogger (!), no power steering, no power mirrors, no remote power door locks, no CD player, no heated exterior mirrors, no intermittent rear wiper, no steering wheel audio controls, no clock, no tire pressure monitoring system, and no alloy wheels (all of which are standard on the Prius and not on the Echo).
To top that off, you get to buy 943 extra gallons of gasoline for the car over its lifetime (and that’s using the Echo at 39 mpg and the Prius at 48 mpg), which creates 9 extra tons of CO2, and requires about 100 extra trips to the gas station. The weight of that extra gasoline is 3 times the weight of your car.
As a bonus, you get to put out 6-10 times more smog-forming and other toxic emissions per mile.
You also get to miss out on insurance discounts, preferential and/or free parking, and HOV access as a single occupant vehicle.
You may also wish to note in those true cost to own links, you’ll see that by the 5th year, the total cost of ownership for the year for the Prius is lower than that of the Echo, and that trajectory will continue with each successive year. And that’s a model that assumes gas to be $2.50 per gallon.
To each his own, I guess. You sure showed those college cool kids.
PS – batteries on a Prius have warranties that last almost the life of the vehicle, and battery failure is about as likely as you getting hit by lightning.
To put tigeraid’s South Park reference (about hybrid drivers being smug) into context, I used to work for two different universities. At both of them, the Presidents decided to buy hybrids. Both made HUGE speaking points when in meetings and work community gatherings how they are progressive that they are the only two presidents in the region to drive hybrid vehicles. They also tried to relate their progressiveness to the school’s progressiveness (which both schools weren’t exactly progressive)
But what they didn’t say is what hybrids they purchased (the Escape and the RX400h). By downgrading to a smaller car (whether it be a hybrid, TDI, or just efficient), I would view THAT as their idea of change. Neither of them needed the space of the vehicles, but it was for them to feel good and talk about themselves driving hybrids. And honestly, my STI gets better milage than the RX400h.
I don’t really care for hybrids personally because it’s not my type of car FOR ME. But the thing that irritated me the most about those situations is that they made it a talking piece for them having large hybrid vehicles, when a normal efficient (or even a more efficient hybrid) would have probably made more sense. I ride a Kawasaki Ninja 250 in the spring-early fall months (over 6000 miles over the span) for the 60-70 MPG efficiency and for the cheap insurance (then just garage the car) because all I need is to get from point A to point B!
In other words, don’t let the smugness get to you! A hybrid is just a different style of car, I think the technology is cool but it’s not what I’M LOOKING for.
/end long-winded rant
As for the Jetta, it gets 33. How 33 can be “better” than 50 is a math class I apparently neglected to take
Not to mention that diesel costs 20-25% more than unleaded regular.
@ quiksilver180
OK, so some people like to wear things on their sleeves. Some people like to pray on street corners, too, as the proverb goes. That doesn’t make all Christians smug, does it?
There’s always going to be people who look to put on cheap and easy window-dressing for some form of communicating a message. My gosh, the automobile is probably the epitomal object for this. Veblen covered all this a long time ago.
The problem with the “smug” label is that it hinges on taking anecdotes and then turning them into stereotypes. There is a political objective involved with that – the person aping that term is himself trying to communicate a message that’s derogatory and dismissive, to try and portray someone who chooses that specific vehicle as being of low character and a self-affected poser. The point of that is to extend that to all people who have concern for the natural environment and to liberals in general by extension.
Of course one can locate examples of such people, but that doesn’t naturally lead to a generalization of that being true.
If South Park is now our arbiter of how to characterize people, I guess we can all safely assume that all rural working class people are all bigoted people who are closeted homosexuals, per their portrayal of them that way in the “gooback” episode. We can also assume all rappers are murderous thugs and all vegans commit bestiality, as was portrayed in their “douche and turd” episode.
Isn’t that clever how that works?
Not to mention that diesel costs 20-25% more than unleaded regular.
Not at the moment, it doesn’t. Diesel’s about 12 cents cheaper right now.
But you’re right, there was a big price gap up until recently, particularly when they first did the switchover to ULSD.
Can people PLEASE stop comparing a stripper Yaris and a stripper Prius? They are in completely difficult classes. I’m not one who thinks that hybrids alone are a panacaea, but the Prius has plenty going for it, even aside from its mileage.
The Prius is larger inside. The base Yaris is a 3-door hatchback. Its interior volume is 47 cubic feet in the front, 37 in the rear, and 9.3 under the hatch. The Prius is a 5-door hatchback. It has 52 cubic feet of space in front, 42 in the rear, and 21.6 cubic feet under the hatch. The Prius’s fuel tank is also 0.8 gallons larger, extending its range.
Now let’s compare standard equipment on base models.
The base ’09 Yaris starts with: air conditioning, tilt steering wheel, 6-way driver’s seat, ABS, and 14” steel wheels.
The base ’10 Prius has that, plus: traction control, stability control, automatic climate control, tilt/telescoping steering wheel with radio controls, cruise control, heated power mirrors, power windows, power door locks, remote keyless entry/start, AM/FM radio, CD player, trip computer, auto-on/off headlights, variable-intermittent wipers, theft-deterrent system, and 15” alloy wheels.
Finally, gearheads: the Yaris engine produces 106 horsepower. The ’10 Prius produces 134 horsepower combined. That’s a substantial gap, even though the Prius is heavier.
Comparing a Prius to a Yaris is a us exercise. Fuel economy can be a criterion for a purchase, but it’s almost never the sole factor. The Prius can best be compared to a Corolla or a Camry, as its volume fits somewhere between the two, but the Prius has more standard equipment than either.
Some commentators have said that the Prius is a poor all-around choice for vehicle, based on its dead steering, soft suspension, and lackluster acceleration. Guess what? Most people who buy a Prius, or any other compact or midsize vehicle, don’t care about those features (or if they do, they fall much further down the list of needed traits). They care about cupholders, air conditioning, stereo systems, reliability, and economy.
The bottom line? The Prius is a car that is as spacious as a compact sedan, but with more cargo volume, and a standard features list that matches the upper trims of most compact models. On top of that, it has rather more power than its previous iteration, so its acceleration should be pretty close to that of the rest of the compact class. It’s a long-term payoff if the only advantage is its superior mileage, but it also has the features that mark it as being several cuts above the penalty-box of econocars. It’s not a driving enthusiast’s car (if that implies a taut-handling car with superb acceleration and braking), but for the vast majority of people who buy cars, it’s a pretty good package, overall.
@ carsinamerica
Can people PLEASE stop comparing a stripper Yaris and a stripper Prius?
Come now – what fun would that be? It’s imperative that one point out that the red fruit from Washington is in all ways superior to the orange fruit from Florida.
Are you actually expecting people to use objectivity and fairness when there’s so many axes that need grinding? Gotta bring a gun to the knife fight, you know?
If you need any more mixed metaphors, I’ll be around.
@ long126mike :
please tell me you’re constructing an elaborate, ironic self-reflexive joke…
@ jconli1
The punchline comes after I’m gone.
“Nobody buys a porsche for fuel savings”
My Porsche gets better milage than my other car…just sayin’.
Eh, if the HSD concept had been launched by GM, people would be lauding its various implementations, whether in a Prius, or other platform. The Volt Craze would have been a Prius Craze!
Why does the Prius sell, when other hybrids don’t do as well? Because it’s got a completely silent start. Magic.
And then there’s pull in the notion that you recover energy, and use available energy more efficiently. Gives people something to talk about, compared to boring regular cars.
Love it or leave it.
One continuous theme in here is that the Prius detractors keep comparing a mid-size car with compacts and subcompacts.
Obviously Accord owners are idiots to pay more money to get less mpg than if they got a Fit (which is more fun to drive by most accounts).
Insert non-equivalent fruit analogy here.
ZoomZoom-your welcome, the stereotype thing is simply sad. Frankly, I’ve yet to meet a hyubrid owner that was a green freak. I no they exist but I suspect they are a tiny portion of the group.
Bunter
long126mike, “2002 Jetta TDI with an automatic (remember, Chuck – apples and apples) is rated at… 33 mpg. Just like the 2009 Jetta TDI, whose numbers I gave. A gasoline Jetta (using premium) gets 25 mpg.
YMMV.”
And what does the manual transmission equipped Prius get for mileage? Your “apples to apples” comparison is slightly disingenuous based on the fact that a manual isn’t an option in the Prius. If we’re measuring fuel economy, comparing most efficient Prius package (of which there is only one) to the most efficient Jetta/Golf package (the manual transmission) is valid.
If we really want to compare apples to apples, lets compare the 2003 Jetta TDI with a manual transmission (remember, the most fuel efficient package) is rated at a realistic 42 City /49 Highway (we have one and can do this all day long) to the 2003 Prius with CVT (the only choice you have) at 52 City /45 Highway (never had one, but I will take this at face value). Much closer.
I wonder how strong EMFs (electro-magnetic fields) hybrids generate. It would be nice if a Prius owner could get a Gauss meter and measure them in various areas of the car’s cabin.
Michael, I’m pretty certain that all of the automobile manufacturers have looked into this without fail, especially considering the litigous society that America and Germany are (especially America).
Put another way, my fluorescent tubes in the house don’t light up by themselves when the Prius pulls into the garage.
You need to go near a high voltage, tall power line to have that happen, eh?
carsinamerica: “The Prius can best be compared to a Corolla or a Camry,”It always seemed to me that the closest non-hybrid comparison with the Prius was the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe. It would seem particularly apt now that the 2010 Prius gets a 1.8L engine, identical (in size, anyway) to the base Matrix.
I drive a 91 Dodge Dakota that gets 20mpg or better. I saved it on its way to the junkyard. It’s not pretty, but it’s paid for, is cheap to maintain and repair, and get’s good gas mileage (I won’t even mention the great utility).
I purchased it for $500.00 with very little money in repairs (I do most myself) becasue parts are cheap and repairs are simple. My only real expense is gas and insurance and I only drive 7 miles each way to work.
The best part? I RECYCLED!!! I am not ashamed to drive and maintain and older car that most people are too afraid to drive either becasue they are afraid of mechanical problems or are too up their own asses to drive something sol old and crappy looking.
I’ve had this old truck six years and she still runs strong! That’s six years of no car payment, no NEW car built for me, no new raw materials conusmed for the making of a new car that I don’t need.
I’ll keep on recycling your “old junk” as long as you keep consuming “new junk” at your expense. Not mine…
The Prius is a fine car, and I have no objections to it. I’d glad that in America anyone who wants to drive one has an opportunity to do it. I’ve rented one and it was fine for my use.
Additionally, I have no objection to the tax perks and HOV lane/single driver perk either. OK by me.
What I object to are the people who want to force me to drive one.
Further, I never understand the logic of people who want me to use new technological advances to save fuel because we’re going to run out after I’m dead…. but don’t believe that there will be technological advances in the future to take care of that generation’s problems.
Then, of course, I’m not a big believer in Global
Warming either. CO2? OK but what about India and China? They’re putting out much more CO2 and pollution than the United States, and unless you’re willing to stop the millions from cooking their food over dung fires, and force modern technologies on THEM, the drops-in-the-bucket reductions that we make by using Hybrids are meaningless. Then, there are the pollution controls for ocean-going ships that was mentioned above.
http://knowledge.allianz.com/en/news/viewdetail/asia_brown_cloud.html
So don’t tell me that I’m saving the environment by driving a Hybrid, and don’t tell me I’m saving enough fuel to make a difference for future generations, and don’t tell them that there’s any significant economic savings by driving a Hybrid.
If you want to drive one, great. But, shut up and drive.
A base Prius at 22K vs. a Ford Focus, Honda Civic, or Mazda3 is still at a minimum $4K more, which buys a lot of gas. Yes, technically the Prius is a midsize, but that is bullshit. Compare the dimensions of the Prius to the cars mentioned, and it comes to within a fraction of an inch in all measurements, both exterior and interior room
Technically, the Prius is much bigger inside than those vehicles; and the exterior dimensions are irrelevant (why on earth would you give somebody credit for using up extra space on the outside without giving you extra space on the inside?)
Using just the Focus; there’s a couple of measurements here that are quite obviously not just a fraction of an inch different:
Prius:
–
Internal dimensions: front headroom (inches): 39.1, rear headroom (inches): 37.1, front hip room (inches): 51, rear hip room (inches): 51.6, front leg room (inches): 41.9, rear leg room (inches): 38.6, front shoulder room (inches): 55.3, rear shoulder room (inches): 53 and interior volume (cu ft): 96.2
Focus:
–
Internal dimensions: front headroom (inches): 39.2, rear headroom (inches): 38.3, front hip room (inches): 50.4, rear hip room (inches): 50.9, front leg room (inches): 41.7, rear leg room (inches): 36.1, front shoulder room (inches): 53.4, rear shoulder room (inches): 53.6 and interior volume (cu ft): 93.4
@ Lokkii
Your argument is a variation on “my actions are my actions and effect no-one else” crap, except of course, then don’t just effect you.
If you waste a scarce resource, we all pay, maybe not tomorrow, as you so casually dismiss because you’ll be dead, but certainly soon enough.
What I object to are the people who want to force me to drive one.
No-one is going to FORCE you to drive one. Where the hell does that come from? What many would like some recognition of, is that we can’t just keep wasting energy, China, India, USA, dung-burner’s alike. It’s way past time people got it through their thick heads.
I’ve put over 75,000 miles in my two Prius cars and have read so many people dissing the car and so much misinformation over the years, that it pretty well bores me. But this is a good piece, even if some of the old sillyness comes up in some of the comments.
My gas mileage has dropped since I also cannot get any real 100% gasoline except premium – and I continually “do the math” and work out whether it’s going to be cheaper to get 10% ethanol “regular” and have the MPG drop, or pay extra for real gas, despite now being forced to pay 20 cents more a gallon because it is premium (which the Prius does not need).
I’m going to do a 9 tankful test. 3 tankfulls on Premium 100% gasoline; 3 tankfulls on Shell V-Power regular E10; and then 3 tankfulls on Marathon regular E10 with STP. It’ll take quite awhile since the car doesn’t use a lot of fuel…
I can tell you that in the winter time, my Prius went from 44 to about 33 mpg when I temporarily could not locate any 100% gasoline and was forced to use E10; all else being equal.
The other down-side of a Prius is “fix-able” to some extent; living in northern Michigan, and having had snow for 5 FREAKING MONTHS this year, I can tell you that having a second set of wheels and proper snow tires 90% fixes the winter driving problem.
Overall, I like my Prius and coincidentally, went to just eyeball the 2010 cars at the dealer this morning after dropping Mrs. off (yeah, we carpool in a Prius and no, we aren’t liberals, Democrats nor even RINOs or Republicans of any sort).
I’ve pretty well decided that if the summer time MPG plummets on E10 as much as it did in the winter, then once I cannot get 100% gasoline of any description, I will sell the car and consider getting a 2011 Hyundai Sonata hybrid once it comes out. Hyundai cars don’t seem to be as badly affected by E10 (our 2009 Sonata only losing about 6% MPG on E10 vs. 100% gasoline).
The computer in my 2008 Prius is showing 48.5 mpg’s over the past 100 miles as of right now, after simply commuting 17 miles to & from work for a few days, as well as running the Newfoundland dogs to the lake, taking them to the park for a walk, etc.
Currently I’m using 100% gasoline after having to put in 1/2 tank of E10 and noticed that I was able to drive 97 miles before the gas gage moved off of “full” (as opposed to it usually being between 50 and 75 miles before it moves off of “full” when running E10).
Prius owners do love to point out that their car offers “midsize space” in a “compact car”. As the Focus v. Prius interior numbers show, there’s about 3 cubic feet difference between the two.
What the Prius does have it a hatchback, which greatly increases its cargo space so long as you’re willing to use the side mirrors.
The “wondrous space” of the Prius was offered in 1980 by the now-reviled General Motors, in the five-door Citation.
Just sayin’.
Customers could have purchased an extremely fuel efficient and versatile car in the Honda Civic HX. These cars were stripped out Civics with some interesting changes to make them fuel efficient versus the regular DX model Civic. Customers were in effect paying more to use less gas… but with no tangible “wow” factor in technology. Thus, the HX bombed.
The HX bombed because:
a) it takes hours to fill the tank at home
b) CNG filling stations that can do the job quiker are thinner on the ground than diesel
c) it has about as much trunk space as a Solstice
d) it costs as much as the Civic Hybrid
e) it is unrelentingly slow. As in “prepare to get dusted by a Smart CDI” slow.
I like CNG and the Civic, but this car really did suck.
Luke – an admirable defense of hybrids, however, the A2B economy car story just doesn’t ad up given today’s gas prices. The purchase cost of a hybrid is so much higher than other economy cars, such as the Fit and Corolla, that it doesn’t make financial sense to buy it.
So the assumption by most people is to assume that there is a motivation other than the environment that is driving the sale of these cars. I guess this is where the tree-hugger image comes in.
I found the 2008-9 Prius DANGEROUSLY SLOW. On long slight upgrades on highways it would just peter out.
I thought that my decision to purchase one would rest with how much of a fun factor I’d be giving up versus my BMW.
I decided to not get one because I feel it is dangerous. There are times when you need passing power or just need the power to get up a long hill.
Art
@PeteMoran :
Pete – What you’re saying is that if we all throw a pebble in the ocean (while singing Kumbaya, my Gaia)we can fill up the ocean. Yeah, right.
If you waste a scarce resource, we all pay, maybe not tomorrow, as you so casually dismiss because you’ll be dead, but certainly soon enough.
Yup, there will never be any technological innovations ever again. Our cities will be hopelessly polluted with horse shit, unless we all start walking to work instead of riding horses! We’re going to run out of whale oil for lamps – oh wait! What’s this black stuff in the ground?
No-one is going to FORCE you to drive one. Where the hell does that come from?
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/09/cbo-puts-hefty-price-tag-on-emissions-plan/
“When the House Energy and Commerce Committee approved a climate bill last month to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions, Republicans – and a few Democrats – predicted that it would impose huge costs on the American economy.
According to the Congressional Budget Office, they were right.
American Petroleum Institute President Jack Gerard said the projected costs of the emissions allowances will mean increases of as much as 77 cents a gallon for gasoline, and diesel fuel increases of 88 cents per gallon. ”
http://www.philly.com/philly/classifieds/cars/20090607_How_you_can_increase_fuel_consumption.html
“Government: The administration’s proposal to raise the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) to 39 m.p.g. for cars and 30 for trucks is certainly going to help. According to the administration, this approximate 10 m.p.g. bump in the combined car/truck average of 25.1 will save an estimated 1.8 billion barrels of oil over the life of the program, and result in a pollution reduction equal to taking 177 million cars off the road.”
The purchase cost of a hybrid is so much higher than other economy cars, such as the Fit and Corolla, that it doesn’t make financial sense to buy it.
Both those cars are considerably smaller than the Prius, and the Corolla loses on economic grounds, anyways, in the calculation I made in 2008 based on $3 gas. (The Fit did win out at that price point, though).
Jack Baruth, the rear legroom difference is substantial, and was the first thing I noticed when I got in our first Prius back in 2004.
For rear-seat passengers, it’s basically a compact in width, but a midsize in legroom. Since few of us ever put 3 people in the back anyways, the width argument isn’t particularly compelloing.
Jack Baruth-I have compared the interior measurements of the current ‘Bu with the ’09 Prius. They are very close on all dimensions.
The new Prius is bigger.
Is the Malibu a compact then?
The Prius is not the biggest midsize, but unless there is a consensus to regard the Malibu, G6 and Aura as compacts I stand by Prius = midsize.
Just sayin’, likewise.
Take care buddy.
Bunter
Menno, you’d be surprised how much EFMs car generate. I have a Gauss meter at home (bought at a science shop for fifty bucks).
I measured cars like Swift, BMW X5, Corolla (and hear reports about Civic) and they all generate EMFs strong enough to send the meter into the alarm mode. But some have weaker EMFs and/or not as far-reaching as others. (I’m talking about low frequency EMFs.) I’m fairly certain than modern cars with EPS have even stronger EMFs. Prius, having a relatively strong electric motor and loads of other electronics, most likely generates so much more. It would be interesting to know how strong and how they map to the cabin space.
I don’t care what car y’all drive. But when I see you on the freeway, just stay…out…of…my…way.
Haha!
Lokkii, China releases slightly more CO2 than the US (they overtook us a year or two ago), which comes out to about one-fifth of our per capita emissions. India hasn’t caught up to the US yet, as far as I know. I’m sure both are worse with several localized forms of pollution.
If a homeowner spends 5K on granite countertops, people say nice countertops!
If a homeowner spends 5K on solar panels, people ask detailed questions about the payback period.
If a car buyer spends 5K extra over the base model on spoilers, leather, premium sound and a remote start people say nice ride.
If a car buyer spends 5K extra over a base model (Corolla) to buy a Prius people ask detailed questions about the payback period.
So why is it that one gets complimented for spending on the extra bling but has vigorously defend spending on efficiency?
Sorry, I agree, as of right now a hybrid car is not supposed to be fun to drive or performance oriented. However, I think as more hybrids come out onto the market, just like every other motorized vehicle in existence, enthusiasts will drive the market.
Heck, with Lamborghini and Fisker Karma creating sports hybrid cars it’s only a matter of time.
@t-truck: It’s because most people are idiots.
It’s like asking someone why they don’t drink. You don’t ask someone why they don’t use mayonnaise, but the former is somehow weird.
@ Lokkii
“Technology will save us”, you say.
Ok, I present to you the Toyota Hybrid drive train.
“I refuse to use it”, you say. Groan.
Are you a fan of Douglas Adam’s Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy? In the books there’s an amazing technology for cloaking a complete spaceship. It relies on everyday centers in the mind of the viewer.
It’s called S.E.P. or Somebody Else’s Problem. It makes the spaceship completely invisible to the viewer because they don’t want to accept it’s there.
@psarhjinian :
The HX bombed because:
a) it takes hours to fill the tank at home
b) CNG filling stations that can do the job quiker are thinner on the ground than diesel
c) it has about as much trunk space as a Solstice
d) it costs as much as the Civic Hybrid
e) it is unrelentingly slow. As in “prepare to get dusted by a Smart CDI” slow.
I like CNG and the Civic, but this car really did suck.
You’re thinking of the Honda Civic GX, the CNG-powered version of the last two generations of the Civic. It’s only sold in California and New York, where there are more CNG stations than in the rest of the country, or something. It doesn’t sell well, but Honda still sells it.
The Civic HX is a different animal. It used a CVT, and was designed to run more efficiently on conventional gasoline. Here’s an Inside Line review of it:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=46526
You’re thinking of the Honda Civic GX
Yes, I was. I consider myself schooled.
t-truck-well stated-I’ve tried to get that concept across a number of times but you put it better. Ya’, why do so many demand an explaination for a Prius purchase.
Paul_y-good thoughts also. I think we see a clue to the reasoning in the insistance, against the evidence, that Prius owners are “smug”.
I suspect that when many people are offended by any form of personal restraint by others (not drinking alcohol as noted) it is not due to any action or implication from the others, but because of their own conscience.
Since dealing with that would require personal responsibility and introspection it is easier to simply fabricate a scenario that they, and their circle, can use to “prove” that the “offender” (be he ever so unaware or concerned with what they do) is really the “bad person”.
See? We’re OK!
Why? ‘Cuz they suck!
Most accusations of “Hate crimes” also seem to fall into this category, IMHO. To often today diagree=hate.
Bunter